A couple of news items caught my eye this morning. In the first, former journalist and TV personality Ray Martin has called for Australia to adopt a new national flag, without a Union Jack in the corner.

http://tiny.cc/xms4n

In the second, journalist Marieke Hardy published an opinion piece at the ABC 'The Drum' website, in which she draws attention to the ways in which Australia Day and the current Australian flag have recently been increasingly appropriated as symbols of Australian racism.

http://tiny.cc/8YncX

I agree with them both. The current Australian flag has passed its 'use-by' date and is a colonial anachronism that has been taken up as an icon by the ugly Aussie racist minority that give the rest of us a bad name. It's time we had our own flag, around which all Australians can rally, regardless of ancestry, religion or politics.

And while we're at it, we can take advantage of the momentum and finally become and independent Australian republic.

While I abhor racism, I find it difficult to believe it is the design of the flag that the racists are using, rather the symbolism of us against them. Changing it to a yellow background with a spotted lizard (for example) would not change things. Nut jobs are not really bright enough to notice the subtleties.

Similarly, an Australian republic with a different flag is an expensive exercise about which too few people care.

Oh the offended are out in force on the drum lol.

Racist Lebanese gangs attacking multiple races including recent attacks of Indian students and the infamous rapes and racist torment on women have given Australia far worse reputation. Should we demand Lebanon change their flag? The recent Tennis idiot behaviour and Croatia? The slavery and continued racism in the USA, should they change their flag? the REAL invaders of this land, England - change their flag?

Yet a few t-shirts and tattoos calls for a change in our flag?

Insecurity perhaps? Lack of maturity, too sensitive to what will others think of us, YES. We are becoming so very awfully contrived enough to make me ill.

I wish I was French.

Glad, proud in fact to support both the greens and C J Morgan yes a new flag.
Canada got one, it in no way upset the stuff shirts in England.
Love shadow ministers pain, the idea that such as this must have little support amuses me.
Tomorrow I celebrate my country and just how far we have come from that big prison England used us for.
Along side the current flag in my home, flys the southern cross far more Representative in my mind to the spirit of Australia.
Sad however we lost the ashes but then again we will win them back over here.

While I support a Republic I don't necessarily support a new Australian Flag unless the majority want it. The Flag itself is not a symbol of racism. It would be draped around the shoulders regardless of design.

Personally I think the Flag we have has historical significance and is indicative of our past, which while we may seek to change our connection with Britain, it is very much part of Australia's history. This does not diminish the multicultural nature of our way of life in any way.

However if the majority of Australians wanted a change I would not lose sleep over a new Flag. This is the sort of question that is ideal for a referendum. Let the people decide.

Dear CJ,

What I feel needs to happen first is that
Australia needs to reflect on its current status.

In other words does it want to be a
fully independent country
or remain a British colony?

A Referendum needs to be put to the people
regarding this matter.

Only after that can a new flag be considered.

If the vote is for Australia becoming a fully
independent country, respectful of its British
history, then of course the country will need a
new flag to reflect an authentic and modern
Australian identity.

The current flag through
its design and history reflects the long past
society that was Australia when it was an
integral part of the former British Empire.

I say put Ray Martin on a basic wage & see how much priority he'll give to a new flag. You can put an idiot into an Armani suit & Gucci shoes but does it make him smarter ?
Could the pro change-the-flag mob explain how another piece of cloth will lower unemployment, make teachers smarter, provide better health services etc. etc.
I am a newcomer to this country & I see absolutely no point in changing the flag, especially to merely satisfy the ungrateful & unappreciative hangers on.

Dear Individual,

Just by way of clarification:

Ray Martin came from an inpoverished background
who pulled himself up by his own bootstraps.
What he has today - he worked for and
earned every cent. And judging by his talent and
success - he doesn't qualify for the derogatory
title you assigned to him. I agree with you - that
clothes don't necessarily make the man - but they
certainly help in the impression that's created when
applying for a job.

This debate is not about being anti - something.
It is simply - pro - Australian.

In Australia, publicity seekers and the odd try-hard know they can get away with dumping on the national flag and boy, do some of them abuse that privilege to let all of their hatreds hang out! It is very sly to link the flag with racism but it fools no-one, everyone is a wake up to the usual suspects and given time it will rebound on them.

Freedom of speech is something we cherish and will be celebrating on Australia Day.

Looking forward:
The variety on the groaning tables on Australia Day grows every year - a gastronomic tour of the world starting with Sydney Rock Oysters, Oh joy! Australian wines for me though.

I think a new flag is the least of our concerns at the moment. The reality is that, even if we ditch the poms, they will always remain a part of our history. Until that part of our history is something to be truly ashamed of - and yes, there is a lot to be ashamed of in our history, but I don't think our nation's underlying pomminess is a great concern - we might as well acknowledge it.

Just as Canada ditched the Union Jack, Hawaii kept it. That doesn't make Hawaii a British dominion - it simply reflects the history of the island state. South Africa - in a bid to move away from its past - ditched the old Dutch flag with its Union Jack, Orange Freestate and Transvaal flags stuck in the middle. That was a 'clean slate' sort of move - they wanted to leave the old regime behind and build a new one.

If we feel that we need to make a break from the past, then perhaps we should change our flag. But what are we breaking away from? Every nation has skeletons in its closet, and ours are among the least abhorrent skeletons out there. Like I said, if we feel the need for a 'new beginning', then a new flag might be an appropriate symbol of that. But if we are not planning to change anything else, then why change our flag?

I think we are putting the cart before the horse. Are we able to change our flag without the authority of the Queen? We are still a monarchy.

Also, I hate it when people make comments about diggers fighting for 'that flag'. There are also, alot of soldiers who would like to see it changed. These sort of emotive comments have no bearing on the argument.

The missus may I say thank you? that post you put up while I was putting mine together is one of the best I have ever seen in this forum.
Now we can both hide under the bed.
Some will see your truth as racism.
I see it as truth and about time we spoke it, cringing in our own corner, forgetting today is our day, and that some will be unhappy with any flag we fly is idiotic.
Thinking a new flag betrays us, our past or future is scatter brain thinking.
Goodonya Friend have a nice Aussie day.

Foxy,
I'm fully aware of Ray Martin's background, after all it was on TV. Celebrities from a poor background always guarantee warm'n fuzzy TV.
He obviously is constantly wearing one of those impression suits when he is doing his job. Obviously, judging by his success many people like him but so did many when they elected Kevin Rudd but he must have stopped wearing his impression suit the day after the election. If you support such people than what of your own character, don't you care what is being done to this Country by such people ? Why is it that people express such concern about our future and yet they support those who try to sabotage any hope for the future simply with their vanity. I really can't fathom such mentality. I'm open to listen to & accept a plausible explanation. So much has occurred under the australian flag. Hardship & plain suffering at first & gradually the physically hard working people (not the frivolous academics) transformed a fledgling community into the great Country Australia. The flag represents this. To change this flag will callously & disrespectfully disregard this past which, even on OLO, always gets dragged up in a passionate manner.

Wow! We need a new flag because Ray Martin said so, wonderful! What colour will it be Ray? Red with a green border sounds good? You know, to represent a watermelon!

foxy and others
IMO Ray Martin is "personality/celeb" as such is an image, one that is phoney as a $3 bill.
Did you see his behaviour with that pathetic example of a comedian [?] Safran [?] from Ch2. A real case of it's OK for me to invade others privacy but not for others to invade mine.

Sure I, object to the front gate stop by what ever his name is, but if you live by the sword so ye shall treated.

It matters not *where* you came *from* or *where* you are *now*, rather *how* you got there and what you *do* now.
No Col not Socialist....humanist clue they're spelt differently.

As for the flag CJ? personally it's as relevant/appropriate as Menzies, Chrissy songs about snow, once a year good will towards men clap trap, Chistmas celebrates God's son's birthday and Australia day being held on 26th January.I could go on but the topic is the flag and I guess what it means/stands for.

IMO it stands for a national myth a * white washing* of a history that
is best in history book and not the source of pride today. It in deed has British colonial overtones, racism and general stupidity/arrogance.
By all means acknowledge, respect the achievements of our forebears but idolize/mythologise them? No thanks. that's a bit like celebrating the Aussie yob. Yep, they exist but should all children be encouraged to emulate them?

I agree that we need a national flag that represents us all as a nation of multi-cultures. Not one that mythologises or raise one group above any other, we *all* built this nation as it is.

Best nation in the world? it doesn't exist.

Personally, I think symbols, national pride is a waste of time. It's the people that motivate me. i.e. would I go to war or die for national pride like most seem to think is important? An emphatic no! But I would die protecting people. Subtle but real difference.

Dear Individual,

Perhaps if you were to read Ray Martin's biography -
you may get a different impression of the man.
But frankly, I don't really care - you're entitled
to your opinion, as I am to mine. I just thought
you were coming on a bit strong and making
judgements about a person I assumed - you knew
little about. For example I wouldn't dream of
calling you an "idiot" simply because your opinion
was different from mine.

As I tried to point out in my opening post - a new
Australian flag is something that should be talked
about only after Australia votes on the question
of becoming a Republic. And this is something that
should be left to the country to vote on. At present
we are still a British colony - and as such the flag
represents that. However - were Australia to decide to
become a fully independent country (respectful of its
British history) then of course it will need a new flag
that will project an authentic and modern Australian
identity.

As another poster said - Let the country decide!
Slanging off at people - calling them "hangers on"
and so forth, and raving on about what needs fixing
in this country's economy - is irrelevant to the
topic - and adds nothing whatsoever to the debate.

Foxy,
I have no intention of calling you or anyone names. I have no right to object to others' opinion. What I believe I have a right to object to is when other people are trying to make changes which may suit or satisfy their ego & vanity & in many cases an ignorance which adversely affects my existence. To drag up & make a huge matter out of something as useless as a new flag is doing nothing more than removing the focus away from real issues which are a matter of real importance to a functional society. Why is it that when people achieve their level of comfort that important issues fade & dissolve into frivolous pursuit. Do they forget that there are many out there who really need help & they're not at all helped by something as MEANINGLESS as a new flag taking up so many resources both financial & governmental. Has anyone any idea how many needy could have been helped with the resources WASTED on the Republican & the flag issue ? Now, Have a great Australia Day. I'm off to spend the arvo with real Australians made up of about 30 ethinc back grounds under the proper australian flag.

Dear Individual,

No one is trying to be contentious
here.

The reason for this debate that CJ has raised
(and Ray Martin has talked about) is because -
we are celebrating Australia Day - and it is
an appropriate time to discuss the issue of
this country's values and aspirations of the 21st
century. People felt that this is an appropriate
time to reflect on Australia's status - as
a nation. Raise the issues - and let the people
decide. The old adage of - "If it ain't broke -
don't fix it," is simply an excuse for laziness
and inaction - as I've stated previously.

I still feel somewhat unclear though, when you refer
to "real" Australians - what do you mean by that?

To me Australia has always represented a
gathering of many cultures, and this is one of the
most unique and rewarding aspects of living in this
country. The nature of being Australian is to be part
of this diversity. The wide and varied gathering of
"identities" is in keeping with the sense of potential
and openess so many people enjoyed on coming here.

Anyway, enjoy your day, as I will - and see you on
another thread.

Foxy et al

You raise an interesting point about 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.
Clearly it is broke or at least an enormous exaggeration as it doesn't represent more than 40% of the public. Those that are either part or non Alglo Saxon,Or those who can't trace direct AS lineage back to.... what?... pre 1840ish.

Clearly a nonsense. The flag should represent all of us and so long as there is the union jack, then we're giving preeminence 'a' racial group not necessarily *the* people responsible for who we are i.e. the indigenous, the afghan camel drivers, Chinese traders, the Chaffey Bros, Cobb brothers(US), Peter Lalor, St Ned, Sthn Victoria was mostly Irish(Irish), most of the Eureka stockade elite weren't British, Ludwig Leichardt, Adelaide Hills, Outer Brisbane German, Nth Qld outer Melbourne, central NSW Italian, Let's not forget the Aussie born either. I could go on. In truth beyond gold being discovered the English actually opening up of Australia wasn't as influential as often believed.

Realistically from 1788-1820 is subject to lessor foreign influence but definitely after 1840 foreigner input was far more noticeable.
Under English influence/rule definitely but....without the other influences AUSTRALIA as we know it wouldn't exist.

The nation was formed 1901 and that should be our *national* day and the flag should be something we can *all* identify with. Hanging on to 'invasion day' and what followed as some aspirational mythology offends my sense of logic and identity.

Foxy, "Australia Day - and it is an appropriate time to discuss the issue of this country's values and aspirations of the 21st century. People felt that this is an appropriate time to reflect on Australia's status - as a nation."

Along with a very large percentage of the population I disagree with that assessment. Critics have all year to discuss their grievances and ideas, yet they choose to do it on or immediately prior to Australia Day. They seek to sensationalise and embarrass for effect. The same critics probably see Xmas as a time to vilify Christians and rant about religion.

Australia Day was never conceived as a time when Australia and its traditions should be criticised and I would hazard a guess that no other country would want its national day similarly disgraced. Unity is expressed by allowing one day at least to be the day when all cares can be set aside and people can concentrate on what the precious things they share and hold in common. The first as far as Australia is concerned is freedom and a great many people came here seeking it.

As per usual the Greens are always desperate for a headline and publicity so Brown leapt at the first chance that came along which happened to be an ex- TV journo's opinion of the flag (Ray Martin is not so capable of deep thought either). This was always a cheap shot by the Greens, who if they really wanted to contribute to future of Australia would be putting forward some practical ideas for sustainability and criticising Rudd's 'populate or bust' (populate until we bust?). Come to think about it, Brown studiously avoided the golden opportunity of Dick Smith's comment on immigration to say anything about sustainability.

Thanks to all for the interesting responses.

A couple stand out:

individual: << I am a newcomer to this country & I see absolutely no point in changing the flag, especially to merely satisfy the ungrateful & unappreciative hangers on. >>

Having said you're a new chum, on what basis do you assert that opinion and how do you assess the "real Australians" you refer to later? Are you suggesting that those Australians who have long been working towards Australian inedependence are "ungrateful and unappreciative hangers on", and/or are not "real Australians"?

Cornflower: << It is very sly to link the flag with racism but it fools no-one, everyone is a wake up to the usual suspects and given time it will rebound on them. >>

Tell that to the bogans at Cronulla and Manly. The fact that the old flag has become a central symbol for the contemporary expression of Aussie racism is a bloody good reason to get rid of it. That there are persuasive reasons concerning shared national identity anyway just adds to the weight of the argument to replace the current flag.

<< Freedom of speech is something we cherish and will be celebrating on Australia Day. >>

So why whinge about those of us who use the symbolic value of Australia Day to do just that, i.e. speak freely about Australia? For what it's worth, I doubt that we'll see either a real Australian flag or a truly sovereign Australian nation in the foreseeable future - but it will happen one day, partly because Australians of diverse political persuasions will persist in raising the issue.

It's not a matter of if, but when - even if 'when' doesn't look like anytime soon :)

I'm with CJ on this one. There is no doubt in my mind that one day we will become a republic and that then we will need a new Australian flag to represent cutting ties with England.

Personally, I would like to see a flag with all the current colours and stars, but without the union jack, and to add some sort of reference to the first Australians.

I am quite happy to continue with 26th January for Australia day, because that was the beginning of the shape that a new Australia would become. The occupation by Europeans and others have made this country the multicultural country it is today. It is one that is envied by others.

Like many other countries in the world that have gone through invasions and occupations in their history, all people of this country just have to get on with living with each other peacefully, or face losing the wonderful life we have here in Australia.

People at Cronulla should have voiced their concern better but the truth is they should never have been put in a position to have to protest at all. Denial of 10 years of race hate from mindless gangs culiminated in this riot. Falure of police, media and government. Same as with Indian students. Of course most offenders are not white anglo-saxon so it must be kept quiet. Harris Park riot was the same reaction to the same thugs. So for me, and having been there and been a victim, I see the failure at government level and I feel those who display ugly, hideous bigotry by calling them bogans far worse. At least they did something to stop mindless intimidation especially toward women. What did you do C J Morgan, just say well women getting raped and hosed down in between sessions is ok because she is probably bogan white trash? Honestly you disgust me.

I am white but not anglo-saxon, not a drop. I would like to write on grandparent thread except I never had any, killed by hate and illness along with half their children.

We do not all have to carry your insane guilt trips as many of us were victims of hate as well. Hate, slavery does not discriminate along race lines. About time self centred, guilt tripping anglo-saxons stopped making it all about them and grow the hell up.

Everyone else is over it.

Plus if anyone has an IQ over ten and they will see that those that are DEMANDED to put up with racist attacks, not to be racist, of course they will choose to be racist. Why does anyone have to put up with what happens to the Cronulla/Southern Sydney people and to the Indian students? Why does ANYONE have to put up with it. If people say because you are white you must deal with it then of course white people will want no further immigration. Logical. You have to be self destructive to think that is ok if my daughter gets raped or my child abused because they are white and seen as easy. thats ok, not it is not.!!

Also near every Indigenous I know, and I know many, do not give a flying fig that today is Australia Day. We listen far too much to loud mouth extremist on each side. Many Indigenous say their culture says not to hold a grudge. They forgive. Of course the white anglo saxon is still trying to run their show and would never stop to listen.

Australia Day - means different things
to different people. The National Holiday
has evolved over the years with the focus
shifting from commemorating the landing of
the First Fleet - to celebrating the Nation's
cultural diversity and promoting unity.

The changes reflect the changing composition of
the population with immigration no longer
stemming primarily from Europe.

Therefore the Celebration of this day - is an
appropriate time to discuss issues relevant
to us all. Of course to those who simply
want to party - with beer, barbeques and the
beach - that's all right as well.

Australians tend to celebrate events - in their
own unique way - as always.

That goes for the flag as well.
I think we're the only nation that
makes - barbeque aprons, shirts, hats,
horse-blankets,
dog blankets, pillows, towels, bikinis,
budgie smugglers out of their flag.

Even Tony Abbott was seen wearing an
apron (upside down one) of our flag today.
(Not very respectful). So I repeat - why

Therefore I can't understand why -
all the fuss - because it seems the flag is
used for a multitude of purposes already.
Do people really want to keep the Union Jack -
so they can make a pillow out of it and sit
on it?

Thanks for your fascinating opinions, TheMisssus.

Do you happen to have any about a new Australian flag?

Put the Aboriginal flag in place of the union jack.
Leave the southern cross and we have a flag.
I found individuals input strange and insulting.
Kick me if you want to but some of what the missus said is quite true.
Cronulla was not just white racists.
Not afraid say one day events will re write that histrionic view of those events.

By a real Australian I'm referring to people who are australian by commitment & choice.
It is my belief that a Country's society can only remain strong as long as its citizens value the standard of living provided by those before them. We must not dismiss the efforts of those before us. We must continue these efforts & we really should not encourage some groups in our society to enjoy the benefits without any input & even undermining the efforts. I have met many good real Australians in 38 years some of whom chose to come here but have met just as many unaustralian Australians, many of whom were born here

I, like 83% of Ozies in a Brisbane TV poll, will stick with the flag we have thanks.

Belly you can keep your so called "Abogiginal" flag well away from any flag designed to represent my country thanks.

The aboriginals had no concept of flag, & no materials to make one, they had totems. The so called "Aboriginal" flag is a concept of white advisers. Real shonks, who have tried to fire up aboriginal claims, mostly for the shonk's benifit, with such things as that flag.

It has no place in aboriginal, or any other part of Australia. I feel slightly sick when I see the rip off merchants succeeding with this kind of trickery.

<< I think a new flag is the least of our concerns at the moment. >>

That is an understatement and a half, Otokonoko.

Ok, so it’s Invasion Day, er…..I mean, Austraaaalia Day, so I guess this is the discussion we had to have on OLO.

But really, it is so piffling. What difference does it make to anything if we keep or lose the UJ from our flag?

There are SO many other massively bigger things to worry about.

There is strong support everywhere for the Australian flag. Australians know that like Hawaiians, we can be fiercely independent AND retain our roots. Anyone ever looked at Hawaii's flag?

http://www.50states.com/flag/hiflag.htm

Typical though for the usual suspects to cock a leg on the flag on Australia Day. Who can aim lower when there are so many important issues in Australia to address? Population and sustainability anyone? Our place in the world?

Once again there was the invitation to celebrate and everybody did just that. Well, almost everybody, there will always be the few who say, 'Nah, bugger that, lets just whinge about 'Aussies', might as well stick with what we're good at'.

Happy Australia Day.

Dear Individual,

Each culture and each wave of migrants - brought
enrichment and diversity to the country we know and
love today. Australia has grown from a cultural
backwater - to one that is today respected the world
over. Many people have worked hard to make this
possible. Past, present, and will undoubtedly
continue to do so in the future.

Not everyone is capable of contributing equally to
this nation for a variety of reasons.
I feel that perhaps your concern is unwarranted,
give yourself time - as you said - you haven't been
here that long - fingers crossed that things will
improve for you with time.

I do not think that changing the flag it would be very helpful for the country, instead the discussion about it could create an unnecessary controversy over a trivial matter and probably it will have a negative impact on more important issues as the abolishment of the citizenship test, which creates real problems to a big part of permanent Australian residents and the reduction of race discrimination, a real HUGE problem
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

..each wave of migrants - brought
enrichment and diversity to the country ...
Foxy,
Most people who came to this country did so with the hope of having a better life & many succeeded. I for one appreciate what the people who came & built before me for my generation to build upon. I feel grateful & appreciate the efforts & endurance & commitment & above all, the foresight of those pioneers. It makes me cringe when I observe what those who simply inherited take so for granted & actually condemn the methods used yet unashamedly & opportunistically enjoy the standard of living that was provided not by them but for them. Since the early 70's when the tsunami of the self righteous swamped Australia & indeed most of the western world people have been taught (yes taught) to disregard & even criticise (of course with the benefit of hindsight) the hand that feeds them. I guarantee that left to their own initiative & competence 95% of these critics would only survive until the fridge is empty.
Many immigrants have contributed much to building Australia & that's why it is vital that the immigration policies not get laxed too much more. We experience the results of this lax now & I for one believe that a new tide of immigrants with an agenda if not taken seriously will turn Australia from the lucky Country into the silly Country that missed the boat by letting all the boats in. Take a long look at the flag & try to envisage an Australia after the self righteous have turned it upside down.

CJ, Foxy & Suzeonline,

You are all spot on.
But first we need an Australian Head of State.
Call the Head of State 'Governor General' not President.
Call our nation 'Commonwealth of Australia' not The Republic.
We do this first - then change the flag by;
Removing the UK Jack and leaving the Fed' Star & Southern Cross on the blue field - thats all.
No change to our system of government.

I wonder how people internalize the green and gold V red white and blue as national colours.
Why not make up our minds? and go with green and gold and a flag the same.

Green background and Gold Southern Cross and Federation star.
If we get Abbott in we could bend one of the point to represent the Australian territory exorcised from the legal coverage.

I wonder how many Aussies can name the individual stars, the number of points on the fed star, why that number. or how many verses our 'national anthem' has let alone recite them.

I bet the no change brigade couldn't pass such an elemental test.

My point is, it's all emotional curmudgeonary nonsense to be wedded to symbols you can't answer basic questions on.

Hasbeen,that same TV station a few years back asked "is a unicameral system a good idea" ....40% admitted didn't know what it was, but 63% said it shouldn't be introduced into Queensland... ps it means single house government, Queensland is the only *state* that is, since the 1920's. Be careful of quoting public media polls. 64% are meaningless and 82% don't mean anything (sic).

Sounds sensible JMCC.

<< No change to our system of government. >>

Yes, in terms of our current system as opposed to a republic system.

But boy, we sure do need some fundamental changes in our system of government in other ways.

I’m non-plussed by the monarchist/republic debate because I can’t see that it would lead to any significant improvements to our governance or to the future wellbeing of the Australian nation or its people.

Thus, I see this discussion as a little virtually meaningless distraction from what really matters.

If a republic meant that we’d dump Rudd’s gravely bad massively-high-immigration big-Australia grossly-antisustainable political direction and embrace a stable-population sustainability-paradigm approach, then I’d be all for it.

The Missus and Individual,
Agree with you both on this issue.

Foxy said, "Each culture and each wave of migrants - brought
enrichment and diversity to the country we know and
love today"

Yes that is right but, not acknowledged by those that see multiculturalism through rose coloured glasses, some cultures also bring hatreds and alien ways with them as well. Even some 2nd and 3rd generations do not see themselves as Aussies and display no love or respect for our society. Some utterly refuse to integrate.

The violence at the tennis is an example of retained ultra-nationalism. These people do not have any real interest in the standard of tennis being played.

It is now being revealed that we have multicultural racism, where gangs of ethnics pick on and bash individuals of another ethnicity. Sad to say that some anglo-Aussies appear also to be involved. Indian students are the main victims but it is not exclusive to them.

It seems that Lebs, Islanders, Maoris, Asains and Africians have been cited as attackers. A few months ago there was violence between Sri Lankans and in one attack acid was poured over the victim.

I am angry that the media, police and politicians allowed the world to think that anglo-aussies are to blame, through ommission of the ethnicity of the attackers.

Welcome to the wonderfull world of multiculturalism!

Our present flag acknowledges that we inherited the British parliamentry system (slightly ammended) and judicial system. In fact most of our basic institutions stemmed from Britian and have contributed much to the stability of our country. There are many countries that do not enjoy the safety and stability we have.

For that we should be eternally gratefull, so leave the flag as it

Dear Individual, Banjo,

I understand your fears - they've been
with us for generations. Each new wave
of migrants brought the "fear of the unknown"
with them into this country - Poles, Italians,
Vietnamese, Greeks, and other ethnics -
all went through the "them"
and "us" syndrome. Labelling is
disabling. The diagnosis may become the
disease. People often tend to live up
to negative predictions - especially
if they're being excluded. They become
what they're told they are. People need help
to settle in - they need understanding - and
to be made to feel welcome in a strange land.

The simple fact is - if you're
not acceptable to the mainstream - you develop
your own ghettos - and live with people that
understand you and you understand them. The same
goes for Aussies in London - who tend to group
together.

Migrants also have little representation in the
political institutions that make decisions.

We can finger-point all we like - but perhaps it
would be better to look at the root causes of
WHY things are happening - and re-education just
may be the key - starting with the young at school.
Treating people as aliens won't solve the problem -
it will only increase it.

As for the flag? I don't think anyone is
deliberately trying to demean the one we have.
On the contrary, I think all that is being asked -
is that we debate the issue. If Australians feel
that what we have should remain as is - I don't
have a problem with that. It's up to the people
to decide. However what I do have a problem with
is being told that we're not allowed to discuss
the issue. And if we do, we're somehow doing
harm.

Change the flag? pft. Why? Because it no longer represents Australia well enough or it's symbolism has been hijacked?

So what happens the next time Australia has something to be ashamed of? Do we change it again?

I think we should change the flag every time we lose the Ashes if that's the case.

What happens when a Klu Klux Klan member is premier of Victoria?
Change the flag the next year?

Or when young bogans cape themselves in the new flag?
Change it again?

As for Ms Hardy, well, it's nice to bang on about racism while showing deep seated class prejudice.

All this Australia day cringing is really just an excuse for good ol' Bogan bashing.

Great fun though it is!

examinator,

The national or sporting colours of many countries are different to their flag colours. It is usual, not unusual.

Australia's national colours were rightly blue and gold, but through of common use - said to have been started by a cricket team that wore caps with 'Wattle Tree's Green Leaf and Gold Wattle flower' - the colours adopted in 1984 were green and gold.

Gough Whitlam preferred the original blue and gold but went along with green and gold. Gough also fixed up the previous weird paw position of the roo on the coat of arms (stylised and formal versions) and gave the buck red roo an impressive reddish chest (virility).

To All
One of the reasons there is so much support for the present Australian flag is that people are concerned about political correctness overcoming tradition and common sense.

It is a considered a crime to criminalise a race in Australia if some of their members commit race hate crime. That is if you mention the race, too often, if at all then the ethnic leaders can sue for racial vilification. It is a human right not to be vilified due to your race alone. So when anyone is target of race hate crime by minorities the police etc are put between rock and hard place. To admit it is racist is to say *INSERT RACE* is racist against Indians, whites or Indigenous etc, members of accused race can then make formal complaint to HEROC. However the law is discriminatory because the same laws do not apply to "white race".

The reasoning is how Foxy suggests, ethnic groups do not have large enough populations to have racial political representation but whites do. So you see support for parties like One Nation or the in the UK the BNP. Both considered racist so even the reason a white person has no human rights law against racial vilification of their race is considered racist?

Not sure if that is clear but is why all the screws are loose on the subject. It is also why some will join a "white" political party. The reason they have no human rights like others is because they can vote this way.

I could not give a flying fig what race people are but am really sick of this Australia is racist, the flag is racist nonsense, and the victimisation of people who as far as I can see have perfectly equal footing. I really only care about Indigenous Australians as a racial subject, the rest usualy a bunch of crybabies and white guilt trippers who are too coward to apologise for their own sin but want to share it round like some form of Bird Flu.

Now onto subject of Bogan, Redneck. etc, I am not real sure who they are. I see Van Rudd as a child who is easily led by propoganda and see the racist rubbish against whites. Is he a bogan? I am sure he has not been disadvantaged. I see he protested KKK style while his "race" asians were busy beating up Indians. Is he a bogan? He is not classy, not informed, uneducated. Bogan Van? Brownneck?

Or is it ONLY working class. Working class are not racist. You throw one bone to 5 dogs all of different breed a fight may break out. Are these dogs racist? Oh how the comfortable are ugly with their shallow judgements. Like life is some cheap reality TV show.

Egalitarian was once the most wonderful trait of Australia yet so many keen to flush this quality down the toilet while they embrace fake class structures based on celebrity and trend. All idealism long abandoned.

Working class fractured along ethnic lines and divide and conquor strategy going as planned. Divided they fall. Oh how sheeple we can be be. Then the anti-flag brigade come out, full of bluster on all things they do not understand nor feel, no care for. Just a bunch of Hyacinth Bucket's (bou-quet) boors clogging the airwaves.

I wish I was French.

I say; leave the flag alone. As there is only one possible end-design for the new flag, out of a hundred million or so possibilities, only a very small proportion of the population would ever be truly happy with it.

Most people would either be unhappy that it was changed at all or unhappy with the chosen final product…..or apathetic!

Very few people indeed would be happy with it, I’d reckon.

So a new flag, no matter how nice it might be, would be more (probably a lot more) divisive than helpful.

I wish I was French too Missus. You talk of loose screws and well, you're walking into something with those rants. Keep em coming though!

The French have an arrogance I admire. I like their views on sex too. I love it when Parisians who speak English refuse to do so to foreigners. I think it's funny. Good on em.

I like your 5 different dogs after a bone. I'm with you on the Bogan haters, and CJ, sorry, you're guilty as charged.

'Just a bunch of Hyacinth Bucket's (bou-quet) boors clogging the airwaves.'

Even pontificator got a mention.

You rock Missus!

'I really only care about Indigenous Australians as a racial subject, the rest usualy a bunch of crybabies and white guilt trippers who are too coward to apologise for their own sin but want to share it round like some form of Bird Flu.'

That's excellent!

Examinator,
You are right about people not knowing about the stars on our flag or the words to our anthem, but they do recognise them when they see the flag or hear the anthem.

This has far more to do with our education than anything else. For years now schooling has done little to teach kids Australian history or Australiana. Recently I asked a 12 year old, in NSW, who crossed the Blue Mountains, when and its significance. He did not know. My grandaughter,14 years and in Melbourne, could not tell me when Melbourne was settled or the present Governor of Vic.

Ask a kid now to recite 'My Country' or a Banjo or Lawson poem/story.

Teaching about other cultures has been far more important. I consider we have the priorities wrong.

Seeing as everyone is having a bit of a
rant - I'll add my two cents worth...

Here goes:

Wouldn't it be great if the good will
that surrounds Australia Day can extend
to the other 364 days of the year, through
respect for other people; civility;
a welcoming smile; extending the hand of
friendship; sharing celebrations and food.

These are simple virtues. And they are powerful.

It's up to us - what sort of identity we have!

new wave
of migrants brought the "fear of the unknown.
Foxy,
I'm afraid your attempt to frivolize the concerns of those who care are a generation too late. There is no fear of the unknown, we know ! We have seen the evidence since '72.
As for the flag & not being allowed to discuss the issue ? The issue here is not the discussion, the issue is the needlessness & apparent lack of discussion for those whose issues are of far far greater need than a mere flag. Are the pro flaggers as passionate in matters of pensioners or other needy ? What about a discussion of putting a stop to the stupidifying of intelligent children ? How about a passionate discussion on issues of daily life for the victims of insane bureaucracy & corrupt but protected Superannuation company bosses etc. etc.

Dear Individual,

I'm sorry if I don't appear to share your
passion or depth of feeling but I don't
understand what it is exactly that you
claim when you say, "We know!"
On whose behalf are you speaking and what
or who exactly,- do you know?

Actually I'm not trying to trivialize the issues -
I'm merely attempting to stay on topic - which is
the Australian Flag. However, seeing as you've
brought up all these other issues that are of
concern to you - why don't you start your own
threads on some of them - as they really are
too numerous to deal with on this one and I'm
sure that CJ would appreciate our not de-railing
his thread.

Anyway, isn't it great that we can all be proud of
the Australian way of life - a classless society
where everyone is given a fair go regardless of
race, colour or creed. Because if we looked back
historically to the 1950s - as Mr Howard wanted us
to do - we'd have - only white faces as far as the
eyes could see. But today, the NIMBY attitude (not
in my backyard) exists with only a small minority.
Is that what you know?

We (those who care) are concerned at the acceleration of the trend of disregard, lack of integrity & selfishness over the past 35 years hence we know what's to come. The dissatisfaction with the present flag is part of this trend. It is deeply entwined with the attitude that effort & responsibility should be everybody else's. This idea that all we have at our fingertips is a natural entitlement. All of today's priviledges are in fact born of the efforts by those who who did all of it under this flag. They did this to build a better life for the next generation of Australians not to have their efforts condemned by those who have no idea about effort. Those who condemn the NIMBY attitude but keep remarkably stumm when the NIMBY attitude is of non-caucasian source. I personally don't give a hoot about this nonsensical colour drivel but what other choice of retort is there to such an accusation. What I am greatly concerned about is the ATTITUDE of people not what they're born as, especially under this flag..

Foxy, "if we looked back historically to the 1950s ..... we'd have - only white faces as far as the eyes could see. But today, the NIMBY attitude (not in my backyard) exists with only a small minority."

That is absolute garbage and a terrible insult to Australia.

WW2 disrupted the lives of millions in Europe and there was a flood of displaced people, many of whom had lost everything, including their families. It was in response to this tidal wave of lost and needy people that Australia had its first boom in immigration to its shores. I will not go on further except to note that by 1950, 200,000 migrants had arrived, but I hope you will read this link and realise how insulting your inference was:

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/04fifty.htm

You might cherry-pick instances to damn some people for their attitudes but it is churlish to disregard the very real and honest attempt by Australia to take as many migrants as possible from war-torn Europe.

In fact it was the resolve and enthusiasm to come to the aid of displaced people and refugees that gave rise to most of the problems cited by migrants - coming from highly sophisticated European cities, migrants found Australia primitive, ill-equiped and lacking the basics like transport and entertainment (theatres, music halls, opera). Australia simply didn't have the infrastructure (sound familiar), Australians themselves were poor, rationed, lacked housing and industry and had to 'make do'. They didn't miss what they never had, but they were often looked down on by European migrants for their lack of 'culture'.

Australian of the Fifties did a sterling job in taking migrants and your quip about 'white faces' and 'NIMBY' was factually incorrect and unnecessary.

Foxy, was it you who once said that your own parents fled Europe (Lithuania?) at some time? What conflict was that?

Since no aboriginal flag existed prior to colonisation, and there were hundreds of different aboriginal identities, surely the aboriginal flag is of itself a colonial development?

The Union Jack means exactly that; a union of three nations England, Ireland and Scotland in one cultural heritage. It is from that cultural heritage Australia its government, institutions and laws were established, settled and developed. Our flag reprersents our union with a culture of freedom, service, mutual intergration and coperation.

Our universal culture is not founded in an aboriginal way of life, nor is it based on the laws of various sports.

Grasp what are the sources of our culture before any flag is flown representing the basis of Australian culture.

Hey all this talk about the Southern cross tattooed flag waving bogans reminds me of one of the funniest bits of TV last year.

The chaser guys walked around Mosman asking people about the idea of a new Mosque being built. There was some classic responses, the funniest being a woman who said, 'oh noooo, not in Mosman!'. The reporter then asked where they should build the Mosque, and she replied, 'In the Western Suburbs'.

The average bogan doesn't have the option that the Mosmonite does. NIMBY indeed. Out of sight, out of mind, and a safe place from which to look down on the lower classes for their 'racism'.

In my view, the appropriate time to consider changing the flag would be when we find the motivation and purpose to become a republic. Until then, it is pretty much a sterile debate.

But in contemplating the issue as it has been ping-ponged around this thread, it occurred to me to wonder...

...should we have a flag at all?

Think for a moment of a medal-winner at the Olympics, standing on the dais, with no flag up the pole behind them. Think of the enormous sense of personal achievement - "I did it!" - that they would experience.

But I guess that would deprive us of our vicarious victory - especially as we will have paid plenty for it.

Seriously, apart from sporting occasions and war memories, what do we need it for?

Dear Cornflower,

Kindly re-read my post.

What I was referring to was Mr Howard's conservative
outlook on boat people with the scandalous and brutal
bill that he proposed to block all access to Australia
of all asylum seekers arriving by boat. This type of
mentality would take us back to the days of the "White
Australia" policy. Which existed in the 1950s.
However, that kind of thinking - as I pointed out -
exists today among a small minority.

My parents were refugees from Lithuania,
- fleeing communism -
and were part of The Displaced Persons Scheme,
established in 1947 between the Australian Government and
the International Refugee Organisation, which saw 170,000
displaced persons arrive in Australia between 1947 and
1951. They were all committed to two years' labour,
invariably doing jobs rejected by other Australians.
I don't need to have you tell me about their contribution
to this country or how warmly they were received,
or how welcome they were made to feel.
"Speak English," was a phrase heard regularly on trains
and buses. Words like "Bloody New Australians"
were bandied about, other terms like - "Wog," and
"Dago," were also popular. Their qualifications were
not recognised. But hey - they survived - and worked
hard, and made a home here. They were part of the
people who created the diversity that is Australia today.

I have every right to speak out against My Howard's
harking back to the 1950s - to the times when Australian
families were made up of - a mother, father, three kids,
quarter acre blocks, white picket fences, and only white
faces as far as the eyes could see. This was the Australia
that Howard wanted to bring back with his legislation -
and as I said - it's an Australia that a small minority
would prefer to see today.

If, that insults you - Good! It means your heart's
in the right place!

I actually quite like the current flag - or at least I used to until its recent appropriation by the ugly racist minority. It'd look even better without the British flag in the corner though. I also like the other significant Australian flags, i.e. the Aboriginal flag and the Eureka flag.

It's pretty obvious from the comments that the national flag is an important symbol to many - whether or not they want it changed. Some people are quite passionate about wanting to retain the old flag, others want a new flag, while others are very clear about what they don't want on the national flag.

Some people are offended that many Australians wish to raise the question of a new flag at all, others talk in slogans without much apparent experience of Australia nor knowledge of our history, yet others assert that there are more pressing issues we should be addressing as a nation (like road rules, for example?).

I like JMCC's suggestion as practical first step to Australia asserting its independence. Many thanks to Foxy and the other more open-minded participants in the face of the predictable and somewhat garbled intransigence of some. It's been quite an interesting and diverse discussion so far :)

C J oooh fight bigotry with bigotry, how progressive.

The Smarmy Army tut-tutting their way through drink parties about those people! Who would have though them so intolerant? I guess it is simply a human condition.

Here in FNQ where I live, very mixed race but the trouble is those southerners that move up and try and change the place. Why don't they go back to where they came from.

Guess it always is someone else's fault.

TheMissus: << C J oooh fight bigotry with bigotry, how progressive. >>

What bigotry are you talking about? We're discussing the Australian flag here, and whether the nation needs a new one.

I must say I'm finding it increasingly difficult to decipher your posts. Have you been drinking or smoking the funny stuff?

I'm still with you Missus.

CJ's just now distancing himself from his endorsement of the 'small dicked redneck' callings of Marieke Hardy. He's a slippery sucker.

'ugly Aussie racist minority'

That's a turnaround for you CJ. You've always implied that you thought the majority is racist. Or Australia is a racist country at least.

Or is it only the bogans that are ugly racists while the upper classes are still racists but not so ugly.

Cornflower et al
I'm with foxy here. As I said originally the whole point of a *national* flag is a symbol that *everyone*, at least a vast majority can identify with, as an inclusive symbol.
My point was that the current flag isn't that. It has nothing to do with P.C.
Did any of you note that I didn't mention specifically signifying the aboriginal flag being included?
I didn't because that would also be proffering a myth.
- The aboriginals were several nations not one the flag is a notional one.
- They are *part* of the whole as are all the rest. Not a singled out race like the union jack symbolizes.

As for making the refugees welcome....hah! They were seen as a necessary evil and treated likewise. Go to Bonagilla (Wodonga) camp and have a look at their conditions read their history. corrugated iron Quansit huts on concrete bases....consistently 38+ in summer and below zero in winter. Heat stroke an pneumonia were common.

And there were the predatory camp officials, demanding favours from women. Oh yes, there were the second hand uniforms.Which were dealt out. And the inmates were made to wear their best and national dress on special visitations like trained performing monkeys.

I'll bet you don't know about the riots and revolts over the sub human condition there (for our friends). The forced adoptions etc.

Oh yes, the patronizing Australian matrons who come to the camps to teach culture.... Bollocks! read the history its there and not the white wash utopian generosity you're proffering.

That was in addition to the blatant prejudice foxy mentioned and your WASP/C daughter fraternizing/marrying a refo Oh my god the shame. But it was ok for the lad to sew their wild oat with them after all they're refos.
I remember the Govt programs trying to get Aussies to accept the migrants. It took a lot of effort.

Like foxy, I am one such progeny, I was adopted out to Aussies, bitter no! just realistic.

C J

I am a druggie then? LOL You are addicted to pigeon holing people tut tut, not nice. I do not do drugs, I have a tendancy to get myself into enough trouble without them. Certainly far too early in the day to drink, still working. Wait, maybe that's the problem lol

Houellebecq,
I find the so called bogan type more likely to be the local SES volunteer, more likely the one to be doing the real hard yakka the nations' wealth is actually built on, and more likely to be the one to help a neighbour.

I think perhaps pride in being Australian also has it's benefits in the contribution they make to society in traditional ways. Take away the pride I doubt you will find some sand bagging your house for free if flood waters rising or helping you out when you get stuck in mud while touring the outback. So if a few get a bit "too" nationalistic on occasion we should remember that passion, though sometimes misplaced, is more often than not well placed.

I also accept that the integration process of newer migrants is largely left to the working class. Crude and rude at times true, but what are the alternates? The paternal racism and everlasting victimisation that the so called race relations experts have foistered on Indigenous? Ethnic cleansing if I may call it, is required if any migrant wants to be accepted into the cultureless Smarmy Army Class called Capitalism with a Latte, afterall they would never entertain a mosque in their midst, as you quite rightly point out. Please filter out the negatives and arrive with ethnic restaurant only!

Simply cultural cringe but we are nation built on resources, not accountants and lawyers. If they want to get paid they should really start kissing Bogan Butt.

Foxy

Why cherry-pick and generalise to disgrace a whole population, just to savage a long gone Prime Minister?

To re-cap, within five years of war's end Australia welcomed nearly 200,000 refugees from the shambles that was Europe. This was after Australia had lost thousands of its able young men liberating Europe from a tyrant. If you read newspapers of the time, you cannot but be affected by the descriptions of the sight that confronted the observer: Australia was a nation of women and old men, the young men that were seen were crippled by the ravages of war, often without limbs and using the most primitive of supports to help them.

Australia in the Forties and Fifties was far behind Europe in its industrialisation, business, cultural alternatives and so on and it was sorely stretched to even house and provide the essentials like medical care to its own people. Australian hospitals, the undeveloped post war infrastructure and the immature economy were desperately trying to cope with thousands of ex-servicemen broken by two successive world wars.

Australia had decimated its male youth twice in the carnage of WW1 and WW2. Then there was the Great depression in between that was cruel to a developing nation. During WW2, all production had been directed at war essentials including food for Europe. Later, industry and factories had to be re-directed and re-tooled. Providing employment for migrants was a priority, the de-mobbed soldiers were not always so lucky, many had come from the country and could not claim the industry skills such as metal turning that migrants from more highly industrialised European countries could claim.

Unemployment in Australia post-WW2 was endemic for the local population and it is a myth that men turned their noses up at manual work, as evidenced by the overwhelming number of Australians working in (say) stevedoring, railways, slaughterhouses and on farms. It could be argued that Australians did the lion's share of the unskilled dirty, disgusting and dangerous work.

Strange how people’s memories differ.

We lived in a Nissan hut when we first migrated. Migrant hostels were charming places. Yuck really (understatement). We then went upmarket to a 2 room shed, no bathroom but we had the outdoor dunny. They called it a temp. Road was dirt, pot holed and no sewerage system. Had the time of my life. There was lots of bush to explore, tadpoles to catch and dogs to terrorise.

“ Go home” yes a bit, but less than what history suggests. It neglects to acknowledge the kind freckle faced neighbours that were there come thick or thin. It also neglects that is was nothing compared to the scenes that were left behind.

My father never ever complained, not once, and was eternally grateful to this nation where he could finally build a future for his children. If still alive, even as an immigrant, I am sure his chant would be the one he first learned when he arrived. If you do not like it, leave! Stop your whining and get on with it.

I guess if you came from a very oppressed background it was and/is wonderful. If you come from privileged background and are a bit precious then maybe Australia may not live to up to expectation.

From my experience as a migrant though I see no reason why Australians cannot wave their flag, have a beer and a bit of a back slap, they bloody well deserve it !

Dear Cornflower,

Professor Algis P. Taskunas from the
University of Tasmania, in his book,
"Lithuanian Studies in Australia,"
tells us that:

" The initial two-year work contracts were the
Lithuanian migrants' first major contribution to
Australia. They helped to solve an acute labour
shortage in Australia, especially in outlying
areas. Along with other European migrants,
they 'relieved the shortage of domestic staff in
hospitals, increased the output of building
material, helped to build Australian homes, roads,
saved fruit and sugar crops... maintained railways,
worked in sawmills, brick factories, cement works,
on sewerage projects, water conservation, salt and
brown coal mining, clearing land, quarrying, etc.

At Wooroloo T.B. Sanatorium in Western Australia,
the migrants solved a real crisis when the Sanatorium
staff had shrunk from 80 to 13. The Sanatorium was
on the point of turning away patients when 40 Baltic
women were allotted to it and normal resvices were
restored.

At Gippsland Hospital, Victoria, 28 Balts made possible
the opening of a new T.B. ward. In New South Wales,
60 Balts enabled hospitals to keep several wards open.

A report by the Commonwealth Emplyment Service dated
Sept. 1948 stated: "They (the first 4000 displaced
persons) are everywhere employed upon work for which
sufficient Australian labour is not available...
This review of their activities over a very short period
suggests how much impetus their availability in large
numbers is likely to give to our housing program and to
our production in other industries which are vital
to the Australian economy.

The fair-skinned Lithuanians and other European arrivals
were seen as a tangible response to the popular call of
the day, to "populate or perish." Their presence
helped to allay the Australian population's fears of the
"yellow hordes in the north."

When speaking of the Baltic migrants contribution to
Australia, the politicians and others usually emphasise
the newcomers' economic impact. This is true, but is only
a part of the full story. On arrival in this country,
Lithuanians had joined other migrants in the rebuilding
of Australia's capital structures that were to serve the
nation for many decades to come."

cont'd ...

cont'd...

"The same migrants could have accomplished a great
deal more, if the Australian authorities had made
full use of their skills and knowledge, instead of
treating them all as unskilled labour. Nevertheless,
their economic contribution was significant at a
time when Australia needed it most."

Just for your information - I was born in this country,
as was one of my brothers. My parents and other
European migrants - paid their dues -
in blood, sweat, and tears - their contribution to this
country is now a part of history - and it has been
acknowledged in historical records of the period.
All National Libraries have this information freely
available - for those willing and able to do further
research on the subject.

Foxy

Where does it support your assertion that, "They (migrants) were ...invariably doing jobs rejected by other Australians."?

Well my memory was that about all work was basic, not really comparable to today. Lack of skills meant no barrier. Social benefits were pretty non-existant. This was true the world over. If you had work you got great rates of pay, overtime and all sort of incentives. Today is far worse for the unskilled as near every job requires a uni degree, even street sweeping requires a wall mounted certificate.

I must admit I am not true blue Aussie shiela as I have emigrated twice from Aussie after immigrating here with my family as a child. It is an honest country, really. Why I bommerang back all the time and not till my older age do I appreciate this country so much.

For our Ukraine, Latvian and Lithuanian friends a real nice video, tears for the past but not for now, nor for the future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=vOhf3OvRXKg#t=00

Examinator, if you want to be considered a d1ck head, just keep talking like one. Be careful there, you'll have me crying for those poor soles in the migrant camps. Or at least I would if I had not shared much tougher conditions, with many native Ozies, at that time.

My father came out of the airforce, with a cheep suit, & 16 pounds. From there we were on our own. He was 30, with a wife & son, had missed out on his education, & was never to catch up, financially.

We did not get tax payer supplied accommodation, we provided our own. My family were a little lucky. Dad had scrounged enough cement for us to have a floor that only got wet, in real bad weather. Many of our neighbours had dirt floors, in our tin huts.

Not nice quonset huts for us. Most of ours were clad in flattened kerosene tin metal. We were lucky that local farmers had to run their tractors on kero, or we wouldn't have had that. Still, living in a tin hut is OK, when most of your friends do, as well.

We lived in that hut for 2 years, before we managed to get enough materials to build the first two & a half rooms of a real house. Some of our neighbours were still in their tin huts, when we moved on, 3 years later. My room was the half room, we never did get the materials for the 4Th wall.

There was a bit of ill will towards the "reffos" getting high paying jobs at the Snowy scheme, which our blokes weren't allowed, for some reason, but apart from that no one cared where you were from.

Our lives would have been much easier, if Oz had not taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees, we would not have had such bad shortages of everything, but I never heard anyone complain. Taking in those folk was never in question.

Hasbeen,
Please get new glasses then read my piece again in *context*. I wasn't there I was adopted out to a family like yours.
The post was in answer to Cornflower's claims that the migrant were welcomed out of the Aussies good hearts. and the 50's were halcyon days of community yarder yarder. They weren't

I agree with you my family did it tough too.

I just don't accept the rose coloured view of the Australia in the 50's like that lump Howard.
I reject the notion that untill the 50 Australia was Wasp/c. historic texts show it wasn't.
So why proffer the myth further and treat all other groups as insignificant by singling out one group above all i.e. the union jack on the aussie flag.

Do keep up old fella.

Dear Cornflower,

Thanks for asking.

It was taken from the book by Liz Thompson,
called, "From Somewhere Else."

But there are other historic records - from
numerous books by different authors on the subject to -
government reports - to the book by Professor
Taskunas that I cited earlier - that
can easily be accessed
through your regional and national libraries.

As well as of course - from people who actually
lived through those times and their personal experiences -
like those of my family members, Examinator's - and others.

Anyway, its got to be understood that up until
the early 1970s, assimilation and the preservation of
"White Australia" continued as the Australian
Government's official policies. Migrants of every
ethnic origin were expected to assimilate promptly
into a monocultural mould of Australian identity,
based on the Anglo-Saxon and Celtic culture.

The ideal immigrant was the one who assimilated
easily, one who "became more similar to the host
population as a result of social interaction and
through the shedding of attributes of their culture."

Anyway, enough said - I don't want to go into the
entire history of that period - the topic of this
thread is after all - the Australian flag.
And, as I wrote in my first post - it's up to the
country to decide - whether it wants to change
anything - or leave things as they are.

Cornflower,
Just a parting note.
As an Aussie adopted child growing up in PNG partially between indigenous and Aussie culture of the 50/60 I witnessed systemic appalling colonial behaviour. Much of which was illegal or immoral then.
Coming back to Collingwood (Melb) the discrimination against non Anglo Saxons was palpable and rampant. I do *not* say Aussies are any worse than others but they certainly weren't any better.

In my early years in PNG life was for me a hoot not knowing or caring about the adult reality such is the remembrances of all children, including those whose playground was a rubbish tip.
That is to me why a child's world such an important place. It sets the adult.
There are online migrant displays on the national lirary and some state Libraries/museums. Bonagilla has a website and books pamphlets of those time albeit a little sanitised.I am not or would be angry with you just the notion that Aussies are all saints and the 1950 = the tv families of the time....pure fantasy.

It is because of recognition of reality and the ongoing part non Anglo Saxons including the indigenous,migrants played in this *nation* i advocate a national flag that reflects this, not single out AS as something clearly they all weren't.
But that is my opinion and the final decision as foxy said is *All* the people's.

Dear Cornflower,

I forgot to add a couple of references for your
information - (as you asked):

1) Cropley, A.
"The bloody Balts! A phenomenological
approach to understanding adjustment of Baltic
migrants to Australia."
Baltic studies newsletter, 26 (2/102), 1-8.
2002.

2) Jupp, J.
"From White Australia to Woomera: The story
of Australian Immigration."
Cambrdige University Press, Port Melbourne, 2002.

3) Kunz, E.
"The intruders: Refugee doctors in Australia."
Australian National Press, Canberra, 1975.

4) Panich, C.
"Sanctuary? Remembering post-war immigration."
George Allen & Unwin, Sydney, 1988.

5) Theophanous, A.C.
"Understanding multiculturalism and Australian
identity."
Elikia Books, Melbourne, 1995.

6) Tarvydas, R.
"From amber coast to apple isle: Fifty years of
Baltic immigrants in Tasmania, 1948-1998."
Baltic Semicentennial Commemoration Activities
Organising Committee, 1997.

7) Taskunas, A.P.
"Five common myths about migrants in Australia."
Chapter 4 in Taskunas, A.P. ed. (1981).
"Industrial relations: Introductory readings."
Dept. of Political Science, University of Tasmania. 1981.

8) Vasta, E. & Castles, S. eds.
"The teeth are smiling: the persistence of racisms in
multicultural Australia."
Allen & Unwin, St Leonards, NSW. 1996.

Then of course there's also classics like the film
"Silver City," starring Steve Bisley, Ivar Kants,
Ava Maria Monticelli, Gosia Dobrowolska - which
vividly captures the lifes of post WWII immigrants in
Australia - with writers like Thomas Kenneally,
contributing to the script.

The film should be available at any State Film Centre -
or State/National Library.

Hope this helps.

Whatever the faults of policies past certainly beats the crap we have to deal with now. I feel I am persecuted just because I decided to live here. Sort of thought we came here to get away from that was the reason we did come. What a load of crying over nothing. I have lived on 3 continents and this country has the least to cry about but cries and whines the most.

How about we just end Multi-culturalism becasue Australia will NEVER ever be able to please such a large range of whiners.

Dear TM,

This may give you and other readers a bit of a giggle.
I came across it quite by accident:

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26634699-5013016,00.html

Its an article in the Courier Mail by Anna Caldwell,
January 26, 2010.

I'll quote a bit from it:

"Controversy is set to be fried up today with an Australian
egg company launching a cultural dig at the British.

Named the "Whingeing Pom Egg," they feature a frowning
face the opposite to the usual Sunny Queen smiling eggs.

The carton says the eggs: "help you wake up cranky
and keep on whingeing all day long."

In a press release the company claims it studied
"behavioural traits of Poms in their natural habitat."

It quotes Assoc. Professor Lliam Anderson -
"Our research found that the English preferred to wake
up in a less optimistic, less good-humoured mood.
Further still, we found that the gene responsible for
whingeing is larger in Poms than in any other race,
particularly Aussies, confirming that whingeing is
actually part of the British generic make-up."

Sunny Queen Eggs are going to trial the eggs in
Sydney and Melbourne.

What a great argument, an imperfect past legitimizes today's mindlessness.

Foxy

Again, where does any of that support your assertion that, "They (migrants) were ...invariably doing jobs rejected by other Australians."?

It is easy to trash Australia or any other country by cherry-picking, taking things out of context and by not comparing and contrasting with other countries, especially where the past is concerned - but for what purpose and where does that get you?

Bible (Matthew), “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

examinator

Your straw men, your problem, deal with them.

Foxy, "Named the "Whingeing Pom Egg," they feature a frowning
face the opposite to the usual Sunny Queen smiling eggs."

However the photo accompanying the article is of recently arrived, brown, shaven-headed, angry eggs, not the usual chalk-white of the English at all.

Hmmmm.....but after flipping through the PC rule book it appears you are right. The Politically Correct Catch 22 being that only those of Anglo Celtic ancestry and gingers may be joked about with impunity. So they must be Poms and fair game (like Aussies).

Apologies to the English, it is a joke in poor taste that will backfire commercially and rightly so.

Dear Cornflower,

I gave you the Liz Thompson book - where the author
clearly provides the information that you asked me
to verify - I gave you an entire list of other
sources where this information is also verified.
I cited a film - where again these historical facts
are provided - and I told you that this information
can also be verified in heaps of other historical
records at National and State Libraries - as well as
from individual experiences of my own family members,
those of Examinator's and others - who had actually
lived through that period.

If that isn't enough for you - then perhaps you'd
better examine your own mindset and give closer
inspection to the reasons behind why this is the case?
I can't do any more.

As for the "Whingeing Pom Eggs," - come on.
How on earth could you take that seriously?
The entire article is done - tongue-in cheek!
If you were to read my thread -
"From Somewhere Else," where a
British poster with a delicious sense of humour
related the story - of the "Bacchus Marsh Lion Park,"
in Victoria - that had signs up outside,
"Poms on bicycles admitted free!"

In any case - don't you know that it takes
a genius to whinge appealingly?

My advice to you my dear is:

"Fear less, hope more; Eat less, chew more;
Whine less, breathe more; Talk less, say more,
Love more, and all good things will be yours!"

Today the race discrimination against Asians is bigger than 15 years before.
There is a study from Australian National University about the race discrimination for job-seekers.
Changing only the names of the job-seekers, dramatically changed the number of callbacks for job interviews. In one industry sector the callbacks for Asian names callbacks dropped more than 90% comparing with Anglo names!
The worst of all is that for Asians (Chinese. Middle Eastern) they do not improve their chance for job interviews when they had better CVs, better qualifications or experiences.

http://people.anu.edu.au/andrew.leigh/pdf/AuditDiscrimination.pdf

31 October 2005,
A RESEARCH NOTE for the Australian Parliament writes that
“Persons who have come to Australia from either North Africa and the Middle East or from Vietnam, have rates of unemployment much higher than other overseas-born persons… Factors which contribute to the higher than average unemployment rates for migrants from the above regions include their low level of English language proficiency as well as the high proportion that come to Australia under the humanitarian and (to a lesser extent) family reunion categories”
Unfortunately it does not write anything for migrant’s difficulties to find work of cause their race or their working conditions
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/Pubs/RN/2005-06/06rn15.pdf

According to a study from the University of Western Sydney about Australian Arabs' and Muslims' experiences of post-September 11 racism, “for many citizens of Arab and Muslim background racism, abuse and violence form part of an everyday landscape of fear and incivility… women especially reported an increasing unwillingness to go out into public spaces, while many respondents generally exhibited a sense of disenfranchisement from civic life… religious intolerance needs to be deemed as unacceptable as institutional discrimination or racial abuse.”
Some 71% of respondents who had experienced racism, abuse or violence identified the perpetrators as 'Australian','Aussies', 'Anglo', 'Anglo-Saxon', 'Anglo-Australian', 'Originally from England', 'English Speaking Backgrounds', 'English', 'White', 'White Australian', 'Caucasian' and the like. Five cases (3.4%) were identified as Southern European; one case only (0.5%) as 'Aboriginal'; 22.3% No Response and 2.7% 'Other'.

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/racial_discrimination/isma/research/UWSReport.pdf
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Foxy

No, you haven't proved your assertion that, "They (migrants) were ...invariably doing jobs rejected by other Australians." However another poster has given a concrete example proving the contrary.

If you are determined to see Australia as a non-welcoming, racist user and abuser of migrants then so be it I guess. If you really believe that, why not get out there and tell everyone before they come.

It doesn't really matter though, for every person with a jaundiced view on either side of your divide there are hundreds who take a balanced view: that on the whole and in by far the greatest majority of cases both the welcoming country and migrants have benefited enormously. Sure there are hiccups and concessions have to be made on both sides but the end result is worth the effort.

Regarding the lame, worn-out sledging of 'Poms', yes I reckon where the person tries to rub it in it does goes beyond the joke. A few eggs appearing at random might have been mildly funny, whereas labelling thousands of eggs is going out of the company's way to confirm a stereotype of British and Irish people. It is as blunt as a hammer and verging on ridicule.

Of course political correctness deems that disparaging jokes about 'dominant' whites are always funny. All part of having their position changed, huh?

As is so evident from their comedy, the Brits and Irish have broad shoulders and can laugh at themselves, but there is a difference between wit and playful ribbing and laying it on thick with a trowel, caring nought for any offence.

However it is much more significant that you are not so quick or game to make a similar jibe about brown eggs and a different cultural group. What is sauce for the goose might not sauce for the gander, but you have ways of rationalising that, just as you seem able to portray Australia's immigration policies as one-sided and fraught with problems, without conceding any positives at all.

Balance please - the Oz experience and lifestyle can't be all bad for all migrants.

Dear Cornflower,

OMG!

I see that I've totally over-estimated you!
My apologies - I now realize that
you simply don't have the
required comprehension skills - kindly
re-read all of my posts again - SLOWLY!
Perhaps then you just may begin to understand
where I'm coming from. Today it is now
possible to explore the past by means of large
numbers of books, articles, films and so on.
You don't have to take my word for it.

Many things have changed since the 1949s and
1950s. Much has been achieved. Tolerance and
understanding have broadened out for most
people, though admittedly - not for all.

Unfortunately - I took you questions seriously
and in good faith.
I actually believed you wanted answers that any
high school child is taught
as part of their study of the social history
of this country. I gave you a huge list of
references - what I told you is historical
fact - whether you like it or not! That in no way
however, is a reflection on today's Australia -
merely a part of it's history.

Also -that does not mean - that I am anti -British -
or anti Aussie (which I'm proud to include
myself as being by the way) - and for your
information - I have Brits in my own family!
They by the way - do have a sense of humour!

Anyway, I can see that you have your own mindset -
about me - well that's something I'll simply have
to learn to live with!

Enjoy your gruntlement!

Foxy,

Steady with the nasturtiums, it is only a debate.

You still haven't answered the original question. You alleged that,"They (migrants) were ...invariably doing jobs rejected by other Australians." I asked for the proof.

My position is plain, I would just like the record to be set straight. Post WW2, Australia did as well as any well-meaning country could do to welcome and settle people fleeing Europe.

Australia itself had huge problems which I have alluded to previously. Newspapers of the time are are filled with stories of hardship. Many Australians lived in make-shift dwellings and watered their dirt floors daily with a perforated (plum)jam tin on a stick. All but the privileged had a dripping pot (topped up with pan fat if and when meat was available) that, along with a piece of bread and scalding black tea did for breakfast. Prior to the war, men were known to enlist to get employment and for the first time got three meals in a day.

It is easy for instance, to claim that some migrants did not have jobs that matched their expectations, but such jobs might not have even been available in underdeveloped Australia at that time and anyhow, who else had anything but mundane work?

You judge Australia's efforts to house, settle and give employment to migrants of the Fifties by your modern pampered lifestyle and the human rights of today. As well, while being ever-ready and quick to take pot-shots, you haven't thought it necessary to make comparison between Australia's efforts to settle people post-WW2 and that of comparable countries.

Your belt is set much too high, always resulting in bouquets for migrants and brick bats for Australia.

BTW, you side-stepped the invitation to show just how good humour can be directed at others than Anglos and Aussies.

A robust discussion is good and I enjoy your posts. You can always bank on a smile and coffee later.

Dear Cornflower,

Two things:

1) Post World War II -
immigration history is often distressing,
but it does enable us to know and understand
the enormous contribution that the immigrants
made at a time when Australia needed it most.

2) Historical material is easily and readily
available - on that period - and can be
verified. I listed some of the material
for you.

I'll now leave it up to you to do your own
research - if you're still interested in
the topic.

My family lived through that period -
and their actual experiences are primarily - what I'm judging
that period of history by - not my so called "pampered
life-style,"as you suggest.

The Western Suburbs of Sydney,
was not considered a "pampered" lifestyle.
At least not in the period in which I grew up!

And I'm sorry if my sense of humour is a bit
biased - but when you've consistently been put
down all of your life because of your "weird"
surname, and called "unpronounceable,"
instead of by your real name - it does tend to
affect you - just a little.

But hey, I'll join you for that cuppa.
Just make it a "cappa-cheeno," grazie!
And I'll even do better then a smile,
I'll give you a big hug as well!

I'm NOT at all happy with the notion of replacing the flag simply do get rid of the current one because of it's origin - such sentiment smacks of a cultural cringe that speaks of a lack of balls to accept who we are and where we came from and quite frankly makes me ashamed to be an Australian.

To replace the flag out of positive sentiment such as to have something that speaks of who we are now and looks forward to who we WANT to be - and which "New Australians" might feel more a part of than a flag that speaks of a history they haven't been a part of - I would be fine with (as long as we thus move forward whilst still holding with respect and reverence into perpetuity the memory of the old flag and it's role in bringing us to where we are today).

And as far as the specific design should we eventually decide to replace it: IMO it should stay right away from any themes of race or ethnicity - it should be something very "pop-icon" style such as a Qantas style kangaroo shape in gold on a plain green background.

I support a new Australian flag for the simple reason that it's not the only flag in the world consisting of the southern cross and commonwealth star stamped on a navy blue background with the union jack in the top-left corner- not by a long shot!

A flag that doesn't have to be checked twice to make sure it's not one of the many dozen vaguely different pacific commonwealth flags is always a good thing.

I'm only worried that the rights to design will go to some idiot- as most of our major public projects get handed to- a swishy pen stroke in the vague shape of an artsy kangaroo will NOT be tolerated!

For me, either the Aboriginal flag triangularly in the corner, or Eureka.

Thank you King Hazza for invading my head space and stealing my thoughts - there should be some kind of law.

While I am very fond of both the Indigenous flag - great colours, cool design and the Eureka flag - "under the southern cross" - both carry a great deal of political history that are displeasing to certain members of the Australian nation. Personally, I couldn't give a rat's wotsit about these "certain members" however, a complete new design would probably cause the least prolonged arguments and be representative of all - even the die-hard royalist wing-nuts.

The Candadians got it right. Simple, effective; definitively Canadian - no mistaking it for another commonwealth nation.

I would also like to point out that many Australian soldiers fought and died under the present flag, who couldn't even vote until 1967 when a national referendum finally gave equitable political rights to people who had long been responsible for this great land.

An inclusive flag is long overdue.

I stand by what I've said regarding the design of a new flag - having the "Aboriginal" flag as part of the design - along with notions of the Eureka design - are so cliched it's embarassing - quite apart from the fact that I personally am not comfortable with logos that to me - in the case of the Aboriginal flag (I wasn't aware traditional / tribal Aborigines actually had a flag) look basically like the German flag or in the case of the Eureka flag will mean exactly nothing at all to the world at large.

"A flag that doesn't have to be checked twice to make sure it's not one of the many dozen vaguely different pacific commonwealth flags is always a good thing."

- surely the Kangroo is ABSOLUTELY unmistakably Aussie - right now I'd bet more people worldwide would recognise the boxing kanga America's cup flag than our proper one. Having a patchwork quilt of german flag / eureka flag / gosh knows what other Aussie "in" reference logos we can think of thrown onto the thing will indeed give us exactly a flag that looks like "any one of the many dozen vaguely different pacific commonwealth flags".....

"The Candadians got it right. Simple, effective; definitively Canadian - no mistaking it for another commonwealth nation."

- hmmm... for whatever reason, the Canadians at some time in the past adopted red as their national or at least institutional colour - much like we use green and gold - and the maple leaf is their national symbol in much the same way the Kangaroo is ours - so I personally see our using the Kangaroo and Green/Gold as pretty much going the same way. Yes indeed the Canadians got it right and so can we...

I also need to make it clear that overall I support a simple logo style design similar to Canada's idea - the actual logo of course needs careful thought!

I've made the mistake of holding a position on the kanga design I never intended to even attempt to maintain and I used the kanga simply as a thrown up example - tho it does have merit. A Qantas style kangaroo is probably a bit cartoonish - but a more stylish yellow outline design could surely be designed. The point is that we want something that consists of as few colours as possible, is as simple as possible and is unmistakable. Having seen comments about the Southern Cross being a symbol all Australians can comfortably stand under I'm thinking of maybe a yellow Southern Cross drawn on green background...

Simplicity of design means not only clear identity but also kids can draw it easily - I remember being quizzed by a teacher when I was about 6 as to why the Nazi Swastika flag was drawn all over my books etc. (yes I shudder now but at the time I had no idea what it was or what it meant) - my honest reply: "because our flag is too difficult to draw."

Green and Gold Kangaroo I could live with- I was shuddering specifically at the thought it would be done in that awful wispy style our Olympic and Y2K logos seemed to go- the look of some odd few brushstrokes that are supposed to vaguely be alike a kangaroo shape- a clear colour like our Qantas emblem I would be fine with.
Although I personally find green and gold much less appealing than night-time blue.

Aboriginal flag in the corner, I understand to some people would be like a German flag with the Star of David plastered onto it- although I personally find it quite aesthetic.

And our soldiers fought under a red flag- not the blue one we have now- but even if it was I seriously doubt they'd care.
But our flag would have to be fairly differentiated- as again, there are dozens of nations that have the southern cross and commonwealth star in the exact same locations on their flag as ours.

I'm entirely in agreement with your last post King Hazza :-)

Obviously few here can come up with a new flag that unifies Australia in its history, culture and values.

Cheers Spinner

And Philo, such a flag arguably does not exist, as there will always be someone to find offense at something- doesn't mean we can't change our flag to something that stands out a bit more.

Yes, yes, yes, I believe the Australian flag should ACCURATELY represent why Australians are in the 21st Century, where no matter the colour of our skin we are the result of tyrannical British Rule and the Eureka Revolt, so our (new) Australian flag should rightly be the Eureka Flag in the centre of the Union Jack with only about 10% of the Union Jack visible on all four boarders.

How about the boxing kangaroo looking up at
the Southern Cross?