Bazz: "they were on about matching the tree ring data to the thermometer data since 1960 and hiding a fall in the tree data."

I'll repeat a point Q&A has made. They did not "hide a fall in the tree data", unless you have a weird definition of "hide".

The emails were discussing what was going into a peer reviewed paper. That paper is here: http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/shared/articles/mbh98.pdf (If you read it, you will get an insight into just how wrong your throwaway comment about "how hard can it be to plot temperature" is.)

The paper attempts to reconstruct the temperature record over the last 600 years. The bulk of it describes their technique for calibrating older historical temperature proxies (ie when we didn't have thermometers) against the modern instrumental record. They spell out the exactly which data they used in a supplement, which you can find here: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v392/n6678/suppinfo/392779a0.html

Their "modern" instrumental record covered 1902-1980. The start of the record has gaps, so they used proxies like tree rings. But the tree record does bizarre things after 1960, showing the temperature going down where all the instruments show the temperature going up. (This didn't happen before 1960.) No one knows why the trees have gone gaga, but as the instrumental record is very complete by 1960 they just dropped the tree rings.

Hopefully it is now obvious any claim they were trying to hide what happened recently is absurd. They were trying to reconstruct what happened in previous centuries, not this one. What's more any claim they were "hiding" anything is bizarre. They disclosed everything in the paper, including the raw data sets.

The most charitable explanation for accusations of this being an academic conspiracy is the accuser didn't bother to look up the facts. Or I guess they could be nuts - ie your traditional, off with the pixies conspiracy theorist. And finally they could be just plain lying. I reckon the leaders of the charge are the liars, and the bulk of the rest don't to check if they are being fed crap because they find the politics agreeable.

To Q&A You referred to my post and replied; What makes you think the problems are unsolvable?

I don't think that they are unsolvable but I have pointed our that taxing every person in the developed world is not going to change climate and selling carbon credits is ludicrous.

I will say again don't wish to hard for what you want, it may just happen and you will not be around to wear the suffering a united force could apply to ordinary people in the guise of "saving the world".

The Germans did it. That's what they called "A New World Order" all about dominance.

You don't really believe that selling carbon credits will change the world? There is a businessman in New Guinea telling the poor buggers they will get lot of money from carbon credits if he can go in and cut down their forests. They don't even know what carbon credits are, they think it is the carbon that is left after burning what's left of the forests...please. That man is being backed by powerful people here in Australia he has powerful friends.....so, do you think that is okay?

By the way those people in New Guinea are only just coming out of tribal culture, not so long ago they worshiped a "cargo cult". They were the planes that dropped provisions to the troops in the war. Some hadn't even seen a white man and didn't until after the war.

Do you think that this greedy prick should be able to take away the homes and lifestyle of these people? They haven't received any money for their acquiescence to these deals in any case and probably won't.

Quite honestly I am ashamed that an Australian would do that but he is and he has the blessing of those in power, under the umbrella of carbon trading! It is all BS..

RaeBee: "You don't really believe that selling carbon credits will change the world?"

Sulphur Dioxide trading did change the world, bringing a large reduction in emissions and hence a reduction in acid rain. Carbon trading is being introduced because it was such a success.

Whether the ETS will be a success remains to be seen. The problem isn't with the concept. It is with the current political horse trading, which has turned what should have been simple into a monster. However, I heard the other day the actual legislation anticipated this to some extent, and made it easier to simplify things later, once we get some experience with what works and what doesn't, without rebuilding the entire edifice from scratch.

We will see I guess.

Once a new tax is law, the tax will never go away, it happens constantly. We are the most taxed country in the world.

The people effected by this new tax are people who can least afford it. It is fine for businessmen and politicians to bring in these measures with assurances that it won't hurt the low to middle income earners and for 3 years there will be compensation for the ETS; what then after 3 years?

The ETS will change our lifestyle and our society more than the ever widening gap between the have and have nots. Is that okay? I don't think it is and I am not prepared to take Penny Wong's assurance that it is good "risk management", expensive risk management.

However, I won't be around to see if indeed there is any change in the climate and neither will Penny Wong or Kevin Rudd. The climate in Australia as far as I can feel and see has not changed since I was a kid and I ahve been around for a good while. It gets hot here, it always has, it isn't pleasant and it is not Utopia or Camelot but young people think a hot day over 100 in the old money is scary and a bit of a dust storm indicates the end of the world and an indication of global warming! Please.. Go to Tasmania, it's cool there. Don't go to SA though because it has always but always been hot there, it's not new.

Water collection from the top end, which could be done, would be a more definite and effective way of dealing with the lack of water in the drier areas in this country rather than spending gazillions trying to please the world.

ReaBee: "We are the most taxed country in the world."

There is nothing like a bit of wild exaggeration to seal an argument. Unless of course you get sprung doing it. We see here http://j.mp/68b7bg that Australia ranks 135 out of 179 nations on the planet. If you just look at our equals, eg the OECD, then we are the 6th _lowest_ out of the 30 http://j.mp/6rUMpl

ReaBee: "The ETS will change our lifestyle and our society more than the ever widening gap between the have and have nots. Is that okay?"

It isn't OK. But I would have to be convinced you weren't just making that up too before I worried about it too much.

ReaBee: "The climate in Australia as far as I can feel and see has not changed since I was a kid"

I don't know where you live, but in Brisbane I can assure you there is nothing normal about recent temperatures. The monthly average for August, November were the highest ever recorded. If this December continues as it has started, it will be another highest ever recorded. I know this not only because it has felt unseasonally hot but because the BOM also agrees. November: http://j.mp/90p6XK August: http://j.mp/6mmYf4 You can find data for the rest of the year here: http://j.mp/6ZW9ag

Right now it is a balmy 33.5, with 54% humidity, and this has been typical for December so far. The average maximum temperature in Brisbane for December is under 30. http://j.mp/789jPd Even the top 10% of temperatures for Brisbane is under 33 http://j.mp/5avERY yet on most days this December have been higher.

Finally ReaBee, the world is bigger than Australia. We don't experience the worst of the Global Warming, the northern hemisphere does: http://j.mp/6YIpqI So even if you don't notice it (and it beyond me how you could not notice the dry period in the last decade), a large chunk of the rest of the world is getting poked much harder by the climate, and have noticed it.

So, you give your hard earned to it, don't expect me to and like it.
I want a better life for my grand kids than this will offer.

Stupendous egos are driving this and also stupendous greed. The needs of people in this country should come first. Carbon trading will not do that.

Learn to live with the heat in this country by the way, it is what we all endure and have done long before air conditioning was the norm.

Oviously I don't believe in the global warming scenario and am quite happy to admit it. I think their modelling is flawed and has been from the start, I can't be more clear.

And quite honestly I don't give a fig what happens elsewhere. I will be buggered if I will give up what I worked all my life for, just so that politicians and the like can bask in the world spotlight and deliver more taxation to people who are up against the wall NOW just trying to live a decent life.

So far these 100 odd representatives haven't done anything it is nothing but a huge expensive talk fest. It's obscene and we are paying for it.