Severin challenged me on a different thread to discuss male bullying. She made the point that males on this site discuss bullying of males by females but not often bullying by other males. I've been pondering the request/challenge and my own experiences. It could be a useful discussion, but I don't want to take it up on the thread where the challenge was issues.

Antiseptic recently recounted some overall impressions of his time in a boarding school, I'm hoping that he can contribute to this thread. I'm also hoping that those who choose to share their experiences won't be subjected to sarcastic comments which misrepresent what's been shared for the sake of cheap points scoring.

I suspect that my own experiences of being bullied are very different to the stereotypes. I was always tall for my age so generally I did not experience bullying from peers who were bigger. Those experiences I recall came from smaller people who seemed to gain some peer approval from hitting the bigger guy. They could generally hit me with some safety knowing that if I defended myself it would be assumed that I was the aggressor because I was bigger and they were also fairly safe because I was not much into fighting.

As an adult bullying by other males has been very rare. Generally I get more choice about who I spend time with than as a child and as an adult I have the option of calling the police if I'm assaulted which I'd never considered as an option as a child or teenager.

As an apprentice I experienced limited amounts of other forms of bullying from older tradesmen but it was never severe. Mostly humor getting out of hand and not as far as I could tell with any intent to harm.

I've seen the odd boss be a bully but nothing severe and not where I've been the target, female friends dealing with female bosses have reported far more personal bullying than anything I've seen happening to male colleagues.

R0bert

I am afraid RObert while I believe it is wrong it is in our nature and happens far too often.
Like pups playing or young bulls fighting it appears males do find fun in picking on the weakest link.
Ganging up Even and going well past good behavior both in childhood youth and some continue into adult hood.
All in good fun some claim.
But it seems instinct action for most.
Others can tell us why we bring this from our evolution but I can tell of dreadful pain bought to both sides by these actions.
Job loss, even in extremes loss of life as adults do things they would be upset if their children did.
Bullying, from any sex is a weakness and one we should not allow.

Belly I've heard some terrible stories of bullying and wondered what it must be like for someone where it plays a major part in their day to day life. My own experiences have been relatively mild but I know that's not the case for all.

I can only recall one instance of a serious bashing where as a young grade eight kid newly arrived at boarding school a rather small grade twelve boy got a couple of mates to hold me while he laid into me. He seemed to object to having a grade eight boy taller than he was. In his case the physical assault was a one off and I don't recall much other trouble with him.

The thing that seemed most troubling about bullying in the period I was growing up was that for the most part teachers turned appeared to turn a blind eye to it.

As a note to all I'd rather this thread be used for the topic of male bullying of males rather than turn it into a gender war. There is scope for someone to start a thread about female bullying of females and plenty of threads have already included discussion of cross gender bullying.

R0bert

R0bert

Many thanks for starting this topic.

<<< The thing that seemed most troubling about bullying in the period I was growing up was that for the most part teachers turned appeared to turn a blind eye to it. >>>

As a female bullied by females I can agree that teachers frequently are myopic when faced with bullying. When forced to take action often both participants (bully and victim) are punished. Which does nothing to help the victim's sense of self and often reinforces the bullying behaviour. I was never bullied by males at school - teased occasionally but that is all. I do not wish to divert the topic any further than that.

We often hear instances of "hazing" in the military and at single-sex boarding schools. Here is an opportunity to talk about personal experience in the safety of anonymity.

Belly, you are always a gutsy trooper, when do you think a bit of teasing turns to intimidation? And why?

Severin "When forced to take action often both participants (bully and victim) are punished."

My experience was more often that I was punished but not those who had been repeatedly assaulting me. I was bigger therefore according to the stereotypes it must have been my fault. I recall very clearly one incident when after being caned I was asked why I was fighting a smaller child. When I explained what had been going on over a long period (some months of this particular kid punching me then running off much to the delight of his buddies and my embarrassment plus a regularly sore chin). I'd been caned for fighting back once, he got a short talk for repeated assaults.

R0bert

At school once I stuck up for a weaker kid who was getting bullied by a couple of "toughs". When at the train station going home that afternoon, one of them grabbed me from behind while the other threw a couple of punches. Nothing serious but it was designed to reinforce their "dominance" of the situation.

I agree with the comments about teachers. In my experience, they were hopeless at dealing with the problem. Unless it was an issue where they could "get a win", they would do nothing. I remember a young, female Chinese teacher who was on the duty roster to look after the bus queue, getting a lot of over-enthusiastic racist put-downs. Nothing was ever done about that either. I doubt if it was even reported.

The worst employer of all in respect of bullying is the Public Service. All care and no responsibility should be their motto. Because that's all they deliver: soothing words in policies that have absolutely no bite, because to do something would mean dumping on their own peers. Can't have that, just think about the lack of career opportunities later on.

At work, the bullying is much more subtle. It takes the form of being given the cold shoulder or passive aggressive behaviour when they want you to do something. There's two ways of dealing with this. Smash into it head-on and tell the perp what they're doing and that you're onto them. Or give it back to them in exactly the same way they dished it out, with interest. I've found that people who have attacked me at work with a more than moderate degree of commitment have come off second best, while others have modified their behaviour after blunting their weapon on a rock presumably.

Overall, to solve the bullying problem means to understand what you are dealing with. As bullies get their rocks off picking on people that can't fight back, there's ultimately only one way to deal with them. Mobilise the rest of society to get off its lazy arse and take the spear out of their hand.

Dear Robert,

I've experienced a severe case of bullying
at work which to this day I still bear
the scars. However it was from
two females - so I won't discuss my case
on this thread of yours which is about
male bullying of males. I also experienced
bullying from my female maths teacher -
who took a great delight in mispronouncing
my name at school - and having the class
laugh at me - to this day I also have a
mental block when it comes to mathematics.
She tried to convince me that - I was stupid,
and totally worthless.
Luckily, I was able to move out of
her class.

My sons have experienced male bullying. It was
when we enrolled them in a private all male
Catholic school. And after one particularly bad
incident - in which our younger boy came home
severely beaten - that we asked the school for
an explanation of the incident - the only
resolution we received was a letter telling us
to more or less mind our own business, and how
dare we bring into question the authority of the
school and teachers. We ended up taking our children
from that school - and have never regretted doing so.

My son later told us a story about a boy named Witt
who gave the wrong answer to a simple question.
The teacher said, "With a little more brains you'd
be a half-Witt." The class burst out in thunderous
laughter. The boy blushed and went meekly to his seat.

From that time on, the children teased Witt
mercilessly. They followed the teacher's lead and
improvished on it. They called him, "Half-bright,"
"Half-idiot," et cetera. They made his life
unbearable, until he finally also changed schools.

That particular teacher is still there teaching as
far as I know.

A teacher, like a surgeon, must never slash haphazardly.
The damage may be permanent.

There is nowhere to turn when a teacher either participates or goes so far as to instigate bullying.

Do male teachers use bullying as a technique of 'toughening up' a boy they regard as too shy or quiet? What purpose do these adult bullies serve if any?

I understand why children bully others: its about power and control, compensation for something lacking in their own lives or just imitating their parents. Unfortunately, bullying is a behaviour many do not grow out of.

When bullies are young men:

Where 'victims/initiates' are forced to endure hazing? For acceptance into a club/gang/social situation? How do males cope with this type of group bullying?

If one is an adult white male of reasonably athletic proportions, then surely there is no need for these men to bully. They already hold a greater status, which others have to earn. They can walk into a car-repair yard and will not be treated as ignorant (unless they reveal themselves as mechanically challenged) but at least the assumption is there. When someone is already the alpha-male why would they need to continue intimidating behaviour?

This is difficult, keeping the topic to male on male bullying, when I know there is a whole painful world of female on female bullying and I really want to avoid cross gender bullying; there's enough of that already on OLO.

To R0bert, Belly, Robp and other men who have yet to post, what do you do when you see someone being bullied?

R0bert has already mentioned not being believed. I have experienced the same. If this has been the case, how would this increase the difficulty of not going to someone else's aid?

I raise these questions knowing there is no ideal solution, but to create thought and maybe some people can talk about the action they have taken. Like changing schools - which is sad - the bully should be the one to leave, but this rarely happens.

In John Clarke's book, "Working with Monsters", the author admits that there may be no other course of action than removing oneself from the situation.

My brothers went to an all male Catholic School with some very rough Christian Brothers.

While my younger brother was excellent at sport, he was dyslexic and had hard times academically. The Brothers bullied him mercilessly in the classroom, sending him to stand in a corner for hours because he could not say his times tables like the other boys. Some of the other boys bullied him for being 'dumb'.

My older brother was hopeless at sports and was bullied by all the Brothers and the other boys for not being 'manly' enough to play football or basketball well. He was considered a 'nerd'.

Eventually my parents pulled them out of this college and sent them to the local co-ed college, where they both thrived.

One is now an electronic engineer and the other is a chef. They both still bear the emotional scars of that early bullying.

However, they are certainly doing better than many of those loving Christian Brothers who were eventually jailed for child abuse.

>>To R0bert, Belly, Robp and other men who have yet to post, what do you do when you see someone being bullied?<<

Severin,

It depends on the situation. I'll be honest and say whether I do something or not depends on how close it comes to hurting me. And that is balanced up against the odds that you have of actually winning the battle. I'm not really into being a martyr for a cause, so I will mostly wait for an opportunity rather than take up a battle I can't win. That goes for helping both myself and someone else I see getting bullied.

The reality is if you take up a cause you can't win, you run the risk of having things get worse.

PS: I did once report a public servant bus driver for aggressive driving and driving past gaping passengers at stops who didn't hail the bus even though his was about the only one that serviced that stop. Particularly gruff and arrogant piece of work, he was, who got up my nose. I remonstrated with him when he took off too fast from a stop and simultaneously did a hard right turn after just picking me up, slamming me into a pole. When he was about to let me off at my stop, he insisted that, as it was his bus, I had to apologise to him. When I apologised to him for my tone, I said he should apologise for ignoring his passengers. He didn't want to concede the point so I wrote a letter to the Government and he got a talking to and a note on his file. The look on his face when he next saw me was pure gold.

My father was a company trouble shooter, so we moved about a bit, to branches doing badly. I went to 17 different schools. AS a new chum, from out of town, the local boss kid, [bully perhaps], would have to assert his authority, in the first day or two.

After I came home bawling a few times, my father, who was into such stuff, taught me to box, & when that didn't work that well, to brawl. Over the years I then bashed up quite a few bullies, on my first day, at a new school.

When I then showed no interest in taking over the bully roll, they then had no idea of how to deal with me. After a while they would ignore me. I became a competent footballer, & cricketer as a way to establish myself in a new school. Luckily, the family got sick of moving, & my last 4 years were in one school. What heaven.

Years later, when my daughter got off the school bus crying, 2 days in a row, I took quick action.

The next day, with a borrowed 15 Ft stockwhip coiled over my sholder, I climbed onto the bus. The drivers face was a sight. Looking vaguely down the bus, at all the kids, I said something about taking flys off horses with the whip, & something about taking ears off, too.

My daughter was never bullied again, & the driver used to tell the kids that played up, that Mr Hasbeen wouldn't like it.

Nothing like a reputation, even if only contrived

Severin it depends how confident in making the call about bullying vs a mutual conflict and what options I have available. I don't see much real bullying in my day to day life, my workplace is generally pretty good in that respect (but I have heard second hand stories from friends ), in one case the individual concerned was head of the department and the bullying was to those in the level immediately below her.

When something has looked like a pattern at school for my son I've spoken to his teacher and asked that they watch out for the situation - that does seem to have helped.

The topic of on line bullying crops up on OLO often but I think getting into that would be a great distraction from what is being shared here.

R0bert

I stop if I can others bullying men.
My first day in school fearful Young baby, saw me walk into the girls toilet, by mistake, how could a 5 year old understand in his first seconds in school.
Two grade sixes lifted me of My feet each Had an arm.
Principal said let him down and dad had a Long conversation the next day.
Teachers? some claim it is character building, it NEVER IS.
in THE WORKPLACE every day SOME foolish brainless bloke bully's a weaker one.
I am spending 20% of my time, honestly, trying to sort out issue that came about by weak males getting pleasure out of bulling weaker ones.
RObert the subject needs airing, and should not be diverted we can get another thread up in a day.
Behind a bully in my view, is a man uncertain of his own manhood, who by his actions is no true man.
I am a battled scare well past it old battler but would take a flogging any day rather than say nothing.
I have lost face with some but tell every meeting truth has value lets say what we think not what you think I want to hear.

Interesting that the stereotype of the physically powerful (and probably stupid) male jock bully has dominated in this thread. Some think that "If one is an adult white male of reasonably athletic proportions, then surely there is no need for these men to bully. They already hold a greater status, which others have to earn." No, that is far from the truth.

From involvement in voluntary work with schools, sporting groups and other community voluntary organisations over the years I have come to realise that the boy (or girl) who causes the most concern for teacher, coach or colleague student throughout his school career is the son of the reasonably well-off professional couple who think that money and gifts can replace their care, discipline and attention.

Talk with teachers at Kindy, Preschool, Primary or Secondary schools, you can track the same spoiled brats all of the way through. These are the children who are particularly clever at manipulating others and have a cruel streak, honed by lack of demonstrated love and attention at home. They have everything but the time, attention and boundary-setting of their parents.

Their repertoire of trouble-making includes the game of "lets you and him fight". Sure they might occasionally push or shove another student but that would be a rare event, it is the psychological stuff that they focus on. It is just like the girls who are similarly clever at the game of bullying.

Time to move away from the stereotypical image of the male bully of rugby forward proportions and think of the more typical sly promoter, facilitator and perpetuator of people problems. Just where did anyone think that the bullies in the boardroom and in public life come from?

Hazing or bastardisation as it is known in Australia confuses the discussion and should be the subject of another thread.

1. Unless I have missed it, no-one here has described male bullies as "physically powerful (and probably stupid) male jock bully."

2. R0bert, despite his "physically powerful" stature, has discussed the issues of being bullied by short stature cowards.

3. I have asked, quite legitimately, why an adult male would feel the need to continue bullying if they already have high status in our society - yet they do.

4. Not all bullies come from privileged backgrounds, nor are they "spoiled brats" - however, some maybe and this ties in with my question of why people who already have status still continue to bully.

5. If "hazing" is not a form of bullying, please edify OLO readers and contributors with an definition of what hazing is.

Finally, Cornflower, as you appear to have missed the what the topic is about...

6. This topic is about bullying by males on males. If you wish to start a topic on female bullying by females I am more than happy to contribute as I believe it is as endemic as male-on-male bullying.

Severin this may be yet another topic but I think that the generalisation about white men already having a high status in society is not how it plays out for most.

At one level it is valid to point out that a white male will generally have a higher status than their peers who are not white males but most are still way down the pecking order compared to others (many of whom are not white males).

As a factor it's just one factor amongst many.

R0bert

WTF?

Male bullies all have one common personality trait. Their ladder of inference is very short. They form an opinion of a new male they meet very quickly.

If in this initial meeting the new male does not recognise and acknowledge in some way the beliefs that the bully (often mistakenly) holds about himself then the bully/victim roles are set.

I’ve seen a lot of blokes work the system and I’m not sure that it is always a conscious action.

New bloke joins workforce/class/cricket team/any social situation and he soon goes to work trying to figure out how people slot into the social order. If the bully and his toadies are identified and acknowledged there will be no or few problems.

It is very painful and almost impossible for a male bully to accept an error of judgement. What could be more painful then not receiving the acknowledgement of a new male in a work or social situation?

This is why teachers, coaches and supervisors have so much trouble with bullies – their core belief system has been challenged and they feel that they are right to defend themselves. The victim can usually be coerced to accept that they have “not tried hard enough to fit in” or some other such rubbish.

Apologies R0bert.

I thought this topic was about male on male bullying in Australia, I failed to comprehend that this means never mentioning white males, their status (or lack thereof), problems they encounter which may result in them bullying other men and questioning why people who have managed to attain high societal status themselves to continue bullying behaviour.

Clearly I am out of line. Won't bother you again.

Cheers.

Severin, you asked for this topic. You raised the point about male status and I've pointed out that gender and race are only part of the status tree. Cut the sarcastic comments if you want a serious discussion please.

If you think that male status is really a factor (as your comments suggest) then my comments are very relevant.

R0bert

Dear RObert, Severin, Cornflower, and others,

I hope that I've got this right - but
I saw a program advertised on TV a few days
ago that I think will be aired tonight -
at 6.30pm on Channel 7, "Sunday Night,"
current affairs program - hosted by Chris Bath
and Mike Munro dealing with "Bullying."

It actually deals with audience participation,
and experiences - looked good from the previews
and should make for interesting viewing (hopefully).

Just thought it worth a mention ...

Severin,

Maybe you often leap to confusion, too.

It is valid for me to contribute the experiences earned from what often feels to be a lifetime of volunteering and often being one of the people who give their time to support teachers, coaches and others involved with youth. I will always protect the confidences I have been given and it is possible to do that while reflecting of some of the lessons learned.

Whether you like it or not, the stereotype of the male bully ought be challenged because as I have detailed from what I have seen on school councils and the like, only some bullies are strong-arm toughs. For example, it is not uncommon at all for the ring leader bully to be the student who is favoured by the teacher for excelling in class.

It is not usual for the students who excel in sports to be the bullies and nor are the naturally physically capable or skilled self-defence practitioners (eg Tae Kwon Do or Karate) necessarily bullies. Rather bullying has to do with nurture, not 'masculinity' or some male 'hegemony' passed on by male teachers as you seem to imply.

It is not nature nor genetic inheritance, it is nurture and most of that comes from the home environment. Show me the bully who has not been modelled or rewarded for similar behaviours by his parent/s and does not have reasonable boundaries, set and discussed with him. Show me bully who has been loved and cared for at home and has been treated with respect by those adults who are important in his life.

My other observation is that anti-bullying codes implemented by education departments and other organisations are ineffective where the highest leaders (Minister, CEO and senior management group) are seen to promote or turn a blind eye to bullying behaviour through their own behaviour, specifically their management style. For example, if bullying is systemic in the education department it takes strong leadership at school level to counteract the influence of the overall environment.

Cornflower,

I assume the stereotypical strong-arm toughs you are referring to was in response to the two "toughs" I mentioned earlier.

I called them toughs (in inverted commas) because they weren't your garden-variety strong-arm toughs at all, but the opportunistic types that have their few years in an unassailable position at school. One of them was actually a toady of the other guy, who was the driver of the bullying. The latter was actually an incredibly intelligent and intellectual individual who had a real nasty streak when he got worked up. He was not a big guy at all, but when he got mad he would flail his arms around like windmills and pulverise people who he got into a fight with. His fury was genuinely scary. I think his behaviour underlied a major flaw in his character (His name was Michael and I have never met a Michael who didn't have a major character flaw.) My feeling was that there was a lack of warmth in his upbringing and in particular from his father who was a high up in the racing industry.

So, I agree with your comment that stereotypes can be misleading. And, yes, the worst ones are those with a sense of entitlement who have been brought up to think they are superior. As WTF? said, when they don't get satisfactory toadying from their peers, they attack the dissenters. Sad cases. I wonder how they're doing out in the real world?

Bullying can cross all the usual categorisations of class, gender and culture. A spoilt rich kid who is neglected and unloved probably has as much chance of becoming a bully as a kid from the working class suburbs who is neglected and unloved.

It would seem obvious to take Cornflower's opinion about the importance of love and respect within one's own family as influencing the probability of someone becoming a bully. Not all kids from these backgrounds become bullies, what makes some bullies and others not, this is the big question. Perhaps some are more genetically disposed.

Bullying from my own limited experience seems to stem from an inbuilt insecurity or reaction to certain pressures (I can only go from experience with workplace bullying which is across both genders).

Thankfully, I have been pretty lucky in life not to have been subjected to much in the way of bullying behaviours, the most notable two exceptions being within the within the government sector strangely where much is written about the subject but where there is little accountability.

As this topic is about males, I am guessing, that men sometimes still feel the need not to be seen as weak (usually only that individual's own fear or perception). Is it possible that for some men this translates to bullying behaviours? Weakness being defined both in intellectual ability, sporting prowress or physical appearance.

I don't pretend to understand what it means to be a man or masculine but you only have to look within a prison system to see that there is always a pecking order in place. For men it is about your standing with men rather than with women, for most women I think are a lot less demanding of what it means to be a man, but then I could be generalising.

Men are probably best fit to comment about each other in these cases, the rest of us are probably just guessing.

pelican,

>>Not all kids from these backgrounds become bullies, what makes some bullies and others not, this is the big question.<<

I think the main causes have been hit upon: males need to be higher up in the pecking order to get security and respect and some have been devoid of compassion in the early development which then feeds into their behaviour as adults. When you combine this with the threat of being left behind or the odium associated with not being a winner, some men take the easy and physical, yet normally short-term, path out of their predicament and become bullies, I suspect.

The novel "Lord of the Flies" pretty well sums up the quite unpleasant scenario where a dysfunctional mob of young males feeds on each other's bad behaviour.

The bullying you talk of cornflower exists.
But in no way is it even near most bullying.
Bully's come from all backgrounds and you can see the very reverse of your claim, a man of no wealth or status being in control at work.
Surely rather than class bullying is from within our mind and instincts?
I must not talk of active cases, but yes 20% of last week, 40% of a full book this coming week is bought about by bullying.
In the workplace too, men on men.
SOME not all, police are in fact bully's, actively looked for a job that would allow them to hit kick and verbally abuse others.
Our problem is not learned always at home, it is an out of control instinct we know as pecking order for those who feel the need to be top dog.
in my view a man should never retreat but then again should not needlessly charge, I am no collector of scalps.

Belly,

I was challenging the popular stereotype of the male bully, or bullying male in some circles.

Plainly, men are diverse in their education, background and experiences and they have different personalities, outlook and motivation. However, bullying isn't inherent to the make-up of a man or boy and most people could say that with confidence of the generous, loving and kind men and boys in their lives.

My main experience of males who bully has shown me that the few who are bullies do it either because they were raised to know no better and/or because they have found it to be an effective way to get what they want. Bullying is common in the corporate world as a source of informal power.

In recently history whole organisations were restructured with bullying as the main and preferred tool of choice to get the desired result - a result that was often not easily obtainable or far more expensive through the use of legitimate means. The public services would be good examples. For those who appreciate humour, the US comedy sitcom The Office, third series as I remember, gave some delightful examples of bullying to displace staff (techniques instantly recognisable by Australian public servants I would think) and also of union busting.

Some people seem to divide the world up into bullies and victims. Given that choice, most of us would rather be a bully. These people need help to see that, while everyone spends a little time in each role, particularly in their younger years, most of us aren't really victims without being bullies either.

It seems to me that our society has become very "victim-centric". I think that an essential aspect of bullying is the malicious intent of the "bully", as well as an on-going power imbalance betwen the two parties. It must oppress, it must be intended to oppress and it must suppress a meaningful response to that oppression by the victim.

A boss who gives a lazy employee a dressing down is not necessarily a bully, no matter how bad it makes the employeee feel to be so treated. A sense of intimidation in the face of authority does not necessarily imply bullying, it is a normal and important response of social animals such as dogs and is relied upon and reinforced by human authorities such as police and bureaucrats.

On the other hand, should a police officer misuse his mandated authority for a personal reason, whether it be to bolster his own ego or to scare a noisy neighbour, that is clearly bullying. The minor bureaucrat who nitpicks interminably or works unecessarily slowly may well be bullying, even if the "victim" isn't aware of any such assault. OTOH, mere slowness or thoroughness are not bullying, regardless of how victimised they may make one feel, if the "perpetrator" had no malicious intent.

In today's world, it is even possible to act as a bully by claiming to be a victim. There is a vast national investment in organisations that rely for their imprimatur on acting for victims against oppressors. "Malicious compliance" is the term for such bullying and it can be very pernicious indeed. The Union movement has been adept at this sort of bullying ("work to rule") and the Crimestoppers "no one need ever know your name" phone service for reporting alleged crimes is tailor-made for such abuse.

My sense is that most genuinely nasty bullying between males is confined to young men, often unsure of their own social ststus. It is mostly about establishing a hierarchy and asserting dominance and can escalate alarmingly. I have seen very little since I left school.

Anti
How does one define bullying? Obvious and overt bullying is probably easy to identify but if you read about bullying there are numerous definitions some are subtle and some not so.

True this ambiguity might make it easy for someone to complain about bullying as possible retaliation for their own incompetence, but these allegations would be easy to dismiss if the accusation was malicious. Usually bullies are well known throughout and other witnesses could easily add weight to the defence or arguments of either party.

It is the perpetrators of bullying that often get away with it and usually the subordinate that has to leave because people are too scared to speak up.

In the APS the standards are pretty vague and centre on respect and courtesy which can be highly individual. A dressing down by an army officer to a subordinate would not necessarily be seen as bullying but the same behaviour in a staid public service office may be viewed a such.

Even the part on workplace bullying in the link below is vague.

http://www.apsc.gov.au/values/conductguidelines11.htm

I am not sure if victim hood is on the rise or whether it is that people are now less likely to take shite from their bosses or peers.

There is an overall increase of cynicism towards our governments and politicians, maybe it is all part of an increasing trend - a bit like that movie (the name escapes me) where everyone is motivated to stick their heads out of the window and yell 'we aren't going to take anymore'.

Guidelines are useless where the correct tone is not set from the top and could even make things worse. Here is a current example from the papers:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/teachers-fear-bullying-if-they-tell-of-school-building-rorts-20100320-qn7h.html

Bullying has now become professional and institutionalised in last decade or so with leading one being Child Support Agency [and Family Law Industry in general].

Howard knew all he had to do was remove the gog given right to a bloke's day in court, so he did. Or at least he gave that impression by using Prof Parkinson as an expert consultant to "nobble" the legislation.

Now CSA does not even pretend that it acts legally, it simply says John Doe wants to "get" all those "deadbeats" and nobody says no. It's all very simple

Bullying should not be tolerated - wherever it occurs
or how subtle it may be. The fact remains it's wrong.
It has devastating effects. It makes people feel
lonely, unhappy, frightened. They become convinced that
there must be something wrong with them. They lose their
confidence, don't want to go to school, work, et cetera,
become ill, or at worse - commit suicide.

And all because some creep may think that this makes
them look tough and in charge or they may see this as
a way of being popular, or they're jealous of the person
they're bullying, or they don't understand how wrong
their behaviour is and how it makes the person being
bullied feel?

Bullies pick on people who're different in some way -
it can be the colour of their skin, they way they talk,
their size, their name, or they look like they won't
stand up for themselves. Whatever the reason - there's
no excuse for it. If it's in the workplace - and it's
happening - it needs to be reported - because whoever is
doing it - shouldn't be in that position. Incompetence
of an employee can be handled in a variety of ways -
but certainly bullying is not one of them.

We simply should not accept that sort of behaviour in our
society. It is damaging to us all.

DD, the CSA is a classic example of an organisation that is ripe for misuse through malicious compliance. It was started as art of a worthy desire to ensure that kids were properly looked after, but the Acts made it far too easy (and consequence-free) for a woman to create a great deal of trouble for her ex if so moved. I know you have a special interest in change of assessment determinations, which are a very blunt instrument indeed. It was the misuse of COAs that lead to my own disenchantment and decision not to cooperate with the CSA. My ex-wife has finally learnt that the only way to get money out of me is to leave the CSA out of it.

Pelican:"It is the perpetrators of bullying that often get away with it and usually the subordinate that has to leave"

Which is precisely the situation that confronts young male social mammals of all kinds, although sometimes abject submission will mean they can within the pack. Dogs are an obvious example. To the winner go the spoils, as someone has already pointed out.

I know it isn't as simple as I'm portraying, but I do believe it has a great deal to do with it. As women have moved into social niches previously occupied entirely by males, they are being exposed to situations that they were once largely sheltered from, including aggressive dominance-seeking. I suspect that this is behind a lot of the change in the perception of bullying, since women tend to feel threatened by such behaviour, even if they are not the target.

Male bullying is pretty straight-forward, usually, except for the rare sociopath. Trying to deal with it subtly is largely a waste of time. It is atavistic at its core and will probably always exist until we evolve into something not human.

'Some people seem to divide the world up into bullies and victims. Given that choice, most of us would rather be a bully. These people need help to see that, while everyone spends a little time in each role, particularly in their younger years, most of us aren't really victims without being bullies either.'

Good post benk. You've made the rest of the posters look pretty dim

It's easy to say bullying is wrong, but it can be a jungle out there.

I went to a few different schools. My experience at one of them, was that being a thin and fairly short guy, I was a perceived as an easy target.

However, I knew damn well that there are two kinds of bullying psychological/verbal and physical. When threatened with the latter, I'm not ashamed to admit that I responded with the former. When pushed around or insulted, I would go for the jugular with whatever smartass comment came to mind. If the bully threatening me was big and dumb, I'd call them stupid, retarded even, and make sure plenty of people heard. In other situations, I'd resort to pointing out that they were trying to pick on one of the smallest kids in the playground.

I suppose that was my way of biting back. I got beaten up a little, but fortunately I had friends who were bigger than I was who would help me if things got ugly. So yes, I guess I acted in a way bullies do as well. I would go on the offensive and I would aggressively insult others, even trying to capitalise on their insecurities.

Some might have viewed this as one of those smaller types bullying others. I'd respond that it wasn't mere insecurity provoking such outbursts, the verbal and physical threats I'd received were very real.

The result was that despite being small and far from athletic, I wasn't relentlessly bullied like some of those with poor social skills.

I make the point however, that later when I changed schools and there was a different atmosphere, I didn't behave like this at all.
I didn't need to.

My point is, that bullying can be a defensive measure employed against other bullies. It's not always as black and white as victim and bully.

>>Good post benk. You've made the rest of the posters look pretty dim.<<

We aren't all as smart and self-serving as you, H...q. Hey, what about being a bully from day one and tear off like the roadrunner so that I can get to them but no one can get to me. Then I always win and they always lose. That is an attitude I can't stomach, personally.

The fact that it slips off the tongue so easily with you says a fair bit about you.

Owww. Rob. So sad? What's up?

I liked the road runner. Still here though. Waiting.

As I've said many times, my personal enjoyment on OLO is my sole consideration when posting, and you have made it worth my while. I thank you.

BTW: What does it say about me? I'm just words on a page man. And if anything, you're the one saying stuff about me (you big bully), it's just that you're not courageous enough to actually say it overtly, even though you'll never meet me.

Things just are. Everything has it's place. We're all bullys and victims, it's just some would prefer to identify with the victim as it has more currency. Well, I like the coldness, the honesty of the bully rather than the measly justifications and sophistry of the self-styled victims.

And I AM winning, as I'm grinning. That's what it's all about.

But you Rob, Oh, so sad.

A smile and a joke is all I've ever needed to avoid the 'bully's' of the world, like yourself.

The offspring said it best. 'The more you suffer, the more it shows you really care!'

>>it's just that you're not courageous enough to actually say it overtly, even though you'll never meet me.<<

You just prove what a prize toff you are. OK, I will say it. I hope someone who does know you gives you the mother of all king hits (not necessarily physical) that knocks that supercilious grin off your face. (Not because I'm against grinning, just that you have a chronic tendency to be a smart-arse, which IS just psychological bullying.)

Then maybe you'll understand a few more things about life and round yours off a bit. Not every victim has got measly excuses at all as you must know by now. Every site has its resident smartarse/toff and currently you're it. Hope you go the way of the Dodo/Col.

And yeah, you're right I shouldn't feed the troll.

Wow what a lot of posts !

I had an interesting education. First at a quaker boarding school and then at a high church boarding school, both in England.

There was little bullying as such in either school because of the free and easy atmosphere in the former and the absolute discipline in the latter, unless you allow punishment meted out under sanction by both the housemaster and the head boy of the house for the slightest of infraction. I guess there wasn't much time for peer to peer bullying as the school was developed on the old system of "fagging" so well described in Tom Brown's Schooldays"

Punishment was by the cane and usually undertaken in a dormitory where there was a "run-up" in order to inflict the greatest damage and pain often drawing blood. There was also punishment by senior boys on first year boys for the the silliest of things like not being quick enough to open a door for them and this punishment was in the form of continuous physical exercise, press ups and holding a certain position for periods of time. I say that all this was sanctioned because it all had to be written down in a punishment book and signed by the housemaster to create a "legal" and precise account.

I have to say that when I got to a position of authority I never used that position to punish anyone, The mere threat of it being there was enough to maintain the discipline and I never wanted to anyway. I don't feel it did me any harm although it might have left psychological on some, but I doubt it

Continued....

This form of education is not practiced in schools in England now of course, and much could be argued against it, but it did engender a degree of right and wrong, self discipline, camaraderie, toughness, self dependence, honesty, truthfulness, leadership etc that I see missing in so much education these days. Was it bullying ? I don't know, as once undertaken it was forgotten by both parties and a new page was turned.

I have mentioned here before this school developed (for want of a better word) character that manifested itself in considerable distinction in two world wars recognised later by the British government in a stained glass window installed in the chapel.

Bullying for the sake of ego and peer group encouragement is obviously bad and should be condemned. It all starts with education and discipline in the home

I miss Col. Now HE was entertaining. If there were more like Col around I wouldn't have to make my own fun out of you lot.

Good to see you're getting into the spirit of things. I bet you feel much better now that's off your chest. There will be no charge this time.

as for old english school bullying there is a bittersweet book called "Us" by Richard Mason about that subject and how it affected the lives of the group after

Good reading.

>>There will be no charge this time.<<

Hang on, shouldn't I be charging you?

The following website might help:

http://www.jcu.edu.au/eo/bullying/JCUDEV_010054.html

Thanks for that Foxy. You and Fractelle are wonderful how you google for studies. I don't know what we'd do without your help in defining what a bully is.

I'm sure all you nice people have lots of wonderful stories of how you were bullied. But if any of you had any guts, you'd relate stories of when you were the bully. Or when you supported a bully and found it enjoyable and amusing.

Oh, that's right, you're all pure as driven snow. Bullys are 'those people'. You're the righteous ones.

Foxy thanks. When I read one of the causes I kept thinking of a certain poster, I doubt that anyone could guess who it would be

"Bullies, however, have a distorted sense of how to increase their self-concept, and so engage in anti-social activities. Bullying makes them feel good about themselves and, mistakenly, they believe that engaging in it will make other people see them as powerful."

R0bert

Dear RObert,

I thought you'd get it...

It's all about egotism - usually just a
case of mistaken nonentity!

(If one can't command attention by one's
admirable qualities at least one can be
a nuisance).

R0bert, that's interesting. Reading down I was going to say that my memories of school was that bullying for the boys was really much the same as bullying for the girls, just tending to be more overtly physical. Being a larger school, there were always 4 "classes" within a year group. The shining stars - those that were genuinely talented, usually through sport or social skills, and who everyone else aspired to be liked by. They were never bullied. Then there were the middle class - nice people, did their thing, generally got along with all and sundry, sometimes ended up on the receiving end of bullying, but usually had decent support from their peers. Then there was the "lower class" who tended to be the victims. Often from poor families, with poor social skills, others were "nerds" etc, and had little in the way of social support at school - few friends. The bullies, tended to come from a group of people between the stars and the middle class - they saw themselves as superior, but 1 step away from the top, and would use whatever power they could get to show off that they were better than anyone else.

That sits pretty true with what other posters have said, and they may very well have been poorly treated at home - certainly an inherent nastiness would seem to creep through. As I said though, similar for boys and girls.

This has been an interesting post to say the least!
The most interesting have been the Divorce Doctor and Antiseptic bringing the Family Court into the argument.

I am amazed that they think these courts 'bully' the men before them.
Have they seen the definitions of bullying posted by Foxy?

By bullying, I assume they think the women get the best deal in these courts.
But are all the judges male? If not, then it doesn't fit into this thread's subject of male on male bullying.

Houellebecq, I would hazard a guess that how you interact with RobP is a form of bullying, but you are certainly a master at the lowest form of wit- sarcasm.

Hi All,

Yes bullying is alive and well.
It happens in industry but it is not exclusive to it as one of the worst offenders is the Public Service, including those people who do not believe they are public servants; politicians.
Working in the Public service as an administrator of the apprenticeship system and adult training, required me frequently to attend the workplace to investigate complaints of bullying.
Usually tradesperson or labourers. Some apprentices were subject to horrific and sometimes potentially dangerous pranks. Employers chose to ignore it as "boys will be boys".
Employers were advised they were accountable and could be held equally to blame if they did not take appropriate action to stop it. I would advise I would be calling to monitor the situation and to ensure the apprentice was not victimised or threatened with the sack for complaining.
However, for every one complaint I attended, there were many others too afraid to complain of their treatment for fear of the “sack” or increased the bullying. One problem faced by officers was that they could not investigate a complaint unless an apprentice or trainee, parents or guardians laid the complaint.
The reason was if an apprentice or trainee was sacked due to an intervention by an officer, the department feared it would be held responsible.
Public service bullying was strange. Often it occurred when the incompetent seniors felt threatened and felt the person posing the threat had to be put in their place. Alternatively it might be threats from minority groups within that particular department or division.
Pettiness that should not happen within such an organization. I once acted as an advocate for an officer bullied to the extent that he had several strokes/heart attacks and was off on stress leave. Once he was better, he wanted to return to work but feared this particular manager would cause him to have more heart attacks, so he asked me to speak for him.
I did and successfully negotiated his work conditions, but also in the longer term was able to use my network to have the manager removed.

I remember ol' dear departed Col when he boasted that he didn't have any weaknesses. Later, I thought if he doesn't have any weaknesses, he doesn't have any strengths either. Boom boom. Empty barrel rolling down a flight of stairs from our resident Thatcherite. Ring any bells, Hq? After all, you and he did hang upside down nibbling fruit from the same tree.

>>But if any of you had any guts, you'd relate stories of when you were the bully.<<

Good try, Hq. Why exactly would anyone give you a get-out-of-jail card? Anyone can see you are the biggest bully going around that wants to now wriggle off the hook, by pretending he never did nuthin' and wanting someone else to give you your alibi to boot.

But you're right. Most people are the "bully" in the relationship at some stage. The yin-yang principle is all-pervasive and it takes a very strong and wise person to always stay on the right side of it. Basically, to do so you have to have hit the ground running from year dot and never make a mistake - in either your micro or macro existence - from that time on. I have done some bullying mainly out of frustration, but have generally felt bad/wrong about it the few times I knowingly did it. (The times it played on my mind, I made a wish that the person on the receiving end would be strengthened by my action.) I've also been on the receiving end a few times, so maybe that was karma for something I unknowingly or indirectly did to someone else. I accept the full reciprocity and that it's good for my personal development and that it is all part of the requisite atonement.

And these are the reasons I'd like to see an end to the practice in all its forms.

<"I remember ol' dear departed Col when ... ">

Where is Col?

I've been wondering what happened to him.

I don't believe that there is any similarity with yin and yang, or that people are forever doomed to cycle between being a persecutor or a victim.

In fact few people are bullies or victims and for most people their encounters with bullies, more specifically where they are personally affected/targeted by a bully, are mercifully brief and unusual enough to be remembered as singularly unpleasant experiences.

Usually we can give bullies a swerve, even if that means temporary forgoing something we might want. Although some are so clever at their game and in getting what they want that we have to dust ourselves off afterwards and probably not fully understanding all that went down.

Foxy's bullying description from the EEO policy, James Cook University, is rooted in the traditional 'bully-boy' stereotype of bullying and is far too limited as a result, missing the very clever, manipulative bullies who are very effective at communication and whose knowledge of the black arts, especially from psychology and rhetoric render most other people as putty in their hands. As I noted earlier, organisational restructuring provided jobs for skilled bullies, as managers or consultants who could 'unfreeze' (read as disrupt) work groups and working relationships and 'encourage' 'mobility' (force people to fall on their swords).

That is not to say that all 'change agents' were bullies but CEOs were smart enough to recognise the usefulness of the considerable informal power of bullying to quickly and economically achieve the results they wanted. It helped that some CEOs were not short on skills in the black arts themselves.

contd..

Bullying, as opposed to the ethical use of legitimate power and persuasion, is common in management and public life because it is cheap and effective and because those who prefer it as a negotiation strategy are highly skilled at it, have long experience in applying their 'skill set' and have consistently 'won' from applying their skills. It is also a shield to deter and deflect inconvenient questions and review. (I have used inverted commas not because these are not identifiable knowledge and skills, but because I regard them as unprincipled and inappropriate.)

Just think, bullying skills could help make your partner your bitch for as long as s/he is prepared to put up with it, or it could give you that leg up above the opposition to become the leader of a political party or even Governor-General. It just depends on your intellect, contacts and ambition.

True, some bullies are as envisioned by the J C Uni's EEO policy - weak individuals with poor communication to be pitied - however where bullying is concerned they are the exception, not the rule.

Maybe it is more fruitful to concentrate on ethics not bullying, the latter being only one element of moral decision making.

Hi Cornflower,
Bullies can be useful tools for executive management. Instead of direct confrontation with those who may disagree they use those weak bootlicking intelligent challenged but ambitious people to bully and hopefully frighten the opposition away, especially where management does not want any questions asked of a particular policy line. Watch parliament for example. Intelligent debate is becoming less and less. It is now a situation where personal attack is the name of the game with little enough to do with running a government

The rude colloquial saying is that sh*te rolls down from the top.

An unpleasant image but it blows the gaffe on executive management who pretend to be unaware of their own deliberate strategies.

What shouldn't be forgotten is that such unethical behaviour is a red flag for more generalised corruption, which is not surprising really.

'Ring any bells, Hq?'

Oh Rob, he obviously made a lasting impression on you. I'm doubtful the reverse is true. It's a measure of the man.

As for me being a bully? I don't even remember conversing with you much on OLO. As I've said before, people who normally converse with me have done so for a year. Now on a forum where I can simply be ignored, obviously they get some great entertainment by continuing to converse with me. That doesn't sound like a bully-victim relationship.

You've no need to spend so much time excusing and justifying your own bullying to me. I was just after some honesty from the victim brigade. Besides, the high and mighty court of the established users is where you will need to beg for redemption.

Which brings me to Foxy,

Oh Foxy, I have explained many times that I have a different motivation for posting on OLO. Now you might decide 'admirable qualities' are something to 'command attention' with, but that's just showing your inherent need for attention and affirmation (like r0bert). It would be hard for you to understand someone who doesn't need this affirmation, and I understand why you would have so much trouble understanding someone who has no need to be seen as intelligent or having 'admirable' qualities.

If I so wished, I could give you what you want and engage with the discussion in a way that you desire. But I don't think many of these discussions or posters are worthy of my serious input. Besides, why would I let myself be bullied into communicating on your terms. I'm here to take entertainment without any desire of giving anything in return. That I happen to keep your attention says more about your love for me than my supposed need for attention.

r0bert,

'powerful'? On a discussion forum? Maybe if you stopped searching for affirmation you'd understand I am not nor do I need to be seen as powerful here. Neither do you, so don't waste you time with envy.

Becky why would you think it was you? ;)

As Foxy pointed out elsewhere your joke is getting rather old, it's starting to sound like jokes about dogs. Perhaps it's you who has no understanding of people who enjoy this site when discussions can be had with a degree of politeness.

R0bert

I can understand people who would prefer to watch The Waltons or A Country Practice r0bert. It's just I'd rather watch something with a bit more spice.

I can understand you all get a hard-on over saving the world and creating your theoretical utopia's, but I'm here for entertainment.

Still waiting for the victim brigade to relate their stories of when they were the bully...

BTW: I don't think it's 'polite' to cast cowardly aspersions as you and Foxy have. Even if it wasn't about me, it still wouldn't be polite. Like whispering derogatory remarks about someone at the dinner table. The hypocrisy drips from you two from every pore.

The problem with sweeping assumptions is that one size tends to fit no one. Psychological generalization are at their least helpful when attempting to describe specific personalities.

It is one thing to say that there is a tendency in society but it is another thing to project that onto an individual. Making the determination is the reason we have professionals.

I spent much of my life subject to bullies of one kind or another who's motives were wide and varied. However there were some observation that could be made . Specifically the "problem" usually emanated from the bully (inability to understand, weakness, fear) rather than the person being bullied.

The most common reason was that the bullied person had something that made them stand out from the rest of the crowd. Bullies tend to view difference(s) as some sort of threat to their own view of the way the world should be.

Likewise it is exceedingly superficial to suggest that politeness or an instance for that is because that person need approval etc.

Context and complete assessment and testing is the only way to make those judgments. Personally I tend to try and avoid such judgments especially when those who stand out often have a very different perspective. Therefore the social norm assumptions are unlikely to apply.

>>Oh Rob, he obviously made a lasting impression on you. I'm doubtful the reverse is true. It's a measure of the man.<<

Man? Hardly. Col was a smart-arse, as are you. As you previously said you are just words on a page. That's exactly right. And you could add to that that in a trench with the bullets flying, you'd be as useless as a turd in a swimming pool. Your "mates" would throw the likes of you and Col out. You come across as the type who has used his cleverness to get the top without having done an ounce of work in his life. A toff just like Col IOW.

>>That doesn't sound like a bully-victim relationship.<<

I was going on Graham's assessment of you as a bully some time ago. I think I'd take his word for it before yours.

>>You've no need to spend so much time excusing and justifying your own bullying to me.<<

I wasn't. I was using the opportunity you provided to do something I didn't have the chance to before. And for that, I thank you. See, you are useful for something. Just.

>>Besides, the high and mighty court of the established users is where you will need to beg for redemption.<<

I don't feel the need to prove anything or beg for anything from anyone. I'm simply putting my view. The fact that you can't accept mine says plenty about you and your stock-in-trade disparagment of others. I can hold firm to my own view against you or any of the other Jedis here, no probs. The only question of importance to me is whether or not it's worthwhile. Slowly but surely, I'd have to say the lights are dimming in that respect. You are playing a major part in that, so you can go and stand in front of the mirror now and take a bow.

pontificator,

'Making the determination is the reason we have professionals.'
Oh I was so wishing you'd lead into talking about your candlelight suppers.

'The most common reason was that the bullied person had something that made them stand out from the rest of the crowd.'

Yep, my lack of care-factor of whether I'm seen to be intelligent or 'contributing' to OLO, and my different way of conversing.

'Bullies tend to view difference(s) as some sort of threat to their own view of the way the world should be.'

Yep, the established users of OLO threatened by my difference, and attempting to force conformance to their accepted way off communicating and their purpose of saving the world.

'Likewise it is exceedingly superficial to suggest that politeness or an instance for that is because that person need approval etc.'

R0bert's manners isn't to do with the approval seeking. I identified more his desire to separate himself from antiseptic in gender discussions. He'd like to more overtly agree with a lot of antiseptics points, but he is afraid of how that affects how he is seen by the female posters. He is constantly torn, and some female posters play on this. Or maybe they just genuinely see all the male posters as one. Actually they encourage him away from antiseptic by claiming that if he doesn't he's just being bullied into some macho male solidarity if he agrees with anti.

It's fun to watch anyway.

r0bert: I agree with anti, not all men are bastards
femme: Oh r0bert, I thought you were one of the few nice men!
r0bert: Oh sorry, that anti really is a brute, but if you could just give him a chance and read this bit...
femme: He's abusive, and if you agree you're abusive too! You're being bullied into this menz business!
r0bert:Oh, I'm sorry I didn't mean to upset you, I just think ... oh please don't say I'm like HIM. Please.
femme: I disagree with many men like r0bert who can be civil and nice, not like you anti, you're a bully
r0bert;: phew!

Houlley the armchair psychologist. Would you like a latte or chardonnay with that?

I'd like a Boddington's.

Or maybe even a few shots of Gletscher Eis thanks pelican.

PS: 'armchair psychologist'. Like there's any other type.

Houellebecq, do you really think that it's about affirmation or is it general preference to see others fighting unnecessarily? It looks more like the latter to me.

A lot of your posts seemed to be geared to play people off against each other, to provoke conflict where it might not otherwise be.

A continual push to try and get me to be rude to Severin when I don't need to be, trying to get Antiseptic more annoyed with me than he might otherwise need to be, other digs often done at a tangent which if not watched for could leave the targets annoyed at each other without real reason.

R0bert

Canny observation, R0bert.

Well, I guess some gegeneration was to be expected. I'm surprised CJ hasn't jumped in with a "me too" to Severin's post, but otherwise, it's followed a predictable course.

Personally, I think far too much thinking is being done on this topic, which is a very simple one at root.

Among schoolboys, it is almost always about establishing hierarchies and protecting them. Throughout history, an essential aspect of a secure hierarchy is the creation of an "other", who can be blamed for failings of the leadership, or simply vilified in order to distract from them.

For young boys that "enemy" is often girls: "Eeew, she touched you, you've got girls' germs", while for older boys it is usually a boy who can be easily portrayed as different. R0bert touched on that when he mentioned the small boy who hit him for the approbation of his mates, while TRTL showed a similar dynamic in his own example. The less stable a group, the more the bullying is likely to occur, as different boys within the gtoup may initiate bullying to improve the security of their own position. That was the dynamic at Churchie, which I have mentioned previously.

As boys grow to men, the nature of the bullying changes, but the reason doesn't. Severin asks: "why an adult male would feel the need to continue bullying if they already have high status in our society", which misses the point. Bullying between males is not usually about wider status, but about establishing relative status between the two.

It seems that some thought I was having a go at CJ with my previous remark about dogs, but I was serious. If a new dog is introduced to a pack, the alpha is not compalcent, but immediately goes out of his way to establish dominance. The only way the newcomer can avoid a fight is to submit to some lesser bullying, such as denial of access to the food or the bitches.

Males of any social species are pretty simple in their motivations.

Overthinking this subject won't illuminate it.

R0bert, I think you misinterpret Houellebecq's intent. His jibes are always based on what he percieves as the hypocrisies of posters.

Thus he says "R0bert really agrees with Anti, but can't acknowledge that because he also wants acceptance by some others", which is a common social problem, I'm sure you'll agree. I can recall biting my tongue in lots of meetings when the boss made it clear that he didn't approve of something said by someone with whom I agreed. According to some of the links put up, that is submitting to bullying, but I prefer to think of it as choosing one's battles.

Further, this site, like any other discussion, needs provocateurs who offer views that challenge received wisdom. I couldn't think of anything worse than a forum in which everyone was in violent agreement, or spoke entirely at cross-purposes to each other in an effort to avoid offence.

I make an effort to make my posts thoughtful and entertaining. I try not to post views I'm not prepared to defend. Whether I hold any of those views as deep personal truths is a moot point. I reckon Houellebecq does the same, despite his protestations. Long may he continue to do so.

Allow me CJ,

As an anthropologist you make a great garbologist anti-woman.

'Males of any social species are pretty simple in their motivations. '
No doubt that is an apposite analysis of yourself, but real men with a functioning brain are much more complex.

'Overthinking this subject won't illuminate it.'
I don't think anyone is ever very concerned about antiseptic 'overthinking' anything.

anti,

'Bullying between males is not usually about wider status, but about establishing relative status between the two.'
As in the Mark Latham handshake?

R0bert

I don't hold grudges - at least not for long. One of 2 points I was trying to make about bullying is:

1. Fear of losing power; this is what I was leading to with my comments about why someone who has attained status, power, money, whatever, would continue to behave with contempt towards his fellow beings.

People who have a tenuous grip on their self-worth often remain bullies into adult-hood - despite education or intelligence.

This leads me to considering people like Rupert Murdoch - is there ever enough power? Is not amassing more wealth than can be spent in a lifetime, while others live in poverty from which they have no hope of extricating themselves, not a form of abuse?

Severin I bet when you play monopoly you don't charge rent and give rent subsidies to other players when they have to pay rent.

I think looking at your living standards, you are abusing every poor kid in Africa, and exploiting all the poor workers in China.