With meat substitution being on the media once again, just how do the general shoppers think when buying their meats.

Take a side of lamb. From $3.99 Kg up to $11.99 Kg.

Whole rump from $4.99Kg up to $12.99Kg.

Lean mince (bulk buy) from $5.00 kg up to $12.00 kg.

When buying the 'cheap meats', do shoppers actually think they are buying quality meats and that the other butchers are 'ripp-offs'.

Are shoppers aware that cheap lean mince often contains either; bull meat, ofals and water, or all of the above.

Are they expecting to buy a tender whole rump for say $4.99 Kg and it not be pumped full of water.

What do consumers expect when there is rent, power, loans, wages, compo, super, compliance costs and god forbid, profits, to be covered when choosing cheap meats. Do they think it just fell off the back of a truck and that's why it's cheap.

Or, are they buying cheap meat knowing that if it's tough, at least it cost less than stewing meat so who cares.

Do they think farmers have a change of heart and sell their cattle or lambs for half price.

I would love to know just how these 'cheap meat shopper' think.

Clearly I can only talk about those I know.

The short answer is No! They don't expect TOP quality meat cheap.
However, those I know to expect not to be conned (not told)...caveat emptor is only fair when the reasonable man test can be applied.

SPECIFICALLY As a reasonably informed individual with more reading that most busy mums and not being a butcher I didn't know that there was "pumped full of water" contained "offal" in the meat. Most of us just figured that it was simply lesser quality or some special buy from wholesalers etc.

Your criticism of the average customer is simply unfair, of course finding this out is of course a shock.
We don't know the industry tricks, half ,not told truths that go on in your trade.

In truth their not supposed to know because if they did they might not buy and some (low income, pensioners etc)have little choice). They are faced with that or substituting meat or buying elsewhere.

I figure you're talking about ch 7/9 current affair beat up shows. A few fact plenty of hype Zzzzz.

Then again providing it's fit for human consumption nothing much has or will change.

Butchers shouldn't complain if their marketing tactics are exposed.
These sort of tactics tacitly encourage these false customer assumptions.

The real problem is finding the balance between marketing and the truth. Some marketers tend to forget that in favour of self interests.

PS no one in business has a RIGHT to do so at all costs. This is clearly a grey area.

What you are talking about is illegal. Offal is pure colesterol, that does not make lean mince. No matter what you pay for meat, that does not make it any more edible. The proof is in the eating. The prices you quote comes from supermarkets, and they can sell for what ever they like. The pumping of meat is called massarging, this is more likely to happen with chicken, not beef. Who put the roo in the stew. [1980's ]
There's nothing better than a nice fresh road kill kangaroo.

I'm prepared to pay more for organic or bio-dynamic meat, as personally I consider that the only true measure of good quality.

I wouldn't pay that same sort of price to a butcher whose meat more than likely contains a similar chemical load to that sold at supermarkets, no matter how tender or authentic the meat might be.

Buying meat at supermarkets, I agree, only supports bad practice, but many people have little choice.

Like Bronwyn we can afford to buy organic meat from a local farmer. Many farmers are now selling at the gate or direct to households. And the animals are grass fed, no hormones and in most cases chemical free.

Aged pensioners probably don't think too much about it they just buy what they can afford. As another poster mentioned, there are laws that dictate what constitutes mince. Just as a Beef Pie has to have a certain content of beef otherwise it has to be sold as a Meat Pie.

If the workplace that you seek rehctub was to ever come into play, where people were no longer assured of the security of their job (sack at will) there would be a lot less people buying meat.

When the middlemen and supermarkets get their pound of flesh there is not much meat in it for anyone else.

rechtub, I agree gone back to the butcher this time for good my meat is better dearer but better and he is getting to know my taste.
He has not asked me how I vote and we do not talk politics.
Those chain stores are not value sell every cut soon I expect to find a pack of tail tags for sale.
dog bones kill dogs too as it is 80% fat butcher gets real stuff puts it aside.
You get what you pay for my butcher at least cares about me.
As I eat little meat I want and get the best.
Any thing better than a sausage sandwich?
no nothing .

What you are talking about is illegal. Offal is pure colesterol, that does not make lean mince

Not true, heart for instance is pure red and is often used to make fatty meats appear lean. It is also widely used for meat pies.

The pumping of meat is called massarging, this is more likely to happen with chicken, not beef.

Sorry to correct you but massaging is not pumping.

Pumping is performed by liquid being 'pumped' into the meat tissue, while 'massaging' is performed by meat being placed in a 'sealed vessel', along with liquid and massaged under a vacume for up to 24 hours.

The pumping that had been expossed usually happens with beef.

Now while beef will hold approx 12% additional liquid, and chicken around 9%, these 'cowboys' are adding up to 50%.

If the workplace that you seek rehctub was to ever come into play, where people were no longer assured of the security of their job (sack at will) there would be a lot less people buying meat.
Some people are just plain 'THICK'!

When are you ever going to get your head around the fact that I don't treat staff poorley?

My business and unfair dissmissal are two different issues so please don't tage me as a bad boss.

Belly
I eat very little meat myself and my favourites are crumbed steak and snags. Tonight I am about to enjoy a huge 'black Angus' rib on the barby.

Cheers

When I go and buy meat I want what's advertised. Any suggestion that I'm expected to know what's in meat BASED ON COST really really p*sses me RIGHT off.

HOW DARE the industry, or dodgy butchers rather, advertise something and adjust the content based on cost. That should be illegal. If I found that out about a butcher you'd never see me again.

...and butchers wonder why people go with the supermarkets...

Hey can I just ask why the meat packets you by in the supermarket that have a plastic tray and cling wrap over the top puff up?

Never happened in NZ.

As for cheap meat, when broke you can only buy cheap if you want meat.

Huh!! Some people are thick. Not very nice rehctub. In the naughty corner for you. :)

If I have misunderstood you I will apologise but I am pretty sure of your own statements that employers should be able to sack staff at anytime without recourse or cause. Are you now denying this?

All I said, as we have discussed previously - be careful what you wish for because you would see a big downturn in spending particularly meat. Job security is vital to business just as it is to labour.

To your initial query of how cheap meat shoppers think. Here's my insight as a cheap meat shopper.

I expect what I pay for.

I have no idea how to look at meat and tell good from bad quality. And I don't really want to know. I don't think I should have to have a butcher's knowledge to work out if I am getting what is on the label.
If I but "Budget" rump I expect it to be a bit tougher, a bit lower quality. But, if I buy "premium" rump I would expect it to be better quality, and this is also not always the case.
So, in general I buy budget cuts, because I don't trust that a higher price always equals a better piece of meat. At least if I am paying budget prices, I can guarantee I am getting budget meat.
But unless it says on the label "pumped full of water" or "contains offal" I wouldn't expect this.

Maybe butchers could just sell meat for a reasonable price without having to employ tricks, label things incorrectly and basically try to scam the public. If I could trust butchers, I would probably try some of the more expensive cuts.

Dear rehctub,

I'm like Belly - I've got a local butcher that I
trust and he knows my taste.

I may pay more - but my family has never scrimped
on food - other things - yes - but not food.

I like good cuts - for example - a pork roast -
has to be Pork Scotch, steaks are tenderloin,
(scotch fillets), and even for my beef strogonov,
the meat has to be the best - other wise the taste
suffers.

Our butcher also makes the most superb sausages -
ideal for barbeques - he's actually won
awards for them.

Cheap meats? I prefer to think that quality matters
in what you buy to eat - and I try to economise in
other ways.

I have a mate who is a butcher in one of those large shops starting with W or C.
The meat arrives in box's not carcase and while some cuts are ok, believe me a good butcher is better.
I have eaten for cost, gee half my life, but in truth diet or not if you could still get them cold mutton flaps corned are a dream from my childhood the only meat we could buy once.
Now it is sausages and scotch filet's and just maybe some thing like that black Angus of rechtubs.
I did forget the once cheap side of hogget or even lamb it once was a cheap feed and on my weekend return home from work in Sydney I took one or the other home to the tribe[ family].
Most of us would have bought hogget under the brand lamb its common in shonky butchers shops.

If you are talking a steak or a sausage then fair enough buy a damn good one but other than that I can honestly make a cheap piece of anything, yum. Probably like I bet Daves mum could. Cheap fatty mince makes the bestest bolognaise and any old chook can be turned in to a delicious korma.

But I was broke for a few years and it was necessary to acquire some skills when it came to cheap or starve. Most of the week was vegetarian fair.

Do aboriginals have “boil ups” Dave? Maoris do ‘em, cabbage and pigs head, my boy loves it. The meat in NZ would cost about two dollars.

Pelican
If I have misunderstood you I will apologise but I am pretty sure of your own statements that employers should be able to sack staff at anytime without recourse or cause. Are you now denying this?

No, but if you look at my previous posts on IR you will see that all I ever want is the same rights to choose workers just as workers can choose jobs.

Foxy; Our butcher also makes the most superb sausages -
ideal for barbeques - he's actually won
awards for them.

That's great to hear, I to have won awards for my snags. I am very proud of them and so are my staff. We only sell the very best of everything and it is a pleasure to sell good meat.

Yes PP; Maoris do ‘em, cabbage and pigs head, Don't forget the 'watercress', I sell heaps of heads and pork bones as well.

A good nutrisious ;'cheap' feed.

Belly, corned lamb flaps are still available for about $4.00 per kilo. A great 'cheap' feed. And yes, you most likely have been sold hogget as lamb but not at my shop. My side of lamb will cost you about $11 per kilo and being Tassie,which is hormone and steriod free it's worth every cent.

It sounds rechtub that yours is the shop I would buy at if I live nearby.
And it looks like your shop is much like the one I use.
Not for a second saying I am rich or even well off, but after a lifetime of being one of a very big crowd, my family I live alone and can buy what I want.
Strange but true I will find my mutton flaps and over eat them, but still on a diet I will pay for them twice.
My memory's are full of the very cheapest cuts as a kid those sides of mutton I took home on the Cooma mail train all those years ago bought smiles to my family.
Mutton and pork ribs once a near throw away are now top dollar stuff.
Sheep shanks too we have learned to eat cuts we never considered much.
In the bush you can get good service loyalty and understanding from your butcher, I drive past ten shops and 70 klm to my bloke he knows it at and it pays for me and him.

Belly
Mutton and pork ribs once a near throw away are now top dollar stuff.
Sheep shanks too we have learned to eat cuts we never considered much.

Yes, you can blame Jamie Oliver for this one. Until he, and others alike started to cook these cuts, shanks in particular were sold as 'dog food'.

Oganic meat is another grey area.

Orgaic meat producers have got it wrong, in such that their meats arrive in a colourful box with 'organic' written all over it. It is un-mistackably 'organic', yet, you open the box and the meat is in a plain bag.

This is something I have taken up with the orgainc society but they appear disinterested and it is this 'back to front' marketing that leads to subsitution.

I won't sell organic for this reason, instead, I sell tasmanian beef and lamb as it is guaranteed 'steroid' and 'hormone ' free.

Orgainc chickens are better packaged however 'a chook is a chook', appearence wise, once the feathers are off and these to are often subsituted. In fact, I have been abussed in the past when asked the price of organic chickens, as the abuser often says they can buy organic chickens for $6 to $8 per kg. If they are silly enough to believe that, then I don't want to serve them anyway.

For the record, if you pay less than $14.00 per kilo for a whole organic chicken, I would bet you are being ripped. They cost me $11 per Kg to buy, but they are the real thing.

I could not post last night I had used my ten.
But agree you just do not know what you are buying with organic.
If some one can tell me if it is possible to surgically stop a rooster crowing I will not be short of chickens.
Come to think of it if we could do that many organic chooks would be around even country villages do not like that sound personally I love it

Any seller of authentic organic food can easily demonstrate the source for their produce.

My local butcher buys from well-established organic farms, I was already aware of these suppliers before I started shopping there.

And the quality of the meat speaks for itself. He also does his own curing of meats and his sausages are made by a local from the same organic meat. I love going there, because I can rely on the quality as well as the wide selection. I am not restricted to beef, pork, lamb or chicken but there is kangaroo and wallaby as well. When I first started shopping there 8 eights years ago, he only sold organic free-range chicken, but has since built up a solid business specialising in organic, free-range products.

Yes, I pay a little more, but purchase smaller quantities and the prices are competitive with certain monopolies although more expensive than the average butcher.

On the rare occasion I have bought supermarket meat, the difference in flavour and quality has been so obvious, I make sure I am organised to buy from my local butcher.

If I am not so financial (my income fluctuates) I go to the markets - quality there is superb and much cheaper than supermarkets.

Yes, I too buy from an organic butcher who in all respects, bar the kangaroo and wallaby, is very similar to that described by Fractelle. It's a well-known local business and the meat is sourced locally, so that anyone who wanted to check on the source for themselves could easily do so.

There's a natural foodstore close by where I can buy organic fruit, vegetables and food products, the majority of which are also sourced locally. Again, I totally trust the authenticity of this store too.

Occasionally, I'll buy organic food or free-range eggs from a supermarket, but I ceratinly don't have the same degree of trust when I do. Funny about that!

Well I am pleased to see that most of you appreciate quality meats and are prepared to pay the extra for it.

By the way, I think the definition of 'free range eggs' is one SqM of space per hen, but hey are still not set free to roam as the name would imply.

Belly
My script is running pretty much true to form with my predictions of Eels and Boncos getting though this weekend. What a fitting send off for our deserting coach!

Anyhow, next weeks game against the storm will in my opinion be 'the grand final', just played a week early.

I'm still thinking Broncos v Parramata, but it's tough to pick from here.

Cheers to a great year for the saints!

I let my butcher down this weekend rechtub.
Saw a mate in another shop and went in.
He and I just found out he has Parkinson's could not walk past him.
A 75 year old butcher was serving him his weekly sausages,
And my mate said Belly these are the best sausages I ever ate.
Weird as it sounds this butcher in conversation said he worked in the Sydney butcher shop I was born in, my mum was visiting her family upstairs!
How could I resist, $9 a kg I walked out with 2kg and 24 snags, they are great 8 feeds of three two grilled for me one for my dogs.
Saints beat themselves not unhappy with the year but a problem has existed long before our coach came here.
he remains the best and come on bloke he did not desert you he was fighting for a long time give him a fair go.
Melbourne, no pleasure in it for me, will be hard to beat forget bulldogs and parra?
let us see.

Belly

I am over the moon that the Saints won, up against the Cats next week - Aussie Rules: RULES!

Rehctub

People are not as stupid as you seem to think, BTW it is not difficult to source true free range eggs.

http://www.freerangefarmers.com.au/

*I sell tasmanian beef and lamb as it is guaranteed 'steroid' and 'hormone ' free.*

Rehctub, I think you might have fallen for a bit of a marketing
ploy on that one.

Firstly of course, all meat would contain some hormones, in terms
of them occuring naturally in both males and females.

So what the Tasmanians would be flogging is the claim that they
don't feed them any steroids or hormones.

Now I could be wrong, but in my years of reading farming literature,
I've never come across any lamb producers feeding steroids or
hormones to lambs, there would be no reason to do so. If you really
want faster growth due to a bit of extra testosterone, just leave
the testicles on. The result is a bit leaner meat.

Most lamb in Australia is still produced directly off pasture, so
they eat nothing but grass and clover.

Many lamb producers now commonly also have a feedlot paddock, which
means they stick a few grain feeders in there, so that lambs can
eat oats and other grains, as well as pasture. That boosts muscle
glycogen levels, fllls em up with energy and you avoid that dark
cutting meat, as you get from stressed and underfed animals.

A few also feed pellets, but even they don't contain steroids or
hormones.

Buy the cheap vacuum packed whole rump or sirloin. Store in the fridge for a month unopened (the vacuum seal must not be broken). Open, wipe off the blood, trim and slice (across the grain) for immediate use and for packing in freezer proof bags for the deep freeze. As with all products, after defrosting do not re-freeze.

Refrigerator aged this way and the meat will be tender, but avoid the bulk packs with darker yellow fat because that comes from geriatric stock.

I would hazard a (good) guess that the cheaper rump and sirloin comes from grass fed 'free range' stock. So you will get your competitive price and organic by more reliable means than a promise.

For really lean meat, do what the old people used to do, slow casserole or stew and skim any fat before thickening.

Cornflower

That's very interesting about the vacuum packed meat, however, why do you think it is free range? I am always looking for ways to save money.

On cheaper cuts - my favourite kitchen utensil is my pressure cooker. Forget the slow cooker - I can come home and put together a tasty, nutritious casserole in an hour using the pressure-cooker. Once you learn to time the veggies (they take only seconds) and you can thicken the liquid using flour - the pressure cooker ensures that you don't get that raw floury taste. It is brilliant. I also cook up large quantities as a base or stock and divide up for freezing to which I can add further ingredients. Terrific for curries as well, because you can brown the onions, meat, saute the curry paste before sealing in.

There are a number of home delivered meat suppliers where I live - not all of them are certified organic but they do not use hormones and they do not gas their meat or add those chemical substances to make them look pink (not sure of what they are called).

There are also two organic/biodynamic suppliers and a few butchers who source a small organic supply.

Most of them cryovac their meat which gives a longer shelf life and of course you can freeze.

The irony is that overall they are not dearer than the supermarket on most products. There is no middleman.

One of them charges $12.50kg for lamb and I have paid much more than this in the supermarkets in overpriced Canberra. This is for all cuts. The only downside, if one was looking for one, would be you have to buy in bulk 1/4 or 1/2 a lamb.

Fractelle

If the cattle were specially conditioned the meat would be dearer. The cheap meat is grass fed, free range.

Pressure cookers can be useful but timing and adding as you go is critical if everything isn't to end up the same texture and same taste. Maybe you have mastered the art and maybe you have a few pressure cookers too.

For info, top restaurants age the meat as I have described. Of course they also buy grain fed, finished beef which is dearer.

Cornflower

I will investigate your claims about vacuum packed meat being grass fed - I can see the logic in meat being cheaper if not conditioned in feedlots.

Your point about pressure-cookers is taken; there is an art, timing is crucial and the results worth it.

PS

I only have the one pressure-cooker - I think cooking appeals to my inner chemist.

Dear FR
People are not as stupid as you seem to think

Am I missing something or are you the stupid one. Where have I claimed that all people are stupid.

Yabby
*I sell tasmanian beef and lamb as it is guaranteed 'steroid' and 'hormone ' free
Fair point on the lamb, however, gormones and steroids are banned in meat production in Tassie, that's what I mean.

I will investigate your claims about vacuum packed meat being grass fed - I can see the logic in meat being cheaper if not conditioned in feedlots.

For the record, feed loting is not always a dearer alternative, in fact, many producers now feed lot as it can be a cost effective method as you know you will turn your meat out in 55 to 100 day.

This is not always the case withe padock fed as it always depends on the condition of your padock.

Just for the record, I don't think there is anything wrong with cheaper meats, so long as the consumer is aware of what they are buying and they don't have unrealistic expectations.

rehctub: << For the record, feed loting is not always a dearer alternative, in fact, many producers now feed lot as it can be a cost effective method as you know you will turn your meat out in 55 to 100 day. >>

For the record, feedlots are a blight on the meat industry. They are cruel to the cattle, environmentally disastrous and exist for the sole purpose of making otherwise lean meat fatty (and thus apparently more money for the producer).

You really wouldn't want to live next door, or downstream from one.

Yellow fat is from cow meat, worn out milkers. Feedlotting is for finishing so called prime beef, which adds to the cost. Vaccume packaging allows meat to mature and tenderize for a period of six weeks, at refrigerator temps. After this period the meat is meant to be eaten or frozen. Never buy a package with a loose vacume seal. The worst thing with meat from cattle now is, the cattle were bred to have meat marbeling thats why they respond to feedlotting so well. The fat is distributed right through the meat. There is no fat layer to cut off.
Stick with a jersy cow rump and you will never go wrong. [ do not cook with oil use a little water and low temp. ]

Rehtcub

<< Just for the record, I don't think there is anything wrong with cheaper meats, so long as the consumer is aware of what they are buying and they don't have unrealistic expectations. >>

I believe we have established that the posters to OLO are a canny lot regarding their meat purchases.

CJ Morgan your point about feed-lots is spot-on - well said.

<< MLA calls for less stress on feedlot cattle

Tuesday, 15/09/2009...

"After they've been feed-lotted, then when they go to saleyards, it's probably important that we always keep those animals in the same social mob right through to the slaughter chain," he says.

"As soon as you have stress in an animal prior to slaughter, the glycogen levels get depleted and they become dark cutters and tough.">>

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/200909/s2686277.htm

Of course instead we could just disband feed-lotting altogether. Perhaps Rechtub could enlighten us on how to avoid meat that has been processed via the feed lot. Now that would be useful.

*Perhaps Rechtub could enlighten us on how to avoid meat that has been processed via the feed lot. Now that would be useful*

Thats quite easy Fractelle, just go to the supermarket and buy the
dark cutting meat!

Not all feedlots are bad, many farmers have paddocks with hay and
grain feeders, which they call feedlots. There is still shade and
space etc. From there those cattle are sold direct weight and grade,
without ever going to a saleyard, which avoids all the stress.

It is that grain feeding which fills up muscles with glycogen and
as the animals don't spend all day walking around, looking for food,
but sit down and chew the cud alot of the day, meat quality improves.

I can see that with lambs coming in from pasture that might not be
ideal any more, due to the time of year etc. It takes them a week
or two to change the rumen bacteria and adjust, then slowly they
fill up with energy. After 3-4 weeks they have so much energy, they
are doing little jumps in the air and spend alot of time playfully
trying to bang each other :)

I often add a bit of extra magnesium to the mineral mix, which
helps to quell anxiety (as it does with humans) so they snooze
and eat, chew the cud of play the fool with one another.

Those large feedlots that exist in Qld, are mostly for meat going
to Japan, Korea etc, where they insist on long fed grain beef.
Personally I think that those cattle should be given shelter and
a bit more space, but that is just me.

The Japanese insist on marbled meat, indeed that is what their
Waygu breed is all about and what they pay big money for.

Vacuum packing excludes air to control harmful bacteria.

You can keep the vacuum packed for up to four months at fridge temps I believe although we only keep it for four to six weeks before breaking it up and deep freezing.

Maybe a butcher could comment on max storage in Cryovac at fridge temps.

Cornflower
Maybe a butcher could comment on max storage in Cryovac at fridge temps.

There is a lot of confusion over cry-o-vac meats, most of which has been put in place by un-knowledgable butchers themselves.

COV generally has a shelf life of 8 to 12 weeks, provided there have been a number of criticle steps followed during processing and storage.

This does not apply to meats that have been COV'ed by butchers. Max shelf life is only possible if the processing is performed at the abbs under strict conditions. Please don't be fooled.

Max shelf life requires No bone, consisitant temperature, ultimately between 1 and 4 DegC and the meats must be processed within 48 hours of slaughter. All COV meats must also be stored 'fat side up' as the blood will turn the meat if the cut is stored with fat on the bottom.

'TIP' If you are storing say a 'whole rump', make sure it is 'fat up'. Also, keep it in an esky with ice on your way home as this will also help.

Butchers started to COV for customers in the early 80's. They would tell people that they could have their meat COV for camping and it will last for 6 weeks. This is simply not true in most cases.

A COV machine in a shop costs around $5,000, whereas one at an Abb costs up to $2million. Huge difference.

So, ask how old the meats is first, then, place it 'fat side up' if applicable in the bottom rear of your fridge as this is generally the coldest.

'Tip' Most COV cuts are at least two weeks old before sold. I don't sell anything with less than 4 - 6 weeks if possible. I have even refussed to sell meats, although I had them, as they were not aged enough. That's hard, essecially when I only get paid when my meats are sold.

Also, don't be put off by any unpleasent odor when opening, however, if this odor doesn't disapear within 2 to 3 hours, you may have a problem.

Hope this helps.

recthub

Please don't be offended if I say that your last post was the most informative and useful post you have ever made.

We disagree on pretty much everything - no matter we are still both members of the species homo sapiens, and are, therefore, still able to communicate.

My local butcher COV's his own meat and, after I inquired, will prepare any meat I ask for (provided I give him notice of course). I may have asked him eventually but thanks to the input from all posters here I have more options now.

Cheers