The other issue that comes to mind are the mandarin and masses dichotomy that brilliant British writer Theodore Dalrymple uses. I believe that there are many parents out there with the resources, environment and opportunities to exclude smacking completely. (As a parent with some relevant tertiary qualifications I have a much larger toolkit then some parents among the "masses" and strongly prefer positive reinforcement, consistency, teaching values and a focus on avoiding peer orientation to corporal punishment.) However the subset of parents who are similarly advantaged and who have already shifted to other tools should not judge or control parents who do not have the same privilege. Doing so is detrimental to society as a matter of common sense as runner and others correctly note.

"In other words THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A BAN ON SMACKING YOUR CHILDREN IN NEW ZEALAND. Just as I suspected. Thank you STG."

Posted by MaryE

Who are you trying to convince?. There actually is, but they amended it to its current form. They included discretion of the Police Officer at a later date. The quote you posted from the act is a quote from the Defence Against Charge section. Like I said before. You CAN get charged with assault for smacking if there's a complaint laid but your defence would be that the physical contact you've been accused of is that you were "performing the normal daily tasks that are incidental to good care and parenting".

It's at the discretion of the Police as to whether they lay the charge or not depending on the individual Officers perception of circumstances and severity of contact.

...and it's rude to DEMAND others to do your research FOR YOU. That's why you got short sarcastic replies from me. Took me five minutes to find the information.

mjpb "I believe that there are many parents out there with the resources, environment and opportunities to exclude smacking completely. "

Yes, but as a parental choice and "parents" being the primary carers, with a vested interest in the well being and development of the child -

I would suggest "Smacking" might well be the punishment most appropriate, in the circumstances. I say that because I assume a natural parent has a greater interest in their children than some remote "expert"

"(As a parent with some relevant tertiary qualifications I have a much larger toolkit then some parents among the "masses" and strongly prefer positive reinforcement, consistency, teaching values and a focus on avoiding peer orientation to corporal punishment.)"

Ah nothing quite like a "relevant tertiary qualifications" for bullying other folk who have a fully functioning set of cognitive skills....

but only is one is intimidated by bullying "tertiary qualified" experts

and I am not of that class of person...

Indeed, my own "tertiary qualifications" predicate against such intellectual debasement and submission.

NZ Parental control

(1) Every parent of a child and every person in the place of a parent of the child is justified in using force if the force used is reasonable in the circumstances and is for the purpose of—

o (a) preventing or minimising harm to the child or another person; or
o (b) preventing the child from engaging or continuing to engage in conduct that amounts to a criminal offence; or
o (c) preventing the child from engaging or continuing to engage in offensive or disruptive behaviour; or
o (d) performing the normal daily tasks that are incidental to good care and parenting.

(2) Nothing in subsection (1) or in any rule of common law justifies the use of force for the purpose of correction.

(3) Subsection (2) prevails over subsection (1).

(4) To avoid doubt, it is affirmed that the Police have the discretion not to prosecute complaints against a parent of a child or person in the place of a parent of a child in relation to an offence involving the use of force against a child, where the offence is considered to be so inconsequential that there is no public interest in proceeding with a prosecution

Jim Evans, emeritus professor of law at Auckland University:

“The problem is the section doesn't stop with subsection (1). Subsection (2) says: "Nothing in subsection (1) justifies the use of force for the purpose of correction." Then, for good measure, subsection (3) says: "Subsection (2) prevails over subsection (1).

Subsection (4) then adds that the police have a discretion not to prosecute complaints against a parent, when the offence is so inconsequential that there is no public interest in prosecuting.

Subsection (2) seems to take away much of what is allowed by subsection (1). Just how one makes overall sense of it is not clear.

The sop in subsection (4) does not help: it makes it more likely that its application will be arbitrary.”

Yep, I so called it.[smile]

Pied Piper the way I read it a child can be smacked at the time of the behaviour to stop it stop an out of control situation (section 1). You can't come back later and smack for something that happened earlier to discourage a repeat offense (section 2).

So the kid who is kicking, screaming and smashing stuff can be smacked to get their attention and stop the dangerous behaviour. You can't bundle them into the car, get them settled down and then give them a thrashing afterwards.

Whilst police discretion is great I wonder how much of a minefield that creates. If I was spotted smacking a child I'd rather runner be the investigating officer than Mikk. I could see how perceptions about ethnic groups could easily impact on how a smack was intepreted by police as well. Maybe even gender, would dad giving a child a smack be intepreted the same was as mum giving the child a smack.

R0bert

I often think with the obsession with spanking we miss a more insidious form of abuse. Verbal abuse can be just as if not more damaging than physical. Actually it can be the verbal and psychological abuse that comes hand in hand with the physical abuse that actually is more damaging. The fear of walking around on egg shells wondering when a parent is going to explode in a fit of rage, the verbal abuse and put downs eroding any self esteem or sense of self worth.

I'll wager there are plenty of parents who smack at the right time, in a balanced family life with no psychological or verbal abuse and there's no real damage at all. Conversely I know there are parents who don't smack but by god there are some f&cked up things goin' on!

Don't you want people to love you?
My spanking, that's the only thing I want so much...
Spanking, that's the only thing I want so much...
That's the only thing I want so much...
Why is that better than being hugged?
Because you get closer to the person...
Closer to the person...
Just like a person having sex feels cared for...
We wanna be loved, so we have sex together...
And they feel loved about that...
And this is the way it makes me feel...loved...
I want it, I dream about it, I think about it, I want it...
Just like a girl wants sex with a boy, you know?
It's the way I'll always be probably...
My last one was born in the system...
See, they're stupid, very stupid, those people over there...
They're stupid...
These people are so below mentality, honest to God, really...
You know what I mean, he got the nerve to bug me... (2x)
This mentality, honest to G-d, really...
And I don't know if that's my imagination, but, umm...
Hey foxymophandlemama, that's me... (2x)
She prides herself on her cleaning habits... (2x)
Hey foxymophandlemama, that's me...
It's a lovely stupid mop, it is...