It appears that most big businesses that run the
country, and the Liberal Party, are run by
middle-aged men, who eventually get into difficulties,
lose elections, and are responsible for financial
meltdowns.

This is the impression created by the media.

Your thoughts please?

There is a side of the Liberal Party that many of us cannot stand... smug rich boys like Malcom Turnbull and Alexander Downer. Whatever his faults, John Howard at least knew enough to try and look like he was a little down to earth.

Why diminish the sterling (not!) efforts of the Hon Julie Bishop and others?

However it is not only the Liberal Party that has its dead weights. What about Anna Bligh, the Premier of Queensland who removes her foot from her mouth only to shoot it and she has plenty of senior Grrls in politics and the public service who are similarly inclined to help the government look worse than the rag tag opposition.

Going back to the Liberals, the party name was always a joke and a misnomer for the rather poor colonial copy of the British Tories that Ming so adored. So really the Liberals, every man and woman, act as they should, like Tories and as everyone knows they can be more than a little flakey and dotty.

It appears that our former elderly Prime Minister led us into the greatest economic boom in history. More Aussies prospered in this period than at any other time. Unfortunately our current incompetent middle aged men and women in the Labour party have managed to squander much of our gains in a very short period of time. The actual meltdown was largely brought about by Bill Clinton whose socialist policies many are paying for now. I seem to remember it was only a few years ago that Labour appointed Mark Latham (Gough's disciple) who was about to create mayhem on Australia to even greater extent than Mr Rudd has managed to do. IN saying that it seems middle aged men are a far greater choice than most middle aged woman many of whom have climbed the ladder by charm and manipulation rather than talent. I will give Ms Gillard some credit in that she has played the political game quite well as she awaits Mr Rudd's cult popularity to decline. It seems the Americans are quicker to see through spin as Mr Obama's popularity plummeting to lows very rapidly.

You may recall, benk, that Howard lost his Prime Ministership and his seat when the electorate realised that the humility was a sham.

Howard played the modest everyman, but is really just a standard-issue ageing Tory. His love of cricket and racial supremacism is genuine, but successfully hid his class-driven, born-to-rule mentality until he tried to shaft us all with WorkChoices.

Runner, while flagellating yourself for your sins, you may not have noticed that Howard rode a minerals boom, squandered the lot, then helped wreck the global economy through fiscal fundamentalism.

Rudd took the hospital pass and is doing a bloody good job of cleaning up after Howard's 12-year-long party.

As to the OP, the media create that impression because it's largely accurate.

Ming always looked and sounded so dismayed to be back in Australia. It was a great pity for him (and Australia) that there was no way he could ever have become the British PM, which he would have given his and every other Australian soul to get.

He was an absolute cr@p PM of Australia - always absent - and was most fortunate to be PM in the days when Australia rode on the sheep's back and seasons were kind. Of course the Liberals are obliged to laud him as their founder but Menzies was always at his best when out of Australia and ingratiating himself with the British blue bloods.

Of all of Menzies' many ingratiating quotes the most cringe worthy was for the young Queen Elizabeth II:

"I did but see her passing by and yet I love her 'til I die"

What a pompous ass he was!

I read somewhere:

"No political party is perfect
being made up of imperfect people."

I find it rather disappointing
that the Liberal Party currently offers
little in the way of alternatives to
distinguish itself from Labor. It seems
to be more concerned with power struggles,
and sheer desperation.

Menzies definitely wasn't a saint, as Cornflower
pointed out - but at least he did have wit.
I remember reading about the time - when Menzies was being
heckled during a speech he was making in a
public hall. The heckler called out something to
the effect:

"I wouldn't vote for you if you were the Angel Gabriel!"
To which Menzies quickly replied:

"If I was the Angel Gabriel, you wouldn't be in my
constituency!"

Australia needs genuine alternatives.
If she doesn't get them from the Liberal Party
and soon, people won't see any reason to vote
for them in the next election either.

Foxy
You naughty sexist, ageist you,
Firstly women do run major companies and aspire to run more. Those that do display support the same predatory (myopic focus). Therefore the gender argument is a red herring/irrelevant.
All parties have powerful non middle aged men back room gnomes etc.

Objectively it's the attitude/philosophy that you disdain and for good reason.

It's interesting to note that neither party is(philosophically) true to their name . If you consider what the US consider the meaning of Liberalism its nearer stated founding philosophy of the Liberal Party in *relative terms for the times*. Ming didn't want the English (philosophical) concept conservatism *of the time*. i.e. an elite ruling class.

However, times have changed and the Liberal party has philosophically hasn't and is now the conservative party of now.

The ALP has gone from representing 70% of the workers to now effectively the New Liberal party that relies on support of Business due to the Golden rule 'the group with the gold rules' = Big Business.

The problem with this that the political skew is right of centre.
To combat this one needs to understand the Strengths and weaknesses, other threats (SWOT) of their ECONOMIC based position. Economics is built on unlimited growth in a finite world.

Every one understand the process of an idea... from scepticism... to ridicule ...to acceptance. All this is predicated on knowledge to me a responsibility of all citizens. watch http://www.chrismartenson.com)the best quick and easy (no economics knowledge needed) description of how economics works I've ever seen.

The scariest thing he shows is the link between our money system and exponential population growth not just here but WW. He rightly and graphically shows how business as we know it, is drive us into a hole we may never escape (or survive to be dramatic) [my emphasis].

All due to the magic pudding syndrome (ever increasing consumption of energy and resources in a finite world). It boils down to we are living on debt, anyway look at the site and watch the lessons they run from a few minutes to 12 minutes each

Sadly it seems that middle aged men still take the fore in business and politics. Although women and younger people are starting to make an impact in all these sectors they are still a long way off from becoming as powerful as the men. It's a shame as I believe these categories of people ie the youth and females can really bring something innovative and fresh to the fore of politics and business. I think it is a slow process but one day, the landscape will be more balanced.

Middle-aged men run all mainstream Australian political parties - except, of course, for the Greens.

Just sayin'...

robby22, "females can really bring something innovative and fresh to the fore of politics and business."

Would you be thinking of Sallyanne Atkinson, the former Liberal Lord Mayor of Brisbane and more recently of ABC Learning fame?

It is ridiculous to think in terms of gender and age, that is si last century. Isn't it about finding people of ability and vision? Of course if the Liberal Party wants to continue along its old ways, take what you get and never you mind, then it will remain in opposition or more likely, fade off into the sunset.

After the John Howard experience, the party really needs to sit down and figure out if it is really about liberalism or not. Apart from that, the liberals can't always be blaming the electorate for electing the wrong government can they?

Dear Cornflower,

You've hit the nail on the head with
your last post.

This thread is not about gender, or age.
But about perceptions reflected in the
media.

Some of the questions that are being asked are:

1) What does the Liberal Party stand for these days?
2) How does it distinguish itself from Labor?
3) What does it offer that is unique and different?
4) Why should we not keep the current Government in power?
5) Can the Liberal Party give the country genuine alternatives
to the current government's policies?
6) Can the Liberal Party give the country a great leader in
these difficult times?
7) What are the Liberal Party's core values?

Ya have to just love the post from runner where he blames socialism for the current economic crisis.

Runner, you'll never get to Heaven unless you start telling the truth.

Runner you good thing!
Never get sick of reading your posts.
On display in every one is your total failure to understand reality.
Your bias and refusal to change, you are not going to heaven live while you can.
Middle age, no need to find another measure.
Middle age for most of us is 35, hardly likely any of us will reach the 100 so 50 is past it.
But the well fed bloated look is not just Liberal, increasingly we have such in Labors ranks.
The born to rule conservatives of my youth exist still, no longer calling England home, but they are there.
Rarely found shoulder to shoulder with such as me at the club or football, and both I and they are pleased they are not.

It never ceases to amaze me why pollies can't be wealthy people without having to deal with the old 'tall poppy' syndrome.

Yet, if you lot were to invest in a company you would no doubt seek one who's leader had the financial runs on the board. Sought of a ‘proven record’ you might say. Why should our politicle leaders be any different. Perhaps you would preferr a 'failed business man'.

Another thing that I can’t get my head around is the old ‘work choices debate’.

How could this have been so bad considering the amount of growth experienced, the amount of work around or the amount of confidence people had when they would go on that holiday, or buy that new boat or car, or even upgrade to a bigger, better house.

Sure, these laws effected some with poor skills, but was this really a problem considering the amount of assistance that was available for those to better themselves. Assistance which many chose to ignore.

All that has happened is these people, who had work, will be left on the scrap heap as they are simply not worth employing at full rates. If not for the re-introduction of ‘un fair dismissal’ most of them would be unemployed today.

Take a look around most shopping centres today. Do you see Aussies pushing trolleys, No! They were no doubt affordable on WC but now they are not so they no longer have work and their jobs have been given to forien contrators.

How clever is that

The difference between Rudd and Turnbull is that MT earned the money and KR married it.

Otherwise they are both middle aged wealthy and arrogant.

Business and politics are seldom run by men and women in their 20s for the simple reason that when you are young, you are yet to prove yourself, and don't have the perspective of experience.

So while the young might despair of compromises of their leaders, they don't have the depth to understand the need to temper ideals with reality.

As the greens don't see the need for reality, experience is a liability.

the media doesn't create this 'impression'.
a blatantly sexist Constitution providing for men's legislatures only
creates what the media interprets.

Dear Shadow Minister,

A few corrections need to be made in your
statement that, "the difference between
Malcolm Turnbull is that he earned his
money, whereas Kevin Rudd married his..."

Kevin Rudd not only earned his money,
but he helped his wife earn hers.

They met as students at University in Canberra
and were married in 1981.
Rudd's wife, Theresa Rein did not start the company,
Therese Rein and Associates, later Ingeus, until
1988. The couple borrowed money against their home
to start this company. The Campany was an international
Employment Services Agency that assisted jobseekers -
especially long term unemployed. It succeeded
after John Howard abolished the Commonwealth Employment
Services. Also - it should be
noted, that Therese Rein resigned as Chair of the
Company prior to her husband's running for office as PM.

If you want to really set the record straight on Kevin Rudd
however, you should Google his Biography.

I don't for one minute doubt your statement that much
can be achieved by middle-aged men. I'm simply wondering
why the current perception seems to be so negative about
the Liberal Party these days - that it has little to offer
that is unique and different.

Foxy,
The quip about sexism was a jest.

I answered your questions in a historical and organizational context.

1) What does the Liberal Party stand for these days? Maintain the power status quo including theirs. (Survival/power) old fashioned 'conservatism' paraphrasing Shadow minister 'to demonstrate *their* values (?)', "regain power" and "demonstrate how the Govt policies are failing"

2) How does it distinguish itself from Labor?
Hardly it is more left of the current centre slightly more people focused.(true liberal, US meaning)

3) What does it offer that is unique and different?

4) Why should we not keep the current Government in power? The libs haven't given us an alternative governing policy except for border control (they're totally anti every thing)Conservatives still not united on the existence of AGW.

5) Can the Liberal Party give the country genuine alternatives
to the current government's policies? I hope so but given what GY and SM have said We'll never know untill they get into power and even then they out with their unpopular ideology 'Work Choices' etc

6) Can the Liberal Party give the country a great leader in
these difficult times? I doubt that either party can due to the parties primary focus and commercial realities.

7) What are the Liberal Party's core values? Stuck in the early 60's and dominated by old time conservatism and economics that make no sense. A famous economist said "anyone who believes that growth can be unlimited in a finite world must be mad or an economist" I would add or has vested interests.

No criticism (shredding intended) just trying to help. :-)

Interesting Foxy. You are actually saying Ruddy used his insider knowledge, as a senior public servant to make himself rich. Sounds about right to me.

Have you noticed the bl@@dy awful mess Queensland is in. It's almost as bad as Vic was under labor.

The mess started with education, quickly followed by health. These were the first places that affirmative action was applied. The total catastrophe that ensued in these areas was hard to ignore, but ignored it was. I think some of these girls actually thought they were going great.

Then we found out what happens when you make a labor lady chief magistrate.

Now we have a silly little girls club in parliament, who have done such a great job, they are going to have to sell off the state to pay the simple bills. If you put the lot of them to running the school tuckshop, you'd have a lot of hungry kids, within a week.

Foxy, you are a very nice lady, perhaps a little too nice, but you really are quite naive.

Foxy,

Most of Rudd's references are to his political and other careers since 1981 (age 25). Unless he was only working in these roles part time, his role in Theresa's business was probably one of support and possibly a very junior partner role. (as maybe was Mrs Turnbull)

I was referring to people not just men in the later part of their careers.

Foxy;
Yes Bob Menzies was very entertaining to listen to him speak
at a political rally. In my very very youth I went to a political
rally, they used to have them in those days, where he spoke.
He got lots of hectoring but he always had a humorous response.
His responses were never nasty but always clever.
There was another pollie from Queensland whose name escapes me at the
moment, K something, that was well worth listening to even if you
disagreed with what he said.

We don't have any like that anymore, much the pity.

the silly little girls club in parliament to which
Hasbeen refers is, of course, at Federal law,
under male supervision, the silly lttle naive boys
club in parliament.

Dear Examinator and Others,

I'm so glad you were joking.
You had me worried for a while.

Thank You for answering my questions.
I can see that I've got a lot to learn as far as
politics go. And perhaps I am naive in many respects,
as a poster suggested.

What I find frustrating though is that the Liberal Party
seems to be experiencing a crisis of leadership now, not
so much because people lack the qualities necessary for it,
but because the Party seems to systemically invalidate
such qualities. Why is it so difficult in today's world
of the 21st Century here in Australia for a person to
stand up in excellence and power within the public realm?
There seem to be myriad forces marshaled against letting
them do so. Shouldn't the Party support the possibility
of greatness in anyone at any time?

They must rethink their attitudes about their leaders, or
at the rate they're going they'll soon have none left.

Shouldn't pollies be able to grow beyond a shallow fight?
Or power struggles.

Should they not be swayed by politics but the spirit of
doing what's right?

Foxy do not be upset by shadow minister, he may well be, and for a very long time, a shadow minister sounds very much like one to me and as does hasbeen.
You are quite right Kevin in very early years financed his wife.
It was very much touch and go, but she made it work.
In my view the difference between liberal middle aged men and Labor men of the same age is I, well past middle age, can see good in the other side.
Mind you it is not easy just now.
With respect SM and hasbeen appear to be front bencher's in the land of the extremely lost conservatives.

space would not allow reporting on the number of recent State Labour and ex Labour MP's who have been up on padeophille, corruption and lying charges. No wonder the floodgates have opened on porn and child abuse when we have such corrupt individuals in parliament. They are starting to make the Catholic church look good. These are mainly middle age men we can do without in Parliament. We are reaping what we are sowing.

Runner, you do yourself no service by being so openly one sided.

Ok, please give me the name of your Church (the denomination you worship under). Then give me 24 hours. I'll then come back here with a page full of criminal offences committed by people affiliated with your denomination.

I'm waiting.

Dear Belly,

Thanks for your concern - I deeply
appreciate it. It's such a gracious act.
You're a gentlemen, and a friend.

I think we're all thrown
curve balls in the form of people and situations
we're tempted to judge.

How otherwise would we grow but by growing
through such challenges.

Thanks Foxy I learn and grow every day.
Runner the shear bigotry in that post concerns me.
You seem to have changed over the last few months.
Always willing to invade threads to preach.
But now you kick other Church's and put me and my party in the evil bin.
Do you remember I was once a committed Christian?
Believe me mate in my life's journey I always wanted better and fell into that honey trap.
Thought we had no need to act better God would fix it.
Such as you runner woke me up.
An over heard telephone conversation [yes illegal but it happened] a minister telling another how much more could be raised on Sunday.
How to get it, how to spend it, my preacher was one of the two.
Now for Labors trash, we have some,
Not unlike any human group, you for instance, bad apples exist.
ANY one, from within my party, who is a pedophile, who is a criminal, earns my contempt.
Prison is never enough.
Bloke your God IS NOT WELL SERVED BY SUCH AS YOU.
I woke and continued to learn and grow.
No God exists, hope does the wish one could exist does the need for comfort does, but if he/she did exist you would not be a spokes person.

Hasbeen, it's interesting that you label Foxy as naive, however I find that there's this strange kind of reverse-naivete that applies to quite a number of posters.

It's the hyper-cynicism that results in a similar disconnect from reality - naive people don't appreciate the threats that exist in the world, nor do they recognise the full extent of the nastiness that can reside in people.

The hyper-cynical types do exactly the opposite. They believe any bad thing they hear, they're the types who you typically hear expounding dodgy 9-11 theories, or telling us how the entire world is controlled by a few cartels, or how the footy is rigged, or how everything's going to hell in a handbasket and things were better back in 'their' day.

They're just as naive as each other, and your posts occasionally come across as willing to believe the worst of everything.

Between the gullible extremes that make up the naive and the hyper-cynical, I'll take the naive every time as they're far more pleasant company, though I don't think either can apply to Foxy.

Dear TRTL,

Thanks for your kind words.

As I wrote in the thread that Individual
submitted about including our ages with
our usernames on OLO:

"... We don't grow, chronologically...
We grow sometimes in one dimension -
and not in another; unevenly.
We grow partially...we're mature in
one realm, childish in another, the past,
present, and future mingle and pull us
backward, forward, or fix us in the present...
We're made up of layers...."

Anyway, I saw a bumper-sticker on a car
that I liked:

" MY KARMA RAN OVER YOUR DOGMA!" :-)

Hasbeen,
The original Forrest Gump said it best.
"Evil thinks, evil sees"

Foxy naive? depends on your stance.

There is a vast difference between some one who sees good in every one and someone who spits (bile) and runs.
Perhaps, just perhaps it isn't in her nature to easily charge in with out any real knowledge, understanding and facts expressing what is a clear definition, of prejudices.

Or she's comfortable enough in herself not to need to impose unsupportable prejudices on others.

NB
Facts are proveable, testable and measurable. Indisputable

An hypothesis is one based on facts and letting the facts show the conclusion.

Opinions are base on some facts and related issues but to arrive at a (personal)reasoned conclusion usually harming attacking no one.

Prejudices have none of the above. Have their basis in feeling threatened.
A good test of this is to ask

"how often does the individual ask questions leaving the answer open to elicit answers or ask questions?"
"How often willing is the person to explain back it up references etc?"

Foxy definitely isn't in the last (prejudices) category.

Look back on your own responses do you pass the tests?
Hmmmmm?

Interesting Belly you are willing to overlook and defend the Labour party on the basis that they only have a few bad apples and then you slander the church on the basis of one or two bad apples you came across. Seems typical of those who want their prejudices confirmed. Seems to me you must have been looking for a reason to reject truth. I agree that their are rotten eggs in all organizations which is the reason why the world's only non rotten egg is our only hope of salvation. By the way, I think I will take Christ at His word rather than you when it comes to heaven.

runner I am not the right person to debate the rights and wrongs of your God with.
However I do remember why I once believed and wanted always to.
I thought then and now all men/women should be truely equal.
Now up the thread a wise contributor challenged you to name a church, any one, and he/she would give you a list of its wrongs, you did not do so.
Find any group of humans, any runner, and they will have bad apples, even vile members.
But you sit in your ivory tower using your faith, to judge whole party's, the God I once clung to said judge not least you be judged.
I except your insult and in truth hasbeen dislike, but look at my post history, you are far from first to say I support pedophilia.
runner in cold blooded truth I would without hesitation take the knife to those who commit such crimes, every one of them.
steers do less harm.
And my party has at least as many grubs as any your church may well have too.
I constantly question my own actions and words, do you ever truly consider yours?

Whilst the Constitution of Australia mandates that all women remain
under permanent male supervision, which naturally falls to middle-aged
men through a male predisposition to hierarchy, it can be said that
Labor's middle-aged men have encouraged women to acquire the skills
to eventually supervise their own through the women's legislature of
an equal rights republic, in contrast to the Liberal's middle-aged men
who have preferred predominantly to indulge in the politics of fear
which is largely repugnant to women. http://2mf.net

I can't help but wonder if the negotiations
between both political parties regarding
the Emissions Trading Scheme that the PM
wants to place on the table in Copenhagen
will succeed. Will the amendments that
the Opposition is proposing be accepted,
and if they are will the Opposition vote
in favour of the scheme?

As the author Tor hundloe points out in
his book, "From Buddha to Bono: Seeking
Sustainability,":

"Humans are slow learners...many still
believe the answers to our environmental
problems are not to be found in science...
Rather they seek the support of the supernatural,
yet the same people would not forgo the benefits
of modern medicine. The inconsistency is dramatic.
These people have come to realize that witchcraft
does not cure the ill. Why won't they accept that
only good science will help save the world?"

We can only hope that the politicians will put
politics aside for once and support the PM
in this matter.

Belly

I have never considered or entertained the thought that you or supporters of the Labour party support pedophilia. My point was that legislation is being voted and has been passed by many of these grubs who we later find out have abused kids (of which the Labour party has had a number of. The flow on affect of having corrupt men and women in PArliament is porn flooding the market and more child abuse. I know that the Labour party do have some good people in it. Unfortuantely they don't seem to get much of a voice.

I have little interest in church denominations as I agree all have bad apples including the church I have attended. If my faith was in a denomination I would of left the church long ago. These grubs however are not influencing our laws. We both agree on the same punishment for them whether they do it behind a frock or as a abuse of political power.

Foxy I offer as evidence of a lost, dysfunctional opposition this.
On Friday a very big name in the Liberal side said quote.
Even if labor excepts every amendment we may not vote for the system.
end quote.
A dead unfocused party, insulting those who built it in the belief voters are not aware what they are doing.
a policy of no policy other than oppose every thing, lie and try to miss lead on every issue, even denying their own party's policy's.
The coming election will be a dramatic lesson, the new leadership team will have even less talent.

Dear Belly,

I know the person you're referring to - he was
in the media recently and I admit that I too
found it very disappointing to have someone
so prominent in the Party make such negative statements -
which only brought the entire "negotiation"
process that's currently in play between the
parties into question. The comments also
undermine their own Leadership - which supposedly
is supporting these negotiations.

Poor show, I'd say!

" I offer as evidence of a lost, dysfunctional opposition this.
On Friday a very big name in the Liberal side said quote.
Even if labor excepts every amendment we may not vote for the system.
end quote."

Belly that could also be a sign that generally the right of politics has some tolerance for dissenting views. :)

Runner when Belly is claiming that the ALP is headed by an all knowing, all powerfull being who had advance knowledge of every bit of corruption committed by ALP members, advance knowledge of every incident of child abuse perpetrated by ALP members, who had the power and authority to act to stop every one of those incidents yet chose to not do so your complaints might make some sense. If your god knows all yet chose to allow child abuse to go on for a long time you have no place to criticise Belly's support for a party where there is no evidence that the leaders knew of the worst of the abuses yet chose to do nothing.

R0bert

Dear Robert,

I strongly disagree with your suggestion
that the right may have a tolerance for dissenting
views. Liberal Senator Nick Minchin deliberately
undermined Malcolm Turnbull's attempt to get a
deal with the Government. Senator Minchin is a
well known climate hardliner - and saying publicly
that the Opposition may reject the legislation even
if it gets its amendments is entirely incompatible
with good faith negotiations.

I agree completely with with Acting Climate Minister
Greg Combet who said:

"Negotiating with someone whose only baseline
position is that they don't want a deal is not a
negotiation - it's just another form of delay."

The Government is trying to do something positive -
they want to go to the Copenhagen Conference (in
December) with a clear position for Australia on
climate change. The Leader of the Opposition says
he and his Party support this - they have presented
a list of amendments - and now is the time for
genuine negotiations in good faith to be done - not
to use cheap delaying tactics to undermine the entire
process.

RObert I have never had anything but the up most respect for you.
You do not post as much as I would like.
In my view you and I from different sides of the fence show why this is the lucky country.
We find no reason to hate those who think differently.
I know, yes with certainty, my party is not always right, often gets it wrong.
But it is my view current conservative thought is lost.
In the vain hope slander and miss information, near lies and an opposition to every thing, is the best path back to government.
Surely it is not?
However while I am Labor forever the day will come, Labor will one day find the shine has faded.
I am more than willing to say not before at least
Two more election wins.
And a strong Liberal party, better for its time in the wilderness will be a fact.
Look closely at how low Labor went, gee we had Simon Crean as leader!
And in spite and rage he handed us over the Mad Mark Latham.
Policy's, new ideas, a focus on what the public want , are the future tools for Conservatives.
I see no freedom to think differently in conservatives, I see unfocused self destruction , a leader unable to lead and never able to win, who tell me currently in the house can replace him.
Yet replace him they must.

Belly there are certainly some who I think are destructive. I do get very suspicious when everybody tows the party line on a contentious issue, I'm cynical enough to suspect that disenting voices have been stomped on. I find it somewhat encouraging when those voices seem to be able to speak out even when I don't like what they say.

It's not always politically helpful to present a less than united front but I don't like the kind of government we get when leaders are to effective at shutting those voices up. I can think of one

Foxy I think that there are those on most sides of politics who embrace the idea of tollerance and those who reject it. The left spin merchants have done well at promoting the idea that the left is tollerant and the right is intollerant but I think that's mostly spin (and timing). The spin merchants play the bit's which suit and ignore the bit's that don't.

This thread is based on a perception about the Liberals and middle-aged men not because middle-aged men are unique to the liberals but because the spin merchants have played on that perception of the libs whilst pretending that middle-aged men don't hold similar roles in the ALP, Greens etc.

R0bert

Dear RObert,

Of course the spin merchants play the bits
that suit them, and ignore the bits that don't.
Spin merchants exist in both sides of politics.

However, what
has been disappointing of late, and why the media
picks on the Liberal Party is that all they seem
able to do is criticize - without offering any
alternatives. That gets a bit tiring after a while.
Take their tactics of "leaks" to the media...
(Ute-gate-affair, which backfired badly).

As Dennis Pryor pointed out in his
satirical take, "Political Pryorities: How
to get on top of Australian Politics," :

Leaks are, "...a method of manipulating the news
by testing or discrediting... by
informing members of the media on a confiential
basis. The method circumvents the publicity of
raising the matter in Parliament in the form of
legislation. Leaks may be recognised by the use
in the media of such expressions as 'informed sources..."

However, this problem is going to be around for a while -
long enough to allow us to judge the effectiveness of the PM's
policies, as well as the actions of the Opposition and their
chosen leaders and MPs.

I think what I've started to realise is that the old divisions of Left vs Right, conservative vs progressive, whilst still in existence, are being trumped by a bigger division: that of being in power vs not being in power.

How many times have you seen left-wingers being used as window-dressing by their parties, whilst their efforts are being undermined by unelected, backroom heavyweights? How many times do you see committed lefties in opposition switch sides when they get into government and become a Minister? This shows me that, in real life, the ideological aspects are often being trumped by real power.

Dear RobP,

I like Dennis Pryor's
"Newton's Laws of Political Motion.":

1) All political bodies continue in a
state of dishonesty unless they are acted upon
by external forces to reveal that dishonesty.

2) The rate of change of momentum in the speed
of government business is proportionate to the
nearness of the next election.

3) To every political blunder there is an equal
and opposite cover-up.

That's a classic, Foxy. It just shows you that physics rules in the physical world.

I seem to remember hearing something similar: the nth (bodgie) law of thermodynamics was that shite expands to fill the available space. There's another witticism having a political analogue.

Do you or anyone else know the other (bodgie) laws of thermodynamics?

Dear RobP,

No. Robbie, I don't know the bodgie
laws ... only the "Pryor's Laws of
Politics." (such as the law of opposite
results, the law of the dead donkey,
the law of political irony, the law of the
poltical alias, the law of obfuscation,
the law of opposite interpretation,
and the law of the handsome prince from a
far country or when in doubt import an
overseas expert, and the law of the magic
pudding).

The thread has amused me.
But it has left me questioning conservative views.
I have said clearly Labor too, has its middle aged men.
Well fed plump, far from underfed, fat men.
A respected conservative RObert has highlighted one man leadership, Rudd?
Surely yes surely we all know todays conservative tar pit comes as a result of just that?
John Howard [with the seeming exception of his some what strident wife] was just that.
Unable to let his control go?
And can the Bronwyn Bishops, Wilson Tucky's, that strange lady second in charge of the conservative ship Titanic be seen as healthy?
Or are they opening the pipes to the sea?
I am confident no white wash can hide the fact this movement is in deep trouble.
Devision is death in politics, rebuilding can only come via the impending disaster.
Silly as it sounds I hope new blood comes into the house on conservatives benches but warn it will need to be via very safe seats, the crash has been well earned by a dysfunctional party.

Dear Belly,

What you say makes a lot of sense.

But .....

Do you really think that new blood on the seats
of the conservatives is going to make that much
difference to a dysfunctional party?
Will the new blood be allowed to get anywhere?
Until the party wakes up to itself - and realizes
that just attacking policies is not the answer - giving
alternative solutions is - they are simply going
to remain on the sidelines of politics.

Belly I was thinking of both Howard and Rudd as "leaders" with a reputation for shutting down opposing views within their own parties.

Foxy there is a theory that we don't change governments based on the great policies of the other side but because we have got so sick of the current mob that a change seems necessary. The cynic in me thinks that attacking is just what is required to get power (not to provide good government). Labor was very successful with it's union run anti-workchoices campaign although the details of policy were not all that clear to most. To some extent the campaign against the coalitions treatment of "boat people" was also successful although I doubt that many realised the alternative was Indonesian run detention centers.

Policies announced too early give the other side to much time to attack the policy, to build negative perceptions against the policy without the opportunity to put it into place and people to see some benefits. It's not the way I'd like it to be but it does seem to be an unpleasant reality of our political system.

If we mistake tightly controlled for functional we make a bad mistake.

R0bert

Dear RObert,

You raise some valid well-reasoned points.

I don't expect the Opposition to give out
concrete policies as such, however I do wish
that they'd stop sounding like broken records
with their constant criticisms of everything
the Government does. When asked how they would
improve things? They offer no opinions whatsoever,
no indications of any alternatives - they make no
distinctions between themselves and Labor - only
the lame explanation - "We're not in Government!"
They don't give one reason to the voters as to
why we shouldn't keep the current mob in power!

So what the heck do they stand for these days?

Foxy what do either of the major parties stand for now days?

The libs have been fairly clear that the stimulus package should havde been smaller and more measured but don't seem to have said just what size it should have been. I suspect that I lot would still like to have had something like work choices (but politically it' so on the nose that it's currently a dead issue). Clearly there is not a united front on global warming and I think that is for a variety of reasons.

Labor has made gestures but from where I sit look more like window dressing than a genuine stand, the "Sorry" statement which does not seem to have changed much else, a fix for the environment which seems to be an excuse for a new tax meanwhile Rudd joins All Gore in using a private jet to fly around the world to talk about climate change. Other committments such as access to laptops for certain school students seem to be trickle fed.

I think that they both stand for getting into power or keeping power and the less the voting public really knows about what they stand for the better the chance that they have of doing so.

R0bert

Foxy, RObert here is what I truly think, not support for my team.
Work choices was just a symptom of a government gone bad.
Both labor and Liberal, who cares about the mining party, sorry Nationals, want to reform IR.
Want to increase productivity and loosen up the workplace.
I did not say I like it.
But I do agree, some unions, bought the movement trouble.
Links with American Republican ideas must never be ignored.
Both our Liberals and that other dysfunctional mob Republicans are hell bent on self destruction.
But a true Liberal rump exists, if in both country's it can grow, at present it can not get nominated for seats, it will one day retake government.
My Labor needs good opposition to stay on track.
But look at NSW we once could be proud of our achievements.
I remember the instant the car radio broke the news we had won a seat that said we could rule in our own right.
Me and my union official dancing with joy on the expressway while motorists laughed.
Even the dead carcass of my NSW Labor will rise again, be great again.
Conservatives will too, not without pain, not without dumping the extremist red necks.
Not for at least three elections,not before huge influx of true Liberals.
And in time Barnaby Joyce and his party of self interest and internal confrontation will die on the vine and conservatives will be better for it, maybe not the miners however.

Dear RObert,

You seem to have forgotten the world
economic crisis that could have destroyed
Australia's economy, or the sudden increase of
world wide refugees. These matters needed/need
immediate attention and previous priorities had/have
to take second preference. There is only one purse,
and only so much can be done at any given time.
After all, we are a country of 21 million, not 300 million+
like the US where tax dollars create a larger purse.
And even then for a while they were in dire straights,
compared to Australia's economy.

Also, there are currently - world-wide conferences
that the PM has to attend to represent Australia
so that it wouldn't remain a global backwater.

At least the first steps have been taken by the Labor
Government that Australia was changing, for the better.
The ratification of the Kyoto Protocol and the apology
to the Stolen Generations - has already changed the
Nation, because they've changed the way Australians
understand their relation to each other and their place
in the wider world. Critics have missed what the majority
of the Nation have not.

More could be achieved if it wasn't for the Opposition
constantly criticizing and blocking Government attempts
to implement their election promises.

The Government is following a priority list which their
Cabinet has set. Miracles don't happen over night -
and there will be plenty of time to judge the Governments
achievements in the future. But how will the Opposition
be judged in the present?

With a three year electoral term - it takes at least
two terms for results to show. We kept waiting and
waiting for eleven years for the Howard Administration
to show something positive that would benefit the
community -e.g. hospitals, schools, roads, et cetera -
all they did was salt away the money, increase our
taxes, instead of supporting
essential human services.

Dear Belly,

Thanks for being so open and honest.

Continuing on with only my honest view conservatives are fighting policy's they would put in place if in government.
Yes true I think they have been more than dishonest.
Often.
And that in doing so they are our best Friend.
Polling? not concerned by it , some is from voters who think Labor is too hard on refugees.
Some is from people who are convinced they have not been hard enough.
Conservatives in power would be seen always as hard, but Rudd has no easy task here.
Those 70 odd people on our boat in Indonesian waters, have him up against it.
If he brings them here,now, [he should have first up] he will set another hundred boats sailing for our shores.
If he does not? more Labor defectors to the greens but that is the path he will take.
Xenophobia, intense fear of Muslim isolationism in our city's, right or wrong, is a fact, voters do vote only on such issues.
I however can promise no improvement for conservatives, their fate is still massive defeat, new leadership, and a long way back.
The wolf crying, the lost nature of todays Liberals will not go over night.
Look closely at the things the opposition has opposed, know, have no doubt, they in power would have made some of those things law.

Dear Belly,

I agree the Government does have a difficult
time at the moment - but I'm sure that
things will work out.

As for the Opposition - they simply
have to wake up to themselves and the fact
that just condemnation simply doesn't work.
Voters expect much more.

In any case, there will be plenty of time to
judge both sides in the years ahead.