Foxy wrote: "You forgot to mention while citing the "religious atrocities," that they were all committed by fundamentalists (extremists) be they - Christian, Jewish, Muslim Extremists, Buddhist,or Hindus.

Dear Foxy,

I did not forget to mention it at all. Sometimes I forget things, but I did not forget to mention that.

If we define those who approve or carry out religious atrocities as extremists then we let everybody else off the hook. However, often the 'extremists' are in the majority. Most of the German churches and most of their parishioners supported Hitler because the years of the Jew hatred promoted by their churches conditioned them to accept it.

I am familiar enough with Sri Lanka to know that the majority of Buddhist clergy there supported the bloody suppression of the Tamils. I cite Buddhism because that has been promoted as a religion of peace, and some are very peaceful. However, the Japanese officer corps in WW2 were almost all Buddhists, and they were a most violent group of men.

The Christian Crusades were not carried out by a minority. The mass of Christians supported them.

I recently read a book called "The Elephant in the Room". It is about the culture of denial that exists to some degree in all societies. These are the open secrets that everybody knows but nobody admits. I started the string about the very poor in Australia as I think there is a culture of denial concerning that. There is also a culture of denial of the evil inherent in religion.

foxy and david f,

The popes have much to answer for with regards to Christian Wars. In the case of the Crusade of 1096, the Pope said the Crusaders would be forgiven all their sins were they to die at on the way to Holy War. Those sins were to include killing and roasting babies and cannibalism. Also, killing Jews in addition to the target Muslims and, some fellow Christians too.

From the percusions of the pagans in the fourth century through to Ku Klux Klan and beyond Christianity has been very dark. I guess the original Judaic Christians before Nicaea did not share the post Constantine histories.

Richie 10,

I replied to your post earlier today, and apologise for missing the salutation to you.

Foxy

I consider you to be the most enlightened of any of the Christian posters on OLO. However, when you spoke of "Christian compassion" that phrase pressed one of my buttons.

Compassion is a human value, I do not see any religion as having exclusivity to human virtues such as charity, respect, empathy and so on.

I agree with Davidf on the culture of denial of the potential for evil within any religion. I know we would still have evil, obscene acts by humans without religion. I also know that religion does not prevent evil.

I am very interested in Buddhism and find the teachings resonant to my own values. However, I do not for a second believe that all Buddhists are peaceful and tolerant. Like all religions the ultimate leaders are all male. Only early pagan religions revered the female and that was a long time ago, nor do I believe that in spite of being a matriarchy, pagan religions were better or worse than the religions today.

Therefore, I observe all religions in an objective rather than subjective manner. At the foundation of all religions is the golden rule of treating others as you would have others treat you. And they have all failed. Christianity has had 2000 years to achieve peace on earth - I don't see this happening ever. If human beings ever do learn to cooperate with and accept each other, it won't be because of religion. My hope is that through evolution more peaceful humans will be born than aggressive, but that is far in the future, if ever.

Dear David f and Fractelle,

Professor Tor Hundloe in his book,
"From Buddha to Bono: Seeking sustainability,"
says it much better than I seem to be able to
express:

"Religion has proven to be an extremely powerful
force in human endeavour and in particular in
how we relate to nature and to each other.

For a small minority religion overrules everything else-
etnicity, naionalism, science, and even family. It is
not only in the distant past that belief in the
supernatural overrode natural thinking...

The war of ideas in the early 21st century is not between
'the West' and 'Muslims' as we are led to believe.
Neither are unitary concepts and there is little
difference between the strictly religious west and
fundamentalist Islam.

There is a small, but extremely powerful fundamentalist
religious west, and, similarly, there is a small properly
larger - fundamentalist Islam. There are also, we shouldn't
forget, fundamentalist Hindus.

It is possibly the case that in all religions there are
those who are rooted to the literal word of their
'god-given' tomes. This was what fundamentalism meant
when it first arose within sectors of US Christanity.
They have, what has come to be called, the "God gene."

Fundamentalists wage war on the secular, as well as those
who believe in a different religion.

I personally respect Zoroaster's 'golden rule,'
"do unto others as you would have them do to you."
I think in all its simplicity it still remains the
best guide humans have to a happy social life.

cont'd ...

Dear David f,

You wrote:

"Most of the German churches and most of their
parishioners supported Hitler because the years
of Jew hatred promoted by the churches conditioned
them to accept it."

That is not an accurate statement.

If you were to google "German Churches under Hitler,"
you would learn the following facts:

The "Barmen Declaration," 1934 was a call to resistance
in Germany against the theological claims of the Nazi
state.

Many Christians in Germany including Lutheran and Reformed,
Liberal and Neo-Orthodox opposed totally the encroachment
of Nazi idealogy. At Barmen, this emerging "Confessing
Church," adopted a declaration drafted by Reformed
Theologian Karl Barth and Lutheran Theologian Hans Asmussen,
which expressly opposed the Nazi theology.

Many Christians resisted the regime. People like Protestant
Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Roman Catholic Priest
Bernhard Lichtenberg (just to name two) were arrested
and executed in concentration camps.

The spirituality of the Barmen Declaration profoundly
influenced many of the first generation pastors and
lay people who in later years formed the United Church
of Christ.

As I wrote on another thread - there were numerous
courageous men and women who refused to participate
in the subjugation and destruction of the targeted
groups and individuals. There were Jews who interceded
with their lives to save persecuted Christians, there
were Christians who died in their attempts to save Jews.
They died, some along with their entire families, or
accepted their fates in concentration camps rather than
betray their fellow men. These heroes embody human
nobility in its highest form and stand as beacons in
the other wise bleak history of World War II.

Dear Foxy,

My statement is completely accurate. I never claimed that all Christians followed Hitler, but the great majority went along. Christians like to mention the few like Niemoller, Barth and Bonhoeffer who resisted, but they were a small minority. It was natural for most Christians to go along since the highest figures in their churches sanctioned Hitler. German Christians were mostly Lutherans or Catholics. The founder of the Lutheran religion was a great Jew hater whose hate statements could be printed verbatim in the Nazi papers. The Vatican signed a concordat with the Nazis and never excommunicated Hitler or even put Mein Kampf on the index.

One heroic figure was Franz Jaegerstatter an Austrian peasant who was a bit of a hellraiser when young. He headed a motorcycle gang and got a girl pregnant who he refused to marry after her condition became obvious. Finally, he married another woman and became active in his local Catholic Church.

Although he had military training and was a sergeant in the reserve he refused to serve when called up for duty. He thought that what the Nazis were doing was wrong and said so. They offered him the chance of serving in the medical corps as a non-combatant, but he refused to serve in any capacity. He was an embarrassment to the Nazis since he was racially 'pure' and belonged to no political organisation. They were concerned that others
might follow his example. They got his wife, his priest, members of the Catholic hierarchy and others who knew him to try to persuade him to go. Jaegerstatter refused to cooperate in any way and eventually was beheaded. He defied the authority of the Church in addition to defying the authority of the government. "In Solitary Witness" by Arnold Zahn tells his story. However, he was the only Austrian layman who defied the Nazis openly to such an extent without the backing of any organised group after the anschluss. He was completely alone.