As far as I'm concerned, the relatives of the family killed in the Canberra car chase crash should be going after the Judge who failed to imprison the driver after his previous offence. The police were doing their job - the Judge did not do his / hers and this family would be alive otherwise.

Yer they should start a blood feud against the drivers family too.
How about we execute all road drivers who breach the road rules!
Bring back drawing and quartering I say, burning at the stake for every one who transgresses *my* sense of correctness. Clearly a victim must be found.
You bring the rope I'll light the crosses.....Wait, what are we talking about?

Were you in the court at the time? are you a lawyer who was involved?
Will it ring the victims back?
Sorry old chap but you had better post more details or else you simply look like a hypo critical reactionary.
There is no doubt that this event was a tragedy that shouldn't have happened but singling out the judge in the absence of real proof, that the judge acted inappropriately is pure emotionalism...yours.

victim mentality has led us to blaming police when a repeat offender thief kills innocent people. what a joke! Next time someone steals your car I suppose you would like them just to wave goodbye.

Here's a link for those that haven't seen it:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/onlookers-stunned-by-fatal-scene/1782453.aspx

I live nearby. I can attest it was a particularly nasty accident where a lead-foot repeat car stealer makes a run for it from police and runs a couple of red lights smashing into a family going about their business.

AT the end of the day, the driver is the one responsible so I'm not unhappy that he died. As to further blame, I'm not in a position to make a comment. But, there is definitely a trend away from jailing people as a deterrent and giving them a warning instead. I've also noticed more bad driving since the accident, which is a worry. You'd think it would be the opposite.

Deterrence definitely has its place, but getting the best balance between that and giving people official warnings is the problem.

Dead right Spinner, this judge, & all other judges should be made responsible for all post bail crimes committed by any crim they let out on bail. The same should go for parole boards.

If these idiot judges had to wear the consequences of their indulgences, rather than the general public, they might just start to give out a bit of justice.

The poor cops will get the backlash, which rightly belongse to the damn fool judge. They are sick of having to catch each crook half a dozen times, only to see them back on the street next day.

Is it that the pollies are bringing pressure on judges to let these crims out, to keep the watch house numbers down? Of course the judge wants promotion, so they don't want to rock the boat.

Or is it that after half their legal carreer is spent touting for the crims business, the judges have more in common with the crims, than the public?

What ever it is, the most ridicules thing you see every day, is some fool judge cancelling some crooks licence, for a further 2 years, when the charge is 6 counts of driving with a cancelled licenc. What's more, the damn fools do it with a straight face, & some condescending attitude that they are dispensing justice.

What ever it is, judges are the weak link, making our streets much less safe than half a century ago.

Tragic waste of young lives.

I feel sorry for the police (as well as everyone else involved).

Runner is right - what is it that the community expects the coppers to do. We can't know how many tragedies have been *prevented* by police giving chase and managing to stop someone who is speeding.

One of the news reports stated that the young offender was injured in a car-theft road accident just about a year ago. His family is now also railing at the coppers for 'causing' his death. If their attitude back then was as now, that the young man wasn't responsible for his actions, then sad to say but I think some of the culpability for this sad event belongs to them more than anyone else.

The young bloke stole a car (again); the young bloke drove at speed (again) and he wasn't brave enough to cop the consequences but tried to outrun the police (again). Not the fault of any law enforcement.

There is an electronic tracking device that police might be able to use in the future, apparently. Maybe technology will bring a solution.

The young thief had a dreadful record.
His passengers family have a strange idea of what the community wants of its police.
It is said he kept driving at great speed after police called it of, I ask if he had kidnapped passenger would police still be expected to call it off?
Remember always, police would have some, if they did not chase who would say they let the community down.
The tragic event was started by a criminal, the bleating by some is not representative of community views.

Lots of letters and reports in the Canberra Times on this today. It has raised the whole issue of police car chases again.

Police need to be able to chase offenders. The police only followed this driver because he was driving erratically so even without the police chase who knows what the outcome would have been.

Higher deterrence in the form of an extra sentence for high speed chases - maybe add an extra five years to the other offences with a non-parole period.

I can understand a Judge giving a young car theft offender one chance or in the case of other minor crime depending on the circumstances but offenders appear to be receiving numerous 'chances' often, as one police friend confided, some having been before a Judge over ten times for house breaking offences.

Prison is not always the answer, sometimes prisons can exacerbate criminal tendencies but at least the offenders are off the streets for the period they are incarcerated. Part of the problem is not enough prison places, so Judges tend to sentence for the most heinous crimes.

This is not good enough. Stop funding wah wah projects and vote buying programs and build more prisons if necessary, particularly suited to minor crimes and rehabilitation of young offenders while there is still some hope for change.

Firstly, looking at THIS case in isolation and in the context of THIS family who have been killed, there's a timeline that leads to the crash - ie. the guy offends (has an accident at that time too but that's largely irrelevant to my point) - he's NOT imprisoned and we see the result the other night. IF he was cooling his heels in prison for 2 or 3 years the way he should have been, THIS family WOULD be alive right now... - and as far as I'm concerned, the court that let him off last year effectively signed a death warrant for this couple and their baby.

I'm not saying the guy wouldn't have killed someone else once released in a couple of years - I'm not entering into "ifs / buts / maybes" type discussion - I'm saying that it's a FACT that THIS family WOULD be alive right now.

By "go after" I of course meant take legal action or at least publically point the finger of major responsibility where it lies.

I have the utmost respect for Police and appreciate the VERY difficult job they do - once again THEY TOO have been screwed by the idiot judiciary of this country.

On the subject of pursuits - I think there may need to be some changing of rules. I'm thinking perhaps if the police arent able to bring it to a conclusion within a few minutes - ie. evidently don't manage to get the "upper hand" pretty much immediately then it shouldn't be continued. The difficult thing of course is that this kind of accident doesn't necessarily have to happen after hours of chase - it COULD just as easily happen in the first minute or two - and police backing off doesn't mean an offender will (I strongly suspect the idiot in this case would probably have been going as fast as the car was capable and running red lights even if he hadn't seen a single cop).

I think judges should be liable for any damage to the community caused by repeat offenders that they let off- possibly as an accessory to the crime if they were found to be excessively negligent in their duties- in the same way doctors are liable for botched operations or prescriptions.

The only problem is that you would need another judge to find him guilty- and judging from past scandals involving members of the legal community and how other members flocked to their aid, they seem rather more supportive of their own fraternity than the average peasant.

I wonder if you have considered. The inevitable conclusion of an attitude like this would be?

More desperate attempts to avoid capture.

More people turning to other careers other than judges. Our court system is over burdened now

We would need more jails. This probably why the court didn't lock him up the first time. Every thing has a cost. Again they are over crowded now. How are we going to pay and staff them....higher taxes, less services...which?

They would always hand out maximums, (hanging judges), on everything serious or trivial! they would be more concern about their own careers etc.

I understand the anger but focus. We need a solution beyond the instant knee jerk reactionary 'somebody needs to pay' the driver the culprit is dead.

I disagree examinator- again, it would reflect doctors still working despite being held liable for any damages from errors- like most jobs I'd imagine.

One could set standards so that an official account of likelihood to reoffend could be made by a neutral observer with qualifications to make the statement (a psychologist) or some parameters to determine if the judge acted negligently.

I personally don't think we should let our legal standards be determined by cost-cutting- or arguably there is little point having a court at all. If it came down to cutting costs, simply cut out the minor offenses from court time- eg legalize drug use and have the courts refuse to hold trials for petty vandalism etc offenses so they have more room.

If a potentially serious offense is let off for ANY reason (ie one that endangers other people, burglary, fraud or company malpractice) then there really isn't much service being done by this group to justify it even being there.

What a wacky lot we are. We expect police to stop crime but we criticise them when they try to.
How many of us would do a better job of policing?
If we get a crook cop, give heaps. When they try to protect us don't whinge.

Update on the attack on my son, by a bunch of outlaw "LEBS" in Sydney. Incidentally the cops said the chance of catching them was about zero. They spent less than 5 minutes taking a statment because of that.

He was attacked by 4 of them, who jumped out of a car, while he was walking home from the train, after work.

He was on the ground, getting kicked probably to death, when a couple of cars stopped, & the gutless sh1t took off. They had not yet tried to rob him, they were still inflicting punishment, prior to that.

Our wonderful medical profession gave him a hand full of Panadol, & a day off.

Now, about 3 months later, after he complained of headaches, & blured vision, when tired, they took some X-rays.

They found he had 4 fractures of his skull, with part of one side moved out of place, causing pressure on his eye. AS these have partly healed, he is going to have a major opperation, where his skull will have to be refractured [with a hammer & chisel], & 3 titanium plates incerted. This requires two weeks in hospital, & 8 off work to recuperate. It's a good thing we breed them tough up here.

While this was going on, he read of a similar case, Five "Leb" thugs, & one victim. The bloke spent 5 weeks in hospital. They got $150 for their trouble.

The judge gave 3 of them suspended sentences, one got one month, & the leader 3 months. How long do you think they would have given the victim, if he has seriously imjured one of his attackers. My guess would be at least a year.

If my sons attackers were by some mischance, actually caught, I wonder if they would get a sentence as long as my son is going to spend getting "repaired", or would some bl00dy fool judge find extenuating circumstances, to let them off with a sever warning.

Continued.

These animals want to rob their victims, but they are more interested in "getting whitey", & causing pain.

Examinator, I'm not interested in trying to rehabilitate this scum. You can't turn a wild dog, into anything worth having, I just want them off the street, long term.

Some WW11 POW type camps would do, preferably, somewhere hot & nasty. They should be locked up until they are too dam old to hurt anyone.

Perhaps we could get some Indonesian jail managers to come & run the things, to make sure the bleeding hearts didn't turn them into the holliday resorts ours are becomming.

Hasbeen
Please Don't respond to me there is no discussion with you.
Please don't involve me in your rants

King Hazza

There is no infrastructure to support your proposal.

I see your point about doctors more specifically Psychologists but there is/are no test(s) that can define this with the accuracy as would be needed.

Psychiatrists and deal with long term patients.
Take job aptitude tests they are run by psychologists and they can only define specific skills needed. Even they have large error factors.

My fear is that we will happen will be like GPs you go there for a pain you get referred to specialists and have a multiplicity of tests to cover all bases. This costs big time. Because of the risks there is medical indemnity insurance and some i.e. Obstetricians are are over burdened with premiums and no one really wants the job.

There are procedures that address judicial incompetence. In the US there is an industry suing DRs if we open our judges to this all the above will follow.

Hasbeen

It is sickening to hear what happened to your son. Here in the West old and blind people have been copping it of late. Usually it it done by white people with tanned skin(the new pc way of avoiding the truth). Most of these cowards hunt in packs and some are as young as 7 or 8 years old. Personally I have had 3 woman beaten senseless in my front yard and not a charge laid. As a society we are reaping what we have sown by allowing certain people groups to grow up with huge chips on their shoulders which in their mind gives them the licence to commit the most cowardly acts. I hope your son makes a full recovery if that is possible. The inaction or inability of police to act is a very troublesome thing. Though I in no way condone what happened in Cronulla you can see clearly why.The left elistist really have much to answer for.

Examinator, if you don't want anyone to respond to you, stop bleeding all over the internet.

It is idiot bleeding hearts, like you, who are totally responsible for the the mess we are getting even deeper into every day. Then you get your knickers in a knot, when you are proven wrong. You disgust me.

If you can rant mate, so will I, & I, with my son, have a bit more cause than you.

Thank you runner. It is a reasonably dangerous operation he has to face, caused almost as much by medical incompetence as our "Leb" mates, but he is OK now, apart from headaches.

He does not like the idea of some doctor, bashing him with a hammer, then digging around in his brain. As he said, lets hope this one is better than the first one, who sent him home with his pack of Panadol.

Hasbeen you and your son have my sympathy and understanding.
I share your anger and concern too.
And like it or not I too think judges, magistrates and all who sit in judgment should be Representative of us.
I very much feel costs of prisons is the most usually used excuse to not give justice to victims.
I could not live with myself if ever I did not feel anger at such as your story.
Is it so very wrong to understand some, from every race, are while young more like animals than human?
Youth culture has its bad apples your case highlights one well know problem that in No way is anything other than true.

Thank you Belly, I'm sure he'll be fine. It would appear we have more in common, the more we learn.

He will be quite well prepared in future. Any one silly enough to attack him will bite off a bit more than they expect.

The planners continually bleat about wanting people to use public transport, but if it's not safe for a fit young bloke to walk home from the railway station, in daylight, how would you like your wife, or daughter to be doing it at 6PM, on a winter night.

I'm glad I left Sydney in the early 70s, it is not a place I would want to live today.

Hasbeen - best wishes to your son and yourself - godspeed to as full a recovery as possible and a safe future.

examinator - YOU are just as intractible and unreasonable as you accuse others - you seemingly mindlessly spout all the "usual" bleeding heart PC platitudes and CRAP that have led us to ever worsening ruin. You also misrepresent people which is very disrespectful (I never suggested street lynchings etc. - utter rubbish) and YOU are the one who indulges in "first strike" personal attacks in discussions where people are otherwise discoursing the issue without attacking each other. YOU end up being the lowest denominator in many discussions and I don't hold a very high opinion of you as a person I'm afraid.

Being contrary is NOT the same as actually having an opinion, or a personality, or indeed a spine - you're boring, predictable, unpleasant and offer nothing constructive so please go away.

Some more facts have come out about both parties in the crash in today's Canberra Times.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/crash-victim-faced-car-theft-charges/1784630.aspx

It looks as though the men in both cars who were killed were mates who BOTH had a background stealing cars. It looks more and more like some true justice may have been done here.

In a perverse sort of way, maybe the judges and police did get it right after all.

It is this rabid post that is offensive.

"I'm not interested in trying to rehabilitate this scum. You can't turn a wild dog, into anything worth having, I just want them off the street, long term.

Some WW11 POW type camps would do, preferably, somewhere hot & nasty. They should be locked up until they are too dam old to hurt anyone."
BTW My fater was on the Burma railway and Hasbeen's comment was offensive, over the top and disrespectful for those who lived through it.
True to form it is only comments like the above I don't wish to associated with.

Spinner,
Since when is being objective intractable. Nor was I talking about
rehabilitation as was assumed by Hasbeen.
I didn't say you were advocating Lynch mobs! I said that. It was a satirical comment in an attempt to show you the superficial (revengeful nature of your suggestion.

You're right Examinator, I should not have referred to these "lebs" as wild dogs. Wild dogs are rarely cowardly curs.

As for the POW thing, I have yet to meet amn old soldier who is not disgusted at some of the slime we have let into the country, they suffered so much to defend. He would probably agree that what he suffered is too good for this filth.

Perhaps it's not a bad thing that some of them, like my dad, are not around to see what a mess we have made of their legacy.

I can understand your anger Hasbeen, given the horrible experience of your son - nonone should have to experience that kind of violence.

However based on your generalisations about Lebanese, and on the basis of this thread's car chase scenario, all Australians must be car thieving, police evading hoons.

With respect people only remark on the race of a perpetrator when the race is not their own.

RobP: << It looks more and more like some true justice may have been done here. >>

And what exactly did the baby do to deserve the death penalty?

Hasbeen - sorry to hear about your son and glad to hear he's on the mend, but what does the assault on him and the purported ethnicity of his attackers have to do with the Canberra case? Other than the fact that they're both crimes, I don't see the connection.

One thing to consider is that if you send a car thief or other petty criminal to prison, you can pretty well guarantee he'll come out a more hardened criminal with a high probability of reoffending. At least with probation, there's some chance of him seeing the error of his ways and ceasing to offend.

CJ writes
'One thing to consider is that if you send a car thief or other petty criminal to prison, you can pretty well guarantee he'll come out a more hardened criminal with a high probability of reoffending.'

on the other hand
if you don't send a car thief or other petty criminal to prison, you can pretty well guarantee he'll re offend and cause much more harm to the public as just witnessed. Just look at the number of offenders out on parole who cause pain to others. Some drink drivers have lost their licence up to 8 times and yet it does not stop them driving. Check out Singapore and you will see how pathetic the 'let off lightly theory' works.

The really sad thing is that if you get convicted for fishing in a 'green zone', Just plain old fishing, even if you happen to drift there, unintentionally, then you automaticly get tagged as a criminal and have a criminal record for life.

So the question is, why did this looser get off for stealing cars, when many people now have criminal records for fishing in a green zone?

Just an example of how bizar the laws have become in this country.

examinator - you show AGAIN exactly my point: my post WASN'T "superficial" and it certainly wasn't "vengeful" - you made some BIG assumptions based on my using the term "go after". You need to be careful about judging others' comments by your own (low? ) standards.

My intention was to make the point that this family would be alive today (indeed the killer himself would actually be alive) if the court had done it's job properly.

Want to kill someone? - just figure out their driving patterns and drive into them at an intersection - even run a red light to do it if necessary - historically our idiot courts will fine you about $600 and suspend your licence for a while. Much cheaper than paying a professional hit man..

>>And what exactly did the baby do to deserve the death penalty?<<

CJ,

Nothing. I did only say there was *some* justice in the situation.

Spinner,
I take your point.
I was looking at the practical consequences. Of going outside the systems that exist.

Don't get me wrong These deaths were a total waste of human life. But your solution would cause more problems than it would fix.

Reality dictates while some may feel that had the judge locked up the driver in the first case that would have solved the issue.
Both CJ and I doubt it statistic show that he is effectively correct jail will only move the problem. Chances are that same person will come out and act as a driver for more serious crimes...can you guarantee that he wouldn't have become a bigger menace in five years time.Check the relative recidivist and crime escalation rates they are frighteningly going the wrong way. So what next?

Can you guarantee that judges wouldn't simply waste more money by all becoming 'hanging' judges. Sure I would agree that something needs to be done but what? making judges more hash because they might make a mistake? Will it stop crime? there are a million practical issues to consider. Am I soft on crime? hardly! I lost a cousin and his girlfriend , I *saw* a hoon kill a friend of mine by nudging he car off the road up a telegraph pole ....he escaped on a technicality.

Hasbeen,
I feel for your boy and I wish him the best.

I don't know who you have been talking to, but both my dad and best mate on the Burma railway, made careers out of being in charge of jails.

Neither wanted to recreate changi or 'the railway' for anyone. True they had little time for the 'bad bastards' and could be harsh but they tried save the "mistakers". As dad said every one deserves a fair go.

I've talked about this before. Both my sons (17 16) were bashed and admitted to hospital one with serious injuries, after defending their (14)little sister and friend from being attacked by a bunch of thugs.

The only thing that stopped them being stabbed, was two army boys on leave that were passing by.

NB there were 30 witnesses (good solid citizens) no body helped or came forward.

BTW The attackers were all Anglo Saxon Aussies two were know to my eldest. these thugs got away with the serious assault, largely through the attending police officers "breach of discipline". They weren't interested in taking details etc because “fights like this don't usually go to court”.

By the time I got involved the thugs disappeared (leaving home in two case). 3 years later one was charged but because he was a minor (2 weeks shy of 18) at the time he got a slap on the wrist...

Meanwhile one of the others threatened my injured then 16 yo son at the train station coming home late at night on the train. The other one 26 ish with knife got away

Do I now hate Aussies, the police? Not a lot of point. Mind you those officers one still serving better not come to me for a reference.

Oh I forgot. One of the Soldier boys was....you guessed it a “Lebo” may his god bless him.

I think that Judges who speed should be jailed.