Dear davidf,

You have raised an interesting question, how do newly arrived immigrants approach the rituals of their adopted nations? Do they engage with them in order to understand their importance to those who are native born or are they doing a service in offering us a de-constructed view of the myths we use to define ourselves?

The second question is how should the native born approach new arrivals and their judgements. Do we insist on at least some respect if understanding is not forthcoming? For instance it is obviously impossible for new arrivals to be asked to experience the visceral feelings about a day like ANZAC Day found in third, fourth and fifth generation Australians.

Does this mean they can never become true Australians? Of course not. But there are lessons from our approach to history that inform others about what we like about ourselves and what is important to us. Some of these are not evident at first glance and are often not uniform through different generations.

You said;

“There is a tremendous spirit of shared resolve in the US and in Israel. It makes for a dedicated and effective military.”

I can understand in those countries how there might be the need to drive a “shared resolve” but I feel none of that when I participate in an ANZAC Day ceremony and I'm not sure that many of my fellow Australians would either, even given the way some of our politicians have hyped it.

Do you feel that your experiences with the military cultures of both might have coloured your approach to our day?

Dear csteele,

I don't know what a true Australian is and am not sure I want to be one. I really don't care about Australian myths and ceremonies. I am living here, obeying the laws and participating in the society. That should be enough.

I have been interested in Australian history and have read about the 15 or so military involvements of the Australia military. Australians have killed possibly 20,000 Aborigines in the early days. The massacres have continued until the twentieth century. The most recent one was in 1928 when a WW1 veteran shot 32 Aborigines at Coniston in the Northern Territory after a white dingo trapper and station owner were attacked by Aborigines.

The Australian military helped fight the Maoris in New Zealand. It helped the British imperialists in the Sudan and the Boer War. Right now Australians are helping the Americans in Iraq which was no danger to either the US or Australia. Bush lied the US into war, and Howard went along with it. Obama and Rudd have not withdrawn their forces, and the slaughter continues.

Australia supports the Aidex trade fairs which peddle arms to its neighbours. Australia has trained the Kopassus Division of the Indonesian Army which has committed many atrocities. Australia has supplied aircraft parts to the generals who brutalise Myanmar.

I have consulted to former Senator Woodley in writing legislation which would put effective controls in place on the export of weapons and the training of foreign military so that neither would result in human rights violations.

I can do nothing about Australia's bloody past, but I am concerned with making Australia's future less bloody.

Don't bother me about Anzac Day.

Dear davidf,

With respect I think that your demand “Don't bother me about Anzac Day” is a little rich especially after you have bothered me with your views on just that subject, prompting my initial post.

You also wrote;

“I don't know what a true Australian is and am not sure I want to be one. I really don't care about Australian myths and ceremonies. I am living here, obeying the laws and participating in the society. That should be enough.”

As I have explained I don't think it is fair to expect you to care about Australian myths and ceremonies because they are part of a shared history that you have little connection to, but there is a difference between not caring and denigrating.

I was lucky enough to sit next to Senator John Woodley at a dinner with a number of other Democrat senators in Werribee of all places when he was part of the dairy deregulation inquiry. Incidently he also served in the ADF.

John gave the impression of being a very gracious person, a trait that can sometimes, on occasion, go missing in others.

Dear csteele,

Please excuse my rudeness to you.

Yes, I denigrate Anzac Day because I see it making young people regard past wars as glorious episodes and preparing them for participating in future wars. There is regret and grief at those who have died for Australia. There is little grief for those the Australians fought who also died for their country. Their lives were just as precious as Australian lives.

Senator Woodley is a fine man and much more gracious than I am.

Dear csteele,

Last night I watched a TV program on Kokoda. Japanese died for emperor and country. Australians died for king and country. Both fought on the soil of a land that was not their own. It was a savage battle since the Japanese regarded it as a disgrace to be taken prisoner and killed Australian prisoners. The Australians and Americans retaliated in kind. All three parties now visit shrines to the dead and remember their sacrifices.

Lt. Col. Cullen wanted to make a flanking attack on a Japanese position and take them from the rear. His superiors overruled him and demanded a frontal assault. After two weeks of frontal assaults with great loss of Australian life the higher-ups agreed to Cullen's plan, and the position was taken. Toward the end of the campaign the Japanese were holed up in three villages on the coast. The allies had control of the air and the sea so the Japanese could expect neither reinforcements or supplies. They could have been starved out, but again the high command ordered a frontal assault. Many again lost their lives unnecessarily.

Some of the generals thought that a low casualty rate was evidence of a lack of fighting spirit.

Kokoda along with Anzac is memorable in Australian history. They were both bloody stupid episodes where the soldiers on both sides were just pawns.

I would like to see a world where the prospective fodder on all sides will say, "Hell, no, we won't go." Anzac Day and similar ceremonies makes it more likely that they will go.

Dear davidf,

Consider it excused.

On a different thread I commented.

“I have respect for our law enforcement and armed service personnel. They have sacrificed a portion of their autonomy for the service to their community or country. To put it crudely they have been prepared to shelve part of their natural morality to effectively do their job. Rather than deny this or find a moral justification for an immoral act perhaps we should recognise the sacrifice being made, often on our behalf.”

“We need to realise we have a responsibility as the citizenry to temper the actions of our armed forces.”

I acknowledge the stance you are taking attempts to do just that.