According to the Australian immigration department, in the first quarter of 2009-2010 only 49.1% of immigrants who came for humanitarian reasons passed the citizenship test upon their first attempt, while for immigrants who came through the family reunion program, the same rate is 77.9 %.
If you bear in mind that a large proportion of immigrants avoid the citizenship test because they do not hope to pass it because of their poor English , or because they fear negative consequences, it becomes obvious that a large proportion of immigrants are condemned to be forever deprived of their civil rights.
Why we abandon the citizenship system we had for so many years, which admittedly had turned Australia to the most harmonious and multicultural country in world?
Did they find something offensive in Australian citizens who became Australian citizens without any tests?
They have said :
1. that immigrants are not interested in learning English.
Many immigrants come, from poor countries, some of them are uneducated. Many European immigrants who came after the Second World War were uneducated as a result of occupation of their countries and closure of schools.

2. that the test will strengthen social cohesion and strengthen the nation. Is it possible that exclusion, humiliation, rejection and deprivation of rights from a large proportion of immigrants will strengthen social cohesion?

3. that many immigrants do not value Australian citizenship and that through the citizenship test they will learn to appreciate it. The statistics prove that immigrants from non-English speaking countries become Australian citizens they soonest possible they can.
4. that we should follow the example of other countries on the granting of citizenship. Why should Australia, with the best citizenship system, have to follow other less successful countries?
The denial of citizenship to a portion of immigrants is undemocratic and dangerous, especially in countries such as Australia with such a large percentage of immigrants.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Immigration has to be done slowly i say, or else you are going to end up with ethnic groups banding together, that in it self will cause trouble. Bring in the young people and leave the elder fogies where they are. Whats happening with the muslim community, is not good. I don't think these people are suited to the AU way of life at all.

None of the things you mentioned were an issue until howard the coward decided to steal the dog whistle from pauline hanson and use them to divide and scare the populace and his opponents.
Now we reap the harvest of alienated and unhappy migrants and rising racism and intolerance.

Having said that I saw the coolest thing on tv today. A black sudanese guy who spoke aussie just like us. It was strange to hear that accent from someone so dark but it shows that they do want to be just like us... if only we will let them.

The citizenship test is an offensive insult that maligns people for no other reason than they werent born here and it makes a persons first steps into Australia uncomfortable and unwelcoming.

The Citizen test is a helping hand to those who come to Australia with an agenda. The Citizen test makes it nigh impossible for people to come to Australia to start a new life.

mikk,
a Sudanese speaking like an Aussie ? What do you expect him to sound like after learning english in Australia ??

Howard did play the race card but the only reason was that it was there on the table to play already. PC started the ball rolling and has politicised race like we have done with Indigenous culture. People who are represented by political activists do not have the best PR firms on earth. We barely tolerate politicians as it is.

PC correctness failed in Australia because it was borrowed from other nations with totally different historical contexts. Trendy and idiotic.

I would accept easier citizenship provided any group that had a high level of integration issues resulted in zero migration intake from their country for 10 years to stop the feed chain into dysfunctional enclaves.

I can appreciate the efforts of refugee advocates and migration lawyers trying to give greater access to this nation but they seem to dump them in the streets once visa established. Immigration is so hard, never as good as one thinks..very much grass is always greener so starry eyed soon become disillusioned. Poor immigration policy is bad for everyone concerned. Some people are better off not migrating and should be told. One with a dream to be a rich doctor in the wealthy suburbs find themselves a taxi driver in poorer suburbs deserves to know that reality before they make life changing commitment.

It is arrogant that many feel these people will be happier with such a bad outcome than from where they came. It is dishonest.

So harsher migration policy but then easier citizenship would be ideal imo.

Will never happen, forced by one political side to take in people not suitable and destined for their children be disadvantaged has to be tempered with difficult citizenship rules from the other side. Uisng epopel this way is disgusting but both sides have been equally disgusting.

Hi Antonios.

I disagree. I think that a citizenship test is a sound idea - not only that, I think that everybody should be required to pass one, whether they're born in Australia or not.

It should be the qualification for being granted the privilege to vote in Australian elections.

Mind you, I'm aware that my opinion on this is not a very popular one :)

Submissions on the discussion paper 'Australian citizenship: much more than just a ceremony'and “to the Australian Citizenship Test Review Committee” of :

1a The Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission,
Should Australia introduce a formal citizenship test?
Safeguards should a formal citizenship test be introduced
Discrimination under international law
Does the proposed Citizenship Test have a legitimate aim?
Consideration of the negative impact of the proposed changes
Whether other approaches would alleviate these risks whilst achieving the same goals
“the Commission considers that any potential benefits are likely to be outweighed by the negative impact the changes will have on social cohesion within our community.”

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/racial_discrimination/report/citizenship_paper_2006.html

1b. The discriminatory impact of the test
Achieving the purpose of the test
Improving the operation and effectiveness of the test
There should be provision for alternative procedures and exemptions from the eligibility criteria in appropriate cases.
Support services should be extended to improve the capacity of applicants from NESB and refugees to pass the test, including human rights and education programs.
Safeguards for applicants who fail the test
http://www.hreoc.gov.au/legal/submissions/2008/20080605_citizenship_test.html

2. FECCA
Submission to the Department of Immigration and Citizenship on the Review of the Citizenship Test
1. FECCA remains strongly opposed to the concept of a formal citizenship
test as it creates an unnecessary barrier to full participation and social
inclusion;
http://www.fecca.org.au/Submissions/2008/submissions_2008019.pdf

3. Submission to the review of The Australian Citizenship Test. Of Refugee Council of Australia
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/docs/resources/submissions/2008_citizenship_test_review.pdf

4. The submission of Catholic Church
http://www.acmro.catholic.org.au/documents/ResponsetoDiscussionPaperCitizenship.pdf

5. of the Uniting Church in Australia
“In March 2008, the Uniting Church National Assembly adopted a position to oppose the continued use of the Citizenship Test. The Uniting Church’s opposition to the test is based on the following grounds:”
http://www.alphasys.com.au/uca2/trunk/images/pdfs/issues/democracy/submissions/unitingchurchcitizenshiptestreviewsubmission.pdf

Please Read the :
Australian Citizenship Test Outcomes –
First Quarter 2009–10
http://www.citizenship.gov.au/_pdf/sep-2009.pdf

The article “A test that will divide, not unite” of Professor Brian Costar and senior research fellow Peter Mares
http://www.apo.org.au/commentary/test-will-divide-not-unite

The article of MP Petro Georgiou on Australian citizenship test
http://www.philosophyblog.com.au/petro-georgiou-on-the-australian-citizenship-test/

Former Liberal prime minister Malcolm Fraser said the citizenship test is unwise, foolish and will create division. I agree!
Antonis Symeonakis
Adelaide

CJ Morgan
I do not write what is popular but what I think is useful.
I know that it is not very popular and already I paid for it!
I was coordinator for migration and multiculturalism of Democrats
"Hi Antonis,

At its meeting on 17th November, the National Policy Committee considered your application to coordinate the Immigration & Multiculturalism Policy Group, and I am happy to advise that you were appointed to that position. Congratulations and welcome.

We are currently finalising the Policy Coordinator guidelines for your use. Kathryn Crosby has been assigned the operational responsibilities of managing the policy Groups in the short term and will be in contact with you and she can help with any questions you have. I have copied her in this message, along with the Nat Secretary, Brian Dickson, so you have their contact details.

Thank you for contributing to Australian politics (in the best way I know - by being an Australian Democrat) and for giving your time and skills to our best practice policy work. I look forward to working with you.

Cheers,

Julia Melland
National President
Australian Democrats"

Last week I stepped down when I wrote "The abolition of the citizenship test is a national necessity, as Coordinator for Migration and Multiculturalism of Australian Democrats, I strongly advocate as my top priority the abolition of the citizenship. Antonios Symeonakis "
You see I do not afraid to go against the winds but I have paid for it many times
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

My memory is good AS I had no intention of contributing to this thread.
A very brief look at your post history under that first name, your own, will show views on migration that few, me included could agree with.
I have contempt, nothing less for the way some applied this test.
In a rural city's post office the post mistress, of Chinese extraction, had three young Lady's in shreds.
I welcomed them to Australia, told them the woman who tortured them had not had to face that test and she got into me too.
She bought the crowd against her and lost that debate.
yet I stand by a test, a way of seeing if people understand what we are about.
It is my choice and right to be me, AS I have made up my mind, I will not contribute to threads you start.
As I said this had not been my intention, to post here, but as a crowd is gathering I needed to go on record.

As far as I knew, a minimum level of English literacy is a minimum requirement for permanent residence (a precursor for citizenship for all except refugees) and has been in place for decades.

I stand to be corrected, but it certainly has been a requirement for naturalisation of skilled labour for many years.

The citizenship test is the biggest waste of money and time and serves no purpose other than to give a false impression that the government is being strict on who it lets in. The security, health and other screening processes are in place to determine those risks - what on earth does the CT achieve?

So what if a refugee doesn't know who won the Test Cricket or who Captain Cook was. How do these ridiculous questions help determine an applicant's behaviour or thoughts about being an Australian; or how would they ferret out the would-be terrorists or other spurious agenda on the part of the applicant?

I was horrified when Rudd chose to keep the Citizenship Test. Half the Aussies I know probably wouldn't pass it. I would probably fail on most of the sports questions and I was born here.

Humphrey Appleby is in his element and all is right with the world.

CJ,
You are spot on. You can represent me on this thread.

@CJ
"I think that a citizenship test is a sound idea - not only that, I think that everybody should be required to pass one, whether they're born in Australia or not"
@Philo "CJ,
You are spot on. You can represent me on this thread"

If we use the citizenship test for all Australians, as you suggested, then a huge number of Australians will lose their civil rights.
Most migrants from non-English speaking countries will lose their civil rights, as their English is not very good.
But if we start the deprivation of civil rights then we risk turning our democratic system ... to oligarchy or bringing back the …white Australia.
Our goal should be the extension of our democracy, the deepening of our democracy and not the exclusion and division of Australians.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Maybe *all* prospective citizens (local 17year olds included) should pass a test. (how would you do?)

But what will it test? It will easily fall prey to jingoism and mrs grundy.

I suggest that it should cover topics that some very large majority (say 70 or 80%) think are important, without neccesarily requiring pat answers. Nothing compulsory, nothing *important* excluded.

Make it a model for *any* citizen, anywhere.

People who aren't good at maths would like to be, so put some in, functional and advanced.
People who aren't historians still appreciate that the sweep of history has something to tell us. Put some in, not just local stuff.
Languages, sciences, musical ability, job skills, trades, crafts, hobbies, child-raising, history, bush survival, exceptional senses.

Rightway highlights a flaw. Someone speaking 3 languages and poor at english might fail. Why? How many languages do most Aussies know?

I know people (whose kids include my best mate) who don't speak english. They have two languages fluent and two others "sort of". Their english is good enough for me but not most. Why exclude them? They're fine, their kids are fine. My missus' grandparents might not have bothered (but did) with english, would we exclude an industrial chemist and an engineer? just for a preference for Russian? They don't *want* to talk to you, just see their kids do OK, *same* as you, and their kids *do* fit in.

The danger is that a test is easily subverted into something that lets candidates "pretend" to be a local and pass, yet exclude genuinely valuable people because they won't "fit in". If "they" have the personal dignity, "they" are more "australian" than conformists.

Who cares if "they" know the national "anthem"? An idea of common law is better for our nation. Who cares if "they" can recite lists of prime ministers? Do you know even one? in any nation? and their failings?

Forget "allegience to the flag", rip one up for bandages for those who need them. Allegience to one's neighbors and the common-wealth gets the tick.

No test, or test all of us.

Rusty

For a community to be cohesive it must communicate fluently no matter which community. People entering Australia with the intention of becoming Australiam must respect its laws, institutions, culture and icons. Otherwise we cannot call them Australians, they have an allegiance to another culture or set of values.

Rusty Catheter, is certainly not an Australian with allegiance to our culture or values. It is not the cloth that unites Australia but the values it represents. Rusty should polish up his halo as he lets the Nation fall into chaos.

We can relate to people of other nations in a friendly and civil manner that does not make us citizens of other nations nor is it the criterion of participation in their government. Getting on well with neighbours does not mean we form the rules in their household, not rip down a tapestry of their great grandmother.

Rusty: << No test, or test all of us. >>

That was the point I was trying to make, certainly when it comes to being allowed to vote in elections. However, given that citizenship is something conferred on most of us by accident of birth, I don't see how a citizenship test that is only compulsory for immigrants can be anything but discriminatory.

Nice to see Philo resuming responsibility for representing himself :)

Sorry CJ I couldn't resist, thought you might be on holiday. Have a great Australia Day!

Ha!

Cheers mate - I'll be sure to have a holy stubby and some fundy damper for you :)

Have a great one yourself.

@CJ Morgan
Sorry my mistake, I misunderstood you, your post was not very clear.
It is very difficult for refugees to pass the citizenship test, to become Australian citizens, most of them can not speak English, especially women, as they did not have the opportunity for education in their countries, Taliban did not allow women’ education at all.
These people have bad experiences from their countries and detention centers, they are under high stress, they need to belong in our country, they need to feel safe and secure, they need to be sure that they will not be deported in the future, that they will not have to repeat again the same hard experiences.
These people need our understanding and support but we ignore their conditions, their needs, we ask them to pass the citizenship test.
Hundreds of thousands of migrants became Australian citizens without any test, why now we put refugees in so difficult position?
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

why now we put refugees in so difficult position?
Symeonakis,
It goes without saying that many refugees are in desperate situations & need help. I don't believe for one moment that anyone would object to to that. Unfortunately, many people who present themselves as refugees may be genuine but once settled in another country the main objective appears to be establishing their particular enclaves rather than at least trying to assimilate. Others, come with less complimentary intentions towards the country which adopts them. That is the great dilemma when selecting as to whom to afford residency. One question I always ask myself is, why is it that so many who by religion or otherwise object to western society & yet it is nearly always a western country that they choose to apply for asylum to.

This is the second time I have to agree with CJM.

The citizenship test should apply to all and be part of the right to vote. That way we may get more Australiana and our history taught at schools, the lack of which is the reason many born here would now fail the test. Frankly, I would fail a lot of kids at present on English, both oral and written. Boys appear to be worse than girls.

Some posters may not be aware that, on application for citizenship, the applicant is given a booklet which contains all the answers and information that the test is made up from. It is not as though they have to research their own material in relation to the possible questions.

Good idea CJM, same as the theory for drivers licence.

@Banjo
you wrote "The citizenship test should apply to all and be part of the right to vote...Good idea CJM, same as the theory for drivers licence."
You mean the people who do not pass the test to lose their citizenship?
With your way a big part of Australians, mainly migrants from non English speaking background will lose their citizenship!
Is not the top democratic principle that all citizens are equal?
Do not you think that doubting citizens abilities to perform their duties, testing and excluding them we violate our democratic principles, that we abolish our democracy?
Do not you see the risk that if we start to withdraw the citizenship from Australians for any reason, with or without tests, then we open the way in the future an other government to extent or use it with an other way, withdrawing the citizenship from whole groups, on the base of their religious or national background or on the base of their professional, social or economic status?
Come an Banjo in a citizenship test the first who will lose his citizenship will be you!

@individual
Most of refugees stay close to their countries, for example ONLY a small part of Iraqi refugees have gone to western countries or in Australia, most of Iraqi refugees are in Syria, Jordan and other neighbor countries.
Do not you know why refugees prefer Australia or other western countries? If you was in their position will not you go to a western country?
individual democratic values and human rights are the base of our (western) civilization, let's support and extend them.
Australia is migrant's nation, there are Australians from all corners of the earth, refugees have friends or relatives in Australia, when we respect and support them we not only act according to our international obligation but also we improve the relations between Australians, we build bridges between Australians. Do not underestimate that the synthesis of Australian population have changed extremely fast, do not forget that last year 64% from the increase of Australian population was from migrants, mainly from Asian countries.

Antonis Symeonakis
Adelaide

Rightway,
What i am saying is that all those applying for citizenship, and those citizens, upon reaching voting age, should have to pass the test before gaining citizenship or being able to vote.

This would ensure that they knew the basics of our electoral system and society.

It was not a problem for born here citizens in the past because Australiana and our history was taught in schools. With the advent of the ideology of multiculturalism, our educators deemed that the teaching of other cultures was far more important, so our own history, etc. has not been taught adequately.

It is now a couple of years since i read the booklet handed out to prospective citizens and there was nothing in it that I did not know. In fact it was very basic. An immigrant has to be here for 4 years before being eligible for citizenship anyway, so basic english should not be a problem.

I expect all citizens to be able to communicate in our official language, at least on a basic level.

Antonis - I agree.

TheMissus - your comment is very insightful and again I agree.

For my part as I've said, I agree with abolishing the citizenship test - BUT there should instead be a compulsory Citizenship Education program which in the primary instance aims to teach migrants IN THEIR NATIVE TONGUE the things which can be considered "essentials" - ie. some background on Australia's history, the geography of the place (this includes how our industry and population is all situated etc. - not just where Uluru is), how our government works, how our legal system works (INCLUDING A BROAD UNDERSTANDING OF OUR LAWS) and how general societal values here work. A citizenship test should not be required, but certificates indicating satisfactory completion of the Citizenship Education Program should be a prerequisite.

The program could be offered for study externally - so migrants could indeed land already "qualified" for being here and the process might well hopefully even provide some insight into what it is to live in Australia before migrants even leave their home soil - some might well decide it's not their cup of tea when they realise that simply holding a paid-for degree from their own national university won't mean they'll be an executive running some sweat shop textile mill within a few months of arrival (I have FIRST HAND experience of someone who had exactly that sort of notion).

Spinner
When and how refugees will take the"certificate"?
What will happen with migrants of family reunion programs? will we block a wife to come to Australia because she does not have the "certificate"?
Can we tell an Australian husband " no wife for you because she does not know Australian history?"
Are we sure that Australian citizens can pass a test for the "certificate"? If not then why we block a wife or a child to rejoin with her husband or his father when many Australians can not pass the test for the "certificate"?
Are we sure that if a migrant pass the citizenship test or take the "certificate" he/she will respect, protect and promote our values? There is a huge difference between I know something and I respect and follow it in my every day life, that it have became part of my life.
The democracy starts from very early, from our home, and its principles became part of our character, part of our life.
Can we teach the remnants of white Australia to respect non Anglo Australians when they learned and accepted that we are second class citizens, second class employees?
We want the refugees to pass the citizenship tests but we do not care if the mass media, which create and control the public opinion and Australian values, have controlled from a small number of tycoons , that they are used as propaganda machines according to tycoons benefits and goals, that our democracy is captured from them.
For me the citizenship certificate brings migrants and especially refugees closer to the mainstream, they feel secure and bond easier with the rest of Australians, their children grow up in a better, happier environment and they will become better Australians.
The citizenship certificate is a welcome to migrants, that they are not alone, a guarantee that we really care for them, that they are part of our self, part of the GREAT AUSTRALIA
Antonis Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonis, you've misunderstood me!

- I'm describing completion of the Citizenship Education Program simply as a requirement for naturalisation - NOT AS A REQUIREMENT FOR IMMIGRANT ENTRY!!

This discussion is about getting rid of the Citizenship Test as part of the requirement for citizenship - I'm saying yes, get rid of the test but have an education program instead. The sort of information I'm proposing is factual - not the kind of information that can be slanted politically - how can you politically slant showing a map and describing where the main geographical features and cities are and what the industries are that each city supports etc.?

And when I talk of completion certificate I'm saying that there shouldn't be a requirement to have "passed" the program - simply that the person has attended the whole program. It's arguable whether there should be a requirement to have "satisfactorily" completed the program - ie. have some level of assessment even if it's just the opinion of the instructor as to whether the subject has understood the information - but I don't think that's necessary if the program itself is designed properly and is presented in the native language of the subject.