Didn't the White Australians ever think of the future of my people? We were destoyed quickly.. They knew what they were doing to my people But the continued thier punishment on us. I am White australian And Murri. and I wish that i could have learnt my language and been brought up around my family but i wasn't. It is a loss to me and millions of other murri fullas around australia. Sorry Day? You think that would just fix everything? No it doesn't. It my show sympathy for my people from the Australians but to be honest I don't see why it should have happened in the first place. I know there is no way we can change the past but i would like to see some government help ibn finding out who we really are and maybe help to try and recover the lost languages of many aboriginal people. I know i am not the only young person out there that feels this way. Many of as a yearning to know who we are and where we from. And losts of things forgotten we want it back !

gundubuldany

People in general don't think about others before themselves. This goes for white, black yellow or any other colour. If the Dutch had of colonized Australia or the Japanese had of got here in the 1940's it is likely Aboriginals would be much much worse of. In New Zealand the Maories destroyed and even cannibalised some of the earlier inhabitants.

The only way to find out who you are is to read the bible. You were made in God's image and like every other person have lost dignity and identity because sins of others as well as your own sin. You will only ever find your true identity when you find peace with your Maker Jesus Christ. You will find in your culture some good things and some very abhorrent things. I hope you find the good and reject the evil and find your destiny in life.

Most people would agree, terrible things have happened in the past. Fortunately, the laws were changed in about 1967. It used to be that an apology was going to fix all the problems, but it didnt really work. Money was also going to fix all the problems, but there is little difference between communities that get heaps of mining royalties and those that dont. Its very romantic to believe that things would be greatly different if the English never colonised the place, and the people would be happily going about their thing. They were about 20 000 years away from inventing the wheel, and had no idea about agriculture or machinery. A very complex issue, step 1 is to not sit around all day whinging about white people and how unfair it all is.

gundubuldany
Ignore runner and his seriously deluded rantings. it was people like him that caused many of the atrocities that happened in what should rightly be called the Aboriginal holocaust of Australia.
I have just finished watching The first Australians on SBS and the thing those white bastards did made me so mad.
I have always admired the restraint shown by our indigenous peoples. If the sort of evil meted out to the first Australians had happened to my ancestors I would be out for blood and retribution on every white person in this country.
All Australians should be taught the ways of the real owners of this land as a matter of course. Aboriginal culture is in many ways so much more superior than our insane culture of greed and exploitation and neverending growth. They managed this land and survived on it for 60 000 years or more. We will be lucky to make 500 years at the rate we are going.

Hi gundubuldany.

I agree that Aboriginal people have been appallingly treated in Australia since 1788, and that injustice and racism persist today. However, my advice to you is to get yourself some post-secondary education, either at a TAFE or a university.

There are many resources available to Indigenous students at those places that can assist, not only in your studies, but also in tracing your heritage.

As mikk said, ignore the ranting of the godbotherers and the thinly disguised racism of those who will admonish you to stop whingeing and assimilate. They are most of the problem, not any part of the solution.

Oh yeah, I forgot... Only Noel Pearson can make any comments on the subject without being called a racist. I might add, out in the communities, folks dont always agree with his thoughts. If you have a look at what burseries and scholarships are available for aboriginal people at uni, and the guaranteed job at the end (affirmative action, doesent matter if you are any good or not), and other incentives on offer... They are certainly trying to encourage participation.
I'd be happy to be wrong on the matter, but is there a vibrant/contented/meaningful/pleasant aboriginal comunity anywhere? Its not racist to point out the same societal problems seem equally apparent in all the communities, but more likely to deliver a positive outcome than the current feel-good exercise.

gundubuldany

I'm probably going to be called a racist for this post but here goes anyway.

Aborigines were never going to be able to keep Australia for themselves. They had an inadequate border protection capability. If the Europeans hadn't conquered Australia it would have been somebody else - most likely the Javanese.

In a way the Aborigines were lucky. Given they were going to be a conquered people come what may it is best to be conquered by people with democratic impulses. If you want to know what life would have been like under the Javanese look at the fate of the natives in West Papua.

http://www.freewestpapua.org/

Here's the truth gundubuldany. Given the technological backwardness of the Aborigines the current situation of Aborigines, grim as it is, is probably the best that was ever going to happen.

Stevenlmeyer speaks the harsh truth,but we the anglo conquerers should not indulge ourselves in too much back slapping.

The Aboriginal culture sees the world from a totally different perspective.They are not consumed with amassing wealth for the purpose of power.They live for the moment.Being hunters and gatherers, they have strong tribal and family bonds.The West on the other hand has sacrificed family for monetary gain and is in serious decay.

Genetically/linguistically we have a complex mix of anglo/aboriginal ancestory but few address the necessity for the aboriginal culture to do more for this newly evloving culture.The Aboriginals need contribute more to justify the wealth they receive.Anglos need to put aside their Hollywood perceptions of beauty and look deeply into what makes us human.

Just to be clear

I dissociate myself from Arjay's post.

The conquered do not owe the conquerors anything.

On the other hand the reality for the Aborigines is that they are a conquered people. They are never going to regain control of this island-continent. There will never again be independent Aboriginal nations.

The good news is that the conquerors are prepared to make a place in their society for the conquered. Aborigines, for their own sakes, ought to grasp the opportunity this affords.

What alternative do they have?

When are you lot going to get over this rubbish.
I have no idea about my ancestors, neither do I care, presumably they were shipped out,in chains, from England for stealing a loaf of bread.

No-one has ever said sorry to me and I would be laughing up a gumtree if they bothered.

But I learnt to read and write, not drink myself into oblivion and live in a house without destroying it.
If we can't be bothered wallowing in self pity why should we care about those that do.
Go to school and learn how to spell, or is that too hard a concept for you.

mikk,
Someone saying "those white bastards" should be just as unacceptable as someone saying "those black bastards".
Or am I free to say "those black bastards" from now on?

It's not surprising that CJ Morgan gives you a free pass to say "those white bastards" and then talks about the "thinly disguised racism of those who will admonish you to stop whingeing and assimilate."

CJ finds thinly disguised 'isms everywhere, except when they are blatantly undisguised and used by his ideological bedfellows against people who disagree with him.

Dear gundubuldany,
(Wai palya),

Firstly allow me to welcome you to this
Forum and Congratulate you on taking
such a courageous step in being so open
and honest with us. It took courage to do
what you did.

I can't even begin to imagine what your
world must be like. I read an article
by Dr Eva Sallis some time ago and she
wrote that the most awful thing is that
Aboriginal Australians live without a
sense of day to day personal safety,
without a sense that they have rights.
The burden of history is such that these
Australians live day to day in an exile
from peace and safety that is unimaginable
to most other Australians.

I also read that in 1788 there were 250
separate Aboriginal languages in this country.
Dr Eva Sallis counted only 23 languages that
had only one living speaker. I tried to imagine
that my child was to be the only person alive
to speak my language. I couldn't do it. It's
the death of a culture - and it's happening without
even a whisper from most of us.

Why can New Zealand be a plural nation? They have
English and Maori languages. We are a plural nation,
we have always been a plural nation, why can't we
have English and Pitjantjatjura, Warlpiri, Arrernte,
Tiwi, and more? The list of Aboriginal languages
is a striking map of loss.

My advice to you is for you to ask for help from
the nearest school, library, or government department
that you can find. Catch a train or bus to the nearest
town if you're in the country. But do something positive
to help yourself. Don't be put off by anyone. It's
your life. Take control of it and do something about
things. I wish you All The Best.

gundubuldany, its taken two centuries but the White Australians have finally assimilated into Murri culture. The men now treat their women as equals, they've come a long way. The hierachies have been dismantled, the slaves freed, the material culture is becoming sustainable and the guns are silent. All that remains is to update the instruments of governance with equal rights parliaments, courts and corporate governance. Murris have survived the white man's way, patriarchy is defeated, Murris rule! Much has been lost but much more will be forthcoming. Now is the recovery, the knowledge, the languages, the values, the community. Keep asking and the answers will arrive. There is no longer any resistance.

Just reading these few posts tells me that the age-old problem of not having a grasp on reality is still very much the case. This is not so much an issue of taking sides but an issue of perpetuating ignorance & perpetuating racial disharmony. It is a pointless & utterly non-productive, no purpose serving dribble by some who just can't let anything heal. They just keep picking at the scab. The descendants of the original inhabitants would not wish to return to their former life style & neither would the descendants of those who were sent here against their will, want to live & experience the hardship of those early days.
Stop dribbling on about things that can't be changed. Stop pretending that there was some kind of Nirvana. There wasn't. Not for the Aboriginal people nor for the european invaders.
This is 2010 ! If you can't come to grips that the whole planet has changed forever then you better start taking Heroin. If you care what happens then do something positive like not voting for incompetent academics at the next federal election. By the way, before anyone starts to ramble on about racism, take a good look in the mirror, you might just see what one looks like at close range.

Excellent point individual, who wants to revive hierarchies, slavery, unsustainable material culture and warfare anyway? Which is why White Australian patriarchy is vanquished. For the victors, in recent decades Murri law has been recognised, remnant languages recorded, values recognised and communities reassembled, and this is just the start of living together the Murri way. The material culture changes but the tradition of equality which begins with women and men remains the same.

gundubuldany, if you're still reading this thread (and I hope you do because my advice at the bottom might be helpful), I'm sorry to say that this thread has proven to be the answer to your question. The reason all this happens and continues to happen is because, as the attitude of most of the people here show, there are a LOT of Australians who simply refuse to actually acknowledge past atrocities (and present wrong-doings) without getting defensive about it or seeing it the wrong way (when the issue comes up, they act like they're being blamed for it instead of try to empathise).

And some, like Runner, are just confused and loathesome enough individuals that feel anything THEY do is not only justified, but righteous.

Anyway, my advice is that there ARE plenty of Aboriginal NGOS whose purpose is to connect Aboriginal Australians to relatives or re-acquaint people to their individual cultures, including websites- some found via state government servers. If I were you this would be the very first thing I'd look into to try and get in touch with my roots.

Its a very complex issue, as evidenced by some interesting posts. Sure everybody reckons they can fix the problems, next week it will still all be the same. I hope your personal stuff all works out, though maybe the humuor/sarcasm/irony/rhetoric wont translate too well in the written form and look like you're being a bit provocative.

I read posts where people are bending over backwards trying to say the currently trendy things about aborigines. The fact is they are human. Some are good, some are not. Maybe if these people spent a day or so in Cairns or somewhere where there's a lot of aborigines, they would realise just how silly it is. Last week, right near the police station in Cairns, there were a few aboriginal guys walking towards me. As they walked, they hassled everybody for money and smokes. 2 guys in front of me actually crossed the road to avoid them, I walked straight between them. I was fearful of getting bashed by them as I dont smoke or give away money. On the other hand, people usually dont say nasty things about the Lebanese up here.

Ah bloke thanks for the thread.
Thanks too for the memory's the dreadful acts memories of a past not one of us lived in.
What do you want now mate?
Do we move on?
Or wallow in past events long gone, do we then get down on our knees and beg forgiveness for Hitlers victims?
For the poor beggars England exported and even killed here?
Maybe we should think about all those raped in Germany at the end of the last world war.
Mankind is awful isn't it.
Bloke my family is growing, a little girl I raised came back last Christmas.
Great Kori husband, great handful of kids, just maybe I have as many in my family as you have in yours.
Noel Person gets a mention, yet show me a better leader a warrior for his people, MINISTER FOR ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS that should be his title.
Look mate, we cried in shame but joy at the sorry speech, I spend countless hours trying to help but lets move on lets ALL try harder.

Thanks to the people that have tried to be supportive. But to those people who are being negative well let me just say something. I am 17teen years old and i go to tafe and i work and I am not a bad person. I do believe in God and go to church. You cant say that murri fullas are the only people with drinking problems and go around hassling people.. that is just a minority of people. Does anyone understand that thousands and thousands of indeginous australians were killed and buried in deep holes on top of one another. We we punished for speaking our own language.. it was a fine bak then and you would pay the price.. And to the people that have said that we are better off being invaded.. wel i think your wrong our people weren't dumb or anything we lived by the land. we didn't destory what God gave.. We embraced it.

Im agreeing with gundubaldany on this one. as a young indigenous person i would also like to know what is happening to our people. i would also like to learn my tribal language and more about my culture. yet in schools they are teaching the languages of different countries such as german japanese etc. and to 'runner' im pretty sure christians catholics etc were the main ones that did the damage. took over every hill with a nice view and built a church on top of it. took us away from our family and made us learn the white mans way of 'civilization'. i dont really see how you've helped us in any way. every time we speak up about an issue thats happening within our community they say we complain too much. you know i jump on google and i type in 'aborignal' and one of the first things it comes up with as a suggestion is 'aboriginal jokes'. i mean do people get that bored they either make up jokes about our people or google them? how low can you get, seriously.

If you are trying to find out were you from i know on queensland archives it dates bak to 1938 or something and it shows where our people were taken from and sent to.. stuff like that..

gundubuldany, have you contacted Link-up?
http://www.link-upqld.org.au/

gundubuldany,

One of the main factors in the loss of age-old traditions is due to the fact that superstition was & still is rife everywhere. This was the anchor for the skilful exploitation by religion.
It is no different in 2010 except that money & status have become the new anchor point. I fully accept that over 230 years many, many indigenous lost their lives in standing up against the newcomers. I also fully accept that many, many indigenous embraced the invader/occupiers' ways & means. Many idigenous suffered, many benefitted. I can not feel what an indigenous feels just like an indigenous can not feel as I do. I have lived more than a generation among indigenous & I can say with certainty that when it comes to gain or benefit, it becomes an "anything is fair in love & war" situation. At times bleating victim pays dividends, at other times it pays to assimilate. Black, white or brindle, everyone becomes an opportunist under one disguise or another. This is the 21st Century, let's make it better than the last three by acknowledging the past but not exploit this past as an excuse nor ignore or dismiss compensation & associated efforts & good will.

You have won me over young fella, good luck to you.
Never ever give in but never not ever judge us by yesterday.
I look after your people in the workplace, even get the training and the job, every time we win I am happy.
Often mate I fail, it leaves a cold hard feeling, to hear one of your people who has had every chance, been high maintenance for a long time, insult those who helped along the way.
Not long ago, not quoting anything that is not a weekly issue, I began helping a man.
He had 4 DUI charges in his life, his workmates for years had hidden him at work.
He smashed the work Ute after work, his mate had taken the keys yet he threatened them and nearly died in the smash.
They lied for him, it did not work.
He was under investigation to be sacked, standard procedure.
He and his wife, it happens often, came into the workplace shouting the mates he hide behind for years are racists who set him up!
White products of unwed parents!
We saved his job, never if he was not Aboriginal, he has not said thanks not said sorry just said see?
You cannot sack me I am Aboriginal!
Both sides can do better must do better but would you young man say we should not talk about this all too common workplace issue?

mikk
>> All Australians should be taught the ways of the real owners of this land as a matter of course. Aboriginal culture is in many ways so much more superior than our insane culture of greed and exploitation. They managed this land and survived on it for 60 000 years or more.<<

Being honest I don't particularly want to learn about tribal aboriginal culture, and do not find it relevant, past the historic significant that it existed. My own cultural background 200 hundred years back also has no real relevance to me. The aboriginal races in Australia are 60,000 years away from their ancestors of 200 years ago, and I merely 200 hundred years from mine, but the culture and lifestyle of 200 years back may as well be alien to me.

You are correct when you said "They managed this land and survived on it for 60 000 years or more". The reason they did not impact the land is because they were a "stone age" culture, the first residents impacted nothing except a few walls in caves with campfire smoke and wall paintings, in all of 60,000 years of habitation.

Tribal culture has no relevance in regard to their 21st century life here and now. Some white fellas kicked my ancestors off their land and that is how my lot got here. Their great great great great grandchildren are still on the loose but I do not hold them accountable for their ancestors. Aboriginals do not want patronizing, as gundubuldany said "Sorry Day? You think that would just fix everything?"

Gundubuldany, Just In 2009/2010 620 million was given to land councils for commercial enterprise speculation, there has been a flow of money to your elders since 1976 and it has all been wasted and stolen. Not dispersed for the good of the community, but just like the Anglo Saxons who administered the funding previously human greed is alive and well, even in the aboriginal community.

If you want to learn your ancient languages just go out and do it, the government can't assist you.

Dear Gundubuldany and Mara,

I've recently re-read the book by historian
Henry Reynolds called - "Why Weren't We Told?:
A Personal Search For the Truth About Our History."
If you haven't read it - you should. Any public or
TAFE library should be able to get a copy for you.

It's a new edition and I can recommend it to
anyone interested in Australia's past or those
who just want to have a better understanding of
contemporary Australia.

The book is written in a clear prose and is very
readable. It covers issues such as native title,
the Mabo and Wik judgements, and the controversy
over the so-called black armband view of history.

It's an important book, at the heart of which,
as the author tells us, "...is the desire to face
up to our history, to embrace the past in all its
aspects, to cease trying to hide the violence,
the dispossession, the deprivation. People now
want to know the truth about the past and to come
to terms with it. They see this as an essential
step along the way towards national maturity."

Reynolds points out," We can know a great deal
about the history of indigenous-settler relations.
But knowing brings burdens which can be shirked by
those living in ignorance. With knowledge the
question is no longer what we know but what we are now
to do, and that is a much harder matter to deal with..."

It will continue to perplex us for many years to come.

All my life I have had blood on my knuckles hurt in my heart and a much lighter wallet in defense of the first Australians.
NEVER tried to hide the dreadful past, from people far different than we are today, please remember we treated our own little better.
If we are to blame everything on yesterday, if we excuse todays Kori's their failures because of events we played no part in we fail our first Australians.
We all can do better.
We all must.
But do we understand the Australian businessmen and bankers plans to employ so many will fail? that we are contributing to its failure?
I know my honesty is seen as bigotry, on both sides, who gets their hands dirty every month helping here.
Wallow in A past we can not change, flog us in the name of long dead people.
Fail to remember those people treated the days criminals, the Irish some times the poor dreadfully.
Pick the bones out of any races history, the English who so badly lost every thing to the Saxons after the invasion.
But focus on today, change what we can and never blame ancient yesterdays for today.
BOTH sides are at fault BOTH sides must contribute to change.

Aboriginal culture.
I question has it existed in the last hundred years in most of this country.
And was it white mans gift flower that took it away or did we force people to give it up.
Is todays Aboriginal focused on the primitive lifestyle his ancestors had or one not unlike ours.
See the culture of American Negro's in todays Aboriginal, is that bad? the dreadlocks?
Or is it absorbing of other cultures just as every nation has seen.
Do we need to say it is wrong return to the scrub?
I had a late night phone call, my young neighbor wanted help.
Covered in blood I cleaned him up drove the long trip to his uncle.
On one of those dreadful missions.
Reported what had taken place uncle said thanks mate.
A drunken group told me at the top of their voice I was white mum and dad never wed, and if I did not leave?
What culture folks?
I would do it again ten thousand times but remember, feeding the idea ALL FAULTS are from us is non productive.

Foxy >> With knowledge the question is no longer what we know but what we are now to do, and that is a much harder matter to deal with..."<<

Foxy, we have tried,...since 1976 anyway, and nothing has worked. Aboriginal health standards in Australia are now to the point that 45% of Aboriginal men and 34% of women die before the age of 45. Child mortality in the wider community is six per thousand, but one in fifty Aboriginal children will die before reaching one year old. Aboriginals are one percent of the national population but are 20% of the jail population. In short a Xmas Island air travelling then boat travelling refugee has a brighter future here than an indigenous citizen.

If we consider the welfare and community prosperity of our indigenous citizens as a business, it has been poorly managed with no accountability. The reason is that it was first managed by public servants whose role is not to generate, but to be the conduit that the funds pass through with no interest in the funds productivity after allocation.

Then the land councils took over. The issues then became the lack of business acumen coupled with local community people immediately put in charge of billions of dollars ongoing. Nepotism and a deficiency in understanding the ongoing worth of making money from money has seen no positive results. Indigenous citizens live more for today than tomorrow, it is the way they are, it is a character trait.

As I mentioned in a previous post, last year alone the gov gave $660 million to aboriginal business ventures, and about the same amount rolls out every year earmarked for aboriginal business speculation. My approach would be to form an indigenous corporation. Bring in a gun CEO with a hands on attitude and track record. Give him a mandate that he can pick 100 execs and managers and the rest of the team must be indigenous. Fifty one percent of the share holding is allocated to the land councils, the other fifty on the ASX.

Foxy,
I am not totally clear on this but from what I have heard from historians by passion rather than career, your good Prof. is a career Historian i.e. his portrayal of history is governed by 1, career 2, keep indigenous on-side for continued support which ensures funding, 3, he can not afford to be contradictory to popular belief 4, has he ever published anything with a focus of the good will by non-indigenous towards indigenous ? I'd like to know it might throw a different light on the man 5, being academic he would merely be an expert rather than someone who knows & can accept reality.
I met one career historian who succeeded in procuring substantial funding from indigenous communities to write their story. A review of one of the books, written by a close fiend of this particular historian was not at all complimentary & pointed out that the historian wrote with a particular political agenda.
It is very disheartening to watch these so-called experts in the media portraying such a filtered view of even the immediate past. The genuine indigenous & non-indigenous get accused of selling out & branded racist.
The real reality is that the whole bandwagon is overloaded with characters of no integrity at the dismay & expense of good people.

Sorry 51/49 re the shares, no edit option on OLO?

My People.. White People

Hmmm...
Sounds racist when you put it that way.

It has been done sonofagun, the cash found to start something and lost stolen or sold by those it was meant to help.
Your, was it you or individual who quoted $600 million?
If shared out between all these folk would still be wasted.
While blaming the past is the answer to both sides not doing it right we move no place.
Do we continue to dig up a past long gone.
Or do we ask why Japan has moved on from those bombs yet we still try to relive history and see only one sides sins.

Dear individual,

All I can say is read the book for yourself
and then make up your own mind.

The book is a moving personal journey of
the author towards as stated on the
back cover - the "realisation that he,
like generations of Australians, grew up with a
distorted and idealised version of the past."

There's an unforgettable encounter in a North
Queensland jail which had a deep effect on me
when reading it. Then there's the author's
friendship with Eddie Mabo. The author worked
for thirty years in Townsville. His primary research
has been the history of Aboriginal-White relations
in Australia. His publications include:

Aborigines and Settlers, Frontier, The Other Side
of the Frontier, The Law of the Land, Dispossession,
With the White People, Fate of a Free People and
An Indelible Stain?

Henry Reynolds is married to Margaret Reynolds, who
was for many years a senator for Queensland. They have
three children.

The book received excellent reviews from The Australian,
The Age, The Bulletin, just to name a few. I bought my
copy from the Parliamentary Bookshop on a visit to
Canberra.

Anyway, as I said - read it for yourself and then
decide.

Foxy,
<<"People now want to know the truth about the past and to come to terms with it.
They see this as an essential step along the way towards national maturity.">>
You and Reynolds should try reading Windschuttle if you want to know the truth.

The Australian,
The Age, The Bulletin, just to name a few.
Foxy,
Why not read some non-left literature to do a cross dissolve of the views then you can reasonably assume you're getting a balanced version.
Anyhow, that's what I do. I also never comment on subjects unless I have read copies of original reports by the people on the ground in those days. It's quite amazing to see the variations over time.

Proxy>> You and Reynolds should try reading Windschuttle if you want to know the truth.<<

As a society we rank people by prosperity, and the indigenous community has always been at the bottom of the ranking. The truth is simple and clear re the Anglo Saxon influence on the aboriginal peoples, a disaster.

I do not hold the Land Councils responsible for blowing billions and billions, nor the aboriginal citizens. I blame the bleeding hearts who gave a people who are only four generations hence, from the last stone age culture in the world, billions of dollars to administer. We pay CEOs and management teams millions to run businesses with a load less working capital than the $650 million that was given to the Land Councils last year, and next year, repeater.

My suggestion was an aboriginal ASX listed corporation. Find a CEO, hire a management team, give them the $650 million, give them terms of reference so they do not do stupid things and see what they can do in regard to ongoing benefit to the indigenous stockholders from that year’s $650 million.

I lost interest in helping aboriginal people in about 1998. It was the year that Palm Island ran out of water.

We, the taxpayer, were paying for a barge, working full time, carting mainland water to the island, but many of the residents were not prepared to help conserve this very expensive water.

At that time I was in the water & energy saving business. We supplied $40,000 worth of solid brass water saving showers, & 2 plumbers were employed to fit them. These were top quality, & great showers, I still have them in my home today.

These plumbers found they spent much time just turning off taps left running in public areas. Removing the taps, & capping the pipes was not enough to stop this waste, as they just removed the cap, or broke them off. The plumbers had to blank them off, underground to stop the waste.

Unfortunately some residents realised the solid brass showers were heavy, & made good fishing sinkers. Within 2 weeks, most of those fitted had been stolen for fishing, & the program was cancelled. Some $200,000 had been wasted, & even more water was used as the people now showered under the open pipe, where the shower had been.

As these people don't value anything that is done for them, I think it's time they recieved no more special consideration, or assistance.

In defense of Palm Island, its not a great example to use of the whole people. Unless you live in Townsville you probably havent heard of Happy Valley, the other aboriginal comunity there. In past times, Palm Island was where all the more difficult people were sent so they couldnt walk back into town. This was a terrible policy for many reasons, including putting a whole lot of different tribes that dont always get along on a small island together, and having cherrypicked all the troublemakers to put there. There are still consequences and problems from all that, but you also cant really send them back to where their relatives lived either. Just keep rebuilding the place, maybe as a research station for indestructible prison building techniques...

Dear Individual,

As a librarian - I've been taught to research
more than one source. And I have done my research
on the topic Sir. I would encourage you to do the
same and read more than just "right-wing" sources.
Read the Henry Reynolds book - accept the challenge,
get past the labels.

Dear Proxy,

Any connection between Windschuttle and Aboriginal
historical reality is purely coincidental.

It is not possible, just cannot be done, to highlight real problems in todays Aboriginals without being slammed.
Usually by people who know little about the subject.
People who not like my family walk across the road to say Gday to those groups others fear.
My back ground is Irish Scottish Welsh, maybe a bit of Pommy in there.
Doubt anyone? that my convict ancestors got it hard?
That history probably has a lot of hardship and lost cultures we know nothing about.
I believe with every instinct, those who want to use this subject as a teddy bear,a pet the underdog makes me feel good thing continually go back to a past that was often evil in evil times, do far more harm than good.
It is time for us all to move on, forget the crutch of whites mans crime.
HIGHLIGHT FAILURES on BOTH sides in the present.
Tell me why kids do not go to school never learn to read, never learn to work.
Tell, please stop hiding it! why CHILDREN are being molested in their own homes in near City community's far from out back.
Bleeding hearts will harm trying to be kind, not wanting to know why shanty towns exist are blindness.
We can we must do better tell me one more story about how actions of others two hundred or two years ago bought us this failure and I will be sick.

Foxy,
thank you for the indirect explanation why some information is so difficult to obtain from libraries.

Mikk wrote:

"All Australians should be taught the ways of the real owners of this land as a matter of course. Aboriginal culture is in many ways so much more superior than our insane culture of greed and exploitation and neverending growth. They managed this land and survived on it for 60 000 years or more…."

To which sonofgloin responded:

"You are correct when you said "They managed this land and survived on it for 60 000 years or more". The reason they did not impact the land is because they were a "stone age" culture, the first residents impacted nothing except a few walls in caves with campfire smoke and wall paintings, in all of 60,000 years of habitation."

You may both be wrong. If a new theory about the ecology of rain forests turns out to be correct the Aborigines may have turned large parts of Australia into a desert.

Quote:

"The theory suggests that past civilisations could have had a much greater impact on global climate than we thought. Australia once had forests but is now largely desert. Gorshkov and Makarieva argue that Aborigines burning coastal forests may have switched the continent from wet to dry by shutting down its biotic pump."

RAINFORESTS MAY PUMP WINDS WORLDWIDE, Fred Pearce, New Scientist, 1 April 2009.

(Despite the date of the article this is not a spoof)

This may also settle the question of whether the Aborigines were responsible for the extinction of Australian megafauna. See:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/features/megafauna/

One school of thought suggests it was climate change, not the Aborigines that killed them off. However the Aborigines MAY have induced the climate change through forest burning.

Since the Aborigines were a pre-literate society there are no records to guide us.

In any case to talk about stone-age societies "managing" the land is ridiculous.

Foxy,
Being a librarian you might be able th shed some light on the following;
Why is when an ordinary member of the public is trying to get information from libraries, there is nearly always a shortage of staff. However when an academic researcher enquires about the very same information it is speedily provided. And, please don't insult anyone by saying this doesn't happen.

Foxy,

Any connection between Windschuttle and Aboriginal
historical reality is scrupulously researched with academic integrity.

Any connection between Reynolds and Aboriginal
historical reality is scrupulously cherry-picked with a black armband.

Windschuttle is a historian.
Reynolds is a relativist,
which is why he appeals to you.

stevenlmeyer>> However the Aborigines MAY have induced the climate change through forest burning.<<

"A major feature of the geological record of Aust is a large peak in charcoal approximately 51,000 years ago, with high values sustained through the last glacial period. This feature has been related to the timing of early human settlement in the Australia". (Kershaw et al. 2006).

Stevenl, my comment about no physical impact in 60,000 years related to the archeological remnants that you would expect a society of 60,000 to leave behind, metal implements, pottery or vessels, stonework, designated burial sites. The only sign of the culture that was here is scratching in stone, cave paintings and the soot stain of mans campfire.

My point in raising it in a previous post was to contrast their society 200 years ago to my forebear’s society 200 years ago. The point to that comparison was that yesterday these people were Stone Age, with all the developed faculties of a Stone Age mind and today they are 21st century. They obviously cannot cope, and they have different values to Europeans (ownership and management of goods and chattels is one).

I have been close to two aboriginal colleagues over the years, both university educated and accredited. Their understanding and the following application to a resolution is excellent from both, but they are working on a different time scale to modern society.

The job can take you away from home for weeks or sometimes for months at a time and to keep in contact we had script pagers, radio, and mobiles. My friends would just go missing, they would go to see someone they knew, or just go to somewhere literally to see what is there. One was worse than the other at going missing, but they always came back, although they did not always finish the task in the time allocated, one got fired and the other now does local work.

These guys are not mission aboriginals, they are savvy cosmopolitan denizens, who really do value things and time differently to the European benchmark of societal expectations.

Dear Individual,

It depends where a person searches for
information. In public libraries there
are reference librarians to help with
inquiries. A shortage of staff does
exist - however, your inquiry will be
attended to by a professional, all you
have to do is ask.

Academic libraries are considered special
libraries and librarians are there to serve
the needs of both students and faculty.

It is now possible to explore the past by
means of a large number of books, articles,
films, novels, songs and paintings.
Many voices have filled out the space once
claimed as "Australia's Great Silence."
We can know a great deal now about the history
of indigenous-settler relations.

As I've stated previously - all you have to do
is go to your regional public library or your
national library - the information is there to
be had.

Dear Proxy,

Tolerance and understanding have broadened out.
Bigotry for most people is in retreat.
Black-armband history is often distressing,
but it does enable us to know and understand the
incubus which burden us all.

When the transplanted genocidal pom first arrived in Oz they were required to either to make a Treaty with the Original Australians or to otherwise make a declaration of war. They did neither, instead classifying the Original Australians as animals under the "Flora and Fauna Act."

Details can be found in the early law books in such places as the so called "Aboriginal Affairs department."

*Mabo* could have resolved the matter but did not, and access to
"The Head of State in Council"
(currently *Lizzie Winza*)

who may well authorise a *Treaty,* has been made more complex.

..

Even after the horrors of WWII the transplanted genocidal pom continued to dehumanise the Original Australians, destroying their families, stealing their children and refusing to count them, and in so doing contravened

"The Genocide Convention Act"

which expressly forbids the transference of children from one group to another.

The right wing extremists, argue that this was done "For their own Good," but this in my view is just one more heinous lie.

..

And now, with the 10 point scam of john howard and his mates who even in this modern era, have been found to have knowingly detained children in conditions that bring about mental harm,

(just ask psychiatrist and Australian of the year)

they refuse to allow the descendants of those families utterly destroyed to return to their lands on the grounds that they cannot demonstrate an ongoing connection.

That in part is what connects the evils of the past
(race science & eugenics)
to the here and now.

..

Of course, much of the land that was stolen has great wealth under it. Which in turn is also in part why so called native title legislation only allows you to perform "traditional purposes."

..

A unique form of land title is your birthright as the original people and you have the choice to participating in a process which will eventually bring that about, but know that you won't get that from the slime of either of Australia's two major parties as things currently are.

...Adam...

Dream On thanks for your post.
I found it bigoted biased and of benefit to the subject.
It reminds us of claims that are lies.
It brands those first settlers in ways even a child can see is wrong.
Remember the England that sent those convicts sent humans to America first as little more than slaves for life.
Flogged its sailors, even hung them.
It cut humans into quarters.
Different times different horrible but true punishments.
They also hung whites for killing these folk.
Look at your quoted ww2.
Lift the lid on millions murdered do the children of these still blame yesterday for today?
Is my great grandfather at fault for me not being able to spell?
I agree foxy we need to know about history.
But it is not the only reason for the present.

Yr most welcome *Belly*

..

*Al Jazerra* reports this morning that *Lizzy Winza* is the red to the tune of 10.4 Million big ones per year. HaHaHa. Hasn't has a pay rise for 10 years or so they reckon.

"We are not amused!"
LOL & ROFL

..

ABC reports today of a new *Original Ozzie* painting that has been discovered dating at or around 40,000 years or so, of an extinct so called mega-fauna bird. That's beautiful isn't it?

..

Posted by PatTheBogan, Thursday, 27 May 2010 3:28:12 PM
" and had no idea about agriculture or machinery "

Actually, some did so called "fire stick farming." In the early accounts of the Swan River invasion there are also reports of winter time underbrush burn offs, though I do not know that such practices extended to vast swathes of habitat destruction. I think that it is unlikely but then again I do not know, and note further that fires lit during favorable conditions can easily get out of control.

..

I must have a look at the book *Foxy Loxy* suggests. Another good one is "For their own good" written by an ex U.W.A. PhD student which elicited many complaints from the "establishment" in W.A. at the time.

A lot of the BlakFellas were keen as mustard to get into the new farming techniques with machine assists but the banks, no doubt with political will behind them, closed them out. You see, land back then was being given away in great swathes, and all one had to do was to maintain it and improve it to the satisfaction of the Act. But in order to do so, one needed machine assists which in turn cost money, which in turn needed to be borrowed and that's where it stopped.

Indeed to read some of the old old Hansards, the BlakFellas were by all accounts most skilled at farming and animal husbandry, especially with regards to culling out the weak and infirmed from the herds to the chagrin of the exporters at the time.

I noticed one person saying that 60 000 years ago the vegetation changed to a fire climax comunity, maybe not worded that way. Research at Lynch's crater on the Atherton tableland has revealed charcoal in the stratigraphic record dating back about 116 000 years. Discussion varies about whether the charcoal is of anthropogenic origin or a climatic indicator.
This long-winded explaination ends with some socio-political speculation and scientific fact.

People often say aborigines have been here for 50 000 years, this is simply the limit of the carbon dating techniques' range. The same way I can say a 44 gallon drum only contains 4 litres because I only have a 4 litre ice-cream container to measure it with.

Then, there is the idea that maybe the fires evidenced in the stratigraphic record were not controlled or intentional. I doubt they arrived with a detailed knowledge of bioregional ecosystems and biodiversity, or the ability to fight fires in ecotone areas.

"Firestick farming" is a recent idea to describe the fact that Australia can and does have bushfires. Of course, you torch a gully full of long grass and kangaroos, and kangaroos come jumping out trying to get away from the fire.

I use "Restbreak farming" at my house. The lemon tree uses nitrogen compounds in my urine to grow new foliage.

DreamOn,
Dream on !