Davidf

I love Australia, I was born here, however that accident of birth doesn't make me patriotically myopic any more than it makes me somehow superior to people who happened to be born in other nations. There are more equitable countries than Australia.

My father went to war for this nation, more out of youthful exuberance than patriotism. I know little of his experiences, what I do know is that he refused to have anything to do with the RSL and never marched on Anzac day. He also refused to have anything to do with guns; not even to go duck shooting with some of his mates. He ignored the jibes that he was happy to eat the ducks but not the shooting of them. I can remember him repeating to his duck-shooting friend that he would never ever own a gun.

War is conducted by old men in bomb shelters: it is about power not humanity.

I am not saying there are not times when self defence is absolutely necessary, but full scale destruction of men, women and children should never be necessary, not while we have the means of communication and the intelligence we possess. Yet such abilities are consistently ignored in favour of ideologies: abstract beliefs triumphing over innocent lives.

As for Anzac, I don't get it, my father who had every reason to attend, didn't get it, nor do many people; Australian or not. I'll leave the final words to Paul Keating:

"Paul Keating, launching Graham Freudenberg's Churchill and Australia said Australia didn't have to prove anything. It already had the highest standard of living in the world, along with female suffrage, pensions, exemplary health care, a literate working class, good writers, athletes, musicians, painters, cartoonists. What was there to prove? That we could perish bravely in war, that great game of drongos?

'I have never gone to Gallipoli,' Keating said, 'and I never will. Kokoda is more my speed. There we fought, and won, a long battle that made a difference to our nation's future. That saved us from something, as Gallipoli never did.'"

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2879215.htm

david f & others,

NO NO NO the 9/11 abonination was an insurance scam resulting in a $US 3T payout and triger a reason to go to war with Iraq for oil

the truth will in time come out, just think about Bld #7 on that same day and seek out the many fine doc's made about the subject

JMCC.The truth is coming out.http://www.ae911truth.org/
According to Dr Alan Zabrovsky many in the US Military now know and they are not happy at all.They are blaming Israel but it is more complicated than that.

Notice that there are confusing signals as to the relationship with Israel.Congress just signed a letter not to criticise Israel and have signed up for the sanctions on Iran.Israel want the US to invade Iran so I think Congress is opting for sanctions, the lesser of two evils to appease them.This could spark off WW3.

Obama and more particularily Admiral Mullen has been critical of Israel.Obama is not reacting as they had expected.So we now have the two camps in the USA.Congress and the legislators have have the power with reluctant military and Obama with new insights,on the horns of a dilemma.

Israel is pushing for war and they might just get up to their dirty tricks to make it happen.

Not the most compelling of sources, Arjay, at first glance

>>According to Dr Alan Zabrovsky many in the US Military now know and they are not happy at all.They are blaming Israel...<<

Alan Sabrovsky (note the spelling for the next time you refer to him) presents as a dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semite.

Here's an interview where he outlines his position.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_911zion_02.htm

"...a large majority of American Jews give their allegiance to a foreign country... their allegiance is to a foreign country, they are traitors"

At least he's honest about where he stands.

But more to the point, how does he inform us that the US Military "knows" that Israel was behind 9/11?

"I have had long conversations over the past two weeks with contacts at the Army War College, at the Headquarters Marine Corps, and I have made it absolutely clear in both cases that it is 100% certain that 9/11 was a Mossad operation"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this sound as though Sabrovsky is "making it absolutely clear", and not vice versa?

Let's dig a little further.

"I've had some long discussions with people up there, and there's some really, really unhappy people."

Interviewer: "What are they saying"

"Astonishment. The first thing, Mark, is astonishment. They didn't know. They truly didn't know. And these are not unintelligent people. They really didn't know. And the next statement is rage. Real rage"

Don't know about you Arjay, but on the "evidence" presented, I'd say this guy has an agenda, that he's pushing like crazy.

But somehow I don't think the agenda is to find the truth, but to stir up animosity against Israel in any way he can.

Do you have any particular reason to believe what he is saying?

Apart from the fact that you would like it to be true, of course.

But let's leave the last word for Sabrovsky.

"...I'll tell you - I have a dream, as Martin Luther King, Jr. once said, and my dream is that the 5th and 6th US fleets take Israel and cream it. And that's the end of it."

Nice.

Pericles,as far as Zabrovsky goes,I've already voiced my displeasure at his comments on that site.He could be attempting to discredit and derail the peace/truth movements.The Truth movements are staying well clear of his comments.So there could be another agenda.However others are confirming that basically what he says about the military awareness is correct.This is a double edged sword.I am in no way backing his sentiments.There is too much hate out there.

There would have been only a small number of people involved in planning 911.You cannot blame a particular group entitrely.Many would have come along for the ride since they would benefit financially.Tarpley calls it atrophism,the way a plant reacts to light or a symbiotic relationship that happens almost unconsciously.

My main concern is stopping a war with Iran.What is the hurry with imposing sanctions when Israel has 200 nukes and Iran has yet to get one? Even Admiral Mullen says that Iran is no threat to America.Israel could decimate Iran if it wished.

Study carefully the words of Admiral Mullen and General Patraeus, of what is said and not said.

The Peace Movement needs to get off it's backside and create awareness.

Dear davidf,

Thank you for your post. It reminded me of a fourth form ANZAC day assembly at school. A friend of mine who was a Yugoslavian immigrant was complaining to those within earshot about having to stand in the cold and listen to the speeches. “This is absolute rubbish” he said' “Anyway what is the big deal you lot lost”. Even then, in my fickle youth I was able to say in reply that it wasn't a celebration but a commemoration. I'm not sure it lessened his perplexity nor will it do much for yours but it did set me thinking more deeply about the ritual.

Your perspective on 9/11 and Hill 60 is of course a valid one, particularly from a journeyman. One might even say it is a godly one. How would he weigh 10,000 violent deaths against 3,000? One suspects he might put as much stead in the anguish of the mother of a young, conscripted, German soldier as that of a Twin Towers victim's family.

Your beef it seems is with tribalism, the kind that leads to war and feelings of superiority. However tribalism like most things has its positives too and one of those is a shared history. It is part of what makes us human and if it is to be regarded as a foible by yourself so be it but I am happy to claim a measure of it.

Cont...