A carbon tax will not reduce the even the acceleration of carbon emitions,let alone reduce CO2 levels.It will not only be a tax but also a derivative traded as carbon credits,just like all the other Ponzi pyramid schemes,it will push ordinary folk into poverty.

If carbon is so obiviously a poison,then leave it in the ground.No: they want to mine increasing amounts of it,so they can have their taxes and a new derivative market.

The Chinese and Indians will not fall for it.We will increasingly lose industry and employment to them.Why should Australia be the guinea pig in a concept that is so obiviously flawed?

I have a challenge for Kevin Rudd.If he is going to push ahead with this tax,then ALL the proceeds should go towards developing clean energy technologies and giving solar power all residents.

Watch them cough and splutter at this suggestion,since the elites will not then benefit.

Ajay,
like it or not (I don't) economics are at play here there will be a reduction in tax take or an increase in demand on expenditure.
You change the world economics And I'll agree with your challenge as being reasoned.

Nothing is ever that simple with 6.something billion people all demanding something.

Old saying..."if it's that simple somebody would have done it already however if it looks too simple it probably is." Wofe

There was an interview on TV with the manager of a carbon credits
trading company in Sydney.
He was very pleased to tell us how we will be able to trade in
futures and derivatives and have all that money making fun with
the indulgences.

The Russians I am sure will be in there to make another killing, but
this time out of us instead of the Europeans.

Will they never learn.

All this while the worry about the wrong problem.

Bazz,I lament at how stupid the West has become.The majority of our pop is entertained by delusions of achieving hollywood glamour.We have no concept of what is real.I've read numbers of $125 trillion of total debt.Every person in the USA in debt to the tune of $485,000.00

Soon the US $ will totally collapse and then the serious monetary collapse will destroy more real jobs and productivity.We are looking at possible anarchy.How do we stop it?

Yes Arjay, I am afraid you are right, the US$ will fall.
Already there is a quiet scramble to get out of the US$ by China and
the OPEC countries.
I had not realised that the per head debt had got that high in the US.
Is our debt around $2000 per head ? Big difference.

The problem will become very much worse as they need to spend very
big money to change their energy source to renewables in many different
forms. That is going to cost really big money which they may not have,
except by printing it.
China has tied up so much oil and natural gas on long term contracts
that US will wake up one day and not be able to buy what they need.
We will just be scrambling for the dregs.

an⋅ar⋅chy  /ˈænərki/

Use anarchy in a Sentence

–noun 1. a state of society without government or law.

2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.

3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.

4. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.

Origin:
1530–40;..(< MF anarchie or ML anarchia)
< Gk, anarchía lawlessness, lit., lack of a leader,
equiv. to ánarch(os) leaderless
(an- an- 1 + arch(ós) leader + -os adj.

anyhow carbon tax is a scam...to give taxes direct to big business..but the serfs are asleep...thats why our leaderrs permitted 911...to put us to sleep...but its all a scam

http://www.checktheevidence.com/cms/

Arjay, has the phrase "quit while you're ahead" ever occurred to you?

I'm in absolute agreement with your position on the monetization of carbon. In fact I have said on a couple of occasions that a remake of the 1967 movie The Graduate would have the following dialogue:

"Mr. McGuire: I want to say two words to you. Just two words.
Benjamin: Yes, sir.
Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?
Benjamin: Yes, I am.
Mr. McGuire: Carbon Trading."

To the point where I am truly appalled at the naivety of the sheep who go along with the bizarrely twisted logic behind it all, completely oblivious to the lurking blokes with red braces, yellow ties and chalk-striped suits, waiting to relieve them of their wallets.

But then you go and spoil it all. What makes you do it?

>>I've read numbers of $125 trillion of total debt.Every person in the USA in debt to the tune of $485,000.00<<

Thanks, by the way, for including the cents in that calculation, it makes all the difference.

But a few moments reflection would tell you that the number in question is absolute garbage.

For a start, to whom do they owe this money?

Riddle me that, Batman.

You have absolutely no grasp of mathematics, money or economics. So stick with the righteous indignation, kiddo, and stay well away from dubious information sources.

Pericles I've seen the figure $125 trillion written a few times from different sources.I question it myself because it sounds too outrageous.The US is in very serious strife and are likely to stupid things.No one really knows the debt or the extent of the potential derivative collapse.We just know it is enormous.

dear pericule..[robin]..the govt owes..the fed reserve...if govt..'owes'...its..the people/..tax payers..who pay...

but..we are in/far from...'normal'...times...the fed..was taken from govt by the bankers..in 1933...who orded the/our gold..be seized..as surity..for outstanding govt overdraft...in affect govt's..been bankrupt since then

govt constantly draws from..the unlimited fiat funds of the fed/reserve...govt gives the fed..a bond to underwrite it...and in good times..the fed bankers sell/on..the bond...now..the fed is buying back bonds..

every penny of tax..goes to the fed..as repayment...its stange you make claims..to not know this...i thought you better informed../.but govt surrenderd the right..to issue..its own currency

i suggest you catch up..with the scam..by reading..'the creature from jeckle island'..that explains much/naming the names...

see the fed..exclusive franchise..[to issue..'fiat-money'..]..means these..'american dollars'..arnt national debt...but evidence of foreign/international occupation...

america briefly issued..its own debt free notes..[they are green]..but bankers soon told them to stop it..[so pres/ford did]

see multi/nationalist..coorperate bankers..are subverting govt..from serving..under..the constituited/..constitutional law...into the laws of civil contract....where its people's/assets/treasure/estates..are the surity..underwriting the bankruptsy

..as well as/looting its people dry..via income tax..[also introduced at that/time...reading our own hansards/at this..same time...it's a global scam..

the hansard debates/..are very revealing...the big debate wasnt about bankers..stealing/control of the fed...but the..'tax on income'..the bankers demanded..to pay off/intrest...somehow..weve never paid off the principle

the big..good thing for this is..govt has retained the right of seignorage..[the right to mint coin...gold and silvercoin..are the only constitutionally/legal money...bankers only made.;.their debt paper/legal tender...but thats..under fiat...by degree...or perogative...because the debitor..is standing..in dishonour

despite bankers having finianced..every way ever..[the 300 million dead from war...can be blamed on the bankers...who get countries into debt...via war..to loot its people...

the first thing that disappeared...in iraq..was the gold..held in its vaults...also the real reason..for iraq was..it wanted to trade in euro's..[not yanki dollars..

noting germany is demanding its gold back...but/..fed leased it..to their fellow bankers/mates...for pennies..so bankers..could sell it and they did..france caught on to the scam..[they got the german gold...china seeks gold/as well..

it dont like..all these yanki dollars...because one franchise sets its..price/exchange rate..and only/ever/need only repay..in ..fiat..effectivly..hemp-paper...

[total cost of production/..for a note..is 7 cents each.....so their equity...lol..is great..at about what banruptsy/recievers get

AUDIT THE FEDS

Arjay the figures I could find are much lower. Mostly around the 11 trillion but I've not quite worked out just what the covers. I also wonder about the ratio of debt to asset, many families might have a large debt for a mortgage but the current value of the house is worth more. Others will have a large mortgage and a house that's worth a lot less.

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2008/08/chart-of-day-21-aug-2008-total-us-debt.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/business/worldbusiness/08yuan.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/02/AR2009010202322.html

R0bert

ok robert i done some searching
http://www.pgpf.org/about/nationaldebt/

"How exactly does a $56.4 trillion bill add up?"

We know that the federal government..carries both publicly held debt and debt for money..it has borrowed from itself.>>>the fed is not itself>>..Together,..these sums are closing in on $11 trillion.

This is the figure..most commonly cited as our.."national debt,"..but actually,..that's only the start of the REAL national debt.

Right now,..you are carrying a burden of about $184,000...That is each and every American's share..of the US government's approximated $56.4 trillion in current obligations.

And every year..in which no down payments..or reforms are made to these obligations,..the total grows by $2 trillion to $3 trillion – or $6,600 to $10,000 per person..on autopilot.

How exactly does this $56.4 trillion bill add up?..First,..there are the federal government's known liabilities..that it is legally obliged to fulfill.

These include publicly held debt,..military and civilian pensions and retiree health benefits...As of September 30, 2008, these liabilities added up to $13.5 trillion.

Then there are various commitments..and contingencies/..contractual requirements..that the government is expected to fulfill when,..and if specified conditions are met...

So where does the remaining $43 trillion or so come from?

That's what the government has promised to pay in Social Security and Medicare benefits in excess of related revenues. As of January 1, 2008, current and promised future Social Security benefits amounted to $6.6 trillion. And between Medicare's three programs (hospital insurance, outpatient, and prescription drug), current and future promised Medicare benefits amounted to $36.3 trillion.

That’s how you get to $56.4 trillion...And remember:..every year in which no down payments or reforms are made to any of the obligations above,..this total grows by $2 trillion to $3 trillion.

Stick with www.pgpf.org to keep track of how much you owe.

reading the graph...here
http://wallstreetpit.com/10720-american-debt-falls-for-first-time-since-1954

note..top graph growth rate..then under it...see the fed graph[spike]

Arjay says:

<<I have a challenge for Kevin Rudd.If he is going to push ahead with this tax,then ALL the proceeds should go towards developing clean energy technologies and giving solar power [to] all residents.

Watch them cough and splutter at this suggestion, since the elites will not then benefit.>>

Spot on, Arjay. Congratulations for expressing it so concisely.

I guess this 'benefitting of the elites' is behind the desperate moves to sell off publicly-owned electricity generation as quickly as possible. Do you get the sense that the Federal government is doing its best to put Chevron in the box seat in this respect?

Who is/are going to be the ultimate major beneficiaries of the $450M already committed to Hot Dry Rock geothermal development, for example? My money is on it being Chevron, across the board in gas, gas to liquids, gas fired electricity, and geothermal electricity. An oil giant ensuring that it will also control the market for future electric transportation energy.

Goodbye off-peak electricity tariffs. Watch the price of electricity go through the roof.

I get the feeling Kevin Rudd is already committed to something like this scenario.

correction on quote that congress can buy back the fed for 44.4 billion....its actually The U.S. Congress has the option to buy back the FED at $450 million..

noting the current fiat is actually forgeign instrument...thus it can be taxed under the tarrif acts[1933]...under the fed reserve act of 1913..

this needs be done under right of seignorage...12 cold coins to the total face value of 450 billion...and the govt debt is wiped out...
or if not wiped out...at minimum..the intrest on it..is
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&rls=MEDA%2CMEDA%3A2008-36%2CMEDA%3Aen-GB&q=The+US+Congress+has+the+option+to+buy+back+the+FED+at+%24450+millions+&btnG=Search&meta=

one under god I have my doubts about including longer term policy costs which the $56.4 trillion figure does. There is a lot of scope in that to change policy. Doing so has a different set of costs but it's not money currently owed to offshore interests.

At the same time the figures I've seen don't seem to include private debt. There is also the issue of the difference between debt and assets. Does the US government own significant assets which could be sold to offset some debt? There seem to be vast area's of land tied up in government land (millitary reserves etc) but how much of that land is valuable for much else I don't know.

Even if it's a valid representation $56.4 trillion is still very different to $125 trillion.

R0bert

Forrest Gumpp,thanks for the support.I think we all need to take this to the media ad issue a national challenge to both the major parties.We have them in a corner.If they are telling the truth then they will agree to all the proceeds of this carbon tax going towards alternate energy alternatives.

I suspect Kevin wants to pay off the stimulus debt via carbon taxes.He does not want to increase the GST since this will cost him an election.

Robert,I think it's going be very difficult to find out what the real debt both private and public is.There are trillions in derivatives not backed by real productivity that are still being traded in the system.This derivative system is destroying real businesses and jobs in the West.All these bailouts are supporting a flawed financial systems.

The US Fed is bailing out all it's Ponzi scamming mates.There is no such thing as too big to fail,since a business based on a lie,is not worth saving.

We have to do something. Everyone is talking about pollution, global warming etc. but when it touch your own pockets than most of us change point of view.