It has been said I am welded on to Rudd, just maybe that is not true.
In a forum now gone, called I think Australian politics I referred to him as Krudd.
I have changed my opinion of him, will vote for him while he leads my party.
But why.
Well so many who challenge my view seem to think I see him as the best there ever was.
No I See him against what we in the ALP have, Bill Shorten, one day if he wishes Paul Howe's Lindsy Tanner right now are my favorites.
Kim Beasley was is and always will be a great bloke, would have been a great prime minister but he never would have been elected.
If the thread gets a run I have much to say about Rudd, but look at the damage people like Latham and Crean did, the awful mess their self interest left my party in yes I like Kevin Rudd.
But could anyone who is not welded on conservative ever vote for Abbott?

Yes Belly, I also vote for the least awful alternative. This is happening all over the West, parties no longer get voted in, it is the other that is voted out or considered the least favourable option.

I could not imagine what sort of Australia we would end up with Abbott as the leader with his conservative and retrograde attitudes about IR and bias towards big business. Labor is not much better and Rudd's housekeeping has been poor, but there are others better than him in the ALP.

We vote against rather than for - the sad reality of Australian politics.

Very much so pelican.
No party can give me every thing I want.
But some real thinkers have charged me with un questioning support for Rudd.
I am in no way so silly.
Before getting my views of him across let me say clearly, letters from no less than John Howard are in my desk thanking me for supporting him on issues.
And that, without reserve, I see Abbott and those who put him in power as the worst enemy's of the Liberal party in my life.
Not a chance, EVER I could other than vote against them.
Rudd took a shambolic wasted divided party, oh Kim had made changes but it was a witch's cauldron boiling under the surface, and made it as whole as is possible.
Failures like Garrett came via the silly idea seats should be presented to stars, or for that matter a few failures of the union movement.
Not not like Shorten he truly is a star candidate and never a failure.
Rudd has many wins, clearly stopping the NSW rats from entering federal Parliament was one.
ETS? He must convince me he got it right not calling a DD election.
I am open to claims he did it to save money in an uncertain world but not because the world turned gutless.

I too have no particular party that represents my views anymore Belly.

But I do agree that an Abbott led Govt would have me moving to NZ.

Rudd represents the voice of moderation in the mix for mine.

The extremist, small town ideological (even theological) basis for the thinking of Abbott and his supporters could take this country back even further than the Howard Govt did.

I am still expecting a barrage of media from the big end of town that has already been Rudd bashing for quite some time now. Mistakes have been made by the Govt ,(not particularly by Kevin Rudd). The game itself has changed along the way, due to worldwide causes and local obstruction by the Senate has made dealing with it, difficult.

Another poster (on another subject) said I should look at media bias in 1974-75 as the best example. I see parallels here.

In 74 ? a Labor Senator died from Qld, allowing Joe Bjelke Petersen to hijack the balance of power, by appointing a ring in Senator named Fields. Fields voted against the Govt on every occasion inc supply bills, bringing on the dismissal.

The media had a field day then bashing a Govt that on winning Govt went through 2 elections in 3 yrs and still could not get it's important bills through parliament.

Rudd has gone full term (probably) otherwise his situation is not dissimilar to Whitlam's
in that his important bills are also on hold.

The media wants a change of Govt if you listen to Andrew Bolt and Co, and action man Abbott is their man. If Rudd loses this election and Tony Abbott gets to reign free, in away that his idol Bob Santamaria could never have, is proof enough that there is no god Belly.

The situation here is similar to that which exists in other developed countries, which can be summarised as "the people and the politicians have different agendas".

We are presently having a good chortle at the Poms, with their "well hung" Parliament - the perfect spotlight on the iniquities of first-past-the-post. They will have to become accustomed to coalition politics, we snigger, and wean themselves off the system where one party rules at any one time.

But we are no better off, unfortunately. We're hamstrung, not by first-past-the-post, but by compulsory voting and a strictly two-party system. (Incidentally, anyone suggesting that the "Coalition" party is actually a coalition of two separate entities, is kidding)

We are told that in a democracy, we can express our views at the ballot box. But that is absolutely, emphatically and demonstrably not the case.

We are allowed to vote for a Party, that may or may not represent some or all of our political leanings. But once we have voted for them, they are under absolutely no obligation to carry out all, or even any, of the commitments they made when they were asking for our vote.

So we end up voting for an image. I have to confess that I came very close to voting for Rudd last time around. (I managed to find an Independent, who was probably quite surprised that his support extended beyond his immediate family)

In retrospect, my leaning towards Rudd was based entirely upon the contrast between Rudd's public persona, and Howard's - one that I had gradually come to loathe and despise.

(Granted, this did come off a baseline thorough dislike of boring, jumped-up suburban solicitors.)

I suspect that many Americans felt the same way about Obama, and his contrast with whoever-it-was on the Republican side.

The Rudd-gloss is now gone. Some may even have forgotten the toad-like presence of the master of bottom-of-the-parrot-cage dog-whistling.

But what remains is an impossible choice, between the cowardly do-nothingness of Rudd, or the possibility of an excess of zeal from a wild-eyed seminarian with a madonna/whore complex.

Some democracy.

well i have tried to maintain a position where i like to believe that Rudd and his ministers will learn important lessons from the mistakes they have made. Unfortunately this isn't looking real good at this time. It seems every few weeks another diaster comes to light making it real hard to find new arguments to support him.
Really the best thing they have going for them right now is Abbott and please a budget that shows they are not going to continue to pile up debt.
The public mood is shifting and fast so hold on we may well have a change if Abbott can hold it together and not say what he really thinks.
New Zealand is out though as no matter what, this is the best place to live i know of.

On the morning the Polls reflect the mood of Melbourne, and Rudd would be defeated if he went to the polls today, Belly has an opportunity to save his bacon. Rudd will win my vote back and that of enough to carry the day if he listens to our mate Belly. Belly you are an intelligent man, and can probably get to Kevin Rudd’s ear in a way no one else on OLO could.

KR is currently the hostage of his lawyer advisers, in the Prime Ministers Legal Policy Unit. These idiots are uneducated, do not have a clue about the English language, and subscribe to the myth of State Sovereignty. S 79 and 80 are vital parts of the Australian Constitution and If KR will just come out and admit that the words judges and court in s 79 Constitution are generic, and not the same as Court and Judge which are specific words.

The Official Australian Style Manual, which governs the conduct of printers of Government documents, states that Capital Letters must be applied to some nouns to distinguish them from their generic meaning (Page 125). S 79 Constitution uses ‘judges’ and ‘courts’ as generic terms, to distinguish them from ‘Judge’ and ‘Court’ which are not generic terms, but apply to individuals and places. A generic court (in order to comply with Ch III Constitution) must have ‘judges’ and those judges must be 12 ordinary subjects of Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second.

English is the language of the Australian Constitution, and when the term “generic” is clarified by the Oxford English Dictionary, which says: Characteristic of a genus or class; applied to (any individual of) a large group or class. general, not specific, or special.
It is clear that the words court and judges, as used in S 79 of Ch III Constitution refer to a genus of courts, and a genus of judges, not a Specific Court or specific Judge, and accordingly much legislation has been promulgated in error. Likewise S 80 Constitution clarifies S 79 and refers specifically to juries, but not a court.

Thinker 2 you and I know about the media of 1974/1975 most do not.
Nothing has changed well wait back then the lies flowed but we my ALP was often wrong.
Todays lies fear the whole thing is as false as Abbott's claim work choices is dead.
Rudd is the best we have, at present, most of the lost voters went to greens.
I do think Rudd has failed in a few things ETS, gutless that.
Garret, and Macklyne should be exported.
Tanner would be a better deputy, but Rudd is still odds on to win another term.
Like other posters I want evidence he is learning, aware substance is required not cuddly teddy bear stuff.
And in time he will retrieve much lost popularity, but maybe not from true believers like me.
He must let his Cabernet be seen, stop farming the view he is the government, Tanner should be up front more and give Shorten air.
Boat people? just maybe it is a red neck issue but we are finding voters going because of it.
See the nice and sweet no ban on burkas statement?
Bet 60% of voters disagree, unhappy about that? no way count me in the for it pile.
But opposition joy is counting chickens that are not going to hatch.

Remember Belly,the one term wonders?You said no way 2yrs ago. Labor have betrayed their faithful.The Bonobo Party.The diffence being Labor do not simulate sex with our economy.They are presently raping it.Find a new party Belly.

Arjay often you launch in to threads to explain you know things the rest of us do not.
Not for the first time, you say Rudd is a one termer.
How will you hide the evidence of your lack of understanding after the Federal election?
See fact is Rudd will be returned.
Still a very real possibility with an increased majority.
Arjay Rabbott will NEVER lead Australia.
Not ever.
While Labor has failed to impress in the last 12 months, While Rudd has gone for kisses and cuddles rather than policy's that he carries out.
Rabbott and his team, worst senate road block for years, are imitating the Nazi proper gander minister truth having no value in the rubbish Australia is about to see past and the lies.

Rudd & the bulk of the ALP hierarchy are of academic background. That should explain it all.

I said a considered opinion, but I have not given that have I?
I am finding it hard not to compare Rudd to ANY front bencher in the shambolic Abbott team.
Against his opposition he rules, by miles.
And let me bury that biased rubbish, that killer of true debate, that my defense of Rudd/ALP/UNIONS is without reservation.
Clearly that is wrong, and those who say it undermine their ability to understand others views have value too.
Back to Rudd, he is a nice bloke, loves the spotlight, a true financial conservative.
But can he be progressive and loved?
Forget the fear, he has already won the coming election.
And in my view he will bring about great reforms, but he MUST control some real duds in his team.
I question the need for ALP prime minsters to be so well educated, it seems to make some remote from me and those like me.
Delegation, a key word find the right people and delegate.
Get an ETS or get out Kevin, be brave in social welfare, rebuild the unemployment system.
Put those who can not get work in to real jobs not underpaid ones not sit down money give a return to us for tax's in this area.
Take health care, all of the states powers away, never ever can you fix it all but improve it.
Never too late to learn mate and we are no one termer but we may not get the third one without hard effort.

Oh Belly of the Crystal ball. Up there in New England, there are lots of Prophets living at Nimbin. Tarot Cards, rule. The fact that they are mostly an exercise in self delusion is irrelevant. They are a peccadillo. They harm no one. Well not seriously anyway. A little dreaming is just fine.

Rudd has got to keep one promise. To govern under the Constitution. Whitlam, Fraser, Hawke, Keating and Howard did not, and Rudd is not yet.

Rudd has got to keep one promise. To govern under the Constitution. Yesterday the Melbourne papers said he was under a warning. Perform or perish. Thing is Gillard is not making any such promise.

Abbott has a chance according to the papers down south, and that is an amazing turnaround. I have never since the last six months of Whitlam, heard so much personal dislike expressed for a Prime Minister as I hear as I go around at the moment. If Abbott accepts that the Constitution is the paramount law of Australia, is a Christian document for a Christian country, and walks humbly before his God, he will continue to rattle the Rudd.

Christians from all walks of life, want a Christian leader. Abbott fits the bill. By his fruits so far, Rudd does not. However he could smarten up. Lets hope so. As he does not rely on your Crystal Ball, he may need another kind or two of them.

Peter the Believer:"I have never since the last six months of Whitlam, heard so much personal dislike expressed for a Prime Minister as I hear as I go around at the moment"

Neither have I. It's much more pervasive than it was for Howard or even Keating, who both polarised opinion pretty well themselves. Not many have a good word to say about Rudd except the rusted on and even Belly is more about solidarity than any genuinely held belief in his capacity to do anything useful.

Power without glory.

Dear Belly,

The current Government had won the election
with a program of best intentions which
unfortunately despite all efforts the
Opposition was determined to undermine at
any cost and blame the Government for not
achieving its aims. Despite that the Government
pursued a lesser program that they felt was
essential for the country and its people and
postponed obvious programs until after the
elections. Programs that the Opposition were
again determined to undermine.

It would have been fruitless, a waste of time
and money to pursue programs before the election
that had no possible chance of being passed by
the Senate.

The major problem that the Government encountered
was the global financial crisis, in part caused by
the Bush Administration and its supporters, with
the backing of the previous administration. The
problem had to be attended to immediately and
fortunately for the Government - Australia managed
to survive the disaster.

The Opposition has no excuse to ignore that fact and
yet it continues to blame the Government for having postponed
some of it's programs.

Kevin Rudd has the credentials to deal with our largest
trading partner (China) and represent Australia on the
international stage. Unfortunately, Tony Abbott has no
such credentials and his party has no credible policies
pursuing an election campaign simply on negativity.
Despite their promises of presenting policies just
before the election - which will give no time for the voters
to evaluate and vote.

It appears that the Liberals are banking all their policies
on fantasy projections, hoping to mesmerize the public in
voting for them. In the past two and a half years the
Opposition had absolutely nothing to entice the support of
the voters.

It would appear from the casual observer that dissatisfied
elements within the Opposition have finally banded
together and begged Malcolm Turnbull to return to the fold
simply because after the election they will need a good
leader. Because Tony Abbott has as much chance of winning
as a snowball in hell.

I think you should all calm down.

In our system, the people don't get the party they want because they have to compromise with all the other people.

For the same reason, politicians don't get to push the policies they want, because they have to find a mix acceptable to a majority of the people, whilst competing with other politicians. This compromise is the essence of democracy.

This compromise may cause the fans of left and right to complain that no one represents them, and whine about the system (as is apparent on this thread). However, it is also why the fans of both left and right don't have much to fear from radical politicians running rampant.

As the history of politics in this country, and most countries shows, the successful parties, left or right, pretty much stay the course of their predecessors with only the odd tinker at the edges, and that's because however great the differences between party leaders, neither of the main political parties will allow leaders to wander far from the electorate's wishes. Gough Whitlam's Labor party may be the only one who tried, and when he was called to account (however unfair the background to that occasion may have been) the electorate made his government pay for wandering off on a reform program that exceeded the electorate's appetite.

Abbot would be a terrifying proposition as a dictator, but as a PM in our system, at worst he is "mostly harmless."

Dear Kalin,

I don't agree with your statement that Tony Abbott
would be "harmless" as PM.

Unless of course you don't consider cuts to
health, education, social services, and so forth,
damaging to our country. And you also believe in
the ideology of greed and the politics of money
and power, leaving no room for social equity,
compassion, or the idea of an egalitarian society.

People, in Abbott's view, either sink or swim, and
if they sink, well that's too bad. Because according
to Mr Abbott welfare is not good for business.

If you want to vote for a Party and a PM who has
nothing to offer apart from negativity and
condemnation, that's your choice. But heaven help
the rest of us if these people get into power.
The country will definitely go down the gurgler -
and in my view that's not at all "harmless."

The failure from Mr Rudd to call an election on the 'greatest moral challenge of the century' shows that he is full of spin. They have had every chance to have a double disillusion election but they lack the courage of any conviction. In fact Mr Rudd more than likely realizes that Mr Abbot's description of man made gw was pretty accurate. Foxy and Belly will defend their beloved party to the death no matter how many lies they tell, deaths they cause, incompetence they display and promises they break. The hatred of Abbot and the blind ideology leads them to unbending loyalty. Pretending that somehow the conservatives are less compassionate is just a smokescreen and proof of blindness.

Spot on I thought Foxy, especially the bit about Malcolm Turnbull. Do you think there is any chance they might do that before the election, after all the Libs must know that Abbott can't win as well?.

And spot on Kalin1 about reality. but I can't agree that "the electorate made his (Whitlam's) government pay for wandering off on a reform program that exceeded the electorate's appetite".

The electorate had already voted for the Whitlam Gov't twice in 2 yrs and was granted a Senate majority in the 2nd election.

The subversion of that power (by un-democratic and scurrilous means through the death of a Labor senator) caused the Govt to be forced to a third election in 3 years , after being dismissed.

Along with this, media campaign's were waged with bottomless budgets, designed to discredit and overwhelm our Govt by unknown? . The Media baron's themselves perhaps?. In addition, facts were kept secret from the electorate for security reasons and had the electorate known these facts, their vote may have been different, in a Claytons election.

Malcolm Fraser became our first officially appointed Pm/caretaker (by royal decree) according to our constitution, since Federation. The Voters/democracy had nothing to do with it.

And Peter the Believer, some people think religion is crystal ball gazing but accept other peoples rights to gaze anyway they want.

Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 12 May 2010 1:25:00 PM
Opposition was determined to undermine at
any cost and blame the Government for not
achieving its aims.

Thank god for small mercies. Every single pragramme they have implemented turned to feces. I do not agree with most of the Liberal policy platforms, so I will see which independents’ preferences go where and look at what they say and choose one. Liberals are not getting my vote, but I will never again vote for a Rudd lead government.
I fell for all the socially empathetic lies that Kev did spin. It is what I was looking for after the Howard years, but he did not stand up for the plebs. I have seen no new housing for the Aboriginals, no school computers, no child care, no GP super centers, no aged care beds, no grocery watch, no fuel watch, etc etc etc. But I have seen thieves both petty and corporate living high of the insulation bats and BER schemes.
Rudd cares for nothing except self......That is a considered opinion!

Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 12 May 2010 3:43:35 PM
People, in Abbott's view, either sink or swim, and
if they sink, well that's too bad. Because according
to Mr Abbott welfare is not good for business.

Foxy I have had the discussion about welfare a zillion times with right wing well heeled folks. Their consensus is that some welfare is amenable but a cutoff point must be in place (only payments for the first child of unwed mothers, etc) as example.

My response to them is; I don't have a clue what the government is doing with our money, but the more of it that is pumped into the domestic economy the better we are for it. It's gone into the economy in a fortnight, a little job creator injected by our government with our money every two weeks. Its money better spent than $50,000 dollars per page on the viability of broadband, a book report that cost 25 million.

People, in Abbott's view, either sink or swim,
That is a standard archetypal nasty ignoramus accusation by someone who obviously never had to perform to get a pay packet.
We must have a welfare starting point & a limit. Just to (again) bring up an extreme example I knew a fellow who proudly proclaimed to have fathered 11 children & never paid a cent for any of them. The two mothers lived quite happily on the child support. Now Foxy & other Anti Abbotts', where would you draw the line in a case like that ? You never know your explanation might be quite logical, just let us know.
We must have welfare for the unfortunate but we don't need any support for the lazy & deliberately useless.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, so the saying goes, but the road to heaven must be paved with bad ones, if this is true. This is not so stupid as it sounds. Rudd had the best of good intentions, when he became PM, but is in his own private hell as he looks like the most successful failure since Federation.

Turnbull had lots of good intentions, but as a practicing lawyer, had a brain problem, he was unable to overcome. He wanted to be an Aristocrat. Now Tony Abbott, got a law degree, was sent to be brainwashed as a Rhodes Scholar in England, as was Hawke and Fraser, but has never as far as I can find out been an advocate in any court.

We thought KR was a thinking man, whose Christian convictions, reinforced by regular attendance at Church, would allow him to think independently of the legal advisers who torpedoed the Howard Government. Where it really mattered, the Rudd government has the same old, same old, brain dead lawyers, Howard had, and he has hit a mine as he journeyed towards the next election.

The thinking Christian centre of Australia, even though they do not always attend Church, make or break governments. Rudd knew this in 2006-7, but has forgotten it since being elected. As Yamamoto so wisely said, beware the sleeping tiger. It was the Christian centre that consigned Whitlam to obscurity, Howard to the dustbin, and switched 23 seats from the Liberals to Labor. Turnbull should accept that he will never make the cut, and simply bugger off, and let another man have a go. So should Kevin.

Turnbull should accept that he will never make the cut, and simply bugger off, and let another man have a go. So should Kevin.
PtB,
couldn't put it any better myself. I have however to express my puzzlement at your other remarks i.e. whose Christian convictions allow him to think independently. Isn't being a religious zealot a perfect example of having been brainwashed ? To have the conviction to be a decent human being does not at all fit into being religious, christian not excluded.
A good human being in my books is one who can criticise him/herself & closest relatives.
To get back to Kevin Rudd, I don't for one minute doubt that is is a decent man but I have great doubts re his ability to get his cabinet & supporters to apply/enforce equality.
Meaning well unfortunately, isn't enough. Equality doesn't mean the same amount for everyone. The basis of equality is moral consideration. I just don't see it anywhere. If anyone does show me please.

Dear Individual,

Firstly let me say that I, my husband and my family
have worked all of our lives and as a matter of fact
our parents were of the generation that believed
in working for what they needed and they did not look
to anyone else to provide it for them. Neither do we,
nor the rest of our extended families.

However, having said that, the laws of the country
are written for the benefit of all, and not tailored
to individual conditions. And there will always be
those that will rort the system and take advantage
at the expense of others. But that doesn't mean that
we shouldn't provide for those in genuine need.

It is interesting to note that those who rort the system
the most are the very rich who will take advantage of
first home buyers schemes, child endowment, and every
conceivable benefit going in their own interest.
For example, there's a famous personality in Melbourne,
whose son has taken advantage of all of the above despite
the fact that his father paid for his new multi-million
dollar house, and he has a high paying job.

The current Government's policies is to introduce programs
of health, welfare, education, employment, and so forth,
in the interest of the majority of the people. At least
they are trying to do something despite every obstacle
presented by those that represent the minority of the
people, the very rich. What I can't understand is - why
not support schemes that may benefit the nation. And insist
on playing politics. It's an unfortunate characteristic
that we see every day of tearing down the tall poppies
who try to achieve something that others are not capable
to conceive. When you tear down the tall poppies, only
the weeds remain, and the Oppostiion Front Bench is full of
weeds!

Cheers Foxy,
i have no problems with sorting out the parasites, I'd have thought it to be clear to anyone on OLO by now that that's all I'm on about.
You say the Opposiition full of weed. Well, what makes weed grow ?
I have yet to see a conservatives supporter who claims as ignorantly as do ALP supporters that their hierarchy is beyond reproach. I reside in an area where Public Servants invade at a rate the worst cancer could only be envious of.
One silly git on this forum has nothing more intelligent to remark on than caring people being full of hatred. The old adage you got to be cruel to be kind ring more true nowadays than ever before.
You & your family may well have worked & deserve for everything you have. Please spare a thought of the countless victims of incompetent bureaucracy. People who have lost just about everything including their mind because of utterly incompetent Public Servants. That's what I am on about. People who don't understand & care even less about decency & getting handsomely rewarded for it.
That, dear Foxy is my gripe.
btw I better write the word black so CJ Morgan can put one of it's opportunistic remarks on this topic.

Foxy,

What are you referring to when you refer to the "obstacles" presented by the very rich?

There's no doubt the very rich have more influence, per capita, than the poor, but outside those that have a strong hold on the media, the idea that they somehow significantly restrain what our politicians can do is pretty baseless. The real restraints, which I suspect you are attributing to the 'very rich' are in fact economic realities, which are true whether the rich have a say or not

Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 13 May 2010 10:55:47 AM
The current Government's policies is to introduce programs
of health, welfare, education, employment, and so forth,
in the interest of the majority of the people. At least
they are trying to do something despite every obstacle
presented by those that represent the minority of the
people, the very rich.

This piece regarding the U.S.health care bill.

WASHINGTON, March 24 (Reuters) - The FBI and police are investigating attacks and threats against Democratic members of Congress who voted for healthcare reform, and a senior House of Representatives Democrat said on Wednesday his colleagues are at risk.

Help my fellow American and I will kill you, how absurd that society.

Dear Kalin et al,

The answer to your question - is GREED!
That's the biggest obstacle!

The money of the rich made it possible
for John Howard to get into power.
The Government of the day made it easy
for the mining, oil, and banking industries
to get very, very rich and pay themselves,
LARGE BONUSES.

Now, that the new Government under Kevin Rudd,
is trying to distribute the wealth more fairly,
and of course the rich don't like it because it
is never enough when you have GREED!

The mining industry is screaming of unfair taxes
and are threatening to take their "bat and ball,"
and go somewhere else. However, GREED will succeed
and after a short grumble the mining industry will
continue to make large profits as before. But
thanks to the Kevin Rudd initiative, the country
will prosper.

I trust that answers your question.

Antiseptic on display in your posts two things.
You let your dislike of me color your thoughts.
And take every chance to needle those you dislike, truth is of little concern to you.
Now PTB nimbin? no not close and you will not find me in the area, regugees of their middle class existance and atempting to relive a flower power fable that never quite made it in Autralia.
I am prepared to test my views and undrstanding of poltics, here now, every thing foxy said is true.
Remember I am on record and wish to stay so, saying Rudd will retain governent increasing his majority.
We all to easily, forget the claims we make, forgive ourselves for bing totally wrong.
It is an understanding of the subject that clearly tells me not to worry Ruud, the best person for the job, is home a winner.
Few here know about the 1972 till 1975 climate in Canberra and the media.
The reforming ALP government was asulted from all sides, INCLUDING from within, as its hero's acted like clowns.
But like today, lies and blown up store's appeared daily in a press that exists to keep conservatives in power.
Have no fear foxy, in openly saying what I think, including that my leader should have bought about the DD election must still, I do not betray him.
This forum is well read Kim Beasley was a visitor Shorten posted here and Rudd is only a share holder in the ALP he is not bullet proof and I am not hiding my views Abbott for a hundred reasons including his betrayal of Turnbull is too dangerous to elect.
Bank on it Australia NEVER will.

Just a thought Peter the believer.
In NSW Christians have kept mad Fred in office raffles and all.
And Gordon who is at least a good bloke with little understanding.
Form guide tells me we need to fear more Christian candidates like those we have.

*The mining industry is screaming of unfair taxes
and are threatening to take their "bat and ball,"
and go somewhere else. However, GREED will succeed*

Ah Foxy, you clearly don't understand the mining dispute,
like so many.

It is not about GREED at all. It is about being RELIABLE
and keeping your WORD.

Rudd simply doesent have the integrity that somebody like
Hawke had, when they negotiated the petroleum tax.

So let me give you an example to explain it to you simply,
so that you can finallu understand it.

If a company offered your husband a lucrative job, which
entailed selling up, moving house etc, and your husband
took it, spent that money, then when he started work they
said "ha, we are going to pay you 40% less then we agreed"

how would you feel?

Give Aussie Battlers a go

Fellow Aussies give the lower income battler a bloody go
Cease paying labourers, truck drivers and non-tertiary
qualified people wages well below

Some of us never given the opportunity to be well paid
permanent public servants, sitting in an airconditioned or heated
office, sipping on coffee working, the luxury of stability, long
service and hefty pay out super you know

The rest of us Aussies slogging it out in the elements
treated like dirt half the time, no rights,
come rain, hail, sleet, heat and snow

Laid off over the years when companies cut their costs
Long term contractors, casuals and full timers; a manager looks across.
Up goes a hand, he points to the door, no thanks, little notice, “cutting costs” he says, “You know how it is Ross”.

“Oh c’mon man, its just a week away from Christmas; my kids, what’ll I do”, despairs Ross.
“Mate, its not my problem, don’t shoot the sender, just doing my job for the Boss”.
“Will I get a reference at least, to secure another position after Christmas”, asked tired 40’s something Ross.
“Sorry mate”, laughs the Manager, shifting from foot to foot, “The boss doesn’t give ‘em for contractors and part-timers, his hours of the essence, the company can’t afford this type of ‘friggin’ reference writing time loss.

Over the next day, Ross rings around companies, feeling defeated.
After all, he’s already trodden this private enterprise non-tertiary qualified path before uphill.
Trying to ward off depression, low self esteem, anxiety and tempted not to pop a pill,
Ross uses the job seeker internet site spruiking his experience UNTIL….

(cont)

“Why did you leave your previous employer”, was yet another’s company’s query.
“Well, company policy is to lay off contractors, casuals and part-timers before the holiday period starts”, Ross explains for the hundredth time most weary.
“Oh how dreadful to do that this time of year, Sir, I am so sorry, they booted you out on your ear. However, do come along to an interview, join the other 20 young candidates, do not be disillusioned and do not fear”.

A phone call comes through after Ross hangs up the phone
“Darling, how did you go all day”, asked his loving wife Joan.
“No, Sweetheart, age is against me, now how the heck are we to pay off our loan?”.
“Ross, we’ve weathered hard times before, when you were injured and sore,
And plenty of times with selfish, thoughtless uncaring employers, who showed you and others the door”.
“I’ll just have to take something different and lower in pay,
Seems these days are no different to twenty years ago, stuff our taxes going to workplace reforms, an employee never did have any rights not now nor any time before”.

Dear Belly,

I'm so disappointed with Tony Abbott's
reply to the Budget. I was looking
forward to a positive and creative
response as an alternative to the Government's
Budget presentation.

I've just watched Tony Abbott's
speech in response to the Budget.
He has demonstrated a lack of skill to be
a leader of any Party or Organisation. No
wonder John Howard gave him lesser responsibilities
when he was PM.
It was a repeat of Abbotts first debate with Kevin Rudd.
With that sort of an attitude Abbott
is slowly losing the base Liberal support that the Party
desperately needs to stay in power in Co-Alition with
the National Party.

There has been rumblings in the National Party to separate
from the Liberals and the recent demonstrations by Tony
Abbott may easily excelerate that process.

Many Liberal supporters keep waiting for a positive
direction for their Party to take - but so far nothing
appears to be on the horizon and many Liberals who
would not support Labor in an election will definitely
turn towards the Greens or Independents. That is my
experience in our area, which is a strong
Liberal electorate with a long serving Liberal MP.

People are turned off by disunity and negativity.
And the Liberals certainly don't represent anything
positive and the Liberal voters don't like the
direction the Party is taking.

I wonder, Foxy.

>>Liberal voters don't like the direction the Party is taking.<<

It will certainly be interesting to see the next opinion poll, now the Budget is out in the open.

Both parties are now in full-steam-ahead election mode. Rudd has cleared the decks of anything he sees as potentially contentious, but in doing so has left himself open to a charge of cowardice, and of taking the easy option.

Abbott has latched onto this as his core message to the electorate, and is starting to take the battle into areas which are, as Foxy points out, blatantly aggressive and confrontational.

Unfortunately for Rudd, he has significantly underperformed against his initial promises, and in doing so has disappointed a lot of people.

Rudd also - let's be honest here - got a segment of the population to vote for him, who subscribed to the view that Howard had outlasted his welcome, and was therefore a little on the nose.

So with respect Foxy, setting out a campaign based on a negative may actually be a good strategy. Gather the votes of people with negative thoughts about Rudd by attacking his lack of achievement, and you have the mirror image of the "Howard must go" cohort, ready to place their trust in you.

Or at least, tick the box.

It is true that voters in the middle ground vote against those whom they are disillusioned. Howard was only on the nose because he went too far with Work Choices and employers exploited those opportunities. Maybe if leaders are in power for too long they get arrogant and abrogate their responsibilities to the electorate.

I think Howard would have been voted out in the election previously if there was a strong alternative, people were already disappointed by children overboard, AWB, core promises, lack of environmental policies etc. Like NSW the highly defective Labor Party was re-elected only because of a lack of positive or inspirational alternatives.

Dear Pericles,

We all know that it takes more then 3 years
to achieve any Government's program.

And the Electorate gave John Howard 11 years to
prove his achievments.

In the end as you said he got on the nose and it
was time for somebody else.

Kevin Rudd had presented his election promises and
any clear thinking individual should realize that
to achieve such a program takes longer then one
Electoral term.

Foxy,

In My Humble Opinion. Our whole political system is dysfunctional in that it focuses on the trivial and encourages inertia than improvements.

The opposition are there to oppose (full stop) they stand to lose more by suggesting, making them a big target or the govt appropriate their policies. (shock horror the country might benefit not just their party)

For the public;
-Its easier to blame that Rudd for his failure to meet his election promises and punish him than to actually consider why and is he really to blame.or their part in the ineffectiveness of a government.
- In this way the public think in a time(absent) loop.
i.e. *BEFORE* he was elected he put his promises up.
-- Squash Work choices et al (un voted for policies...Howard's Hubris)
-- Climate Change
-- Refugees.
-- Health
-- Schools.
Rudd had reasonable belief all 5 were possible without Howard (if Labor won).
he did two and a bit but run into the business lobby and a Coalition who's new resolve was to oppose/oppose, different world than was plausibly expected, on Climate Change.
-the public fail to comprehend that to implement CC policy is more than the ETS. i.e. a magic bullet.

In truth how could have he known that:
- the coalition would go feral, that the world
- (US) would wimp out.
- The world powers to be would mishandle AGW so badly. By allowing a publicist to take the point on the topic. Allowing the debate to be come a personality war.

The public don't see that in someways it gave Labor a losing hand.

NB the Labor didn't do its self any favours by making so many unforced errors.

- Vote via the hip pocket or prejudice nerve. It is too easy for a party to tweek either rather than sensible government. i.e. I vote for practical policy; principal; party philosophy then personality.
the hard bit is up front.
parties prefer the reverse because they are easily malleable/tweeked to appear what ever the attention span challenged public want.
The media too need short attention spanned/manipulatable public too

What would Abbott have done differently and better? What about Howard?

Emerging OK from the global financial crisis and keeping unemployment low are significant accomplishments.

Swan is a nice fellow who isn't given to the endless self-promotion of Peter Costello and that is a good thing.

Most of the negative stuff about Rudd is beat-up and an example of that is his so-called loss of temper with Kerry O'Brien. As entertaining as Kerry can be, he was flogging a dead horse in that interview with no conceivable benefit for the audience and most pollies would have cut it sooner. Margaret Thatcher would have grilled Kerry on a spit.

Not being able to arm-wrestle major powers into an international agreement isn't a black mark by any means. Australia got world attention and would be well regarded for its stance. That is good enough.

People are too influenced by the faux drama created daily by the media to win an audience.

Dear Examinator,

Spot on!
Wise thoughts and words as always.
Great summation.

Dear Cornflower,

I always read your posts and
appreciate your input because you
always give me something to think
about.

I am alarmed and somewhat convinced by your thoughts Pericles. re >>Liberal voters don't like the direction the Party is taking.<<. responding to Foxy.

I have remarked before that Howard era took us backwards. I really fear this for the future!, should Abbott become PM.

In the area's of cultural and social and International affairs, we effectively became, (in International image term's) and reality, a mining and farming based backwater servant of another country. Iraq and so called Free Trade Agreements etc are testament.

We also didn't like boat people, even if their refugee status was legit. Xenophobia was encouraged by Howard, and lot's of money was spent on curricular in education to preserve and support a sort of black shirt view of Australian history .

In the end JH and Co (inc Abbott) were more than a little on the nose and Howard himself, lost his own seat as a serving PM.

Rudd has not done enough yet (nor has he had the time) to reverse the effect's of 11 yrs of Howard. I believe the social and cultural damage done is under-estimated and basically turned us from a progressive nation, into a digressive, inward thinking one.

On the other hand the Govt shows it's own control freak side by proposing to filter the Internet and have a secret list of blocked sites. Ala China Iran etc. I afraid I can't imagine this in a democracy and cant vote for it.

I for one, have got no idea who I'm going to vote for, come election day , but it wont be Tony Abbott.

Thanks Foxy.

I reckon that many people have lost sight of the fact that Abbott was a senior minister in the Howard ministry and had a hand in what went down over those dark, wasted years. Abbott hasn't changed a jot either.

I would like to see some new blood in the Liberal ranks and a bit of soul-searching about policy, not just how to be tricky to get back in.

I note and surely others do too? some who say my opinions are forced on me by my party affiliations are never seen talking about the problems in theirs.
And quotes like crystal ball in reference to my predictions but failure to explain why I am wrong are funny.
Abbott first bought true Conservatives back to him.
Then in fear and with some help from Rudd's back down and some failures from his lead weight ministers like Garrett the fear factor dropped Rudd's polls.
However most went to greens and surely the Abbott say nothing do nothing speech last night is about to drop his polling?
Rudd has lost ground, but understand Rabbott stood in the Parliament and called Rudd WEAK because he did not continue with the very ETS Rabbott killed.
Rudd has shown weakness but Abbott is lie.ing to us constantly.
He never ever will govern Australia.
Liberalism is not dead but it hides until its chance comes one senator may say what he wants but Minchin paid the price for piracy of his party's direction, Abbott has his bill but it is not yet time to pay, it is coming.

Dear Thinker,

I think we all share your concerns very deeply,
however, I still feel that the current Government
should at least be given a second term to do
what they say they will. Then we can judge.
It's too early to do that after only one term.

Dear Cornflower,

We're on the same page with this issue.
I fully agree with what you're saying!

Hehe, I didn't think that Foxy could answer my umm hard question :)

Its ok Foxy, it might be solved now. 7 News tonight reported that
even Hawkey is suggesting that they ditch Kevie and bring in
Julia. That's not a bad suggestion, methinks Kevie has passed
his use by date and should be put out to pasture.

Labor would certainly stand a better chance. Kevie has just
made way to many stuff ups to deserve another chance.

Abbott would need to be recycled as well having again wilted before his shadow cabinet over his looney $10,000 grant to stay-at-home mums. How is that for a big spender and reminiscent of the Howard days? He tried to conceal it too.

It is barely eight weeks since Abbott got rolled over his six-month parental leave plan where he offered to to pay for parents at their current salary, up to a ceiling of $150,000.

Then there are Abbott's many gaffes in the recent past where he continually put his feet in his mouth wanting to be called an iron man, his advice to women to retain virginity and so on. The man needs a minder. God knows what he would sign Australia up for at the behest of the US State Department if he was ever let loose in the US as PM. He is a wild man and erratic, good for mug-cheeky shots but a disaster if judgement or sensitivity is ever called for.

The Liberals really need to return to grass roots and get some new blood and new ideas. Put the old war horses out to pasture, or preferably to the knacker's yard.

Yabby by the time Hawky as you call him was overthrown, few within the party thought of him as one who we need to hear on every issue.
He was not unlike Rudd he sought popularity and the spotlight.
In my view then and now he hunted it.
Maybe Rudd has more substance, more plans for achievable reforms.
He too however as a disruptive senate far from reality and a stolen Conservative movement at war within its self.
That war, hidden at present but actively being fought, will come to be seen by all after Abbott is rejected by the electorate.
After that takes place KNOW some who today claim a victory that will not come for Abbott will say they knew all the time todays polls are while a warning not Representative of the electorates voting intentions.

During Rudd’s first year, with a wishy washy leader of the Liberals, or two, I was all for him. However he lost me, when he thought the minuscule Australian tail, could wag the International dog. He and the Greens think that being a big frog in a small puddle, can transform into being a world leader, and make a skerrick of difference.

He has had nearly three years to make a permanent difference, and has failed dismally. The Parliament of the Commonwealth is still an exclusive drinking club. The State of New South Wales is still a thieves den, of gigantic proportions, closely followed by Victoria and Queensland.

The weak uncertain Federal Leadership of the Labor Party, appears unable to become a National Government. The High Court and Federal Court of Australia are still private clubs in which only lawyers may play. Rudd still does not know what the Australian Constitution really means. Perhaps if it was written in Chinese he would be better equipped to know its contents. It may as well be written in Chinese as far as the Commonwealth public servants are concerned.

If Howard had an unforgivable sin, it was tolerating the fractionalization of Australia into nine Quasi National identities. He did nothing to unite us, and everything to break us into mini Nations.

When a man is on a downslide, and slipping it is hard to turn him around. He is just slip sliding away. No amount of wishful thinking will change him from a loser to a second term winner

Belly, I find it funny that you complained of some here calling K Rudd Krudd.

Now we see you calling Abbott Rabbott. This does not have a natural lead as does K Rudd. Interesting.

Cornflower, you have just given me the best reason to vote Liberal I've heard recently.

The fact that the party rolled Abbott on one of his ideas is a really good thing, for that party, in my view.

The fact that Labor has let Ruddy do so many damn silly things, & do them badly, time after time, is the main strike against them. When you get a fool as leader, you must control him, even if, for other reasons, you don't get rid of him. Our Labor party seems unable to do this.

If the members of his government, & militery had not sat on him, from time to time Churchill would have lost the UK the WW11, long before the yanks came it. Ruddy remindes me of him.

Erratic, overoverconfident & pig headed, with a totally unjustified belief in their mental capacity. What a recipe for disaster, if they will not listen to constructive criticism, & there you have our man.

Yes the ALP leadership rumblings have already started but mainly in the media not openly within the party. If Julia does get a guernsey it will be interesting to see how her leadership style will improve relations with the APS and on matters of implementation.

No talk none of removing Rudd is coming from the party.
And talk of Gillard, EVER leading the ALP is media fantasy not ever from within the party.
Hasbeen nice to know my descriptive and deliberate copying of your disrespect for Rudd is getting to you, my regards and thanks.
Now consider this, if rabbott had not over thrown his partys policy's,remember Howard had similar ones, we could have an ETS now.
Had he been in control we would not have supported the Banks business and family's we would have suffered much more in the recession.
Rabbott who once supported Federal intervention in health would, if you believe him, not have taken action to at least try to fix it.
We would have paid leave for high income mothers, and not least much of the failures rabbott seeks of is from senate in action on Rudd's plans.

Typical lefty attitude Belly, double standards prefered. Like to dish it out, not take it.

That Rabbott must have your union bunny mates worried. They are all ready funding the scare campaign, spending some of the election war chest.

Personally I don't see all that much in him, but the average Ozie seems to like him, going by the polls. I must admit it is refreshing to have a real bloke, with all his faults, rather than a fabrication like Rudd.

Ruddy really excelled himself at Jessica's reception. His speach was so dripping in slime, I had to change channels, before I threw up.

Hasbeen here is why we are different and gee it makes me happy we are.
Lefty? you do not understand do you, my workmates rang on the day that union office burnt.
A joke but knowing me they asked was it me?
I see middle ground, well just left of center as home.
Right winger like you and loony left are my enemy's.
RUDD? great job young lady proud of you never watched because fakes annoy me.
thousands lining the banks said you should not go ,that your parents should be imprisoned now?
Sorry forever admire you but watched something else turned radio of too.
So Kev got sweet did he?
He will grow out of it like Howard and cricket, hey come to think of it EVERY PM did it.
Kev , those who hold that office go to the opening of a match box, lets see it being hospitals bloke.
In NSW a heedless and headless chook runs the other side.
Nice likable American lady runs the government, rest of her cabinet lives under lock and key.
Can't let the people know its still a fly in festered government.
point is victory in both federal and state has been declared Rudd and who is he are over the line.
On election night hasbeen you will be joined by about a hundred who want me to fall on my face, see RABBOTT win.
I will be here gloating.

I knew arjay, the second I saw your post the thread was dead.
I am unsure just why you thought you must post it,or why you think it was other than unacceptable.
I have come back only to ask why some one has not started a thread about phoney Tony Rabbott?

Belly, my politics is not party based, but issue based. I was
a Hawke, Keating, Costello supporter, never a Howard supporter.

I don't try to predict the future, but do take notice of the past.

I learnt out of the last WA election, how voters vote against a
Govt, when they have had a gutful. Alan Carpenter was a smart fellow,
his Govt simply lost touch with the people. All these grandiose
plans and schemes for the city, regional areas missed out.

The liberals hardly had an opposition. Buswell had his scandals,
they had to drag Barnett back from his planned retirement, he had
already given up his seat. Carpenter was kicked out and Barnett
won! All on the back of the regional vote.

That is why I think your comparison does not matter, as much as
you think it does.

Right now, the point has arrived where Rudd is doing some serious
damage to Australia's future, with his super mining tax. That is just
one, of a list of many.

I actually had some hope for Rudd when he won office, thinking that
a smart fellow would see reason. But its not happening Belly and
I really am at the point of saying that this fellow has to go,
before he stuffs the country even more. The super mining tax
was the last straw. I don't care if a drovers dog replaces him,
if he's no good, we'll get rid of him too

yabby truly I think you are wrong.
My lifetime love of the ALP has not blinded me.
Rudd within the party long before his leadership was known as one who was in love with himself.
He however teddy bear looks clean appearance had a task few could carry out.
Unite a party that had fed on its self, that dreadful man, Simon Crean, had kicked every thing he once stood for out the window.
I ducked and weaved far better than I ever did on the football field to get away from the man.
At Goulburn state ALP conference he made a bee line for me I hid in the poker machine room,won $60
Crean helped Latham kill my party, a couple of dills.
I got it wrong I fell for Lathams lies went daily to his web page totally blind sided by his fake front.
On his election day I shook hand with the Nationals booth captain at 8.10 am congrats on your victory and watch my party fall apart.
Kim, what a man IF he had lead that day?
Well we found in fighting and fools had destroyed our hopes and dreams Crean in putting the crown on Latham? never ever forgive them both.

The ALP just like any party has some grubs in it, look this morning at QLD and NSW.
Rudd united his party, set out to get in office, lets be honest he bought conservatives to him.
He too bought failures from with in, Jenny Macline Peter Garrett and that fool who got caught in his relation ships with China.
Pink bats? stupid unforgivable but is it Rudd's fault?
Health can you truly see the senate and states are standing in the way of a better system.
ETS it is poor form for rabbott to forget without his stance we would have one in place.
How much yabby do you know about super tax.
Do you know our returns from Australia's minerals has fell about 20% in the last 20 years.
Are you convince it is 40% on all profit? surely you understand it is not?
Do you understand some of the tax will be used to build roads rail ports infrastructure for? the mining industry!
Look truly look at Abbott, see if you are not blind he can not be trusted, look at his whole history his statements from all his parliamentary life.
He can not be trusted his party is now uncovered as it truly is a fraud lies not policy's grow in the party room.
Within a month a tax plan will come out of this storm in a tea cup, one that miners will not complain about.
yabby mate do you understand one mine owner is in big trouble and blind siding us all with his lie that Rudd is his problem.

Belly do you understand that the Commonwealth will compensate miners whose projects fail to succeed under this legislation. Give me a mining license, Im going prospecting.

Belly, as it happens I know all about the new mining super tax,
I've made it my business to inform myself. As an investor in shares
I also know how mining companies think and why they think as they
do.

The Govt might be full of good intentions, but the fact is that
none of them know much about business. Tanner is claimed to know
the most, he has an arts degree.

Good intentions are simply not enough, for in the real world,
things turn out very different. As was pointed out by sonogloin,
the Govt wants to bankroll 40% of mining projects when they fail.
Do you know what happens when Canberra starts to dish out tens of
millions of $? There will be rorting everywhere, as always happens
when Canberra throws money around.

The big winners from all this will be the Chinese. For they can
get into projects cheaply, use our Govts money to develop mines,
then transfer price their profits out of Australia, little or no
tax paid, profits are made in China. The Aussie taxpayer will
get the rough end of the pineapple. That is the real world!

The most efficient global miners, will look at their global portfolios
and invest elsewhere. I remind you that the 40% super tax is on
top of the 30% company tax.

Belly, if you were being taxed at 58%, ie more then half your
income, I bet your first reaction would be to work less. Its common
human behaviour and has been so around the world.

Now what this Govt is going to do is to clobber the best and most
efficient miners and dish it around, open to widespread rorting.
You'll be amazed how creative accountants can rort this kind of
scheme.

Frankly, they have no idea what they are doing right now and they
are basically stuffing the country and its major cash cow, which
has kept the place afloat, since it got off the sheep's back when
the sheep croaked it.

Sorry bloke, respect you, but you are going of half cocked.
In about a month we will have an understanding and a tax that is fair, bank on it.
My shares are suffering because of the Euro not Rudd.
Some claims by miners are making me giggle like a kid, going of shore to mine what?
often we are the only place to get it.
can you denie our share of the dollar for our minerals has dropped 20% in the last 20 years?

Belly, just today they had John Seymour from Price Waterhouse
Coopers on ABC rural. He says that some mining companies would
have to pay up to 75% in tax, 65-70% more common. Why on earth
should investors bother? They don't need the minerals after all.
Its the Chinese who need them and frankly bloke, you know little
about how the Chinese do business, if you think they are going
to pay a heap of taxes.

Investors in London, who have been financing mining developments
in Australia, see your Rudd more like Noddy in Toyland, so
will simply focus elsewhere. Places like South America are
wide open. Brazil already has the world's largest iron ore
miner.

I have not seen the figures from 20 years ago that you are referring
to, but first I would check as to who put them together. For the
figures that Swan was quoting from, when he annouced all this,
were pure shonk. He quoted royalites, conviently forgetting
company taxes and other taxes that miners pay in Australia.

Belly don't you ever tell me that your union wants highly paid
jobs, for I'm going to rub this one in your face for a very long
time :)