StG

Most of the people I've met who believe passionately in the stolen generation have had little to no contact with Aboriginal people. So far as I can see most non-Aboriginal Australians have little to no contact with Aboriginal people.

I do not understand the relevance of your question.

Foxy,

Whenever I raise this issue someone mentions the Holocaust. Let's get a few things straight:

--The murder of millions of Jews, Gypsies and others in Nazi death camps is well-documented.

--The forced removal of many Aboriginal children is also well-documented.

The difference between Irving and Windschuttle is simply this:

--Irving outright denies that Jews were killed in their millions in the death camps.

--Windschuttle does not deny that many Aboriginal children were forcible removed. In this case he is NOT a denialist in the Irving mode. The analogy is entirely false.

Windschuttle does question the REASON for the removals. At heart he asserts that in most cases the removals were justified by the conditions in which the removed child lived. He implies that White children living in similar circumstances would also have been removed.

If this is true the removed children were not stolen – they were removed for their own safety.

Windschuttle appears to me to make a persuasive case – one that so far as I can see has never been effectively rebutted. Perhaps you can point me rebuttals of this SPECIFIC point.

What I find most persuasive is the absence of effective litigation. If children had been stolen I would expect to find hundreds of lawyers willing to take up the cases just as there is no shortage of lawyers to plead for asylum seekers.

Can you explain the absence of litigation Foxy?

Why are lawyers willing to argue the cases of asylum seekers but almost none willing to argue for damages to stolen children?

I have been unable to find any reference on Amazon to the Tatz book you recommended. The closest I've come is this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Intent-Destroy-Reflections-Genocide/dp/1859845509/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260509165&sr=1-1

Is that what you had in mind?

stephen quote,,<<What I find most persuasive is the absence of effective litigation.>>thats so funny...as i heard spoken...by a judge in the high court...re keven buzzacot/coat of arms case

''why are you comming to me if by your..i forget the egsact terms...if by your reconing we have no legitimate right...to be running things..''

<<If children had been stolen>>.if jews did get killed in the labour camps...[noting recently obama.visited one of them[beuchanwald from memory]...anyhow only on sbs was the speach of a surviver recorded...revealing of the 35,000...who died there...ONE THIRD WERE JEWS...

one third...what of that TWO THIRDS...that..dont rate a mention on any other news organisation...to feed the myth/legend/excuse for zionist occupation...by the not homeless northern zionist blochovic jews...that look nmore northern than semite

your scating on thin ice either way..you are free to hold your opinion...as i am to hold mine...the truth lies in the middle..NO ONE is all good...nor all bad...when we judge...we reveal we have bias/hate/fear/contempt/loathing...of others

all land belongs to god
who sustains each life ...all land is gods holy land...all people are gods people...that we do/did to the least..we did/do to god

god is the love living life giver
we serve life...or we serve death
[by their works do we know which one we serve]

look at the fryit of the first people...drunks oin park/./living like culturless..lost oputcasts in their own lands...SOMETHING HELPED THIS OCCURE...some how their culture was stolen...thus they are the stolen generation

IM stolen gen...my parents were trickled to these lands..but effectivly i got only my immediate family..so i too[and many of you are stolen/generation...IE divided from your cultural roots...go try to prove it in court

<<I would expect to find hundreds..of lawyers willing to take up the cases>>>yes funny boy ..you imaginer all you like

but there shall not be any...except those willing to take a dive..if they begin like looking like winning...this invasion state cant have that...just like those needing to people any holy land...first need to dislodge them from their own land.culture

<<Can you explain the absence of litigation Foxy?>>can you reveal these thousands of constitutional/litargy..indigenous lawyers?

Dear Steven,

I'm all for getting things straight.

When you've done a broader amount of
research we can then discuss David Irving,
and Keith Windshuttle. Until then may I
humbly suggest you don't speak on something
you seem to know very little about.

I have cited enough references for you
to point you in the right direction.
I'm sure that you're able to use a computer
and can google and find the given references.

As for your question on the Stolen Generations
and Litigation - may I humbly refer you to this
website (there are however - many more to be found on the web
for those really wanting to know the truth of the matter):

http:www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/MULR/2008/13.html
The Stolen Generations & Litigation Revisited...

Oneonaboutgod, this thread is not about God is it?
Foxy, I admire your stand and good sense.
I think this is a dicey thread that could descend into a racist discussion.

However, I have worked with many Aboriginal people over the years, including working on missions in the Northern Territory, Darwin and Derby, as well as the town camps in some capital cities.

I have noticed the sadness that comes from some of these people that were not brought up in their normal family environment.

Many stated that they felt like their culture was taken from them as children. They were some really sad people.

On the other hand, I also noted that many Aboriginal people who were brought up in missions or in children's homes or in white families (or their descendents) were leaders in their communities.

They were more likely to have had a good education and healthier life and to have employment than their other relatives. They were now doing plenty of good for their people that maybe they could never have done if they were brought up in their original family.

Whether this outcome is good or bad for Aboriginal people is up to them now.

Foxy,

Thank you for drawing my attention to the case of Trevorrow v South Australia Here is a better link:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/MULR/2008/13.html#Heading13

Based on the evidence presented it appears clear that Bruce Trevorrow was "stolen" in the sense this word is used in the phrase "stolen generation". Judge Gray found for the plaintiff and awarded $450,000 in damages and a further $75,000 in punitive damages. I would have considered double that amount inadequate.

I should add that it has never been my position that no Aborigine was ever "stolen" – merely that it MAY (repeat MAY) be stretching the facts to talk of a stolen GENERATION. I should have made that clear.

With that out of the way let's deal with some facts.

--Trevorrow was, to be blunt, an unsympathetic plaintiff. It is obviously unfair that a plaintiff with Trevorrow's unsavoury background should find it harder to get justice; but it is a fact that any experienced lawyer will confirm.

--Yet despite his background Trevorrow did win. And he won big. Damages of $525,000 are sizeable by Australian standards.

--Judge Gray accepted ORAL testimony. This represents an important breakthrough in these cases.

--The case is now two years old

Yet, despite the precedent set by the Trevorrow case, despite the large award, despite the plaintiff's criminal background, despite the acceptance of oral evidence, there has NOT, so far as I am aware, been a slew of cases. I would have expected that, at the very least, lawyers with more sympathetic clients would have given it a try after Judge Gray broke the ice.

This not happened.

Why?

I do not think the Antonio Buti, the author of the paper you linked, really addresses this question.

Foxy,

I am what you might call sceptically agnostic when it comes to the question of a "stolen GENERATION". So far the evidence for a stolen GENERATION – as opposed to a number of stolen children – appears to me to be scant.

NB: I am NOT denying that Aborigines have suffered great injustices since the Europeans took over here.

Keith Windshuttle is the Australian equivalent
of the David Irving denialists. He is a little
known academic who tried to make his reputation
by setting out to demolish the emminent
historian's - Prof. Henry Reynolds reputation.
Foxy,
I'm uncertain re Windshuttle but from what I have seen on TV & read about Reynolds I'm more inclined to view the latter as no different than the former. After all, both are academic historians & academics in general do not have a realistic view of reality & more often than not invent history rather than quote. I think you're overly generous with eminent.