I just heard on the news that Spain is cutting back Public service pays & public funded Super contribution.
Australia, as we all know has an insanely huge Public Service of which by my guess only about 30 % are doing anything actual productive.
Many Public Servants I deal with contribute less to this country than most genuine handicapped.
How much should a senior ranking Public Servant be paid ? Let's hear it !

How much should anyone be paid?

Why pick on senior public servants?

Why not question the earnings of, say, TV morning show hosts, whose life is spent urging dimwits to become even dimmer?

Or sports people whose contribution to life is to show how stupid people can earn a squillion doing not-too-much?

Or real estate agents, or tax accountants, or barristers, or specialist doctors?

Why should any of them earn a million $$$ a year.

Why are CEOs of major public companies not the target of your enquiry?

Do they contribute anything worthwhile to the world?

Did the BP chief save us from oil pollution in the Gulf?

Very few of us are engaged in 'worthwhile' activities.... but what is a 'worthwhile' activity anyway?

Why does my garbo earn less than my doctor when both are engaged in vital public health matters?

Why do journalists on commercial TV and tabloid papers get paid at all?

Shouldn't MPs be forced to pay to work for us?

If you are an 'individual', as you hint at, I doubt you'd last too long on your own, without a public sector to subsidise whatever you do in life.

TBC: << Why pick on senior public servants? >>

Because individual has an obsessive hatred for public servants. My guess is that's because he works under their direction.

Most free enterprise systems work on the principle of supply and demand, so salaries tend to equate with that principle. Unfortunately the public service is not always controlled by the same probity.

Blue Cross,
seeing that you "don't get it" I'll explain. TV hosts etc. get paid largely by private enterprise. Public Servants like CJ morgan just make silly-nasty remarks & don't appear to contribute anything unless it's opportunistic denial of reality.
Blue Cross, do you think it fair that someone who always has to "get approval from above" to cost us taxpayers up to 1/2 million $ a year ? The cop & ambo who put their life on the line get a fraction of what the Dr & Jugde receive.
The hospital cleaner gets nothing in comparison to the funding to artists who aren't good enough to sell their work. The list is long, nearly as long as CJ Morgans bandwagon.

individual, I'm not a public servant and never have been. As I recall, you're paid by the taxpayer.

If you're so resentful that your superiors get paid more than you do, why don't you go and work in private enterprise? Shouldn't you be working right now, instead of griping about your bosses on the Internet?

Urr, you don't 'get it' indy...

TV hosts are paid by lumbering their excessive and inexcusable existence onto the cost of 'product' bought by the dimwits who watch them, and others who do not, ever.

But of course, the TV stations only exist because they are regulated by public servants. They wouldn't last two minutes in a 'free market' without state protection, any more than the ABC would without direct public funding, of course.

Most workplaces run on a heirachy, that's why they can be so poorly run.

But then again, someone has to take decisions, and I doubt that Rudd would let his junior admin officer write the DFAT policy, although he clearly does let the Australian Christian Lobby write a lot of ALP policy these days.

Yes, the cop and Dr. analogy you use is an echo of my garbo and Dr. one.

Society puts different values on jobs, we agree.

But you have not explained why you single out higher level public servants, when so many of us could so easily be questioned about our view that we have a 'right' to be paid x, while others are called bludgers and get SFA.

We could set the trades rate as the 100% figure, as was attempted years ago, and have people defined as 'more' and 'less' than a tradie and paid in incremental % above and below that rate.

Lets notionally pay the tradie $100k a year, for a 38 hr 5 day week, and work up and down from that basis.

How much for a gormless TV host/or 'weather girl'?

How much for a base grade admin worker in DFAT?

How much for a PM?

How much for a boofhead that plays League?

TBC and CJ have pretty much said it all in response to this thread.

If we were all paid our worth - defined by what we contribute then nurses, aged care workers, teachers, researchers, cleaners, garbage men are pretty low paid.

But how does one define worth?

The problem does not start and end with pay rates, more there are too many layers of government and too many senior servants at the expense of those delivering the services.

A fairly new initiative was to pay senior public servants bonuses for meeting efficiency dividends,for innovation or successful change management.

Sounds good in theory, other than the fact that public servants should not be paid bonuses IMO just for doing their job properly. The problem with these bonuses is that often wheels are reinvented over and over to ensure 'innovation' is reflected in their areas, when often the constant changes cause disruption and many times the end result is to go back to the way that actually 'worked'.

I have seen this in extremes a couple of times in my APS life. The other is the reduction of staff to meet new budget targets which creates greater inefficiency but is defined as efficiency purely in terms of money savings. The fact that the services no longer deliver as planned to those who pay taxes for those services is not considered in this equation.

The funniest situation was during a meeting one day when the newish manager keen to prove his worth, in the midst of constant changes to processes, cuts to staff and growing delays and backlogs, announced that the best way to do X was to do blah blah. We all sat stunned as he talked about his 'new initiative' as though he had just thought of it when the process was exactly the same as the original one we used prior to his changes. There is nothing wrong with change if it produces better results but not when it is based on intangible objectives in pursuit of bonuses, or to receive kudos when it is not deserved.

CJ Morgan,
I don't know about you but I'm starting to get embarrassed by this sillyness.
Yes I am employed by taxpayers & I am pulling my weight. You say i should get into private employment ? No problem, just tell your Labour mates to lift the restrictions on private enterprise in remote areas & I'll be on my way. Also tell your mates in the EPA to allow people to make a living.
Also, I'm not griping at my bosses. I'm griping at higher ranking collegues. You say you're not a Public Servant ? C'mon, how else could you afford a computer or are you in an internet cafe. as for me being not at work, well, you ever heard of hurting oneself at work & having a few days off. Maybe, just maybe you may have heard once that some people have actually finished work by the time you wake up & start dreaming.

individual, you ought to be embarrassed. So much public whingeing is definitely not a good look.

So you're having a sickie due to an injury at work? Given the size of the chip you're lugging around on your shoulder, that's hardly surprising.

BTW - computer's aren't very expensive these days. Even a small businessman like me can afford one.

Hi Individual

In case you did not know CJ in previous posts declared that he was a university lecturer which I assume was also paid for by the public purse. It also explains his leftist ideologies. No doubt his superannuation from uni days is helping him enjoy life and good luck to him.

Thank you runner, you've just confirmed what I have always suspected. Makes me feel better to know that I'm dealing with what I thought was dealing with. cheers.

Runner... there are no 'leftists' in universities.

Universities are pits of despair, of rightwing corporatists engaged in career building only.

Teaching has fallen by the wayside as has any vague hint of 'ideology' such as you fear.

Students with no aptitude get credits, distinctions and high distinctions because no one can fail, because then the business would fail, and that is what university is all about today, business, not education.

Research is not done anymore, within the Arts at least.

The one and only ideology present is the dominant one in society, that of the market, the consumer, the 'test', the presentation of image, the illusion of 'education' has triumphed.

The dangerous ideas wrung from those who did 'book learning' will fade away in a very short time.

The Quads will fill with eager young things ready to start the day with a prayer.

Summer has returned Runner, smell the daisy in the meadow, drink the Pimms and cucumber mix, punt your way to heaven in your boater and striped blazer. God has returned to university, and we are back in Oxford, in 1248.

Would you like to go back even further, like individual does, when peasants got paid nothing but worked all their days til they dropped?

You have nothing to fear, but for the clods uni's turn out today who will have no inkling of how to think creatively.

You must be pleased to know this, and that the slots are rapidly filling with academics who believe in 'healing rooms' rather than medicine.

What's this mean? "...which I assume was also paid for by the public purse. It also explains his leftist ideologies".

The churches eke out their living from the public purse too Runner, bludging on tax payers and not paying their way, but none of them own leftwing leanings, do they?

You cannot connect public funding to leftwing surely, otherwise Howard wouldn't have subbed his brother's bankrupt firm out with all that public money, and we wouldn't be talking about assisting the miners with a generous public subsidy just so they can keep going would we?

What an excellent point The Blue Cross makes when he says

"The churches eke out their living from the public purse too Runner, bludging on tax payers and not paying their way".

I wonder how many religious devotee's would continue to harbour an interest in these religious businesses, if they were no longer Tax exempt?.

If you were looking at the approach in Spain in basic view Individual, you could say that the public servant's responsible for Govt financial meltdown should pay for their shortcomings now.

But realistically their is probably more to it than just that

The Blue Cross

Next you will be telling me that most uni lecturers are going to vote Liberal at the next election.

You write

'Students with no aptitude get credits, distinctions and high distinctions because no one can fail, '

Who is it opposing the recent tests held in schools? It has always been the left that has dumbed everything down to the lowest level. Just look at their gw fantasies that they insist are scientific.

Try walking around the ANU with a shirt supporting Tony Abbot and you are likely to be spat upon. You really are a bit delusional.

I am very pleased to hear that people might spit on an Abbott T shirt at ANU.

All is not lost after all... but would they also spit on a Rudd-Gillard T shirt?

One hopes so.

Umm... teachers unions are nest of rightwing vipers. They represent some of the most reactionary middleclass people around, outside of the forces anyway.

But they object to the tests, as do many other people, because the tests are a waste of time, and money.

Even Dr. Kevin Donnelly can see that now, although he is just as likely to have changed his mind because Howard is not doing it, Gillard is, since the evidence for the nonsense that the tests are has existed for a long time.

As for 'dumbing things down to the lowest level', excuse me, but really!

There can be nothing so simple as 'blind faith', where absolutely no thinking whatsoever is required.

Anyway, you can't have it both ways.... if Gillard is part of a left wing government, how come she is forcing these tests on leftwing teachers?

They can't both be leftwing can they? (in fact, they are both showing broad rightwing signs, particularly Gillard).

I truly believe that a wage & benefit freeze on the public payroll will be a far better stimulus than the stimulus package. Add to that non-miliary National service & you have the foundation of a strong economic community. Unless the public payroll gets more aligned with the private sector payroll you'll never get even close to a sustainable economy. As every new tyre needs balancing to prevent wobbling so does the economy. Cutting wages serves no purpose whereas freezing them does. No-one is suggesting that the Public Service is not part of the economic make up of a Nation but I believe Public Servants need to come to understand that there handsome benefits come from those who work for less. This isn't a sustainable economic foundation at all.

Individual...since it seems you are a public servant, why not volunteer yourself for a wage freeze?

If that is not possible, then how about filling out a tithe form to the St. James Ethics Centre for, say, about $100 a month, to reduce your rising income just a little bit?

As I understand the flow of monies, higher wages all get spent, and go to 'small business' as well as big ones like Hardly Normal and Woolies, feeding the consumer based economy we 'enjoy'.

Any break on that will close the economy down.

Yes, a pyramid scheme writ large it may be, but that's what we all support here by insisting we live as we do.

The slave army you propose is typical of rightwing non-thinking. Presumably you would have every person doing this, without exception at all?

Two years of people doing not very much, and creating a massive cost as an entire army of managers and supervisors are created, doing nothing useful but shouting at people who resent being a slave-to-stupidity.

Why don't you read a little bit about Mussolini, and the fascist state he built up, one that many people here wanted to re-create, like Santamaria, and before him there is a taste of it in DH Lawrences book Kangaroo, and the goons that cut the harbour bridge ribbon.

I suspect you will not be offering yourself for slavery, and will resent reducing your income as I have suggested.

There are quite reasonable steps that might be taken in public service employment, maybe ridding us of the political advisors that hang around all political parties, but mostly I fear it will involve employing more people, not less.

Ian Hickey spoke on 'Fran' yesterday, telling us all how more staff are needed in mental health, and we clearly need more dentists to fix Australia's Pommy Teeth epidemic, we need more bus drivers, and bus builders, and train tracks, and train drivers and carriage builders, and fewer truck drivers than are presently being planned for.

Maybe we really don't need your job though?

I have always lived by the motto "all generalizations are false"

There is no point in griping about the Public Service as if it were one entity.

While it is entirely possible for the general public to place a value on, say, the police, it is far less easy to understand the contribution of a middle-ranking manager in, for example, the Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government.

So it might help the discussion to be a little more specific.

Perhaps we can make a start with "what is the benefit to the people of Australia of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, which will cost the taxpayer $183,171,000 in the financial year 2010-11?"

http://www.dpmc.gov.au/accountability/budget/2010-11/pbs/pbs_2010-11.pdf

This, I would suggest, is the kind of question that the Spanish government is asking itself.

Not whether garbos have more value than sports stars.

(Incidentally, the next part of my motto says "Including this one.")

Pericles... I think you meant to write 'all generalisations are generally wrong'.

Quite so, I only use the mindless comparisons to highlight the mindless post though.

Funny you mention the Rudd 'sink tank'.

Are OLO punters aware that all Commonwealth FOI inquiries have been moved from the AGs office, to Rudd's office?

Very 'Stalinist' methinks.

At least with FOI in the AGs area there was an illusion of 'fairness' about being able to access information.

But when Rudd drags it into his closed and darkened rooms one knows very well that this is yet another expression of his constipated inability to delegate anything.

I suggested individual needs to read about Mussolini.... well, Rudd is not dissimilar in how he wants to control every last detail.

If Abbott were to win, I'd cry, but if Rudd were to lose, I'll be laughing my head off at his early demise, and who then would be 'qualified' to run the ALP?

Hardly the Ginger Ninja, having been so closely associated with every last Rudd plan... that would be like electing Julie Bishop from deputy to leader.

The Blue Cross,
You still "don't get it" ! What's with the slave army nonsense ? Freezing pays is utterly different to cutting pay. Placing an upper & lower limit on public funded positions has nothing to do with cutting.
It's all to do with nation building & stronger society. The path we're on presently is leading to disaster in every aspect. There's living proof that people need to be pulled into line. Just as much as leaders need to be pulled into line. We constantly hear of not enough funding, well, a wage freeze/limit would free up literally billions help build a better society. Just look at the recent school building fiasco come blatant misappropriation. Buildings for 4 times the cost of normal. That Bluey is why we need better people in power than we have presently. We have those people looking over the fence & it's only due to people like you that stop them from getting into the yard. so far as the Public Service goes I can only say that instead of watchdogs we got scrapyard mongrels.

Dearie me, individual... a bit of an uncontrolled rant here?

"It's all to do with nation building & stronger society."

Aha, 'nation building' is it? You'd have to define precisely what you mean by 'nation' first.

Australia is indeed a 'nation-state' but it is not a 'nation'. It is composed of many 'nations', some recognised, however resentfully, some not.

When politicians speak of 'the national interest', they know not what they talk about.

And people hearing the phrase, maybe even you, never stop to consider, for one moment, what it means either.

"There's living proof that people need to be pulled into line"...yes mein Fuhrer, ve begin zu shooting at dawn.

"Just as much as leaders need to be pulled into line"... I am glad we agree that Abbott and Rudd are dangerous fools, but they are both responding to the even more dangerous fools who vote for them and approve their actions.

".. a wage freeze/limit would free up literally billions help build a better society"... hmm, my father fought a war against people who wanted to build 'a better society'. Maybe you are one of those who believe the ideal world is just around the next hairpin bend, after the chicane and humpback bridge?

"Just look at the recent school building fiasco come blatant misappropriation. Buildings for 4 times the cost of normal"... agreed, and the insulation and green loans fiascos, along with the NSCP scam, and much else taxpayers shell out for 'in the national interest'.

"That Bluey is why we need better people in power than we have presently"... well, we all agree with that, from all our disparate perspectives, as always, but therein lies the real dilemma.

There is no simple answer, and no single correct one at all, which probably means there is no hope of building a 'better society' because 'better' to me is anathema to you.

So we need to try to work through issues with some graeter dignity, and purpose than knee jerk actions, be they Rudd's wasteful 'saving the nation' or Abbott's 'burning the village to save the village' approach.

Pericles is generally right about generalisations.

individual
You obviously have your own story to tell. Why don't you outline your experience, rather than use a broad brush to rubbish the PS. What particular areas of public service do you think need to be cut or wages reduced?

TBC

My understanding is FOI enquiries (in totality) have not been moved to PM&C only the policy aspects which also covers reforms and legislation regarding access. One positive is that the Rudd government eradicated Conclusive Certificates. Previously public servants could deny access to information without providing a reason. Now they cannot. FOI requests are still handled by the relevant departments according to portofio responsibility.

http://www.dpmc.gov.au/consultation/foi_reform/index.cfm

Whoops...that should have read portfolio responsibility.

Thanks Pelican

I rang to get some info from DEEWR, was told it was 'available via FOI' and to go to the AG for FOI access to it.

I rang AGs.

They said they no longer do FOI, to ring PM and Cabinet.

They have people allocated to each dept, who deal with FOI requests.

Look, it may be a better deal, who knows?

But Rudd has a track record in Qld, and in his role as PM, and it is not a good one.... in my view at least.

I see there is a snippet on this in the Oz, p.2 bottom right.

TBC
I am sure PM&C will steer you in the right direction.

I have dealt with some FOI requests in regard to the area I was working in. Not sure about Rudd, but I believe Faulkner and then followed by Ludwig were both committed to greater government transparency. It is rare for documents to be denied nowadays unless it relates to national security, defence, international relations or Cabinet documents. There are some State/Commonwealth exemptions as well and some internal working document exemptions (weighted against public interest) but this might be improved under new legislative changes.

The Commonwealth Ombudsman is pretty good too at ensuring the more recalcitrant departments comply.

The section covering exemptions is second down at:

http://www.dpmc.gov.au/foi/guidelines.cfm

Pelican,
i fully appreciate that living in different areas also means different experiences. However, when dealing with various govt dept. everyone has to deal with the same bureaucrats .
I'm talking about calling offices such as for example the Ombudsman & getting Fred this week & he'll look into your case. next month you call about what's going on & you get suzie who has taken over from Fred & she'll call you back. Another month & you call Suzie & Suzie is no longer there but Bill has been assigned to your case. After 12 months of never actually getting to discuss your case you get told that you've reached the statute of limitation & we can no longer pursue your case. Ok, the public servant who cost you your job has got away with white goods etc on his way to yet another promotion & to immediately put all his effort into getting promoted again instead of proving himself in the just acquired position. The other one gets drunk & discharges a firearm & gets promoted out of the community. Another one is drunk & rolls a school bus at 2 o'clock in the morning & his police friends file a report of an incident at 10 am. I could rave on for weeks like this about those hardworking Public servants. Yes the public service provides much needed employment but shouldn't there be some accountability & value for money ?
Where is the value in importing a bureaucrat at a cost of $15,000.-in favour of a competent local & the import lasts seven months. Then another import , then another....

Individual... join a union, get Belly on the job, become more pro-active.

We all suffer from the same issues, you are not alone.

The Blue Cross,
The Union replied that there weren't sufficient prospective members to justify travelling to our area.
Btw. In our area we have public servants who get $500.- per week rental assistance to live in their own houses ! Several have been doing this for more than 10 years. The silly Labor Govt. has sold all its staff housing & is now renting it back at hugely inflated cost which of course has raised the average local rent to insane levels like $1500 per week for a flat. Now that is great economic management. Don't get me started on the travel rorts or on the education rorts or the health dept rorts or, or.....
Australia is always called a free country. Do they mean free for Public servants to rort to no end ?

Individual

The scenario you described where case-managers constantly change applies to any bureaucracy. Tried making an insurance claim? Return an faulty purchase? Redress incompetent maintenance on your car or home?

As for your claim that PS are given $500 rental rebate? Where did you pull that one from? I worked in the State Public service for 11 years and the Federal for 4 - I started on an income of far less than $500 per week, never received assistance with housing. Rental assistance is for unemployed, low-income and having worked as a housing officer, I know it never reached levels of $500 per week.

If you are going to make claims - produce evidence. Present credible arguments.

I get the impression that individual is a disgruntled tradesman employed by the Qld government, who is resentful that he hasn't been as successful in his career as have his superiors, or his counterparts in private industry. He projects his anger on to the entire Public Service (not to mention Indigenous people) in order to compensate for his own inadequacies and poor career choices.

As Severin says, the bureaucratic ineptitude that he describes is found in any large organisation. For example, anybody who's had dealings with Telstra in recent years would have encountered similar problems, but they certainly can't be attributed to public servants.

individual
Nobody likes rorts and certainly the money can be better spent. I have never been paid a bonus or given assistance but maybe the rental allowance was for a remote area where they had trouble getting staff. I know teachers in SA many years ago often got cheap housing in more remote areas as an incentive. I can't see anything wrong with that if it means ensuring regional areas are serviced.

Part of the problem is the accounting system - departments always do a big spend up before the next financial year to prove they need the same the next year. Although at the moment some departments are struggling with changing priorities, pressures from their Minsiter's office so one section loses much needed staff to pay for those in others - usually at the expense of customers.

I know one place that spent a heap before one financial year travelling to all parts of Australia when they could have done much of the work in Canberra. The problem is that they may actually need the funds in the following year for many reasons including new responsibilities or other shortfalls. The system needs to be reviewed.

We have all dealt with the bureacratic examples you speak about - have you ever tried to ring a bank and ask questions about something a bit out of left field only to find that when you ring back someone has got the wrong end of the stick, and you have to repeat your story over again. Or when a vendor has accidentally charged you twice for a credit card transaction and you deal with one bank, they deal with another and it is on for fun times ahead sorting that out. Sometimes I think customer should send bills for time wasted in sorting out bureaucratic bank bungles.

Sometimes I think customer should send bills for time wasted in sorting out bureaucratic bank bungles.
Now there's a great idea !
CJ Morgan, you really are incapable of telling the difference between disgruntlement & anger.
Your remark re the indigenous is out of order.
Bureaucratic ineptitude is found in any large organisation. So you do know about it happening. Why aren't you doing anything about it like supporting those who want to change it.
just because it happens makes it ok ? I suppose being more than likely a benefactor of this ineptitude would be silly for you to do something about it.

individual: << you really are incapable of telling the difference between disgruntlement & anger >>

It's merely a question of degree. Perhaps you're unaware of how angry you appear to be when you make ridiculous generalisations about the entire Public Service, based on gripes you have about the bureaucracy under which you choose to work.

Ditto for your various comments about the Indigenous people whom you encounter during the course of your work.

You seem to be very adept at apportioning blame for your evident disgruntlement on to generalised groups of 'others'. Perhaps you should look a bit closer to home for the sources of your anger.

CJ Morgan,
assuming you have an ounce of integrity I guarantee you would have convulsions from what I heard just minutes ago talking to indigenous friends over dinner tonight. The misuse of council money by so-called community managers. The three chaps told me about councillors' adventures in escort agencies & purchase of a house incl furniture all from public funding. Unfortunately, the law not being on my side I can not state much more at this stage but, watch this space.
Do not make the mistake of thinking I'm merely disgruntled.

individual: << Do not make the mistake of thinking I'm merely disgruntled >>

So you've got some hearsay evidence of rorting by some local government officials? How does that justify bagging the entire Public Service? If you have any real evidence of corruption, take it to the CMC.

I agree that your anger seems to extend beyond mere disgruntlement. Everything that's wrong with your life is down to those evil public servants, academics and freeloading Indigenous people, isn't it?

Have you ever had professional counselling? Might be worth a try.

If you have any real evidence of corruption, take it to the CMC.
CJ Morgan,
re the advise above, that's problem # 1. You obviously have no idea about the CMC otherwise you wouldn't recommend them. So far as your obsessive insinuations re freeloading indigenous are concerned it might be worth a try to get some counselling ! Not everything in my opinion is down to those evil Public Servants it only just so happens that I have a great deal to do with them & the greater %age are useless, incompetent bludgers. Are you one of them, because you seem rather defensive of them. You're always on about discrimination, or is that a selective process with you. Do you think discrimination is bad when it affects indigenous but not when a non-indigenous is targeted or when indigenous are discriminated against by other indigenous.

Individual, don't allow yourself to get sidetracked by the dog-whistling of Morgan et al. The Public Service is a very broad set of organisations. Many of them are quite efficient and have good accountability based on outcomes and on process rather than on reinforcing an ideological bias. Some of them don't.

The "hard" Departments, like Treasury or the ATO, are generally focussed on results, while the "soft" ones like DHS or Environment are frequently sidetracked by either their own ideological preferences or by interference from politicians.

Do you think that if Treasury was responsible for the oversight of either the BER or insulation debacles that the outcomes would have been as bad as they are under Education and Environment? I don't, because the people in Treasury have had a far more rigorous training and educational background than the social studies course that people like Morgan and far too many bureaucrats have had, where independent thought is actively discouraged.

A great example is administration of the Child Support scheme. When the ATO was responsible for it complaints were low and compliance was high with low staffing numbers, completely the reverse of what has been "achieved" under DHS. Not only that, but under the ATO staff were able to be properly identified and gave their full name when asked, something that is now no longer "policy" for the unaccountable and frequently dishonest CSA who, just like Morgan, prefer spin over substance.

cheers Antiseptic,
i just thought it might be a good thing to expose the mutts in our midst by their own doing. CJ M is doing a great job.

individual - you really shouldn't post here when you've been drinking. You make even less sense than usual.

Dog-whistling, Antiseptic? Back under your rock.