This is a new concept. We have a sponsor who has offered to pay for two OLO readers to go, as part of a larger group, to a lecture called "The Global Financial Crisis - A Crisis of Credit and Faith?" which is to be given by Professor Ian Harper, who until recently was head of the Fair Pay Commission. He is a committed Christian, and I assume that the lecture will be from a Christian viewpoint.

It is in Brisbane, so this offer would be limited to those on this forum who can attend a lecture here on Wednesday 2nd September at the Customs House at 6:00 p.m. The idea is to have a (non-sponsored) meal afterwards.

Notice is a bit late, but I need to get an indication by later today if anyone is interested. If there are more than two I'll randomly select. The offer is not limited to people who are Christian as the sponsor is keen to see a wide discussion of these issues.

I'm going, as I think this will be an interesting evening, but I don't count for one of the two.

you never cease to amase grayham quote<<..We have a sponsor who has offered to pay for two OLO readers to go, as part of a larger group,>>..i know its a hurried post but whats..the name of this group/...thinktank?

<<to a lecture called "The Global Financial Crisis - A Crisis of Credit and Faith?">>...who has the best chance in this one ...pro...saying there is no problem...or con..one posting every conspiricy of the banking cartels ....from roman times

<<which is to be given by Professor Ian Harper,..who until recently was head of the Fair Pay Commission...>>...do we get to ask him..about how this relates to that...or carbon tax implications

..is this the same fair pay commision...lol..that said freeze the minimum wage...just pre to the hyperinflation...all.. that new money ..will bubble into?

<<He is a committed Christian,..and I assume that the lecture will be from a Christian viewpoint.>>..jesus and the money changers..playing with exchange rates...what sort of xtian?...there are hundreds of sects...some are more asset friendly than others..[re dispensations]

<<It is in Brisbane,..so this offer would be limited to those..on this forum..who can attend a lecture here..on Wednesday 2nd September at the Customs House at 6:00 p.m...>>..im presuming we could go and listen...or try to pass the doorman..but also ...im excluding me as the option...for obvious reasons

im certainly not worthy..to represent the forum..to an important sponcer...i rekon belly...or yabby...or col..if foxey aint available

[can we bring significant other...only one pair or two?]
two singles?

OUG as Queenslanders say A? no idea what you are on about, I meant me but suspect you haven't either.
Thanks GY I am interested but not taking up the offer, credit and faith put me off.
Hate to drive all the way up and settle in to hear God played a hand in our crisis.
Will try to go the other way, to forgotten Australians in Sydney next month.

Your wealth is always in your people and Global Corporatism ignores this reality at their peril.The philosophy of profit at any cost is pure folly.

The financial markets have fed of it's own expectation perverting the functioning of the real economy, thus we will now enter the second stage of our collapse.

Dear Graham,

What a great offer and I certainly hope that
it will generate enough interest from
OLO members.

My recommendations - for whatever they're worth -
would be people like - CJ, Examinator, Pericles,
csSteele, Robert, Oliver, David f, Ludwig, Col Rouge,
Houellebecq, Belly, Fractelle, Bronwyn, Pelican,
just to name a few...

I would love to go - but my husband and I will be in
Sydney from 1st September for a week.

Whoever you choose Graham - I hope they'll give us a
write up on OLO - when they return.

Have fun.

Graham

<< This is a new concept. >>

A few giveaways to achieve lots of free publicity - I'd say it's a fairly old concept myself.

It's your forum, Graham, but personally I don't think OLO should be used to promote any event with a religious connection.

Belly

<< .. credit and faith put me off. >>

:)

Foxy

I'd find most discussions on the GFC extremely interesting, but not this one I'm sorry. Thanks for including me in your list though. :)

Dear Bronwyn,

You're welcome! I thought you'd be a good
person to raise some interesting questions
at the Conference.

Just an example:

I thought that it may be interesting to bring up
for discussion - the influence of the global
financial meltdown on religion e.g. will there now be
- less financial
support to churches and church-schools?
Will there now be - pre-
occupation of financial survival - instead of
devotion to religion? how will the global financial
crisis affect donations to church institutions?
Will profits of the Vatican bank be reduced? and so on...
Will more young people join religious orders for
economic suvival - instead of joining the work-force -
as has been the case in the past during economic crises...

It could be interesting - if there's enough interesting
questions being asked - don't you think?

You're right, Foxy, there are many questions which could be asked. A pity you'll be in Sydney and not Brisbane as you'd be the perfect person to ask them.

The trouble for me is I'd have to listen to a lot of God-speak and gobbledy-gook first, which mightn't be good for my stress levels! :)

Bronwyn, the antagonism of some to religion, particularly Christianity, never ceases to amaze me. What sort of things are we allowed to promote? We accepted sponsorship from Greenpeace recently, and most could guess what I think of them. But I'd be happy to promote a function for them if they asked. And go to one.

I'd agree that a lot of Christians and what they believe, are irrational, and that religion is to some extent non-rational, but so are lots of other schools of belief. Why should Christians be a special group that you can't promote, but it's OK to discuss Freudianism, or global warming millenarianism?

When it comes down to it, atheism is in my view just as irrational, or non-rational, as theism, with agnosticism the most rational option, but no-one complains when we give atheists a pulpit.

Brony,

Call me cynical but lets put this into perspective.

Going to a lecture billed by a committed Lib given by Lib party appointee to an electorally failed Lib politically ideological romp.
A talk from a Liberal and 'non predictive' science (sic) (economics) perspective on the GFC and link it with a religious topic, Christianity. Wow!

It would be worth going to observe the convoluted and contorted reasoning necessary to link two totally unrelated topics.
Although, I do wonder at the point of discussing how this shot gun match is relevant to a functionally secular electorate.

I wonder if the wider group is a group of right wing religiously inclined LNP acolytes?

Sadly, I suspect my anti PARTY political and secular (separationist) overtones have just disqualified myself.

(sigh) I know I know, the naughty corner for me again (sigh) :-(

GY
I read your post after I posted mine.
I've read Brony's post several time and fail to see the hostility you refer to.

I'm not defending her that is for her to do if she feels the need.

I am however making a general note that your observation about not examining/critical of atheists is simply not true.

A number of posters have also reject proselytizing by atheists too which have been posted on OLO in numerous discussions.

Your response has concerned me ...Goodness know what you will make of my post.

Neither post said that you can't/shouldn't 'promote' those views even putting your ownership aside. Your previous relatively non intervention editorial policy draws varied responses in both directions

In that light I wonder what your last post signals.

examinator

Yep, I'd say we're both off to the naughty corner for sure. :)

And it might be hands-on-your-head as well for you I'd say!

One thing I never have been or will be is a crawler.
Yes GY is a liberal, as is his right.
My post may well have been totally wrong.
The faith mentioned could VERY much be faith in the system, surely even now, we do have doubts in it even new proposed systems may never work.
No one is more confrontational than me, IF I think some one is having me on.
Get off his back Friends he has every right, to invite us, to be part of this debate.
I listen to radio national if this comes on I will take an interest.
I deplore the power religion has, but never want a world that stops people believing what they want to.
I however NEVER will expose myself again to a day of religion any religion.
Who ever gos even graham please consider reporting on the event my second thoughts are the faith may well be in the system not God.
Enjoy.
PS if those who can afford it gave just a little the forum would be the better for it

We should all aspire towards freedom of thought and association.I don't see a problem.Perhaps a different perspective will bring forth some solutions.

Keep and open mind on all new ideas,since we will need them,as the GFC is far from being over.

Dear Graham,

Two serious contenders would surely have
to be - George and CSteele.

Both extremely articulate, knowledgeable, well reasoned,
and great representatives at a Conference such
as this.

Fingers-crossed that they would be interested
and able to attend.

For you Foxy and any OLOers from Perth or Sydney who might be interested -

http://www.smithlecture.org/images/stories/artwork/brochure-2009.pdf

Don't know why I'm helping to promote such an event. Must have a touch of the sun!

Two of the sponsors are City Bible Forum and the Centre for Public Christianity.

http://www.smithlecture.org/

Dear Bronwyn,

Thank You for the websites - the series sounds interesting -
with an impressive list of past guest speakers.
However, I can't attend even in Sydney unfortunately.
- Our schedule has already been pre-planned.

But, I appreciate your thinking of me.

AJay, Belly
Almost a fair point but given that Christianity et al are Mass religions that circle a fixed Dogmas perhaps you can tell me is there a massive change in the Dogma, philosophy, hierarchy, even the text? In truth once you've got a reasonable grounding in Christianity there is factually new?

Let's be quite clear my record on the subject is one of tolerance and “for each their own”.
I have had heated OLO discussions with atheists and others defending Christians/Muslims etc right to practice what ever they want providing it doesn't harm others.
Neither am I claiming to be any better than dozens of other OLOers who practice the same thing.

My point is simply to point out 'not interested' doesn't equal hostility antagonism etc.

Had this meeting been about 'Latvian Contact Macrame' my response would have been similar a bit of good humoured jesting. I have nothing against that either.

I will admit to one relevant mild reservation on philosophic grounds, that of the pointlessness of party (any party) political bias. Neither does that mean I don't understand it nor I haven't been involved in it. It means as written “Not interested”

Dear Foxy,

I’m blushing.

Extremely articulate? Hardly.

Knowledgeable? Getting there, a lot more slowly than I would like.

Well reasoned? Probably but I tend to think that is just a by-product of getting older.

But thankyou.

And yes the lecture does sound interesting but I am unable to attend. Just one state too far I imagine.

However if I could add my two cents worth and take a slightly different angle.

In purely economic terms the GFC may well be a time for ‘opportunities for a growth’ in some of the ‘real’ churches as I suspect it may cause greater inequities in our society and religion seems to flourish when they magnify. The US is a case in point.

For the same reasons we may see the diminution of the prosperity gospel merchants such as Hillsong as more Jobesque position comes to the fore - the rich are not just those blessed by God nor are the poor those rejected by him.

However the impact of the GFC promises to be far more severe in third world countries. One cannot but cringe a little when our government slaps itself on its back boasting how much better we have survived the worst of it compared to other countries, some of which are extremely poor. Once again ‘opportunities’ may present themselves for religious NGO’s like World Vision to expand and do their stuff.

So a cynical view is that the Churches may do quite well out of the GFC but economics is drenched in cynicism so not out of place I would have thought.

Possibly entirely off the mark but musing costs nothing, so far anyway. Not going to pay-per-view on OLO Graham?

its been 19 hours since the last post
and its nearly off the main page as a topic
so thought refreshment was i order

i would love to go
but only as me johan
not as one under god

Hi Johan,

You had better send me your real name and details then. Plus an email address that works, because this one seems to be bouncing.

Sounds like there are no other takers.

I'll "report back" and let you all know what happens.

Thanks for the offer Graham and sponsors.

Surprisingly, I would have loved to attend but a bit too far for me with work commitments. Maybe when I am retired I might make it to a Harper lecture - or if he speaks in Canberra.

He has an interesting biography and some of the criticism levelled at him as a right wing religious zealot are largely unfair and don't paint the whole picture. I must admit I was disappointed in the Fair Pay Commission's decision about minimum wage increases.

Professor Harper has made comments about the problems of capitalism becoming a religion in itself and interesting things about market economics, not all of which I agree, but nevertheless it will be great to hear what you thought of his lecture.

-Original Message -
From: "Graham Young" <graham.young@onlineopinion.com.au>
To: <johanhendrick@ozemail.com.au>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: Comment deletion recommendation

> Hi Johan,
>
> This always bounces on me. <
...so i get told...
but wouldnt know how to block anyone
least of all you...

>Anyway,..I'll book you in.
>
> Regards,
>
> Graham
>

....SEE it didnt bounce

asio must be letting a few get through

lol

thanks grayham

i will try to behave

cheers

address
<<<..Wednesday 2nd September
<<at the Customs House at
6:00 p.m.

..//... gloat?

....how many word summaition/commentary/report on the sponcers event

350?

if it..e-mail... bounces post at article
cheers

one seat to go

please...from the literatie
literate../edu-makated

Pelican,
Fair point ..noted
I'll curb my satirical humour too.
thanks

Examinator
Apologies if you thought my comment was for you - I was speaking of wider criticism of Harper than OLO.

Please always be yourself - don't worry about what I or others might think. :)

Graham,

I think an angel has just sharpened her pencil and given you a little tick in the positive column.

A better man than I Gunga din.

All the best.

just a note to say email is bouncing

seems someone has uploaded/sent me.. a big attatchment
email times out... before loading into the [my]..inbox
effectivly no mail is getting through

so go anyhow
soon

Yes, it is bouncing. I sent an email a few days ago. Not sure whether you got my considered opinion on dress etc. but it is drinks from 6:00 until 7:00 and the lecture from 7:00 until 8:00 so something semi-formal appears to be in order.

oops semi formal
and i turned up in tshirt

anyhow a good time was held..by me
nice people all round
not enough talk about religion
nor about finance

interesting that econimisn..is reportedly 'only' ..200 years old
obviously..the lesons of the dutch tulip boom..or the bond market's of the venetians/italians euros.loyds etc..were thus not relivant

no mention of the affect of carbon tax..or the bad loans/debt swaps and securitised aaa grade mort gauge secxurities/derivitives.. still just sitting there in our superfunds...and banks at inflated values

...speaker still of the school that..that..a rising tide rises all boats...but fails to metion how those..sitting..on the bottum fare...or that your bargain..means anothers loss..[market realism]..

.and in denmial that we even need a minimum pay increase..clearly still opf the opinion that we [the royal we]..never hgad it so good

plenty of recomendations to read other books...wealth of nations..theory of moral sentimeants...the great awakening..[..if the handwriting can be believed]..

.and the revelation that 32 of the 66 books of the bible...are about the topic..[e-con-nomics]...that began as a lol..[keep a straight face]...moral philosophy...of right conduct

clearly a lot has changed in two hundred years...anyhow thats the first oral conversation..i had with any one..over 10 for two months...im still as socially inept as ever...

but thanks for the invite grayham...

in truth i did try on my tuxedo jacket..but dont fit into it anymore...when will they begin making lykra/lycra formel wear

as were the only ones here...i sent emails to mutual friends...informing you as a courtesy

[quote]>>>thank you for your kindness greg
here is the main indo sources

they are a bit to the dark side..but many formerly were intel opperatives
main web site..is redirecting to the main site
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?cmd=archives

the archives now cost one dollar 33 cents a mth...payable via credit card...[i..never owned one]..so now listen live time..
that is very time consuming..but my time is free...but suggest you sacrifice the dolar..and acces the archive for stadmiller/noal/the matrix ...on live between...7to 11 oclock...then go to listen to alex jones..when it was archived i could do it in half an hour..scimming through the topic

anyhow alex jones has some top advisers...and so i listen to him
http://www.infowars.com/

also recomend
http://whatreallyhappened.com/
and three afterlife e/books
[i feel would be great movies]
...for spirit knowledge of the after life
http://www.angelfire.com/ne/newviews/gonewest1a.html

someone who channeld jesus
a course in miracles
http://www.courseinmiracles.com/index.html
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewforum.php?f=29&sid=ca4fa686a9dff6e66db2030dec99126b

[used to be linked to a concordance
http://www.execulink.com/~dthomp75/2007/URCONC/ur21.txt.WebConcordance/framconc.htm
[i love concordances to search out words...as mentioned in the holy texts[i hold them all as holy]...lol

but i guess i quoted it too much
or it was only to help me post the stuff at celesteenvision link


anyhow my main site's...[out put]
http://www.worldfreemansociety.org/forum/index.php?sid=903cab1758b64e4578ae04dfcf59578b
and olo
forum
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/user.asp?id=51186&show=history


anyhow thank you for sharing your feelings
rudds right the china issue is the key
and they feel the need to convert as many dollars into gold as they can
but knowing if they do the us will fall...

[my sources report us embassies have been told to convert their us reserves..into local currencies
avoid contracts ...in us dollars....as payment

anyhow cheers
thank you for a good night
johan


unedited

to matthew...anyhow..i said..i would send..the jesus/parrable..

the following is my search for the quote...[mid]..post
http://www.civilrights.org.nz/forum/index.php/topic,398.0.html
but..the site might not be open..to the public

[so rather than an attatchment]..i include a full/cut..and paste of it ...in next email...]

matthew..is my fav bible quote
matt..23;15-25..matt..7;1...matt..5;33-44

but anyhow..i noted your passion..for patent law..too late
as explained..heralic is the preceedant to patent

where it all went wrong..was in inheriting a given right
thus the entry of contract law..via wills


patent rights are going to kill us
as they can stall imoportant developments
from developing..[witness the tesla inventions/and the petro industry suppresing alternative teqnoligies..to reatiain their market position
preventing free energy...[the forth dimention..lol]...

simply..by bying up..the patents

so naturally..i have sought the subject out..in depth
i even went to test it in court
but..wasnt proceeded with

my act was to reclaim the head of the deer
by heraldic right,...from the queensland coat of arms
[with a hatchet..the judge returned to me...lol..following their failure to proceed]

see..i hold heraldic..right to the head of the deer
[possably under letter's of patent from the dutch crown]

when i stand in court...
im their under..their seal..the qld..coat of arms...

but my sovereign patent claim.
.by heraldic right...
to the image of the deers head...preceeds theirs
http://www.worldfreemansociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=167&p=1116&hilit=+patent+law#p1116

ditto the beer..etc..with deers head on it..
.these rights of owning extend beyond letters of patent
but i cant be bothered..destroying the game..[breaking that seal]

.i feel patent must enable use...
that allowes it[the patent]..be diseminated....
and share of proffet ratiod..[built in]

automaticly due..
.per unit used...held in account/trust...
that allows patents to be used[not hoarded/tied up]

without injury to the common weal..
#...to take the law suit control facter ...from the issue




then some other topics

from search for patent posts at site
http://www.worldfreemansociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2682&p=16278&hilit=patent+law#p16278
trying to find the jesus post
http://www.worldfreemansociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=458&hilit=jesus+law
http://www.worldfreemansociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1125&p=16366&hilit=jesus+law#p16366
trying other search terms
http://www.worldfreemansociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=2348&p=14128&hilit=+jesus+trial#p14128
http://www.worldfreemansociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=1049&p=5332&hilit=+jesus+trial#p5332

anyhow
thanks for some good thinking

enjoyed your pasion for patent
is it under laws patent

cheers
johan
all rights reserved

ps..bill gates began an internet patent service...[for 5 bucks a patent]...that should shake things up a bit

OK Here is my take on Ian Harper's lecture.

He sees the financial crisis as having triggered a visceral reaction amongst the population in revulsion at immoral behaviour, specifically greed.

He sees all of us as being implicated in the greed, because we have collectively and individually demanded better and better investment returns and will punish those managers who don't deliver. Better returns demanded higher risk and in some cases dishonest behaviour.

At the root of the crisis he sees a crisis of faith, in the sense that the credit crunch was caused because banks had lost faith in other banks to the stage where they would not lend to each other. So he was using faith in a non-religious sense.

He said that these types of crises have the potential to cause a moral reawakening, and traced three previous moral reawakenings. He said that if we experienced another one now it would help to stop these sorts of crises.

While he did not advocate Christianity as the only place to gain a moral understanding, he did say that the Bible had a lot to say about money and wealth, and that the rewards we seek should be internal, not external, citing passages like "Pile up not for yourselves treasure on earth where moths corrupt and thieves break-in and steal" or "Money is the root of many evils".

He also suggested that China needed to float the remnimbi, encourage its citizens to consume and institute a social welfare policy. This seemed somewhat at odds with his moral message.

However, he does see economics as having moral under-pinnings, and that it ought to be the servant of achieving good moral outcomes.