Examinator,

Masters in Commerce. But I'm not making any complaints or blaming teachers for my career choices. I'm pointing out that your teachers challenges are consistent with most other professions.

I'm not terribly fond of unions for exactly this reason. While companies are struggling to keep afloat, people are losing wages and jobs, the teachers union is complaining about a 4% payrise.
But even so when I sat down this year with my boss I knew that if everyone got a pay rise, the company and the Australian economy would not benefit. So since I could only control my situation, I asked for no payrise. Ironically, I found out later, the company wasn't doing payrises anyway. My boss was amused. He appreciated the jesture.

The teacher debate is easy to fix. All teachers and teacher advocates seem to indicate that teachers work lots of hours.
So, they can work a standard 8am-5pm day, 5 days per week, 48 weeks per year. It should be no additional work for all those teachers already working well over that amount of hours. And it would settle the debate.

Belly
Sorry if I misread you.

I was objecting to the stereotyping rabble that tends to attack ALL anything. Usually with out evidence that their criticisms apply to all members. Or that all members of the group support the criticised actions willingly.

I don't accept painting any group of individuals with some broad tar brush. To my mind this is throwing the baby out with the bath water. i.e. because there are 'erks' therefore they're all 'erks' mentality. This tends to, as I said, offend the good.

Regarding anti union. To me the unions, political parties, governments, businesses are non human entities. They/their practices the are amalgams/compromises/deals etc. and represents the organisation not individuals per se therefore fair game.

However personalising them and saying that all unionists/bureaucrats etc. (people) are erks because some are, is unfair and annoy me too.
e.g. Wild statements like "Anna Bligh is an idiot" is a broad tarring and unsustainable, she clearly isn't. One is entitled to say that they don't like her leadership or public image et al but should be prepared to justify it...the first is plain prejudice/bigotry the latter is an opinion. I respect opinions that have some thought in them but not knee jerk prejudices.

Belly old mate, I'm a humanist that simply means (to me) attack what a person SAYS...me included but don't dehumanise groups of people by broad stroke tarring.

I am simply the countering to emotional/irrational prejudices. Clearly there are too many of them already and they tend to be simply reinforce the 'no thought required' principal or life.

Finally if some others can fall out of their trees spouting absurdly overstated/irrational drivel and claim the right to do so in the interest of true free speech. Then why aren't I allowed to attack what they say without being personally insulted, as some others regularly do?

Burbs,
I can understand your perspective. See my response to Belly.

Conversation on OLO are read by a variety of abilities so if what follows is old hat then I ask for your indulgence.

>Organisational theory clearly demonstrates that the primary purpose of any organisation is it's own survival therefore the individual specific interests become subordinate.The union therefore is compelled to increase benefits etc to justify their existence.

> From group dynamics perspective; Have you ever tried to change a union's direction with the standard organisational internal power interests? Good luck.
Even my one man campaign to introduce perspective to some topics has rendered me a marked man consider what happens when one works with an a tight group in an isolated environment like a school Truly an introspective environment, the peer pressure is extraordinary. .

> Capitalist theory tells us that people will go to where the money is.
Interstate have the same problems with not enough good teachers. It therefore follows that the interstate will snap up our best leaving us with the nine to fivers and the bludger mentality. The union is using this vulnerability to push for more benefits (aka parity).

> Culturally condition to be selfish and self indulgent so the claim is with in this context.

Notwithstanding the above that still neither justifies the claim in a the current fiscal nor does it sanction the extremes at either end.
To me if its extreme then it's probably not in the interests of the majority

It may be examinator that unions exist for unions.
Not in my view.
I think acting in the best interests of individual members is the only way to conduct myself.
And it is apparent they the members agree.
much, most of my work is fixing problems for single members or small groups.
Today is a non work day yet I have had more than twenty calls sent ten e mails some to groups of twenty.
Hating or disliking unions is in fashion, it goes hand in hand with lack of understanding.
Unions are not all powerful, do not control the world.
My quote was squarely aimed at our new contributor.
I see every thing I highlighted there.
I am not unlike a roadside car repair man, my phone rings when some one wants help, union dues are much like insurance for your car.
Nice to have if you smash it.
Groups other than unions get together in self interest, bosses have unions too.
But blind dislike is uninformed.
Holding opinions that are wrong is not proof of any thing other than being wrong
regards

Burbs
The teacher debate is easy to fix. All teachers and teacher advocates seem to indicate that teachers work lots of hours.
So, they can work a standard 8am-5pm day, 5 days per week, 48 weeks per year. It should be no additional work for all those teachers already working well over that amount of hours. And it would settle the debate.

What a great idea. How can they possibbly argue with this? It's a 'win win' for both sides of the argument and, any teachers who claim that their workload is to heavy, should find releife as the teachers that currently only work 9 to 3, and that's it, will relieve the workload simply by working their additional manditory hours.

Boy I will beat they would pull thier heads in real quick if they got a wiff of this.

rehctub

<< .. teachers that currently only work 9 to 3 .. >>

I've been around teachers for a long time and I've yet to meet one anywhere who only works from 9-3.

Perhaps you could give us some statistics and references on this mythical cohort you've plucked from the air. If not, I suggest you pull your head in and confine your authoritative pronouncements to the field of butchering where you might just have a shred of credibility.