Dear Individual,

No one is trying to be contentious
here.

The reason for this debate that CJ has raised
(and Ray Martin has talked about) is because -
we are celebrating Australia Day - and it is
an appropriate time to discuss the issue of
this country's values and aspirations of the 21st
century. People felt that this is an appropriate
time to reflect on Australia's status - as
a nation. Raise the issues - and let the people
decide. The old adage of - "If it ain't broke -
don't fix it," is simply an excuse for laziness
and inaction - as I've stated previously.

I still feel somewhat unclear though, when you refer
to "real" Australians - what do you mean by that?

To me Australia has always represented a
gathering of many cultures, and this is one of the
most unique and rewarding aspects of living in this
country. The nature of being Australian is to be part
of this diversity. The wide and varied gathering of
"identities" is in keeping with the sense of potential
and openess so many people enjoyed on coming here.

Anyway, enjoy your day, as I will - and see you on
another thread.

Foxy et al

You raise an interesting point about 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.
Clearly it is broke or at least an enormous exaggeration as it doesn't represent more than 40% of the public. Those that are either part or non Alglo Saxon,Or those who can't trace direct AS lineage back to.... what?... pre 1840ish.

Clearly a nonsense. The flag should represent all of us and so long as there is the union jack, then we're giving preeminence 'a' racial group not necessarily *the* people responsible for who we are i.e. the indigenous, the afghan camel drivers, Chinese traders, the Chaffey Bros, Cobb brothers(US), Peter Lalor, St Ned, Sthn Victoria was mostly Irish(Irish), most of the Eureka stockade elite weren't British, Ludwig Leichardt, Adelaide Hills, Outer Brisbane German, Nth Qld outer Melbourne, central NSW Italian, Let's not forget the Aussie born either. I could go on. In truth beyond gold being discovered the English actually opening up of Australia wasn't as influential as often believed.

Realistically from 1788-1820 is subject to lessor foreign influence but definitely after 1840 foreigner input was far more noticeable.
Under English influence/rule definitely but....without the other influences AUSTRALIA as we know it wouldn't exist.

The nation was formed 1901 and that should be our *national* day and the flag should be something we can *all* identify with. Hanging on to 'invasion day' and what followed as some aspirational mythology offends my sense of logic and identity.

Foxy, "Australia Day - and it is an appropriate time to discuss the issue of this country's values and aspirations of the 21st century. People felt that this is an appropriate time to reflect on Australia's status - as a nation."

Along with a very large percentage of the population I disagree with that assessment. Critics have all year to discuss their grievances and ideas, yet they choose to do it on or immediately prior to Australia Day. They seek to sensationalise and embarrass for effect. The same critics probably see Xmas as a time to vilify Christians and rant about religion.

Australia Day was never conceived as a time when Australia and its traditions should be criticised and I would hazard a guess that no other country would want its national day similarly disgraced. Unity is expressed by allowing one day at least to be the day when all cares can be set aside and people can concentrate on what the precious things they share and hold in common. The first as far as Australia is concerned is freedom and a great many people came here seeking it.

As per usual the Greens are always desperate for a headline and publicity so Brown leapt at the first chance that came along which happened to be an ex- TV journo's opinion of the flag (Ray Martin is not so capable of deep thought either). This was always a cheap shot by the Greens, who if they really wanted to contribute to future of Australia would be putting forward some practical ideas for sustainability and criticising Rudd's 'populate or bust' (populate until we bust?). Come to think about it, Brown studiously avoided the golden opportunity of Dick Smith's comment on immigration to say anything about sustainability.

Thanks to all for the interesting responses.

A couple stand out:

individual: << I am a newcomer to this country & I see absolutely no point in changing the flag, especially to merely satisfy the ungrateful & unappreciative hangers on. >>

Having said you're a new chum, on what basis do you assert that opinion and how do you assess the "real Australians" you refer to later? Are you suggesting that those Australians who have long been working towards Australian inedependence are "ungrateful and unappreciative hangers on", and/or are not "real Australians"?

Cornflower: << It is very sly to link the flag with racism but it fools no-one, everyone is a wake up to the usual suspects and given time it will rebound on them. >>

Tell that to the bogans at Cronulla and Manly. The fact that the old flag has become a central symbol for the contemporary expression of Aussie racism is a bloody good reason to get rid of it. That there are persuasive reasons concerning shared national identity anyway just adds to the weight of the argument to replace the current flag.

<< Freedom of speech is something we cherish and will be celebrating on Australia Day. >>

So why whinge about those of us who use the symbolic value of Australia Day to do just that, i.e. speak freely about Australia? For what it's worth, I doubt that we'll see either a real Australian flag or a truly sovereign Australian nation in the foreseeable future - but it will happen one day, partly because Australians of diverse political persuasions will persist in raising the issue.

It's not a matter of if, but when - even if 'when' doesn't look like anytime soon :)

I'm with CJ on this one. There is no doubt in my mind that one day we will become a republic and that then we will need a new Australian flag to represent cutting ties with England.

Personally, I would like to see a flag with all the current colours and stars, but without the union jack, and to add some sort of reference to the first Australians.

I am quite happy to continue with 26th January for Australia day, because that was the beginning of the shape that a new Australia would become. The occupation by Europeans and others have made this country the multicultural country it is today. It is one that is envied by others.

Like many other countries in the world that have gone through invasions and occupations in their history, all people of this country just have to get on with living with each other peacefully, or face losing the wonderful life we have here in Australia.

People at Cronulla should have voiced their concern better but the truth is they should never have been put in a position to have to protest at all. Denial of 10 years of race hate from mindless gangs culiminated in this riot. Falure of police, media and government. Same as with Indian students. Of course most offenders are not white anglo-saxon so it must be kept quiet. Harris Park riot was the same reaction to the same thugs. So for me, and having been there and been a victim, I see the failure at government level and I feel those who display ugly, hideous bigotry by calling them bogans far worse. At least they did something to stop mindless intimidation especially toward women. What did you do C J Morgan, just say well women getting raped and hosed down in between sessions is ok because she is probably bogan white trash? Honestly you disgust me.

I am white but not anglo-saxon, not a drop. I would like to write on grandparent thread except I never had any, killed by hate and illness along with half their children.

We do not all have to carry your insane guilt trips as many of us were victims of hate as well. Hate, slavery does not discriminate along race lines. About time self centred, guilt tripping anglo-saxons stopped making it all about them and grow the hell up.

Everyone else is over it.