It was quite riveting watching the footage and stories around the anniversary of the collapse of the Berlin Wall in 89.

Whatever one thinks of the man, Reagan's speech in Berlin, 29 months before the event, in which he said “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!” was powerful.

The wall stood for 28 years and few thought they would see its demolition in their lifetime.

The equivalent in our times is of course the wall the State of Israel has built around Gaza and the West Bank. Again at this time it is hard to see it ever coming down but it surely must. Why? Because although there often seems to be ample evidence to the contrary I believe as an evolving species we are better than that.

In Reagan's speech he referred to some graffiti he had seen on the wall earlier in the day. It read “This wall will fall, Beliefs become reality”.

So over a lazy family BBQ this weekend we had the occasion to ask the question; who would best make the equivalent of Reagan's speech in that part of the world and on which side would they be standing?

Though other suggestions were flagged the highest vote getter was Chancellor Angela Merkel speaking from the Palestinian side of the wall, in Bethlehem (I personally preferred Jericho).

I was wondering if the good folk of the OLO Forum had any thoughts on the above question and possibly a prediction on the timeframe of the wall's survival.

Csteele “The equivalent in our times is of course the wall the State of Israel has built around Gaza and the West Bank”

Wrong

The point of the Berlin wall was to keep people in.

The point of Gaza wall is to keep people out.

Somehow I see ordinary East Germans and anyone else subjugated under the yoke of socialist/communist oppression as entirely different to terrorist minded bombers and fighters who do not stop at blowing up children.

The Israeli wall will last as long as the Israelis are threatened by the murderous and pointless Palestinians, who for over half a century have been the spoilers of everywhere they have grouped - hence, their eviction from Jordan, their illicit occupation of Southern Lebanon and the fighting and civil conflict in Gaza - between themselves.

Reagan was a visionary, a man of conviction and worth (just like Margaret Thatcher, hence their friendship).

Of those who aspire to strut the world stage today – they are just a bunch of spin-doctor’s mouth pieces.

Obama, Krudd, Brown (or Blair before him) – none of them have the vision or real sincerity of the Reagan’s and Thatcher’s.

They just have sweet saccharin words, designed to win the votes of feeble minded sheep.

Dear csteele,

Arbitrary arrests, incarceration without trial,
the killing of civilians, inhumane roadblocks,
settlement expansion, forcing people out of their
homes and stealing their property, all this leads
the Palestinians to one conclusion: that the Israelis,
and their US backers are not serious about peace.

Israel's Supreme Court ruled that sections
of this barrier violates Palestinian human rights.

In 2004 the International Court of Justice found that
the barrier broke international law because of its
negative impact on the Palestinian residents along its
route and because Israel built the wall on occupied
territory rather than along the 1967 "Green Line."

As Antony Loewenstein tells us in, "My Israel
Question,":

"All three major political parties in the 2006 Israeli
elections essentially argued for the same outcome:
for the Palestinians to disappear, or to be made
invisible to Israeli eyes..."

"Some 30 years ago Moshe Dayan explained the thinking
that continues to this day: Israelis should tell the
Palestinians in the territories that 'you shall continue
to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we
shall see where this process will lead.' The occupation
should remain permanent in one form or another, he argued."

Loewenstein says, " I still hope for a day when Zionists
will cease using Israel's "security", or the Holocaust,
or the "war on terror" to justify and excuse actions
that are routinely condemned when committed by any other
country."

"People seem to make no distinction between an occupied
people and those who occupy them. Israel talks about the
right of self-defence. How can an occupier claim self-defence
but deny the same right to those who are occupied and
have the right of self-defence with whatever means are
available to them."

Unfortunately as Loewenstein points out:
" the Kadima vision is of a concrete wall,
with Jews on one side and as many Palestinians as
possible on the other."

"Neither side has a monopoly on suffering, but only
one party has the power to end the occupation and
to recognise that Israel and Palestine are historically
destined to share the same homeland."

The wall must come down!

Dear Col Rouge,

<<Somehow I see ordinary East Germans and anyone else subjugated under the yoke of socialist/communist oppression as entirely different to terrorist minded bombers and fighters who do not stop at blowing up children.>>

It is an indictment that it was only after I had read past this statement that I was able to discern who you were referring to.

My focus had been the West Bank Wall which when completed will be 703kms long compared to the Berlin Wall which was 199kms.

The West Bank Wall intrudes well into Palestinian territory and is as much an exercise in land acquisition as security. It has excised 8.5% of the West Bank Territory and a 2005 UN report stated “The land between the Barrier and the Green Line constitutes some of the most fertile in the West Bank”. The Berlin Wall followed recognised borders.

The International Court found that “the construction by Israel of a wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and its associated régime are contrary to international law"

One only has to look at the current state of the West Bank to realise how great a crime this is and how it will be regarded in the future.

http://www.btselem.org/Download/Separation_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf

As to Reagan to agree to secretly sell weapons to the Iranians to free the embassy hostages with money source via drug deals with the Contras really set the tone for the rest of his presidency. A man of conviction maybe but hardly worthy.

CONT'D...

You ask for a time frame for the
wall coming down?

The day will come when the religious zealots have
less influence in Israeli government's affairs.
In the meantime, unless the world unites in
condeming Israel (as it did with the apartheid
policy of South Africa), I don't see the wall
coming down any time soon. I believe that many
in Israel have a vested interest in prolonging
the conflict despite the fact that many Israelis,
like the Palestinians simply want to live in peace.
Even though successive leaders in Israel and the
Diaspora seem determined to umdermine this possibility.

I feel that Israel opposes a resolution to this conflict
because it opposes the presence of another people on land
it has claimed as exclusively for Jews.

The real challenge is to persuade our political leaders
and the news media to listen to voices that challenge
their prejudices and preconceptions. A Palestinian
state will not happen easily, not without the involvement
of many caring people. Just as John F. Kennedy said in
Berlin so many years ago, "I am a Berliner!" ('Ich bein ein
Berliner').
So Barack Obama could easily say, "I believe in the future of
Palestine and its people, without walls!"
(Or words to that effect).

The conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians has been going on for far too long for any one of us not involved in the conflict to take sides.
Both sides have been equally as violent in their dealings with each other as far as I can see.

The wall should not have been built. I am appalled that the US has taken the Israelis side and thus appears to be condoning the building of this wall.
It will cause nothing but pain, as did the Berlin wall.

Unfortunately, this wall is necessary - but a few modifications are needed:

1. Some sections need to be moved, so the wall stands exactly on the 1967 border-line.
2. The Jewish settlers should remain on the east side of the wall.
3. Moderate Arabs who can demonstrate their peaceful, benevolent intentions should be allowed into Israel, west of the wall.
4. The wall should be further heightened, fortified and tightly closed.

This will safeguard all reasonable ordinary people who want to live in peace. The fanatics of both colours will be left outside, to kill each other if they so wish.

csteele “It is an indictment that it was only after I had read past this statement that I was able to discern who you were referring to.”

An indictment of what – the limits of your comprehension?

“My focus had been the West Bank Wall which when completed will be 703kms long compared to the Berlin Wall which was 199kms.”

And the Berlin wall formed part of the Iron Curtain which went from Finland to Northern Greece and was constructed to keep the people of Eastern Europe imprisoned within their Communist Gulag.

So since “size” seems to matter so much to you (703 kms versus 199 kms),

lets just say you have just been “upped”, should I call you "shorty"

“excising” my personal view happens to be that the entire West Bank was forfeit and representing the “spoils of war” when the combined Palestinian and Arab forces tried and failed (miserably) to push the Jews into the Ocean during the 1967 war.

“The International Court… blah blah” the toothless tiger used by anyone lacking authority to justify some point of detail.

“One only has to look at the current state of the West Bank to realise how great a crime this is and how it will be regarded in the future.”

Not as great a crime as

blowing up the Israeli Olympic team at Munich in 1972 or

taking and killing of hostages from civilian jets or

kidnapping Israelis and taking them to Uganda from where the Israelis mounted a recovery exercise …

I could go on and on and on

But I will leave it there, for now !

“As to Reagan to agree to secretly sell weapons to the Iranians to free the embassy hostages with money source via drug deals with the Contras really set the tone for the rest of his presidency. A man of conviction maybe but hardly worthy.”

Ah here we go, pointing out the irrelevant, to besmirch the achievements of the man who oversaw the strategy which brought down the Berlin Wall and freed millions from the yoke of communist oppression.

Dear Col Rouge,

You can be a very funny person.

My comprehension has taken me from a very positive and supporting position on Israel to one of condemnation. This has occurred because I have 'comprehended' the gravity of their actions while certainly not excusing those on the other side of the conflict.

That you seem unable to examine the situation with any balanced perspective means I'm hardly going to lose much sleep over your assessment of me.

On the issue of sizes I was actually referring to walls as opposed to fences but the Iron Curtain did certainly extend across Europe.

The International Court of Justice was asked by the UN to determine the legality of the wall under international law.

It ruled that the wall was illegal and its construction must stop immediately.

In the subsequent General Assembly vote in 2004 of the 150 nations who attended only 6; US, Israel, Australia, Federated states of Micronesia, Palau and Solomon Islands (didn't Australia become a lapdog under Howard) voted against it.

So you want to dismiss the Court, international law, the UN General Assembly? I think that takes a certain lack of comprehension on what it takes to work toward a more peaceful world.

I'm not sure I want to go tit for tat but in the interest of a modicum of balance I understand the one of the first acts of air piracy in the history of civilian aviation was the ordering down of a Syrian airliner to Tel Aviv in 1954 where its crew and passengers were held for several days. One of the first deliberate shooting down of a civilian aircraft was ordered by Israeli Prime minister Golda Meir in 1973 of a Libyan Airliner killing 107 passengers and all the French crew.

Cont..

Cont..

As to “to terrorist minded bombers and fighters who do not stop at blowing up children” could I offer the following from Wikipedia;

“A Jewish group known as the "Bat Ayin Underground" has been associated with the settlement. In 2002, four people from Bat Ayin and Hebron plotted an attack against a Palestinian girls' school in East Jerusalem, using a wagon meant to explode in the morning on the street outside. Four members were convicted by an Israeli court for attempting to perpetrate the attack and were sentenced to twelve to fifteen years.”

Do you regard this as a terrorist act Col Rouge or just settlers defending themselves?

There is a modicum of truth is Yuyutsu's position. One does get the feeling that the greater population of Israel is quite happy to see the settlers exactly where they are. One has to question why the Palestinians have to shoulder the burden of these fanatics while Israel only needs to accept “Moderate Arabs who can demonstrate their peaceful, benevolent intentions”. Unfair in anyone's book I would have thought.

For you to claim “the achievements of the man who oversaw the strategy which brought down the Berlin Wall” was the work of Reagan is also a laugh. The CIA briefed Reagan on his first day in office that the USSR was collapsing from within. Can you point to one act by him that dramatically hastened the result?

Csteele wrote:

"One does get the feeling that the greater population of Israel is quite happy to see the settlers exactly where they are"

Not exactly - it would be nicer to see the settlers evaporate, but one has to be realistic. Even if Israel was by some miracle able to force the settlers back into its own borders, it would be unable to control this violent and angry mob who would terrorize Israel from within, so they better stay out. I wonder whether Australia would be willing to take them into Nauru or pay Indonesia to keep them...

As for checking non-citizens, verifying that their intentions are only peaceful before allowing them into the country, doesn't Australia (under all governments) do the same?

Dear Yuyutsu.

>>As for checking non-citizens, verifying that their intentions are only peaceful before allowing them into the country, doesn't Australia (under all governments) do the same?<<

Exactly! Why shouldn't the Palestinians be afforded just that right? Why do they have to deal with having these fanatics foisted on them? They have plenty of their own to deal with.

Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis should be allowed to export their problems.

The only way those problems can be owned by all is in a single state.

"Exactly! Why shouldn't the Palestinians be afforded just that right? Why do they have to deal with having these fanatics foisted on them?"

And why should Israel have to deal with the Hamas fanatics, their tunnels (designed to kidnap Israelis) and missiles, and had the wall not been there, suicide-bombers as well?

"They have plenty of their own to deal with"

Indeed, and they have not demonstrated any success there either.

"Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis should be allowed to export their problems"

What is done is done: the daemons are already out of the bottle, and they never asked for permissions in the first place. Neither Israel nor the Palestinians have the power to take back their daemon and push it back into its bottle, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE. They already grabbed their territories - the settlement-areas and the Gaza strip, so these are lost and all that is left is to build a strong wall around them and good anti-missile and anti-tunnel defences, as to minimize the damage to innocent people.

"The only way those problems can be owned by all is in a single state."

The only way is to isolate and keep out the fanatics.
No combination of one-state, 2-states or even 5-states can be stable with the fanatics inside.

Normal Israelis and normal Palestinians have no conflict between them, so once the fanatics are kept out, they will easily come to an agreement. Let them decide what's best for themselves, but I suspect that it will not be a single state, simply because they speak different languages and their cultures are too different. However, it could be a federation or a confederation, or simply 2 friendly states (not including the fanatics' ghettos) living side-by-side and sharing resources as part of the European-Union (assuming that Europe will pull its weight and contribute to the peace by accepting both).

Rstuart “I have 'comprehended' the gravity of their actions while certainly not excusing those on the other side of the conflict.”

You are not the sole vessel of comprehension.

I comprehend the consequences of tolerating states, like Palestine (or whatever you choose to call it), who see terrorism as a legitimate tool of diplomacy.

As dearest Margaret observed

"Israel must never be expected to jeopardize her security: if she was ever foolish enough to do so, and then suffered for it, the backlash against both honest brokers and Palestinians would be immense - 'land for peace' must also bring peace."

As the Palestinians continue to demonstrate, regardless what concessions Israel has made or may make,

rockets and terrorist attacks on Israel will continue

It is Palestinian intransigence which is the major hurdle to peace.

“So you want to dismiss the Court, international law, the UN General Assembly? I think that takes a certain lack of comprehension on what it takes to work toward a more peaceful world.”

Kowtowing to a bunch of murderous terrorists will achieve nothing.

The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist and if they coincidentally happen to be Palestinians, so be it.

Recent history is littered with the vacillating deceit and lies of the Palestinians.

Now they fight among themselves and cause havoc in Lebanon…

The Israelis are entitled to keep Israel safe and the territory Israeli acquired as the “spoils of war” from the 1967 war, is israel's to decide the disposition of, regardless what the international court or the UN (both toothless tigers) say because we, including the Palestinians, all know… what the UN and the international court will actually do

Sweet FA.

Regarding Israeli settlers terrorists

This is simple,

Israel sends her “settler terrorists” to trial and prison.

Palestine idolizes terrorists and award them places of honour in their community.

Each state can be considered in how they deal with terrorists “from their own ranks”
and obviously, I have no problem in supporting Israel,

what you do is a matter for your conscience

Dear Col Rouge,

Not quite as funny but all right.

Although 'dearest Margaret' did get a chuckle. I'm getting an image of Maggie's picture on your bedside table...am I close?

And calling me rstuart wasn't bad either.

However I am a little disappointed you seem to have given up on the gipper so soon.

I like the 'land for peace' question. One wonders how much of the West Bank the long suffering Palestinians have to give up before they get peace? They have effective control of less than half of it now. What is going to satisfy the Israelis?

It is like Japan invading Australia and placing us all in South Australia then every time we reacted they took a little more and if we protested the answer would be 'there is always New Zealand'.

So you've given the UN, the International Court and international law the flick can we try the Israeli Civil Administration who defines the unauthorised seizure of private Palestinian land as 'theft'. They also admit that one third of settlements are built on private Palestinian land originally seized by the IDF for 'security purposes'. This mentality of grabbing land for settlers then grabbing more land to secure them, letting that land be settled thus having reason to grab more is only headed one way.

Australia finally joined most of the rest of the world in condemning the settlements in 2008.

The rest of the world and now even the USA see Israeli “intransigence which is the major hurdle to peace.”

So Col Rouge at what point do you deem enough is enough if at all?

And please excuse the impertinence of the question but are you Jewish?

Dear Yuyutsu,

I was wondering if you have the same attitude to the Christian fanatics in Serbia? Should that area be separated into its religious divides as well, as many states as it takes?

The Christians in Serbia committed genocide on a scale that dwarfs the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the latter part of last century. I find it instructive to learn Serbia actually suspended the teaching of evolution in their schools for a short period of time until wiser heads prevailed.

Dear Csteele,

Sorry, I am not familiar with the situation in Serbia, so I never established any opinions on that matter. I guess that if your description is correct, so it's more or less the same as the middle-east and Serbian fanatics cannot be controlled otherwise, then an area should be designated and set aside, where all fanatics, Christian or otherwise, will be concentrated and conduct there their wars against each other without disturbing the others.

All I care is for my family to be able to live in safety and peace, without the nuisance of terrorists within their own country (of whatever religion) and being caught in-between those gangs fighting each other. They deserve to have a big wall that will keep those crazy fanatics locked behind it forever.

There is no war or conflict between ordinary Israelis and ordinary Palestinians. Even religion is not a big deal or a point of contention for normal people.

The world fails miserably to solve the middle-east crisis because it failed to identify the problem correctly in the first place: so many talks about the presumed "Israeli-Palestinian conflict" - how can one ever solve a problem that does not exist?!

The real crisis is about fanatic terrorists on both sides which neither Israel nor Palestine have the resources to control. If the world wants to help, we should be helping those people to quash this cancer instead of blindly attacking their healthy cells as well.