For all you morally secure, I would like you to give me your opinions on this.

A single mum unable to speak the language has two children One nine and the other four.

She gets pregnant and adopts the child out.

She gets pregnant again she has a back yard abortion which goes wrong.
She finishes up in hospital for a hysterectomy .
Should she have known better getting pregnant the second time should she have gone through with the second pregnancy? that means another one on the Social security.
She is also a devout Lutheran.
What is your opinion.

examiner, hmmm your post is hard to examine.

"A single mum unable to speak the language has two children One nine and the other four" which language, and why.

I was in exactly the same position, I was a single father with two children, one 9, the other 14 after my wife passed away.

What about the fathers, men contribute to children, if you don't know how there are plenty of places on the net where you can get a very graphic explaination.

"She gets pregnant and adopts the child out."

see above, no mention of the father and good choice, I am adopted, I have since met my birth mother and some of her family and I am so grateful she made the decision she did.

"She is also a devout Lutheran." so ..... oops don't Christians make mistakes, did Jesus die for nothing?

"She gets pregnant again she has a back yard abortion which goes wrong." ... I hope that the law was contacted, abortions, rightly or wrongly are easily available.
"She finishes up in hospital for a hysterectomy ." .. not an unusual outcome which is why we legalised abortion.

"Should she have known better getting pregnant the second time" .. better than what, we know nothing about pregnancies number 1 or 2, her status, relationship with the father, etc.

"should she have gone through with the second pregnancy?" .. see previous answer.

"that means another one on the Social security." .. and it makes me proud to live in a country where, if we muck up (letter substitution is allowed here), there is a safety net, or if she is used, abused and mucked around (letter substitution is allowed here too) with by some guy (which is usually the case) then she can be rescued.

Does this give you an idea of my view after examining a fairly broad series of statements.

examinator,

Do you have any information on this woman's sexual partners. who (one presumes) assisted in bringing about her pregnancies?

Should we not question the moral turpitude of her partners and/or their lack of contraception, as well?

Dear Examinator,

I can't make a moral judgement on this woman
until all the facts are known about this case.

We need more information or reference to a website.

I would say this woman is no better or no worse than anyone else on OLO. She made bad choices which were made easier by the secular society we live in. She might be a devoted Lutheran but it appears she is not a devout Christian otherwise she would not get into such a mess. Thinking secularly leads you into this sort of situation. If she was thinking biblically she would only consider sex in the safe bounds of marriage.

Those who have responded have seen through the trap I was attempting to set for some of our button down 'christian' (?) moralistic posters.

The woman was my mum, she was a Latvian refugee, freed from a German Labour camp 1945 which was turned into a refugee camp overnight.

He hubby had been 'disappeared' by the Germans 1943.

She had lost one child en rout to the camp. 1944

Once here, she may have offered favours for advantages for her children.
I was one consequence.(father unknown)
Apparently, not uncommon here in 1949/50s.. Many of the males were good anglo-saxon Aussie married men.

The latter pregnancy killed her.

I never met any of my blood relatives.
The daughter was adopted, but due to religious factionalism, they being Lutheran, the son was left in a "unofficial orphanage" untill he left at 16.
He changed his name several times, was a drifter, fathered children here and there, but ran, finally turned to drink...today unknown.

My point ....it all depends, nothing is black or white.
I blame neither my mother for doing what she felt was necessary, nor my half brother for his behaviour, his pain and identity crisis would have been intolerable.

My secondary purpose, in the light of several topic and posts on OLO, was to show that we don't have to go back to early settlement or the indigenous stolen generation, to see our Anglo-Saxon Christian flaws.

Howard's retro attitude towards old time values was IMO myopic and insulting to many, many people who have migrated here.

This view is not a "black arm band" view of History, a more realistic one, emphasising we can't go back, forward is the only sensible option..

In essence Isay that *believing* "Aussie culture... Ossy ossy oi oi oi" is part of the problem today. Rather than a mature ability to see ourselves as we are, confident enough to be able to rise above blind belligerent rhetoric and strive to be better...for humanity's sake.

Dear Examinator,

Thank You for sharing some of your family history
with us on OLO.

How on earth can any one judge others without
knowing the circumstances and context in
which events took place? As you pointed out -
things are never simply black or white.
Yet condemnation is so easy.

What happened to your mother is tragic - and is
part and parcel of the bleak history of World
War II.

Have you ever tried to find out what happened to
your half brother - or if he's still alive today?
You don't have to reply if it's too painful or
personal.

I'll understand.

Take care.

Wow your hatred of Howard is certainly a long bow.

The information provided does-not tell us enough to judge her negatively. Therefore, the tolerant position is to choose to give her the benefit of the doubt.

foxy,
No it isn't painful at all, having had no contact, there is no bond as such.

*I tend to be able to step outside feeling at times and just look at topics as that*. That is, beyond the innate concern for a human. Therefore no biggy.

As stated, I was trying to point out to Col, runner, hasbeen et al that their often black or white moral pronouncements were/are fraught with credibility/sensitivity/equity problems.

As for is he still alive....I have tried, but some years ago he apparently wanted to disappear and as such he has been successful as is his right. Evidence gleaned, was that he was in the 80's a homeless derelict who had suffered the ravages of alcoholism. However, this hasn't been confirmed If the information is correct, he'd be in his 70's (give the extreme alcoholism reported, unlikely).

The story was on 'Can we help' a few years back. I was pretty much edited out because I refused to answer questions like how do you feel but chose my customary "more thought required type response....not "good" teary..."oh my god", ratings grabbing response. So much for my TV career :-)

This came to mind as I pondered a new half niece(from 1/2 brother)that has just appeared (two days ago).

It also occurred to me that the half niece( 1/2 sister deceased) didn't know I existed, she'd been told that there was one pregnancy (the abortion) caused G/mothers death.

I reasoned that the brother might be resentful of me depriving him of a mother/family.

I thought the topic was a good practical object lesson, one that added extra meaning to the lives of the departed. i.e. albeit somewhat a long bow.
Beyond that it is one more interesting influence (story) in the life of examinator ant

Runner,

As usual my ecstatically myopic, you missed the point.
Angry at Howard? nah sad that he like you seem never understand anything beyond your own limited life experiences.

That ok for you but Howard's predilection for rigidity in his dogma IMO rendered him an also ran PM rather than someone who deserves more than a by line in history. He came, he did nothing lasting and went.
Not a leader but a second rate manager.

Dear Examinator,

Thanks for explaining.

I guess some things in life are beyond our
control at times, and one has no choice but to move
on.

On the plus side - you've got a wife, family,
and other relatives that are there for you.

Plus of course - you're a highly regarded,
respected, poster on OLO - who regularly
enriches our cyber space.

Big hug.

Well if cannot talk the tongue language you speak the other languages, everyone needs communication and the company of other people. Just life.

Examinator,

Interesting topic, and one with which I can identify.
I found out I was adopted when I was fifteen. I had no idea where I had originated from until a phone call from my half-sister when I was forty-two. Unfortunately, my biological mother had died the year before.
It turns out she had met an American man over here working for a music company - I was the result - lucky me.
I have his name, but can find no trace - he may or may not be American Indian - the details are sketchy.
My mother married an Estonian man a few years after I was born.
My half-sister, who is as blond as I am dark, has given me a lot of info about my maternal side, which seems to be mostly Scottish stock. I've managed to do quite a bit of genealogical scratching about - and for a history buff like myself, its nice to be aware of part of my family's history.
I had a half-brother too - he was born after my half-sister but he died soon after birth. I remember feeling so sad when I found that out - for my mother had lost two of her children - me and my brother.
I have a photo of a particularly handsome couple, young and vibrant in their swimming costumes at the beach, taken sometime around 1930 - my biological grandmother and grandfather - great, eh!
Like TheMissus says - Just life.

What happened to Examinators mother reminds me of a country music song sung by a female singer called; "Unwed Fathers". You are very unlikely to hear it as the male DJs and the male powerbrokers in the music industry made sure it received no publicity or promotion.

Examinator states<he was a drifter, fathered children here and there but ran.>

He could run couldn't he? because he didn't have one of his children to lug along with him as your mother did. He didn't have to decide whether to have an abortion or not. I understand that growing up in an orphanage probably caused him to be emotionally crippled(given the horrors that we now know happened in these places)but the women were still left holding the bundle so to speak.

Howards retro attitude towards old time values was more to do with his hatred of what he perceived as the rich end of town having to pay taxes for the poor or disadvantaged like abandoned mothers and children. It was more to do with the distribution of wealth than any religious conviction.

Unwed fathers who have moved on with a new partner and have fathered other children, also like to heap scorn and blame on the woman and children they have left behind, because they can't afford to support their first children, as well as the new ones they have irresponsibly (in a financial sense), fathered. They find it hard financially so heap hatred on the abandoned mother. Their new wife also resents the previous mother because she doesn't want her husband or partners money and resources being directed to any other children but her own.

There is a real culture of jealousy and hatred in Australian culture directed at single mothers that comes more from the unwed fathers and their jealous new partners. It all boils down to money not religion.

Examinator I am sorry for what your mother and half brother suffered at the hands of the Germans and society in general. It is horrific.

Well said Sharkfin. I would never seek to try to judge anyone, male or female, unless I had all the facts.

Many children of dysfunctional or fractured families never do get the whole story from their parents and therefore often wrongly judge them.

At the end of the day most parents do the best they can with what they have to work with- which can often be not much.

For years I thought my father was a womanizer and a cheat, as that was what my mother told us.
Now I have the whole story from my father and his family, I now realise they both contributed to the demise of their marriage.
I wish I had been told the truth a lot earlier.

G'day Sharkfin - is this the song?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlEGb-8Hjrk&feature=related

There are a couple of bloke singers but couldn't understand the lyrics, so that's Tammy Wynette.
"Tammy Wynette's cover of the John Prine song "Unwed Fathers".

Runner, <"She made bad choices which were made easier by the secular society we live in. She might be a devoted Lutheran but it appears she is not a devout Christian otherwise she would not get into such a mess.">

What about the fathers? - any words about the bad choices they make, or are they absolved from condemnation because they get to avoid the mess?

Examinator: thank you for reminding us of how people struggle against injustice and cruel judgments; and ty for telling it from a personal perspective. Very compelling.

From these examples of hurt, injustice and bad choices we can all learn, there is a better way to avoid hurt, injustice and bad choices; as it is that way we are able to conclude what is ill, good and better.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Having never met these people its all a bit emotionally distant. I do feel for their apparent horrendous suffering.

My brother was clearly left an emotionally basket case.
It's interesting to note how actions some 60 years ago are still reverberating .
His son is embittered he feels his dad abandoned him and as such doesn't want to acknowledge a paternal 'family'.

He didn't even know that he was named after his grandfather.

On behalf of mum, runner's pejorative comments of 'bad choices' betrays the lack of understanding/ compassion and the selfishness of his 'Christianity'.

Clearly, she did what was necessary to look after her children...or perhaps should have let her children die or suffer?

My sister had an operation to correct 'rickets' ( nourishment issues) in Germany...was this or the survival of her children...possibly. I can only admire her material determinism. i.e. I wonder if given the same circumstances would runner (any man) have done the same for their children?

From what I was told there were sexual predators in the Aussie camp with propositions/threats.....bad decision ? I'm not that convinced? given the past and that she was a 4th grade educated peasant woman what real choices did she have?

The abortion.... given she lived/worked a long way over 300 ks from where the abortion took place and later died lack of language and location. All her friends were in the same boat. How did she arrange/get to, pay for the abortion and morality at the time (all rigidly Christian? ) and was she forced into it by the father (maybe mine too)? Odds on I'd say.

I think it is fair to suggest that given the circumstances declaring her guilty of 'bad choices' is morally unsustainable and un - Christian.
You pick the bible text. "judge not lest Ye be judged" comes to mind.
My overall point was to show that such moral judgments say more about the accuser' short comings than the accused.

Examinator your write

'You pick the bible text. "judge not lest Ye be judged" comes to mind. '

and yet a couple of key strokes before that you write

'On behalf of mum, runner's pejorative comments of 'bad choices' betrays the lack of understanding/ compassion and the selfishness of his 'Christianity'.

it seems very much to me you started the post so that you could judge.