From “The Enigmas of History”
“There are several reasons for our fascination with the world of conspiracies. For one thing we live in an ‘information age’. We are constantly bombarded with news from a wide range of sources, which can be extremely difficult to collate and place within an easily understandable and consistent frame of reference. For many people this results in a feeling of powerlessness, of a constant low-level unease in the face of monumental or even sinister events. A belief in conspiracy theories can provide us with a partial (albeit illusory) empowerment allowing us to feel that we know what is really happening in the world; that, while we may be the pawns of people and forces we cannot control, at least we are not unwitting pawns.” P. 287

There is a discussion thread on olo at this time titled: “Does Israel Control the USA?” The question indicates a conspiratorial turn of mind. It assumes a small country and a group of people might control a much larger country and many more people. Jews have been the subject of many conspiracy theories, and ,if they continue to exist, will probably be the subject of many more.

On this thread proponents of the 9/11 conspiracy theory emerged. They insist they have the truth of the matter.

I am frightened by such people. I am frightened by the possibility that they may enlist others to believe their fantasies with horrible consequences. It has happened before.

I do not believe the expression of their views should be curtailed. There sometimes are actual conspiracies, and we must allow questioning of any account so actual conspiracies will be uncovered.
I have the opinion that the afore mentioned thread and the 9/11 conspiracy theories are paranoid fantasies and not plausible. However, I am posting this to open a discussion on the matter of judging whether assertions are or are not plausible.

Dear David F.,

I'm sorry that you're worried about conspiracy
theories. History is full of them and I guess
always will be. I've never taken them seriously,
perhaps I should. As you pointed out some of them
do turn out to be real. Although I'm reminded of
the old adage, "If at first you don't succeed,
blame a minority!"

In today's world I guess the reason conspiracy
theories exist is because real, hard, factual
investigative reporting has decreased. Most of
the news that we appear to get is what sells.
The National News Stories appear more like
Supermarket Tabloid Journalism. And conspiracy
theories appear to fill the vacuum by stimulating
debate and investigation on topics that major news
outlets ignore. What's plausible? I guess each of
us needs to judge that for ourselves. Although I must
confess that the thread that you refer to I found
totally implausible.

Sam Harris wrote in "The End of Faith." :

"The danger of religious faith is that it
allows otherwise normal human beings to
reap the fruits of madness and consider
them 'holy.' Because each new generation
of children is taught that religious
propositions need not be justified in the way
that all others must, civilization is still
besieged by the armies of the preposterous.
We are, even now, killing ourselves over
ancient literature. Who would have thought
something so tragically absurd could be
possible?"

Richard Dawkins asks:

" By contract, why would anyone go to war for
the sake of an absence of belief?"

The conspiracy theorists I feel have
a void in their lives that they're trying to fill.
And they will go to great lengths to find so called
"facts" that will confirm their theories.
Lunatic asylums used to be full of such people.
I'm not sure if these asylums still exist today.
The internet has filled a space for many of these
people. As we all know!

David... there are much better ways of describing events often called 'conspiracy' theories.

For example. The Italian Mafia is in fact a group of people with a common background/language/race/culture who engage in activities which make them rich and powerful.

This is why it is legitimate to describe them as 'Italian Mafia'

Just so, we have the Tamil Tigers, tied together by the same things.

We could even have a "Jewish Mafia" and if it proves to be the case that there is a network of Jewish people working together (loosely or tightly) for their own benefit.. it would be right to describe them that way.

In none of those cases does it tar the whole race with the same brush.

Not ALL Italians are 'mafia'..not ALL Tamils are LTTE and not ALL Jews are Jewish Mafia.

I have a bit of a theory of a loosely linked set people who share a set of ideas.. we call them 'Political Parties' and they conspire all the time to get power.

See if you can link these people and identify which things (structures/ideologies) connect them ?

George Soros (Democracy Alliance)
Maurice Strong (UN climate change Earth summit Kyoto Accord architect, usually in China these days)
Franco Bernabe (Petroleum China, Tianjin Climate exchange) Vice Chairman of Rothschild Europe.
Al Gore Generation Investments Management PLC

That would be interesting :

I enjoy conspiracy theories and theorists. They are entertaining and all, but most of all I like it that there are people able to question and criticize (though of course usually absurd criticisms). It's an indication of our relative freedom. That's why they don't frighten me.

They also do us a service in nit-picking all sorts of events and information. Maybe that helps keep us a little safer generally. I suspect there is truth to some theories too.

One of the things I still find puzzling though is why people who are theorists distrust their own governments. It's interesting that they rarely (perhaps never) work out all the sneaky manoeuvrings and possibilities - and consider that powers elsewhere might have dunnit.

Anyway, I am not sure but I think it was Pericles who once showed this site. I was in tears of laughter and kept it bookmarked:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

The problem is that the two words "conspiracy" and "theory" are always traditionally put together but may not always be the case.

I have a theory that I may win Lotto one day. If I never buy a ticket, it remains a theory. However, as soon as I buy a ticket it's no longer a theory but a distinct possibility - remote but still a possibility.

All you need is one piece of contrary evidence that doesn't fit the official explanation. That doesn't automatically prove an alternate version but it's where the conspiracy idea gets validated.

The problem I have with things like 911 is that there are still so many unexplained things that remain outside the official version. Many can easily be resolved by officials but for some reason the authorities stonewall so this gives oxygen to the suspicious. In this case the unfortunate(?) release of the Northwoods document provided evidence that Governments are more than capable of conspiracies on a grand scale.

Likewise, there are a multitude of Net sites, most of which seem to be created for deliberate dis-information. Put in all the usual items but add a few crazy links or obvious lies and you automatically discredit everything else.

Nevertheless it will never go away. It's been 40+ years and there is still doubt over the assassination of JFK and there is much more here than one fuzzy piece of movie film.

In my view conspiracy's [ why do we put theory's in?]are becoming conspiracy's.
Maybe they always have been Hitlers Nazi Germany ran a hate the Jews thing based on a book that a manufactured to? get people to hate Jews.
Even now that book, invented and untrue drives whole people to hate them.
Hiding guilt so very often is why conspiracy's start, after a while some of the first inventors need not help it along the very people who complain about lies spread them without knowing.
I too fear conspiracy's ,Joseph Goebbels may not have been the first to invent them, but he used them.
And today we have at any time a thick fog of lies covering the truth.

PYNCHME..

hilarious..I looked it up :)

If you want something more tangable and verifiable.. why not join "Maurice Strong thread.. if you like that kind of thing, a few facts should be of interest.

cheers.

Thanks Al. Yes it's a scream.

I had a quick look at the thread and might drop by. However at the moment I am just zooming about procrastinating instead of getting on with some work I need to get done. When I have more time I'll be able to focus on the some of the conspiracy fun.

For anyone with some time to spare:
Guess who some conspiracy theorists blame for the Tasmanian tragedy (the Port Arthur shootings.

Thanx Pynch .. if you do come..I promise great reward..

but like you, I also need to do a bit of work now... all the best.

David f I'm afraid that 911 is no longer in the realm of conspiracy theory.It is conspiracy fact.If you can disprove the facts on http://www.ae911truth.org/ then I'll pay you many thousands of dollars.Some will offer much more.So place your bets.

Dear Arjay,

Because of previous things you have posted I have no reason to think you have any facts although you may think what you have are facts. Pericles has already examined your 'facts' and found them wanting. The JWs who come to my door also have a 'truth' for me. You simply have no credibility as far as I am concerned.

Let's look at WTC 7 which took 6 yrs to release a seriously flawed report( No plane impacted WTC 7).NIST even admits its own investigation cannot explain these events.WTC 7 ,186 m tall ,it came down in 6.5 sec.Prof David Chandler has the physics to prove that for 2.5 sec it was in absolute freefall,meaning the structure provided absolutely no resistance to gravity.

To bring a building down in it's own footprint in this fashion,it takes co-ordinated energy of extreme precision.

How did all the component parts of this building decide simultaneously,to self destruct without intelligent intervention ?

How much do you want to bet david f?

Arjay, I have no wish to insult you, hurt you or make fun of you.
But you are a victim of a conspiracy.
A conspiracy from folk who use lies as weapons to hide the hate that drove those planes into those buildings.
I have no doubt, none, that you think you are on to some thing.
And not the smallest that you have been both blinded and conned.
Can you consider just for a moment, is it possible? that conspiracy's serve to make money for some and for others, just may be used to take the edges away from a true hate based need to kill westerners.
You may if you wish discard my views but understand yours are extreme and not many share them.

None of my detractors have even attempted to address the facts and mysteries surrounding 911.1200 Architects and Engineers have signed up asking for a new investigation.8000 others on this site also support a new investigation.http://www.ae911truth.org/ We have Prof Neils Harrit and 8 other scientists publishing a peer reviewed paper ,(revealing the use if a military grade explosives), in April 2009 which Govts continue to ignore.

At the very least you all should be demanding an open and thorough investigation.Let's put the deception and lies to rest.Have an international investigation which includes all the evidence.

Dear Belly,

You wrote: "You may if you wish discard my views but understand yours are extreme and not many share them."

The fact that views are extreme and not many share them does not mean the views are false. Truth is not decided by the number of people who share one's views or whether they are extreme.

Dear Arjay,

You wrote: "Let's put the deception and lies to rest. Have an international investigation which includes all the evidence."

You are not going to get an international investigation because an international investigation would include international inspection of the US security apparatus, and the US government will not allow that. Regardless of how thorough an investigation is or how much evidence is included there will be new 'evidence' found and new conspiracy theories generated. You will not put it to rest even if your views are supported.

Why there is a question whether or not conspiracy exists? Someone even try to outcast the people who are asking the questions or see between the lines.
There is no doubt of conspiracy in the human society. Ones you read or hear things that do not match to the actions or results – it is conspiracy. Where someone try to sell you information or product which is harmful, but says:” it is good for you” – it is conspiracy.
The large conspiracy exists where some group of people needs it for some material or other benefits.
Mr David F. wants to call ‘white’ thing which is ‘black’. He wants to tell us for 40 years ‘white, white, white’ repeatedly, but it would never turn the thing white. However his expectations are that many people would get doubts about this. Not all the people, david.

A belief in conspiracy theories can provide us with a partial (albeit illusory) empowerment allowing us to feel that we know what is really happening in the world; that, while we may be the pawns of people and forces we cannot control, at least we are not **unwitting** pawns.
--

IMHO the opposite is the problem, ie the great blob of J Does in America [and so of course in Oz too] who question nothing at all, for indeed that is what such government need to get their agendas done.

Hitler knew that when he wrote:

"It is a great fortune for governments that the people do not think"

What scares me most is every one of my own CTs has turned out to be valid, and as for 9/11, one needs to go back to Oklohoma gig to understand the full plan, ie the title of the book by Stephen Jones [attorney for McVeigh] "Others Unknown", but you need to get first edition as Jones too was bought off once the whole deal blew up [npi] in 2001

The fact that conspiracy theories exist is a positive testament ot free speech and it is good that there are people who question and don't accept all the guff that is fed to us. It usually takes a whistleblower or access to previously banned documents (under FOI) for the truth to be revealed in some cases.

For example, over the years there has been much evidence late presented to prove the CIA interferred with many economies, including either supporting or helping to depose 'enemies' of American business interests, regardless of ideology or human rights records.

It is good to keep an open mind however there is a difference between what is possible (which is anything) and what is probable or likely. Often those spouting the conspiracy theory ignore all the evidence against their conclusions while embracing all that which seems to support it no matter how dodgy the source.

I was not a supporter of John Howard but I am sure he did not orchestrate the Port Arthur massacre, just so he could introduce restrictions on gun ownership. These sorts of conspiracies verge on the ridiculous.

I am sorry that conspiracy theorists cause you distress, davidf.

My own view is that they are relatively harmless.

Yes, I know they spout off a whole lot of paranoid stuff, and that can be very confronting sometimes, especially if you find yourself as a target of that particular theory's hate. But for the theorist - here, at least - it is more likely to be a kind of vicarious association, rather than a full-blown "commitment to action".

There are of course some who make a full-time career out of it - I would imagine that there are a fair few 9/11 fantasists who are laughing all the way to the bank - but most are simply using it as a form of recreation. A means to bring some form of excitement and challenge into their lives.

The lot we have here on OLO appear to be in the latter category.

Their predominant mode seems to be self-promotion. The controversial nature of their "challenges to Authority" no doubt makes them feel just a little more important than they would see themselves to be, sans conspiracy.

The stock-in-trade of the conspiracy theorist is to exaggerate the power of "the Man", to a point where literally nothing is impossible. They have infinite resources, and command total loyalty from those "inside". Once convinced that these people exists, it is easy to imagine that a) they have organized themselves, b) that their aim is world domination and c) that everything that happens in the world is actually a manifestation of these folk at work.

The fact that there is no evidence to support this is, of course, convincing evidence to them, that it has been covered up.

So don't worry too much about them. They are more a modern social phenomenon than a threat.

To anyone, that is, but themselves.

As you point out, denying them the platform from which to expound their "theories" is not going to stop them. We should keep them out in the open where we can see them, and expose their ideas to as much daylight as possible.

So don't worry too much about them. They are more a modern social phenomenon than a threat.

To anyone, that is, but themselves.

As you point out, denying them the platform from which to expound their "theories" is not going to stop them. We should keep them out in the open where we can see them, and expose their ideas to as much daylight as possible.

--

with respect IMHO you are talking to a good old soap box spruker rather than a true CTheorist, who tend to keep their ideas to themselves unless asked, AND their theories are based on "logic as to fact" rather than hearay "evidence"

The big difference between myself and the so called tinfoil A grade conspiracy theorists,is that I've made the effort to meet professionals like Professor Steven Jones a well repected physicist,who knows the reality.Also the Australian Dr Frank Legge ( just google journal of 911 studies) who was on Prof Neils Harrit's team positively proving the existance of nano thermite in all the dust and debris of WTC buildings.I also met the founder if Architects and Engineers for 911 truth Richard Gage.There were many professionals at the two day international conference held in Sydney in Nov last year.

Thanks to the censorship of our media ,there were only 250 in the audience.In New Zealand where it went to the media,it was booked out with 600 turning up.They are all people of high intellect and integrity.

Aside from this,anyone with half a brain and knowledege of building structures knows that WTC 7 the third building which no plane impacted, was a controlled demolition.The evidence is sound and unambigious.

If one building was wired for controlled demolition,then so were the others.So place your bets.I spoke to the aeronautical engineer John Bursill recently and he still is offering $100,000.00 for anyone who can disprove the science.Why are there no takers?

I'm sure we've had this conversation before, Arjay.

>>So place your bets.I spoke to the aeronautical engineer John Bursill recently and he still is offering $100,000.00 for anyone who can disprove the science.Why are there no takers?<<

The reason there are no takers is simply that the "offer" lacks a few details.

The most obvious being not only who decides what constitutes disproof, but what exactly needs to be disproved.

If it is going to be just another situation where one side says "those puffs of smoke prove there were explosives", and the other says "they're just puffs of smoke", we are not going to get much further.

So by all means point us to the web site where this bet may be placed. If it is on the level, I'll be willing to take a punt. Along with many others, I suspect.

I also recall you were putting up some money yourself, Arjay.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3509#83997

What happened to that?

OK.Pericles start debunking the the science of freefall of WTC 7 postulated by Prof David Chandler. http://ae911truth.org/

KYOTO IS MARXISM IN DRAG.....

Yep.. In my view. Call it a conspiracy of the UN or of powerful figures connected to it (including MAURICE STRONG who designed "kyoto")

Let's look at what Marxism is about (in short) "Income redistribution"

FROM the Wealthy TO the poor...by legislation.

Abolition of private property and much much more.

KYOTO is brainchild of Strong, and the main 'instruments' include

a) Carbon TRADING (which makes STRONG an even richer capitalist than he already is.. he is a director of the CCX .. a ten trillion dollar industry)

b) The Clean Development Mechanism (CDM), defined in Article 12 of the Protocol, allows a country with an emission-reduction or emission-limitation commitment under the Kyoto Protocol (Annex B Party) to implement an emission-reduction project in DEVELOPING countries. Such projects can earn saleable certified emission reduction (CER) credits, each equivalent to one tonne of CO2, which can be counted towards meeting Kyoto targets.

Does it occur to any of you Einstiens out there, that if WE are the polluters.. we should be focusing our 'offset' activity in OUR backyard for OUR benefit (and by default, the worlds)

DEVELOPING countries is STRONGs socialism coming through.

Remember this bloke is a "CROOK" like Nixon! Insider trader.. sharleton.. opportunist and wealth creator for left wing causes..mainly HIS.

I hope the penny is dropping now about why I started a thread on STRONG.

I can't wait for the utterly deluded Greenies to explain how STRONG being a director of the multi billion dollar making CCX is in fact "out of the sincerity of his heart, and for the well being of the world"..while at the same time having a track record of promoting causes he has SHARES IN...and then when things look bad SELLING them for HUGE profits as an inside trader or is it 'traitor'?

The documentation for the law suit which followed is on the Maurice Strong thread.

"Where does a wise man hide a leaf? In the forest. But what does he do if there is no forest?"
"Well, well," cried Flambeau irritably, "what does he do?"
"He grows a forest to hide it in," said the priest in an obscure voice. " (The Innocence of Father Brown by Gilbert Keith Chesterton)

Where does a wise man hide the truth (an initial conspiracy theory might contain that he does not want to be known). In a forest of conspiracy theories. But what if there is no such forest? … He grows such a forest (of many more and more absurd variations of the initial conspiracy theory) to hide it in.

Conspiracy theories, like addictive drugs, have their producers, dealers and consumers. Only the latter are always silly.

KRUDD and CAP and TRADE !

Why was it that one of the FIRST things Krudd did was to SIGN UP for Kyoto ?

OoooooK..LETS look at the potential for MONEY making...and WHO it might benefit!

COMPANY NAMED "ENVEX" in NSW.. is a carbon trading mob.. and.. the CEO is...wait for it..none other than..BOB CARR ! Ex Premier, Labour man.

Hmmmm..... I want to have a close look at the SHARE REGISTER of that company and I'd love to know who has promised what to who..(donations to the Labor party ?)

But sure as day follows night, Krudd signing us up to Kyoto has given us

MARXISM (From him who HAS according to his ability.. to him who has not..according to his need)

LABOUR LICENCE TO PRINT MONEY. (Envex)

Of course...it is mere supposition to suggest that Envex is actually filled with left wing/labor 'connections' (aside from Carr) who are being rewarded for services done to 2b done.

I'm suspecting that Malcolm TURNBULL might also be a shareholder, but have not seen the share register yet. That would explain why he was so urgent with "We MUST have a sensible cap and trade policy"

WHY THE HELL do we need to 'TRADE' this stuff ?
If CO2 is a problem....SIMPLE solution.. tax the polluters and reward the solar panel installers in OUR country.
We sure as hell don't need the GREENS 132 page 'Climate' bill.
or their crimmo mate Strong's Kyoto/Marxism/Income redistribution/Global Governance rubbish.

"The big difference between myself and the so called tinfoil A grade conspiracy theorists,is that I've made the effort to meet professionals like Professor Steven Jones a well repected physicist,who knows the reality."

Arjay, I have little doubt, based even on Fahrenheit 9/11, that the more one looks specifically at 9/11 evidence the smellier it gets.

But have you as one such zealot looked at the actual court evidence from Oklohoma case via Others Unknown, where a cat named as bin Laden was up to his neck in it but THE WHOLE SYSTEM refused to allow any evidence that proved anyone but McVeigh "dun it".

does not take a genius to figure Murah building was the pre 9/11 warm up, concluding airplanes were way to go.

Just beats me CTs, like you, for 9/11 never make job easier by joining the two

Well done, Boazy. You've moved your delusional conspiracy blather over here where it belongs. Good chap.

Look at Boaz! Look at Boaz!

Don't change the subject, Arjay

>>OK.Pericles start debunking the the science of freefall of WTC 7 postulated by Prof David Chandler<<

We're talking money here, remember?

>>So place your bets.I spoke to the aeronautical engineer John Bursill recently and he still is offering $100,000.00 for anyone who can disprove the science.Why are there no takers?<<

That's some serious money, right there.

And also your own contribution.

>>I'm offering $20,000 even bet and John (an aeronautical engineer) is offering $100,000 even bet.We will take offers to match your budget.<<

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3509#83997

Remember that?

It was your initiative to offer these amounts, remember, completely unsolicitated. I realize that it is simply a means of providing spurious credibility to your story, but I think you owe it to the forum to either put up, or shut up about it.

Deal?

David I am afraid I am not prepared to change my view, some conspiracy's are lies.
Yes investigative journalism and such is Worth while, even if entrapment such as the recent Royal family one takes place.
But conspiracy's are much more than funny or divisive, they can be a cover up a blanket over the truth.
Do we believe Hitler did not die at the end of the war? that the CIA killed Kennedy?
That America never landed on the moon?
That motors can run on water but it has been hidden, that ETs are known but hushed up, that fear our world would not be able to handle the news?
Well if we get a whistle blowers section, a place we can publish and not be traced[ ocne a whistle blower is enough]
I could show how government department fraud is hidden by a manufactured conspiracy theory that is in existance so the truth is never going to be found.

Dear Belly,

I didn't take issue with your view that some conspiracies are lies.

I took issue with the idea of discrediting a view simply because it is extreme or that of a minority.

That would have discredited Einstein's important theories in 1905.

Divorce Dr.As far as Martin Briant, Timothy McVeigh goes there is not enough hard evidence.Even the Bali Bombings do have suspicious events.eg The second bomb which killed the most,according to an ex-president of Indonesia,was not theirs.It apparently it was C4 military grade bomb.

ae 911 truth will only pursue clear and umabigious evidence.As you have said,the more you dig the smellier it gets.

Pericles,define the parameters of debunking you wish to pursue.It must include the physics of free fall,the nano thermite paper by Prof Heils Harrit and his team.No straw man debates Pericles.

Pynchme: << For anyone with some time to spare:
Guess who some conspiracy theorists blame for the Tasmanian tragedy (the Port Arthur shootings. >>

Maurice Strong?

:D

You seem to be missing an important aspect of this deal, Arjay.

>>Pericles,define the parameters of debunking you wish to pursue.It must include the physics of free fall,the nano thermite paper by Prof Heils Harrit and his team.No straw man debates Pericles.<<

When you place your $20,000 on the table as a bet, you are the person to define what the bet consists of. If we each plonk down $20,000 on the outcome of the State of Origin, we will first need to agree who gets the money if i) Queensland win, ii) NSW win and iii) the match is drawn.

It's the same here.

If you are betting $20,000 on my inability to discredit the "science" behind your madcap 9/11 imaginings, you need to define, at the very least, the form of proof that you require.

And since all of your theories are pure conjecture - which is of course the essence and lifeblood of a conspiracy theory - it is clear that you have already rejected the existing proofs.

So, come clean, for once.

There is no $20,000, is there?

There are no proof statements that you would accept, are there?

By definition, the entire exercise is pure self-indulgence on your part.

As for John Bursill - is he aware that you are putting his money on the table with such self-righteous abandon?

I somehow doubt it.

Drop it. You're just giving conspiracy theory a bad name.

And making an idiot of yourself at the same time.

Sorry, did I say that last bit out loud?

Timothy McVeigh goes there is not enough hard evidence
--

other way around, there was no evidence Mc Veigh DID it, so in the end prosecution relied on the old Napalm Girl gig [now there's a CT for you] of "baby killers" to convince jury.

all I can say is read the book if you claim to be a CT, but in fact that is not my defn of CT. IMHO what you are doing is what used to be called "a student of the Viet War [etc etc]".

And I am not inferring disrespect. You are simply "visiting" all the facts of experts, whereas to me a CT MUST be based on a theory, eg things that are just too far fetched, stupid, unrelated, defying physics that only an Umurikan would swallow it, plus there needs to be a theory as to WHY J Doe is being ASKED to swallow it.

to me a CT is exactly same as presenting a court case - the facts [as you believe them] are in affidavit, then you tie all that together with a submission

Pericles start debunking.
eg WTC 7 collapsed at absolute freefall for 2.5 sec because;

A. All the components in the building communicated with each other and underwent spontaneous nano thermite combustion.

B.The building was so poorly built that it had absolutely no structural integrity but alas stayed up for decades prior this event.

C.No concrete steel re-inforced high rise have ever collapsed due to fire since or before 911,but God suspended the laws of physics on this day to allow it to happen.

D.Building 7 never existed.It was an elaborate Truther conspiracy to
blame it on the CIA/MOSSAD.

E. I got this one from an engineer.The WTC was made up of iconic buildings and so the Govt had them wired with explosives, just in case of a terrorist attack,so they could be brought down safely.

F. What do you think Pericles?

C'mon Arjay. Start getting real.

>>F. What do you think Pericles?<<

I think you are trying to backtrack on your "bet", that's what I think.

There's no shame in that. But you have to be straight with us, and do it properly.

>>So place your bets.I spoke to the aeronautical engineer John Bursill recently and he still is offering $100,000.00 for anyone who can disprove the science.Why are there no takers?<<

For one, your credibility is so low, that I even doubt that John Bursill knows who you are, let alone entrusts you with the allocation of large chunks of his money. His "bet" doesn't seem to exist anywhere except in your posts, either.

And while I am about it, there's no need for the ".00" at the end of $100,000

When you get to count that lot, you don't fret too much about the cents.

Oh, and you need to specifically backtrack on this one too.

>>I'm offering $20,000 even bet and John (an aeronautical engineer) is offering $100,000 even bet.We will take offers to match your budget.<<

All that you need to say is along the lines of "I hereby withdraw my previous attempts to inject spurious credibility into the discussion by offering pretend bets. Just put it down to my innate braggadocio, and we'll leave it at that".

It's OK, we won't think any the less of you for the confession. In fact, I for one would be impressed. After all, it takes courage.

Go on.

You can do it.

Arjay now you question Bali?
You need desperately to get a hand hold on reality.
On form,you are just not making sense.
You want us to believe America conspired with those terrorists willing to die,to kill all on board 2 planes.
And those in the buildings, to? what arjay?
Sorry but you stump around facts to tell tall storys that only you can conceive of.

Conspiracy theories are only that until they are proven (the use of the term 'theory' might be a misnomer - maybe a hypothesis is better).

Malcolm Fraser and others have said that UK and US would have known that Iraq did not possess WMDs and MF stated on Q&A the other night that Australia should have known. This supports whistleblower Andrew Wilkie's account.

Some conspiracy theories or observations certainly have more validity than others.

Belly,I'm just repeating what some have said about Bali.The Evidence is just circumstancial,so there is no point in arguing hypotheticals.

911 is different.We have hard scientific evidence,backed up by witnesses,money trails,share market fore knowledege,behavioural anomolies from people like George Bush,Larry Silverstein.On the eve of 911 $ 2.4 trillion goes missing from the Military budget,reported by Donald Rumsfeld.The list is endless.Just do a bit research yourself.

Arjay I know we are not told every thing governments do.
Even if Julie Bishop thinks we should be.
But the conspiracy, I have no doubt, is casting doubt on who was behind Bali and 9/11.
I have no doubt, none, that governments kill inventions like the electric car, because it threatens wealth and power in the oil industry, but will not swallow America murdering it own like that.
Conspiracy's exist, in every day life but not on this scale.
A rat bag newspaper placed in my letter box by a workmate who was further right that right to annoy me, had an Australian flag on the front and was so full of junk it made me laugh.
He believed every word one story I remember had hand draw space ships and a plan of the black side of Mars.
A story said Hitler and his Nazis lived there still conspiracy's like that? just have to grin bloke.

Pericles,Define the points or parameters you wish to debunk.We are not going to get caught up in a game of semantics.The points of contention must first of be clearly delineated.It is clear and simple .Go to http://ae911truth.org/ and choose 6 salient points of contention.Nothing could be more simple.

You still don't get it, Arjay.

>>Pericles,Define the points or parameters you wish to debunk.We are not going to get caught up in a game of semantics<<

Who is making the bet here? I thought it was you/John Bursill. But now you want it to be me.

Let me try again to get through to you.

Explain to me exactly how I will be able to tell whether or not I have won.

Just waving your arms around saying "debunk this" doesn't wash. Be specific.

If you can't do that, then you are simply windbagging.

Pericles go to the http://ae911truth.org/ and pick 6 salient points of contention and debunk them.Nothing could be more simple.

You still don't get it, Arjay.

>>Pericles go to the http://ae911truth.org/ and pick 6 salient points of contention and debunk them.Nothing could be more simple.<<

Who is making the bet here? I thought it was you/John Bursill. But now you want it to be me.

Let me try again to get through to you.

Explain to me exactly how I will be able to tell whether or not I have won.

Just waving your arms around saying "debunk this" doesn't wash. Be specific.

If you can't do that, then you are simply windbagging.

One feature of conspiracy theories is that they add handy ‘villains’. Pakistan adds India to the US and Israel.

Conspiracy theories are more likely to express fear and hate than reality.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/world/asia/26pstan.html

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Americans may think that the failed Times Square bomb was planted by a man named Faisal Shahzad. But the view in the Supreme Court Bar Association here in Pakistan’s capital is that the culprit was an American “think tank.”

<SKIP>

“You must know, you are from America,” he said smiling. “My advice for the American nation is, get free of these think tanks.”

Conspiracy theory is a national sport in Pakistan, where the main players — the United States, India and Israel — change positions depending on the ebb and flow of history. Since 2001, the United States has taken center stage, looming so large in Pakistan’s collective imagination that it sometimes seems to be responsible for everything that goes wrong here.

“When the water stops running from the tap, people blame America,” said Shaista Sirajuddin, an English professor in Lahore.

<SKIP>

Go to the URL for the entire article.

Port Arthur conspiracy:

Just thought I'd drop by to share this on the whodunnit -

http://www.nickmaine.info/Documents/who_ordered_port_arthur_massacre.htm