I grew up Presbyterian. Presbyterian is probably one of the most liberal denominations around, but there's an under current of mistrust - as with all Christian denominations I think - of Islam.

I was brought up to be tolerant. Of course, being human you gain certain beliefs of your own based on your experiences and the experiences of those who influence your learning processes as you become an independent person with independent thoughts. Generally speaking I stay true to the Presbyterian way of being middle of the road with tendencies either way depending on the topic, but the one topic that pretty much always made you lean to the right was the topic of Islam.

Islam, generally and historically, is the basic enemy of Christianity. There has ALWAYS been an under current of fear of Islam and the 'untaught and undocumented' teachings were that we WILL eventually end up in a war based solely on our beliefs. I'm talking about the end of time prophecies. To Atheists and non-believers this will be the equivalent to fairies and unicorns but in the end your beliefs are irrelevant, to us. You are fodder, in the end. That's 'the reality'.

My basic genetic makeup that of mistrust of Muslims and Islam. I reckon probably that could be said the same for them. I have all the time in the world for other human beings if they need my time. No matter their origins or beliefs. I actually helped an ex-Iraqi Republican guard through a security course as a fellow student. I helped him understand certain things. I enjoyed it, and had faith in the government that they were sure about this bloke. Nice guy, but failed because of his language skills.

What horrifies me though is my underlying intolerance and suspicion of Muslims. I'm actually busting to do a course on Arabic and Islam to learn for myself the truth.

Where do you all think this will all end up. Will there actually be an end to all this, or are we heading for an a monumental moment in the human race?.

Christians and Muslims will get along fine as long as they're not forced to tolerate and live in multicultural societies with each other.

The real problem is the leftist-atheists who try to force different people to live together even though both sides just want to live out their own culture.

So, we need to remove organisations like the UN that just increase tensions between groups by trying to make them tolerate others.

This will be true progress!

I do not understand Presbyterian and feel no need to run out and buy a book about it. If they keep their religion to their houses and mosques sans minerets then no drama. There is no law you have tolerate any religion, just have to tolerate the people rights to live in fairyland if they wish. It is not a requirement of tolerance to adopt their belief system or any outward cultural expression of same. You should not even feel the need to understand it. Religion is a belief system that should not be political or cultural in an essentially secular society.

I am actually concerned we now have looney Catholics running the liberal party and a PM who does church door interviews. Never thought I would see the day.

distrust between Christians and Muslims is entirely the product of the male repression of women.
the insecurity that drives men to repress women is manifest in the repression of other religions.
religions administered by agreement between women's and men's committees would coexist in
mutual support.

*I'm actually busting to do a course on Arabic and Islam to learn for myself the truth.*

StG, some years ago I set out to do the same thing, but without
learning Arabic. Writing about religions is commonly left to
religious believers of one kind or another, so hardly unbiased.
I wanted facts, not fairy tales.

The most useful thing I found, was a book called "23 Years",
written by a Persian journalist called Ali Dashti, which was
eventualy tranlated into English.

Dashti spent part of his youth in a so called Madrassa, but later
on moved to journalism. In his 80s, he was eventually tortured
and died in Kohmeini's jails.

23 Years is basically a historical explanation of Mohammed, his
life, how things came together, how Islam as a religion began,
how the Koran came together. The world of Islam made alot more
sense to me after reading it.

Dashti makes no case for or against Islam, he applies good
skeptical questioning that an informed journalist would do.

Once you understand Muhammed's life and how the religion came
together, you'll understand why there is such a clash between
Islam and the rest of us.

I bought my copy from Amazon.

Whistler,

Sounds like you had a bad Father. Most of us had great Christian fathers who didn't repress our mothers but protected them from harm and allowed them to serve the community in line with a woman's basic motivation for existence. It has never been Christianity that has repressed women, it's the alcoholic, drug using atheists that women should watch out for.

StG “What horrifies me though is my underlying intolerance and suspicion of Muslims. I'm actually busting to do a course on Arabic and Islam to learn for myself the truth.”

What concerns me more is the intolerance of Muslims.

I am happy with my attitude and “tolerance:” but

I am becoming increasingly suspicious of women who insist on hiding their faces, men who demand their woman (or women) hide her face and that people, who risk death on the high seas to get here, claiming persecution as refugees go on to them Australia conforms or risks danger from their intolerance of non-Muslims.

In short, any Muslim who is not prepared to accept and RESPECT the religious norms of the vast majority of Judea-Christians in Australia are better off finding somewhere else to live.

TRUTHNOW78... whistler exists in a state of perpetual denial of real life. I would not bother to acknowledge her pointless expressions in pursuit of fantasy.

People who call themselves muslims are not a problem. It is those who follow and obey the teachings of their prophet that are intolerant and violent. INdonesia has many peace loving muslims. Thankfully many of them can't read the Koran so don't know what is expected of them from Allah.

I worked with a woman who married a muslim from Algeria. Unfortunately she was gullible and curious of difference like many western world women tend to be in the name of 'tolerance. Sure enough she found out to late that he had other wives in Malaysia and other parts of the world. Once her money was gone so was he. This is not an isolated incident and is one that true muslims would see nothing wrong with. Muslims believe it is okay to lie as long as they are not shamed. This leads to all sorts of abominations.

Yabby,

Thanks mate. I'll defintely sus it out.

StG,
You should note that from all the responses so far that there is as much intolerance, hostility and generalisation coming from both sides.

Added to this is the inability of many to discriminate between what is specific religious observance and cultural tradition.

Women from the world's largest Muslim nation do not necessarily cover their faces and one was even their Prime Minister not so long ago so not much oppression there. Even in Pakistan, Bhutto was a viable candidate but was assassinated.

Except for an extremist minority (which we also have) the differences between most religions comes down to marketing.

We had it in for the Jews only 50 years ago, now that the Communists have faded it's somebody else's turn.

StG: << What horrifies me though is my underlying intolerance and suspicion of Muslims. I'm actually busting to do a course on Arabic and Islam to learn for myself the truth. >>

What a refreshing approach, particularly from a practising Christian. Where will it end up? Who knows, but I think that StG's strategy is the most likely to result in mutual tolerance and understanding, unlike those that are based on the fear, ignorance and deliberate misinformation that is are all too common.

Good on you, StG.

Dear StG,

Islam is one of the world's major religions.
It claims the allegiance of a fifth of the
entire human population. Westerners often
think of Islam as an Arab religion, most
Muslims are not Arabs. The largest Muslim
populations are in Indonesia and India, and
there are large concentrations of Muslims in
China and the former Soviet Union. Islam is
the second-largest faith in Europe after
Christianity, and it competes with Christianity
in many black African countries. Trends in Islamic
societies, therefore, are potentially of global
importance.

Over the past decade, religious fervor has erupted
in the Islamic world in general and in the MIddle
East in particular. This fervor has been inspired
by fundamentalism, a commitment to, and reliance on,
the traditional basics of religious doctrine.

To many of us Islamic fundamentalism seems like a
return to medieval morality. It conjures up images
of women behind veils, of adulterers being stoned,
of thieves having their hands cut off, of public
floggings and executions, of martyrdom in holy wars,
and in very extreme cases, of political fanaticism
exemplified in aircraft hijackings and terrorist
bombings.

This picture is rather distorted, as its based on what's
newsworthy rather than what's typical.

Your willingness to learn more about Islam does you
credit and it's a step in the right direction.
Only through education can both sides begin to
understand our differences and find what unites us,
rather than what separates us. There's enough hatred
in the world. In order to survive, we have to learn
to co-exist with each other if this planet is to
survive.

wobbly thinker,
I'm sorry; was this post called Understanding Islam or Deliberately Misunderstanding Islam?
<Except for an extremist minority (which we also have)...>
I love this relativist canard.
Are you talking about the Christian fundamentalists who behead Muslims on the internet, etc, etc, ad nauseum?
<...the differences between most religions comes down to marketing>
And I thought that the main difference was that Jesus Christ called on his followers to love their enemies and Mohammed called on his followers to kill the unbelievers.

StG,
Save yourself lots of time by first reading
"The Complete Infidel's Guide to the Koran"
by Robert Spencer

CJ Morgan,
ditto the above and maybe you will develop a healthy fear, dispel some ignorance and will not have an excuse for deliberately misinforming.

Well why should anyone tolerate religion? You should tolerate people that have different beliefs but where is the rule you have to personally tolerate religion itself? That is idiotic.

Political persecution, religious persecution – same thing
Political free speech, religious free speech – same thing.

If you are censored in how any belief system impacts your life by being called xenophobic, racist or any other lazy idiotic term then you will embrace extremism views. Same in politics, if you have no say and emanded to accept or tolerate political movements then you are being persecuted. If some extremist political movement comes out to play you see them as the only viable option you will support it.

The failure was right from the start when tolerance of the ideology was confused with the real human right of tolerating people with different views, not having to adopt the symbols or associated cultures themselves. There is no law anywhere you need to tolerate anything, only people rights to have an opposing or different belief system. The people being forced to tolerate is actually political persecution. This has allowed extremism to gain support.

There is nothing wrong with objecting to these minarets. They are a cultural thing that will add or subtract to the vista of residents. In itself it is not religious persecution. The methods used to garner support perhaps are, but then the failure to allow free and open dialogue on the religious impact on society is political persecution. The fact the unfortunate way it has been arrived at is proof positive that other political parties have failed to uphold the right to an opinion and a say in how a cultural evolves or is protected, and that is a basic human right for all.

Sorry wrong thread though makes me wonder why start a thread telling people you are going to read a book? If everyone did that would be a bit extreme lol

There's Islam and there's Islam. It's a matter of which one you believe.
I recon they all want throwing out.
There has never been any good come out of any religion.

TheMissus,

Sorry, what would you like me to say?

I replied to one person and I get shot down for it?. I'll come back and reply to others that are on topic when I get more time. Trolling bait isn't worth the time...'cept for yours, unfortunately.

That okay with you?. Is there anything else I can explain to you?

STG I think we think alike, may be wrong but your first post fits me too.
Now in my opinion western governments seem to want us to mix, seem to think we will merge, become alike.
Or even one, it will never work.
Sorry here I take a different path than you, I agree with Switzerland's recent vote.
In fact in time this will grow, the idea we must change our culture to be more excepting of theirs.
Have you seen the wooden Santa Claus in cheap shops?, sure no true measure of Christmas, nothing Holly , but sold as wooden figure?
Why?
Why fear offending those who have totally different celebrations than us?
War may be the only answer but just saying no to culture killing ideas we always must change is a must.

Stg

I have no drama with muslims at all. Dated one for a while before I knew what a muslim was and religion was never a factor. Most muslims I have ever met religion never a factor. Same as most people I have met would not even know their religion. At a BBQ I do not stand around asking people their relgion then asking them to please explain. I take them as I find them. There is extremist nutters in every relgion and see no reason to exclaim to the world I am going to try and understand them because I never will.

Not a troll at all, just wonder why Islam is treated differently than any other religion. Would you start a thread to proclaim you are going to understand mormons? Too much attention empowers belief systems more than I am comfortable with. So I am on a need to know only basis as far as religion is concerned. If they want to build a mosque in my backyard I would object but they are welcome to enjoy a BBQ in same space. Same as looney right wing baptist.

TheMissus,
Can I come to your BBQ too?
I'll bring the pork sausages.

Dear STG,

Its great to see someone expressing their mind in this fashion.

If I may share an experience:
I grew up in an opposite sense: a Muslim from a Muslim family and been brought up in a Catholic school. Although my father was a neutral Sufi, I found the ‘other’ faith confusing and at times contradicting my faith / belief system.

I discussed the issue with a Catholic monk at school. His idea was that my concerns were a by product of me not knowing the other and his advice was to spend sometime understanding the other with a focus on what we have in common. It went a long way.

I think it was Churchill who said “ I don’t like this man, I will spend more time getting to know him”.

Peace,

TheMissus,

"...just wonder why Islam is treated differently than any other religion. Would you start a thread to proclaim you are going to understand mormons?"

It's to do with the ancestor of Muslims being the illegitimate child of Abraham. Long story, not going into it here.

I didn't start the thread to proclaim I'm going to understand Islam. Communicating with me like that is why you'll only find me confronting. It's rude. I'm happy to talk, but don't be condescending. I'll just write you off, and I couldn't care less.

Belly,

Yeah, you're right. I'm not for stopping what we do for anyone. That's probably the problem I have with the extreme lefties not wanting to offend. FARQ them.

Desmond,

Yes. Christmas. LOVE free stuff.

HermanYutic,

Cheers, I will. I'll read anything really.

Foxy,

Thank you. I always find you reasonable. Cheers.

CJ Morgan,

Thanks. Who doesn't want to learn?

wobbles,

"Except for an extremist minority (which we also have) the differences between most religions comes down to marketing."

Never a truer word spoke.

Col Rouge,

I agree that if you're heading towards a multicultural society there HAS to be a large amount of assimilation to respect whats already here. Too bad we didn't figure that out with the Indigenous population.

Fellow_Human,

Thank you. I like that quote. It sums it up nicely.

Peace back at ya.

Too all: I'm probably nearly out of allowable replies in any given 24 hours period - which is ridiculous, but if I am I'll reply as soon as I can if you comment.

Islam is more than a religion; it is a whole political system that controls every facet of life and thought. It is not merely a personal discipline of how one chooses to live. It is a 6th century world view of a unified society controlled by law and incorporates strict theism. That is why devotees are largly tribal in their action.

HermanYutic,

"Are you talking about the Christian fundamentalists who behead Muslims on the internet, etc, etc, ad nauseum"

No, I'm talking about those influential ones like this -

http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/Culture_War/The_American_Taliban.html

"And I thought that the main difference was that Jesus Christ called on his followers to love their enemies" (like some in these forums?) "and Mohammed called on his followers to kill the unbelievers". (There are a lot of dead civilian Iraqis who may have agreed with you if they had the chance.)

I'm not justifying anything, wrong is wrong no matter who does it - only maintaining perspective. Sorry if I strayed from the populist script.

Er Philo - your entire last comment could be equally applied to fundamentalist Christianity.

But only if you wanted to portray it as negatively as possible, without understanding.

So! The Internet is still a place for flapping gums. Funny how you all love a kebab? See, In the real world, we are all one. Australia is a place of Peace, and if you don't like it, well.....// and good luck to you. See!,the world is winding down from the religious ( your this and your that ) and the US is still playing this, well! your not that dumb? Time to think! ( what GOD? ) and if you are still prepared to kill for it, the smaller minds you have.
Have you people lost your minds.

YOU GIVE ME GOD! AND WILL PAY FOR YOUR BULLETS.

Wake up, and think ahead.

CJ,
I have attended lectures by Kaiser Trad on Islam and read the Kor'an for myself. The Lakemba Mosque teaches clearly that Islam is a whole political and religious system.

Indonesia has the largest population of Muslims but their cultural beliefs and expressions are not the same as devotees in the Middle East, they are more pragmatic. They have a mixture of local superstition intertwined in the religion similar to the Christians in Indonesia. Only those taught by hard line Immams hold to the true spirit of Islam and the Kor'an.

The threat is not from the religious area of belief but the political system they believe is the will of Allah that the whole world be subject to His laws

You don't listen to yourself, Philo, do you.

>>Only those taught by hard line Immams hold to the true spirit of Islam and the Kor'an.<<

As CJ pointed out, statements like these are no more than manifestations of your personal religious bigotry - along the lines of "my religion is better than yours, so there, nerny nerny ner".

Here's a quote from one of your Christian kinsmen, Philo:

"We recognize that Christ is the light of the world. The lighted cross is a symbol of freedom - freedom from sin - freedom from tyranny. When a Klansman or Klanswoman participates in a cross lighting ceremony they are making a public declaration to Jesus Christ of their continued commitment to the Christian faith."

http://www.kkk.bz/cross.htm

See what I mean?

Just a few subtle alterations to your comment, and we get:

"Only those taught by hard line Klansmen hold to the true spirit of Jesus and the Bible"

It's OK, I am aware that these parallels mean absolutely nothing to you.

But you can possibly see how others, not so wrapped up in fear and loathing of people who don't share their beliefs, can sometimes find your rantings a little... how shall we say it gently... distasteful?

Fellow_Human,
I think it was Churchill who said “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as (rabies) in a dog…No stronger retrograde force exists in the world…Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith”

wobbly thinker,
You refuse to get it.
The “American Taliban” SAY things that some find offensive.
The Islamic Taliban rape women who they consider inappropriately dressed, they burn girl’s schools, they behead infidels.
How can you persist in drawing an equivalence?
Is that how you reconcile the cognitive dissonance between your ideology and what you actually see?
“They say things I find offensive so they’re just as bad as the Taliban”?
This says more about you than it does about the “American Taliban”.

Philo,
You forgot to mention the Indonesian Aceh province passing a law making stoning the penalty for adultery.
Must be a quaint local custom that they’re reviving.

Pericles,
You are concocting false parallels between a radical fringe element group, whose views are rightly and roundly repudiated by “Christendom”, and Islamists.
Please show me where around the world the KKK are bombing train stations and bringing down skyscrapers while Christians rally in the streets to applaud their actions.
How you can reconcile within your mind such ludicrous analogies beggars the imagination.

HermanYutic,
You are right however what happened in Aceh is indoctrinated primitive Middle Eastern behaviour and not consistent with the whole pragmatic attitude of the Indonesian people.

Not at all, dear boy.

>>You are concocting false parallels between a radical fringe element group, whose views are rightly and roundly repudiated by “Christendom”, and Islamists<<

The parallels are there for all to see.

Most - but not all - Christians think the Klan is a bunch of dangerous thugs, who terrorise and murder people whom they disapprove of.

Most - but not all - Muslims think that radical Islamists are a bunch of dangerous thugs, who terrorise and murder people whom they disapprove of.

Meanwhile, the Klan see themselves as following Jesus' instructions, as radical Islamists see themselves following those of their prophet Muhammad.

>>How you can reconcile within your mind such ludicrous analogies beggars the imagination.<<

And how you fail to see the connection between two sets of religious fanatics, separated merely by a label, is a compete mystery.

Pericles,

Let’s take it slowly shall we?

“Most - but not all - Christians think the Klan is a bunch of dangerous thugs, who terrorise and murder people whom they disapprove of.”
Please provide data on how many people the Klan terrorise and murder. To help you bolster your numbers feel free to include the case of Valerie Kennedy who pulled Amal Abusumayah’s hijab in a supermarket queue in Tinley Park, Illinois just after the Fort Hood massacre and is now out on bail facing hate-crimes charges which carry a jail sentence of up to 3 years and maximum $25,000 fine. Her actions were the apogee of the violent, hateful backlash of Islamophobic violence which erupted in the USA after Fort Hood.

“Most - but not all - Muslims think that radical Islamists are a bunch of dangerous thugs, who terrorise and murder people whom they disapprove of.”
Since 9/11 there have been 14,458 documented deadly terror attacks carried out by Islamists around the world.
These acts are justified by their perpetrators based on orthodox interpretation of the Koran.

“Meanwhile, the Klan see themselves as following Jesus' instructions, as radical Islamists see themselves following those of their prophet Muhammad.”
Only the KKK see themselves as following Jesus' instructions whereas no other Christian would because their actions (or inactions really) contradict Jesus’ teachings.
However, Islamists are indisputably following the instructions of their prophet Muhammad.
In fact they are following in his footsteps, as the Koran instructs them to do

Your self-servingly simplistic analogies are patently false.

When stripped to the bone your absurd argument becomes: not all Christians disapprove of the KKK and not all Muslims disapprove of radical Islamists, therefore they are just as bad as each other.

God/Allah/evolution gave you a brain.
Why don't you shift it into gear?

So you clearly agree in principle, HermanYutic. It's just the level of detail that you take issue with.

>>Please provide data on how many people the Klan terrorise and murder<<

It's a bit like that famous - and apocryphal - story about Churchill:

"Churchill: Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?
Socialite: My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course...
Churchill: Would you sleep with me for five pounds?
Socialite: Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!
Churchill: Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price"

We're agreed that both the Klan and Islamic terrorists are militant religious fundamentalists. You seem to think that the relatively low amount of Klan terrorism excuses them.

How about the IRA? Or the UDF? Do you have the same excuse for them?

>>Only the KKK see themselves as following Jesus' instructions<<

Yep, that's exactly what I said.

>>Islamists are indisputably following the instructions of their prophet Muhammad.<<

Yep, that's exactly what I said.

So we're agreed on that too. We're making good progress here.

>>Your self-servingly simplistic analogies are patently false.<<

Oh.

Oh dear.

And I thought for a moment that we are of one mind.

>>When stripped to the bone your absurd argument becomes: not all Christians disapprove of the KKK and not all Muslims disapprove of radical Islamists, therefore they are just as bad as each other.<<

Well, they're your words, not mine. But if you like to think in those ultra-simplistic terms, I suppose you'd not be terribly far wrong. On balance, I prefer to think that that terrorists of either persuasion are unrepresentative of their respective religions.

And that they are regarded as such, by the rank-and-file members of those religions.

But I'm happy to go along with your interpretation, if it means that much to you.

Even more agreement, you see.

Which must be a good thing, yes?