Gold is found in nature. Most metals are not. They're generally in the form of an ore. It's quite a step from seeing blobs of metal melted from a rock in a campfire to realising that those blobs of metal can make a knife, ring or pot and doing it. How do you think humans made the step? Do you think the first metal object produced by smelting an ornament, weapon, cooking ware, tool or something else? Do you have evidence for your conjecture? Do you think there is some other way that humans saw metal coming from ore other than by fire?

Purely by accident during the earlier times. Afterwards, it was due to curiosity, then by planning & then through the realization of improving daily chores & then the realization of gain from each new development. Pretty much the same principle as today's technology, although nowadays usefulness is being displaced by the far more profitable phenomenon of consumerism. The polluting side effects of producing superfluous commodities are overruled by profit. So, there goes our argument about reducing Greenhouse gases.

It takes more than accident to realise one can produce a knife, pot or tool from a blob of metal if it hasn't been done before. I am pretty sure I would not have thought of it. Can you imagine the thought processes of the person who did think of it?

Hey David, I can imagine this accident thing – bit of rock with some sort of ore running through it in a fire overnight and in the ashes come morning the run of some metal was found in solid form so Rachel (the cavewoman) went looking for that rock and messed with it along with more fire so she could peel the spuds the next night with her newly invented “erk”.

Infact I know this - I am in my 500 thousandth reincarnation.

[smile]

Thanks for that Pied Piper, it's the first time I have laughed out loud at something written on these pages!

I remember reading in some history book that the gold that oozed out of the cooking fires at night, once it was found cool and solidified the following morning, was first used as jewelery by the women of the tribes.

It was aparently used as a sign of prestige among the earlier peoples, so it follows that the men wanted to have some of the gold for their own use as well.

I imagine they found out that it was a reasonably soft, but yet heavy, material and after molding it into various jewelery pieces, some enterprising male thought they could use it as the head of a heavy weapon to crush skulls with or suchlike?

I should imagine that the deriving of metals from ores by humans could have come about as a by-product of early ceramic technology.

It seems almost inevitable that differences in the appearance or performance of the fired clay products of early potters would be intuitively linked to the presence or absence of various metal oxides or other minerals we would refer to as ores. This would be particularly so with regard to the glazing of pottery, which is a means to sealing it, making it water(or wine)tight.

The production of glazed pots requires reasonably high temperatures. It was probably noticed that charcoal, with enough air supplied, could produce a very hot kiln fire with little or no smoke. High temperature heat, the likely presence of other common minerals like limestone, and a reducing agent in the form of the charcoal commonly together in the same place as various ores for colouring glazes may have resulted in curious by-products on occasions, in the form of smelted metals.

Human curiosity, in an environment where other early technology (and labour) was concentrated, the pottery, may have slowly given rise to arty crafty metalwork as a sideline, yielding to more utilitarian applications of smelted metals as properties were noted and applications suggested themselves. Thus the surname Smith would duly come to displace Potter (in whatever language applied) with the onward march of technology, and the military-industrial-legislative axes of those bygone days displace the more naturally 'democratic' consumer oriented ceramics guilds in the vanguard of technology. You know what they say about the devil always finding work for idle hands ........

Far from things going to pot, however, they had come from pot! Humans had to be on their mettle, back then in the years before zero. If one could but go back and poll the potters, I feel sure they would back up this conjecture with a large majority.

Surely there must be plenty of erudite archaeological speculation as to how metallurgy developed, outside of the opinionate that is OLO. Why is it that you ask us, Two Dogs .......?

Great post Forrest.

Not forgetting that pit-roasting was an excellent way to cook food and no doubt, an observant human would've noticed the glassy result of fused sand, leading to wondering what else changed properties after high temperatures.

Also observation after lava flows. So many opportunities to learn - a world of discovery. Now we get excited at a delivery of stationery to the office, sigh.

What I'd like to know is how someone got the idea to add yeast to dough to make it rise and create bread and, of course that other yeasty product, beer. Now that's genius.

“Also observation after lava flows. So many opportunities to learn - a world of discovery. Now we get excited at a delivery of stationery to the office, sigh.”

I love stationary Fractelle, I get fully excited about stationary. Yabby could explain because I think getting excited about stationary is a feminine trait. Beer’s not – you’re a bit of a dark horse at times aren’t ya.

Thanks Suzy, Happy to spread a bit of joy.[smile] That gold thing was interesting and David was saying about how gold is sort of found in its final form aye. Fractelle mentioned the sand thing… and now we just have to figure out what kind of mind put two or three different things (cause I know nothing about metals) from different sources together to make one particular alloy?

What is iron made from?

Forrest.. would it make a difference if people were nomadic or not? Like if they moved a lot they wouldn’t notice changes after say a lightning strike same as people who stayed in one place for generations.

And is this all about accidents, or a human or humans that did stop to think?

TPP asks:

"What is iron made from?"

It is made from iron ore.

Cheers Forrest.

david<<<..It's quite a step from seeing blobs of metal melted from a rock in a campfire,..to realising that those blobs of metal can make a knife,..ring or pot and doing it...How do you think humans made the step?>>.monkey see monkey do....and by keeping secrets

<<Do you think the first metal object produced by smelting an ornament, weapon, cooking ware, tool or something else?>>.it was accepted as a gift #...of the fire spirit...the first gifts were from lighening strikes that creates melted sands...and simply were found where the soil had eroded

break a glsss rod you get a sharp egse...gain the idea of deliberatly cutting shaping etc[so you notice things...see how the shape of an empty skin left over from a flood..when baked in fire made the first pot

<,Do you have evidence for your conjecture?>>...not really when wew see a new thing we are driven to achieve the same gift of the fire by repeating the same ritual/mantra spell...its bnatural we should fully explore a new thing...then endlessly talk about it,,,then se another one...and get its story

<<Do you think there is some other way that humans saw metal coming from ore other than by fire?>>lightening strikes...on eroded outcroppings with high metalic ore content...interesting colours baked into clay pots

hey where that gold stuff go[or my diamond burned ...lol..go figure you dont do that again...unless tyour after the same affect

watch the kids invent..speculate possable uses for a new thing...in nature of thaty early time were monster trees...like one fig tree was the basis for figtree pocket...its roots were 6 meters high..and spanned near one acre of ground...

we simply cant see what they saw..then...actal metals sticking out of the gound..the colours of the rich ore bodies...amasing crystal formations...huge things[great wonders..

but..[because gradually people managed to hide the true greatness of nature/god...by destroying it]..they cause the big things to be destroyed used or exploited..into its bits[componant/constituent parts]...that..because..they cant own it..yet..can trade a part of it]...and next thing its all gone

G'Day All,
An interesting thread & the speculation that goes on about me old cousins(caveMEN no womens lib then) way back then but all things aside I would agree it was probably by accicent the same as glass which was acredited as coming from a lightning strike on sand.
Thanks have a great day from Dave

Just out of interest, does anyone know if old Ferdinand built the first Benzin motor before or after the substance was created ? i.e. Did he get the idea of combustion from fuel available at the time or did he actually invent Benzin in order to build the engine ? I think we can safely assume he had already access to iron (invented by someone else) to build the motor. It's really just like computers now. Some bright spark invents valves & solenoids & resistors by planning a radio & someone else uses that radio to eventually design a computer. Just like life, Evolution ! (oh Gawd, I just opened another can of worms. Sorry !

Dave:”An interesting thread & the speculation that goes on about me old cousins(caveMEN no womens lib then) way back then but all things aside I would agree it was probably by accicent the same as glass which was acredited as coming from a lightning strike on sand.”
Hey they were my cousins first. If Amanda hadn’t stolen my erk that time, along with my pet (aka hubby) then I wouldn’t have had her clan kicked out of Africa and then you Aboriginals wouldn’t have even moved to Oz first.

It was some of her descendants that jumped in the boat when the China boys cruised past a few years later on their way to NZ.

But anyway, thank me later.

I reckon whatever Benzine is it came first. It is becoming apparent that humans don’t really have original thoughts but are good at noticing stuff....?

G'Day All,
TPP what do ya mean they're your cousins Tree Swingers came before you white folk I gather you didn't pay much attention of my side on shot in the photo. Shorten the legs a little then compare to Gorillas in the mist you will see my resemblance.
Dianna Fossey was a good friend didn't you see the movie. Silver Backs rule so you whities get your own cusses aye
Jokes aside Gold when I went to school(still have a little recall although its getting harder) Gold was classified a dead element as it reacted with very little else & is one of few if not the only one that is found in its "pure" form (that's why I am said to be gold)
Anyway All have a great day from Dave.

It is a function of human innovation, invention and the search for better ways of doing things.

The ore-to-knife is no different to the silica-to-computer chip.

The pressures for excellence, efficiency and innovation are motivational drivers for those who see their future through improving: the methods of resource use and deployment, the quality of life and reward from what their innovation brings as benefits to others (through the cycle of commerce).

All we need is someone to work on improving the appalling inefficiency of power stations and other (previously state owned) infrastructure, which have such low energy conversion rates. -

Conversions rates which only appear “good” when compared to the efficiency and performance of the public service and other paid lackies of government

Dave you’re afflicted with CC (Colour Confusion)… you’ve just announced yourself black, gold and silver. And I didn’t think you looked like a XXXX can.

I’m guessing you might have a little of that in ya though. [smirk]

And back on topic… Umm.. nup I got nothing.

Let me assist Fractelle
There are literally billions of wild yeasts in the air. These yeast would have made the fermentation of both bread and beer in very early times.
Just leave the ingredients out and then try the result and voila! The early people would have plenty of time to observe and I am sure would not have wasted any foodstuffs but tried to drink/eat bake etc. They were the same as us just with a lot less experience.

The ancient records say a guy by yhe name of Tubal-Cain was the first to forge all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. It appears one of the tools was a knife or a spear point used for hunting and killing.

Philo:”The ancient records say a guy by the name of Tubal-Cain was the first to forge all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. It appears one of the tools was a knife or a spear point used for hunting and killing.”

Tubal always took credit for his brother Jubal’s work. Jubal was making a trophy for a big competition and it was going to be a for the Winner of the Local Potato Peel-Off. Well his mum Zillah walks in and goes right off because Jubal was in a rush to finish the trophy that morning and had put on his brothers loin cloth by accident.

I had been reincarnated as a cat and was parked up a little way from the forge yet again trying to put my tail out. But you know, trying to be all nonchalant about it.

Well Tubal was standing next to his mum like a right little tell tale and Jubal got so cross he whips off his loin cloth and throws it at his brothers privates and by accident the Golden Potato Peeler that was still molten hot went with it… jesus the look on little Tubals face right before he passed out was priceless, but when he got better he invented the golden spear tip and male castration (Tubal Lightening), this got lost in translation years later… go figure.

Jubal gave up the forge after that and when I came back as his daughter Namaah I suggested Pipe playing as a hobby and even won back the trophy a couple of times but Uncle Tubal wouldn’t let me put it on the mantel.

JBowyer

I am neither stupid nor ignorant. I was making a joke. Humour.

Getting the quantities, temperatures, conditions correct, prior to the invention of thermometers, microscopes (and understanding that there were life-forms too small to see with the unaided eye), would have been achieved through a trial and error process which, quite frequently, would have been fatal. I believe human persistence and ingenuity is amazing, that was the point I was making.

And its not even beer o'clock yet.

G'Day All,
Give it to him Fractelle anyone could have seen you were making a joke but something arose out of that.
My people the Koories, have a red berry with a black tip that is usually lethal if eaten but the pregnant women used to eat it to abort a baby & lived. This would have cost a few lives in trial & error aye.
Anyway what is this beer o'clock? Its BUNDY & coke & if you can't get coke what the hell BUNDY & BUNDY will just have to do.
Thanks All have a great day from Dave

Fractelle, I never said you were stupid or ignorant, however you are at best over sensitive and at worst ill mannered to say I did?
In fact we are not talking about nuclear physics here but cooking. Not really difficult at all and dangerous only for the foolhardy.
I think your "humour" is a little strange to say the least if you don't mind me saying so.

I didn’t know she was making a joke Dave – I was going to explain it but NOT NOW!

I’m keeping it to myself… shuddup, what if I am sulking.

Hey Fractelle I was just watching that ACDC thingi you posted. They were so young, and I didn’t get which city they were in..?

Wonder when humans invented pop stars and made them more important than our scientists. That’s one that needs a lot of explaining.

DWG

Its past Beer o'clock now - my partner brews his own beer and the results are fantastic.

Piper

That was Melbourne, AC/DC drove down Swanston Street on a flat bed truck.

JBowyer

I was discussing chemistry.

No Fractelle you were being both supercilious and rude. No not think that a superior education gives you any superiority because it does not

Oh Fractelle this must be my entire fault… I never usually go to Articles but I did recently and I probably didn’t close the door fast enough, he must have scooted past me into to General when I wasn’t looking.

Just let me grab the broom and I’ll have it sorted in a jiffy.

Dear David f,

Another interesting thread - Thank You for
expanding my knowledge. - As always with
the subjects you introduce on OLO - I had
to do some research... According to
The World Book Encyclopedia -V. 13 -
under the history of metallurgy we're told:

"The ancient Chinese and Egyptians found gold
and silver in their pure state as grains and nuggets,
and moulded the metal into many different kinds of
ornaments. The American Indians found large amounts
of pure copper in the area near Lake Superior and
moulded the metal into weapons and implements.

...Sometime before written history began, some of the
ancient peoples discovered the simplest principles of
smelting metals from their ores. Lead was probably the
first metal ever to be separated from its ore by smelting
(melting the ore in such a way as to remove impurities),
because it is very easy to reduce. But as long as 4,000
years ago, the Egyptians knew how to separate iron from
its ore - and this metal is considered one of the hardest
to reduce. By the time of the Assyrian civilization, smelting
iron was a highly developed art. The ancient Assyrians even
knew how to change iron into steel.

In the Middle Ages, when alchemists were studying ways to
make gold from other substances, great advances were
made in metallurgy. The alchemists are credited with laying
the foundations of the modern science of metallurgy..."

Fractelle,
I wish you & the better half(Smile) all the best but have a beer for me as well.
I got off the grog in !984 until I could control my alcohol & up until then I drank beer & anything else for that matter.
When I did finally go to have a beer I couldn't drink it , it didn't agree with the stomach so I stuck to BUNDY. The worst part I still have the memory(faint as it now might be) of a cold beer on a hot afternoon.
Anyway heres one for you :- Fractelle has these three mates that go to war & want Fractelle to have a geer for them each day they're gone. Well Fractelle goes to the local & orders 4 beers, drinks them & leaves after a few days the barman asks what the 4 beers are about & Fractelle tells him about the mates & the war. Well 6 months goes by & when the barman asks Fractelle if it will be 4 beers Fractelle says only three, Upon serving Fractelle the barman offers condolences
thinking that one of Fractelle,s friends has been lost but Fractelle quickly replies that nothing is wrong that she just gave up drinking. Thanks all have a good life from Dave

JBowyer says:

".... Fractelle you were being both supercilious and rude."

No, no, no, JBowyer!

Whilst it is true that Fractelle is neither stupid nor ignorant, you simply must accept that she can be, at times, terse and ascerbic. Neither terseness nor ascerbity necessarily equate to rudeness, however. Of course, if the terseness or ascerbity was to continue in any one conversation to any significant extent, that could constitute rudeness. But then again, terseness and repetition are contradictory terms, and we start to approach the oxymoronic in any analysis of Fractelle's literary style. So give her a go, JBowyer, and just let what you may see as rudeness add colour to your digital experience on OLO. It shouldn't be too difficult.

As to superciliousness, I am afraid I have had to resort to the dictionary before forming any opinion as to its applicability to Fractelle. It says: ".... Lofty with pride; haughty; dictatorial; overbearing; arrogant ..." Aren't these online dictionaries good, what! I'll have to use mine more often. I wonder whether the GELATO would use the same one?

Sadly, these little contentions conspire to cloak what well may be the truth that she may be somewhat 'over sensitive'. However, in recognition of the fact that she is neither stupid or ignorant, perhaps we can all take refuge in the belief that Fractelle is merely 'difficult' at times. Her professed love of beer and rugby league stand in intriguing juxtaposition to her expressed mild dislike of DV and control freaks, don't you think? I'm doing my best to try and desensitize her, JBowyer. Please help if you can.

Forrest, busy as he had been outside halving the food supply of any wombats that might be in the vicinity by his constant raking up of leaves (wombats eat roots and leaves, you know) had failed to notice that the sun had inexorably crept up and over the yardarm, to the point where it was now dipping below it again. It was after beer o'clock! And Forrest was compiling a post!

Suddenly Forrest's finger twitched. Horror! Posted!

Forest
I thought wombats eats, roots, shoots & leaves
Have a good day From Dave