The best solar power scheme in the world eh! That is what Australia is to build.
Well..now what about proposing the best dental scheme in the world?
By my estimation by the year 2020 Australia would be a toothless nation...as by then most won't be able to afford costs as associated with oral hygiene as it is presently with many low income earners. It is quite shameful that whilst Australia is enjoying quite a lucrative income from it's resources boom this image of toothlessness is of the prospective.
Which brings me to an idea for a tourism ad campaign in the years to come inkeeping with this image.
It consits of four elderly toothless persons ....say sitting on Bondi Beach..or next to the Opera House..or the Harbour Bridge..or even next to that new solar power scheme...and saying "Come to beautiful Australia" It is of some trepidation that someone will shout ...."Put your teeth in" where the reply shall be" What the hell are....teeth?

Governments are not obliged to live individuals' personal lives for them. That's the road to the slavery and totalitarianism of the welfare state.

We rightly have a safety net for the less fortunate. But how much of their misfortune is their own doing? People want non-essentials that they can't afford and they are prepared to pay for them by going into debt. When it comes to their health - including dental care - they want the government to pay for it.

It's their choice: good health or things they don't really need. Some might think that's "unfair", but that's life.

People like Leigh don't realise that it's in everyone's interests that their fellow citizens remain in good health. Nor do they think about the consequences of their beliefs.

I find it strange that if your heart, liver, pancreas, bones, blood, gut etc needs health care that's OK.

What is special about teeth? It's just another medical speciality.

Except of course if you want to eat something other that soup.

Leigh I suppose you are in favour of the US user pays system where it costs $68,000 for 3 days in hospital. Idiot.

(I can only speak of) Qld's system of health care has been hijacked by bureaucrats. medical staff & operational staff in hospitals are tearing out their hair in frustration due the shortage of funding. an outrageous percentage of the health budget is syphoned off by an army of career bureaucrats for insane super pay-outs, staff development which is of no use to patients and just as insane costly fanciful designer style free staff accommodation. a large percentage of free staff housing is exploited for free holiday accommodation for visiting friends and relatives. remote communities patient transfer too is a huge expense especially when patients miss their flights & the flight has to be re-booked & paid for again by the taxpayer.
i am amazed at how much funding is made available for the personal whims of bureaucrats who, when put under scrutiny, can't even offer an explanation in their defence. they can simply opt for total silence without fear of reprisal. if an officer is suspected of misconduct he/she get promoted away from the area. yes promoted, not even moved sideways. code of conduct means to pull into line with the bureaucrats. one has to look after # 1 but one could easily be made to belief that patient care is priority # 3.

Don't forget that there are valid options other than spending more on treatment. Queensland could substantially improve dental health by making municipal water fluoridation compulsory. Banning the sale of highly addictive decay causing food and drink would substantially improve dental health, as well as greatly reduce obesity, diabetes, heart disease and cancer incidence. Unfortunately, the right of businesses to profit from the sale of these addictive substances rates far more highly with government than the right of addicts to enjoy better health. In Australia, the right of sugar addicts to destroy their health with the myriad of addictive substances legally available is known as free choice.

Point a finger of blame by all means, but at least point it in the right direction. Marketing is based on statistical analysis. Understandably, marketers seem more interested in how much of their product will sell, not what it will do to the health of the consumers.

Roarer,
Thank you, I find this a very important issue. I strongly agree with you that Australia’s dental health scheme is a total disgrace.
Funding for dental programs should be increased. Dental care, like other health care aspects, should be covered by Medicare; it is a public need and the government should be at our service...

More dental training places should be created, including training places for dental hygienists.

Steel,
dental health is a health issue.
We’re not talking about the government funding fancy tooth art; we’re talking about dental hygiene education, tooth decay and gum disease.
Perhaps you don’t fully realise that tooth decay is a serious health issue. It is!

http://www.aarp.org/bulletin/yourhealth/a2004-03-02-gumming.html
“Mounting evidence shows a link between periodontal disease—chronic infection of the gums—and a host of serious and sometimes life-threatening medical problems, from heart disease and stroke to diabetes and respiratory disease.”
Also, bad teeth do have a negative effect on social interaction. Think of bad breath, applying for jobs, the embarrassment and depression a mouthful of decaying teeth can cause a person.

Sorry, Steel; I obviously didn't mean you, I meant to address Leigh.

fester,
you're absolutely right. more funding does not solve problems such as lack of self-control re junk food & soft drinks. neither does it stop marketeers from pushing their dreadful products. pointing the finger in the right direction as you rightly state actually means pointing it towards and yes you guessed right, bureaucracy . what is the most common hurdle when decent, community minded people try to make a difference ? bureaucratic gobbledygook and right-out nonsence. isn't it bureaucracy who provides licenses & permits which makes it legal for marketeers to ambush society. this includes unhealthy food, violence related toys & all other insane crap. health is not only teeth. it's mind n'all. just look at tv commercials. every 100 seconds the same commercial is being played 24/7. ever checked how much tooth-destroying junk food is legally pushed. yes they do show the odd tooth paste but the crap still heavily outweighs the sensible. how much should society fork out for drug rehabilitaion ? where do we draw the line for people with no self control ? when do we bail up bureaucracy & make it accountable for making life so miserable for people that they lose self control. if society wants people to behave better then they must be given to opportunity to do so. for a start to a healthier society, (mind, body & attitude) we have to have national service (not military) for every 19 year old for 6 months.

Last year, I needed two crowns and a root canal treatment for the tooth which hadn't had this done. I asked a local dentist for a quote. I didn't get a quote, I got an estimate. The estimate did not include the root canal treatment or X-rays. I think he was trying to keep his price down so as not to scare me off and would have slugged me anyway.

I've been a regular holiday visitor to Bali for many years. I'd had a dentist there recommended to me by a Perth friend. I emailed this dentist and got a quote and instructions on how to contact him. My lady friend and I booked a 15 day holiday, staying in nice hotels and eating and drinking in nice restaurants etc. Our total holiday cost, including the dental treatment, was less than I would have had to pay the Perth dentist.

The Bali clinic was more modern than any I have been to in Australia. No pain, no discomfort, a top job. Several of my friends have since been to this clinic and all have been very satisfied.

I have been told that many Brits go to Spain for dental treatment and many West Europeans to Eastern Europe for the same reason, to save money and still get a top job

Thanks for calling me an idiot, Steve, and showing everyone how you deal with diversity of opinion. Your are a real intellectual. A bloke worth taking notice of.

I don't know what people like you hope to achieve by calling others names. I've been called quite a few, and I feel just the same. Perhaps you should try an effigy and pins. I'll let you know if I feel anything.

You and a few other misguided people need to try addressing the subject put up by roarer, and others, rather than abusing people with whom you disagree.

Another person mistakenly addressed a remark to someone which was meant for me. Why would anyone bother? I have my opinion, they have theirs. When someone takes the trouble to raise a subject, I'm quite happy to join in with them if the subject interests me. However, I have no interest in what other people think of that subject or of my opinion

Rex,
Well, that's the best trip to the dentist I have ever heard of!
You're a wise man and you seem to have a lot of fun in life- even when going to a dentist!

Leigh,
"However, I have no interest in what other people think of that subject or of my opinion"

I suppose I (and some other people) have to get used to your way of discussing things, because it's a little different from the way things normally are being discussed on OLO.

Yours, like everybody else's opinon, should be respected and heard, and I do agree with you that namecalling isn't the best way to discuss things.
But really, you can't expect people not to react to your opinions; in most people's view, a discussion forum is there to enable people to discuss things, to interact, to share opinions and information.

It is only to be expected that other people react or even criticise to the content of anyone's post, including yours.

Discussing opinions about a topic is the whole point of an opinion forum.

BTW, if I address the wrong person there is nothing wrong with correcting that error, is there?

I've noticed Leigh and ColRouge both have this trait whereby participation in a discussion for them means, they give their opinion and they don't care about others' opinions, nor will they listen to reason if it leads them to a different conclusion. They simply speak their mind, then put their head in the sand. Why bother posting anything if this is all you're doing? This is a fundamental communication fault and I think it's shows that insults are thrown around for legitimate reasons. If this board had a block feature, then it would be a simple task of weeding out these people since they may as well be talking to an empty room.

Teeth are useful. They help us eat and if you have real problems rotting teeth can kill. An untreated abcess can lead to sceptceamia [oooh - bloody poisoning].

Modern restorative dentristry was invented in Chicago in 1897, until that time the barber just extracted rotten teeth. From about 1950 there have been enough dentists to service the Australian society.

Why pay for those who haven't any money? Well perhaps its a social safety net thing, we should support all members of our community, even children whose parents can't afford dental care. Then I get back to same old thing of - if you have a user pays society and most people can't afford the service, those people who can afford the service will find that when they need the service the expertise has been lost or not developed.

Dentists are keenly aware of the costs of proposed treatments and they incur massive overheads in setting up their practices. I say this as a patient, who has had the priviledge of attending the dentists' dentist. The dentists' dentist used a rubber dam for every restoration and expected the patient to watch the work being performed. I am not so impressed by the pink and grey decor, with the computer and high techery equipment if hygiene is not of the highest grade.

Leigh

It was your comment "It's their choice: good health or things they don't really need" that I found idiotic.

This infers that you can buy good health. Of course this is untrue. I think from earlier posts you do not like medicare and would prefer a user pays system.

My view is that health is far to important for "the market" to prevail it is one area where there should be no market. Otherwise you are endorsing people profiteering from illness.

Would you care to comment on my opinion, or shoot off a glib selection of weasel words.

And the health system we have is that the health abuser gets all the attention at the expense of those who look after their health. Sure we need a safety net for the very poorest in our community, but health (care can be more efficiently provided by private health insurance, or if you really wish you can save money for your own health insurance. Medicare is another form of authoritarian compulsion, like voting. If all your teeth fall out, stiff luck – get some dentures.

Here in Australia right now we are enjoying a resources boom. I do not see why the Federal Government (i.e. Tony Abbot's Department) cannot do the following in resolving this issue:
1) Marginally increase the Medicare levy
2) Commence forthwith discussions with the Australian Dental Association ( or any other appropriate authority) to create a "package" deal for dental treatment of the disadvantaged where certain dentists can participate in this scheme. This is being done with the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme...why can't it be done for dental treatment

Thanks pragma.

Another thing to consider is the number of children brought into existence as a result of welfare payments and baby bonuses. The government and big business are obsessed with increasing Australia's population, and I think it totally irresponsible of them to encourage welfare babies when it is well understood that these children will be disadvantaged. It is also no secret that the pensions don't even have to go to the children; parents need only drop their kids on the state but keep guardianship to do this. And the change in age limit for welfare payments may only encourage disadvantaged women to have more disadvantaged children. Perhaps the provision of decent health care and education is the one thing that government could do for them.

I would like to see more cost/benefit analyses on the impact of food on health and wellbeing. Junk food sellers know that X% of the population will over indulge, but how do the profits compare with the health costs? Clearly, if the result is a negative benefit for the community when health and welfare costs are considered, then junk food sellers are by definition parasitic, and I strongly believe it to be in the community interest to know if companies contribute more to society than they cost.

But it isn't all bad. The discovery of the tooth protective qualities of calcium phosphopeptides may allow the possibility to reduce the harmfulness of many foods by their use as food additives. This would fit well with a philosophy of supporting the drug lord to the detriment of the addict.

Roarer

Your call for a package deal is totally naive, and would either find very few providers as with the Vets dental scheme, or guarantee a fall in treatment standards. You need only look at the NHS in the UK or the dodgy invention of “preferred providers” by health funds to realise this. And remember that the Queensland Government could almost halve the decay incidence in many areas by mandating the fluoridation of municipal water supplies, a far cheaper option with a very predictable outcome.

Some people like Robg haven't really clued in yet. If you want an efficient, competitive economy you *must* have a healthy workforce. The healthier, the better. Any affliction to the individuals in this workforce will directly affect the quality and quantity of output.

Fester..I do not know where you reside but I reside in NSW and I am eligible to so-called "free" dental treatment (I have a Pensioner Concessions Card) and it has a form of this (proposal). In many instances you attend the "free" health clinic, and there they give you a voucher to have your free dental treatment at selected dentists in your area. I made use of this already...and it works great.The treatment was just as good as if I paid for it. As an example I used this form of free dental treatment some years ago to fill two teeth ....and they are still filled.
As for my proposal if the Federal Government conducts it's negotiations as similiar to that with the drug manufacturing companies under the PBS scheme...then this proposal may be a goer

Steel,

I gather from your comment that you believe a healthy workforce can only be delivered through a socialistic health care system like Medicare? Well, does Australia have an efficient and competitive economy/workforce? No way: ailing manufacturing sector, persistent current account deficits and poor skills base. As to health: the obesity and diabetes pandemic are now likely to reduce future life expectancy, not to mention substantially lowering our quality of life. So much for Medicare – Medicareless is more appropriate. Something for you to ponder Steel is that most people want a life of health and happiness, that is, we don't care about the economy, efficiency or work, only that many of us believe (quite wrongly) that these are the means of attaining health and happiness.

Celivia,

I have always taken the view that the person who RAISES a topic is the one who wants to have a discussion. This means that you share your opinion with him or her, not every Tom, Dick and Harry with an opinion. If you want discussion with others, start a thread of your own. The same applies, in my view, to the other place where contributions are made from outsiders with a point of view to push. We can all make it clear that we disagree or agree by simply stating our own opinions.

I suspect that you and others confuse “discussion” with persuasion – i.e. trying to convince others that they are wrong and you are right. My position is this: you disagree with me, so what? In the end, the majority rules - if we have any influence on the people who make the rules at all, that is.

Steel,

The above also applies to you. I “care about (your) opinions” as much as you care about mine, if you get what I mean. You think one way. I think another. You make no bones about your belief that you are the one with the “reason” and the ability to change the opinions of others. Rather deluded of you, I think!

You seem to be very keen on censorship, too. After wanting Themistocles “reported” for "spamming" on another subject, you now express a desire for people of your choice to be “blocked” or “weeded” out of OLO.

What was it you were saying about a “fundamental communication fault”?

Steve,

I have said elsewhere that you and your ilk are not worth arguing with, but I have to say that there was nothing to infer that good health can be bought in my post. We have it or we don’t; if we don’t, we have to pay to get it fixed. My remarks were directed at people spending money on things they don’t need, rather than on things they do need.

And you think I’m an idiot! Simple comprehension seems to escape you

Leigh, thanks for explaining your view on discussion. I just look at discussion in a different way.
Someone brings up a topic, then everybody who is interested in the topic can contribute and react on the things others have said; people focus on the points that were raised rather than on the person who said it.

For example, anyone can raise a point that I hadn’t thought about or that I find very interesting- I then can ask questions about that point, approve or criticise an aspect of it. For me, that makes the conversation more interesting and more natural.

In real life, sitting down with a group of people, when someone raises a topic, the discussion also naturally flows between participants.
Usually, one does not ignore what others say and just focus on the person who started up the conversation.
I suppose that we all can discuss things in our own way to suit ourselves if the starter of the tread hasn't made clear any special requirements about the discussion method.

Roarer, I didn’t even know about the free dental treatments NSW pensioners are offered. I wonder whether this includes preventive care- i.e. does this include regular (say, annual) check-ups and cleaning of the teeth?

Health care, including dental care, in my opinion, should be a system in where every Australian citizen is being treated equally. The focus should be on the urgency of the treatment for the particular illness.
Should someone be allowed to jump the queue, pushing back patients who are sicker than they are just because the queue-jumper has a larger income, more savings, or is more prestigious?
Not in my opinion- care must be offered to people on medical grounds, not on financial grounds.

Dental treatment for the underprivileged in NSW is extremely fragmented...you have to really run a gauntlet to obtain it. Many miss out on it. I am guessing this is the way in other Australian states. You are made to run a gauntlet I guess in order to dissuade you by way of frustration and perhaps to end up borrowing the money and to obtain treatment privately. Australian (state) governments think that everyone is so naive that they do not recognise this...but some like myself easily notes it.And in a country which is enjoying a resources boom...this is absolutely shameful

Roarer,
thank you, and I totally agree with you that it's shameful that the government of this 'lucky' country has a worthless dental health system in place.

To be honest, I find it quite degrading that underprivileged people should have to 'run a gauntlet' to obtain free dental treatment. It's disrespectful.

The goverment should be there to service all and cater for all people and ignoring the low incomers and pensioners is not good enough.

Costello was quick to boast about the decrease in Australian debt, but anyone can decrease debt when skimping on basics like a good dental health system.

The Australian dental health system can be compared to third world dental care- nothing to boast about.
Shame on the Australian government!

Celivia,

You are the one who encouraged me to comment on comments, remember.

For starters: I think you are being rude, as a non-citizen, criticising our government. We can do that for ourselves, thankyou. “Luck” has nothing to do with this country. If you read Donald Horne’s book, you will find that the idea of a “lucky country” has always been misinterpreted.

If you feel “degraded”, that’s your problem. Do these “underprivileged” people feel degraded? That’s the real question. If they do, the next question is why they cannot access dental care (or any other medical care) without help from the government.

My own mother lives entirely on the aged-pension. She has private medical insurance, including extras for dental. Is my mother a superdooper old person, or is there a question hanging over other people in the same position without insurance?

My mother is not “lucky”, either. She lives within her means. I suggest to you that most Australians with limited income do not live within that income.

If you believe in the “welfare state”, you have come to the wrong place. If you are looking forward to a change of government next year (although you will have no say in it), you will be disappointed if there is a switch to Labor. The situation was just the same under previous Labor governments. And, Labor has to move further to the centre to achieve government. Australians have clearly given them the message on that.

Socialism with free this and free that has proven disastrous all over the world. It’s time to move on and stress the responsibility of the individual. We have a very generous and humane safety net for the really hard up as it is

When I say gauntlet I mean the "gauntlet of frustration". It is quite obvious that governments in Australia treat their constituents as a bagful of naive drips.They provide the so-called service (they cannot do otherwise due to political expediency) but, then they frustrate you in getting that service which serves to limit expenditure as many people seek treatment privately.This way they have their "cake and eat it too"They cannot be accused of not providing that service whilst at the same time they literally do not.And it works very well.

Roarer,
"This way they have their "cake and eat it too".
...and they are able to take big bites out of that cake since they don't have to rely on their own dental service.

Leigh,
"You are the one who encouraged me to comment on comments, remember. Yes, I knew you couldn't resist!

"For starters: I think you are being rude, as a non-citizen, criticising our government."
Only Australians can criticise the government? I suppose permanent residents must smile at failing governments. Heil Howard!

“Donald Horne’s book…”
That would make an interesting read, thank you.

“If you feel “degraded”, that’s your problem.”
I didn't mean that *I* felt degraded! I am not underprivileged myself; I am speaking out of compassion for others.

“… why they cannot access dental care without help from the government. “
Some people living on a lousy pension still have assets before they lose their pension, but others don't.
You’ll never know someone’s personal situation- there may be a myriad of reasons why they can’t pay for private insurance on a tiny pension. Perhaps they need to eat or live somewhere?
Even many pensioners living in their own home have difficulty paying their rates since the real estate boom!

"Socialism with free this and free that has proven disastrous all over the world."
Where? We've always had free dental treatments and health care; my brother got free braces.
It’s called: Welfare. And it’s not 'really' free- people pay taxes.

"...stress the responsibility of the individual. "
Some individuals have not 'made' it to become wealthy and cannot afford private health insurance. Perhaps they've had health problems or mental problems, came from disadvantaged families, were drug addicts, alcoholics, were homeless, or simply lost their business or job, or were non-earning caretakers or mothers looking after families.

Not EVERYBODY earns enough money to be able to pay for private insurance.
Must they therefore be forced to let their teeth rot out of their mouths or die from some illness just because they don't have assets or savings? That sounds very cruel to me!

The Commonwealth Dental Health Program before it was axed by Howard cost about $100 million per year. The removal of this scheme resulted in waiting lists going from a couple of months to 3-5 years.

The amount of money cut is only slightly less than the cost of "chaplains" in schools, the amount of money spent on advertising work choices (before the legislation was even introduced to parliament) would have paid for about 3.5 years. In fact if Howard had decided to live in The Lodge instead of Kirribilli House the cost would have been zero.

Its about priorities and my view is that Howard's are very wrong on this and many other issues.

Whatever you say, Celivia. It's quite obvious that you like to win an argument, so I'll dip out. Who is the most pigheaded between Germans and Dutch has often been debated. As I am only one third German, I have to concede to you.

Yes. I firmly believe that you have a cheek criticising our government, although you will not be dragged off by the secret police for it. It is a matter of manners and good taste, rather than the law.

I'll never know about other's personal situation? Whereas you do, of course.

If the people "needing" welfare are as hard up as you think, they won't be paying taxes, so it is still free to them.

Everbody has enough money to have private insurance in Australia if they are capable of completing a simple budget. They might have to forgo a few luxuries, but it's a matter of priorities.

Perhaps you, with your vast knowdledge of everything, could teach budgeting to the less able?

I do hope that you have checked back on the subject of permanent residents not voting, and my correction of Mr. Maddens carefully skewed information. I repeat that, now, no newly arrived non-citizen, permanent resident or otherwise, can vote whether they came from the UK or Timbucctoo.

And, if you don't mind telling me, why did you leave the Netherlands to live in Australia, where you have done nothing but moan and groan?

OK Leigh I will play your silly game.
Income – Disability Support Pension $517 per fortnight (including pharmaceutical allowance) = $13,442 (same as old age pension)

Rates $1900 per annum
Electricity $1,000 per annum
Phone $480
Car Registration, insurance and maintenance. $1,320
Petrol $800
Food, toiletries and cleaning supplies (for me and companion animal) $5,200
Medical expenses $400
Home and contents insurance $660
Home maintenance $780
Disposable income $17 per week.

Dressed courtesy of Op shops, I hope my fridge hangs in for another year.

See any luxuries I should get rid of? Of course I own my home so I have no mortgage or rent to pay. Can you please show me where I can get health insurance (including dental) for $34 per fortnight, I cannot find one.

PS I did get my teeth fixed for free before my bone marrow transplant as this is this most likely source of infection, resulting in treatment related mortality.

Leigh I haven't declared that my opinion is absolute and static, such as ColRouge and you have done. Neither have I claimed to have the correct answer. If something is outrageous I will probably say something about it and expect a rational response that acknowledges to some degree what I said (rather than obstinacy). I have no interest in censorship. I simply don't want to read the opinions of people who don't know the meaning of discussion. Eg "However, I have no interest in what other people think of that subject or of my opinion"-Leigh

"What was it you were saying about a “fundamental communication fault”?"" Look up at that last quote from you.

"Whatever you say, Celivia. It's quite obvious that you like to win an argument, so I'll dip out."
Too hard to debate isn't it? Especially when you have no ground to stand on.

if the Federal Government requires someone to advise it on how to commence an affodable dental service the whole world would envy...I shall do so now......gratis.
Levy a nominal (and an additional) dental tax (e.g 5% to 10%) on confectionary. This would probably enhance it's coffers to the tune of many millions of dollars for that purpose.It would be quite ironic as well....as the very item which causes dental decay in the community... would be used to commence a workable and national dental treatment scheme

Steve,

Rates $1900. Do you live in a palace? Go somewhere cheaper.

You can’t afford a car and petrol and registration. Get rid of the car.

Get rid of the animal.

Steel,

I confirm my previous comments about you. And don’t claim that you don’t believe in censorship. You have called for it in 2 posts at least.

As for you second add on post, there is no point in continuing a discussion when you are being told that everything you say is wrong. Now, if others think I am wrong, that’s fine; but I’m not going to keep banging my head against the wall.

Just remember this: I think about you the same way you think about me. You go your way, and I’ll go mine

Leigh,
You said: “Who is the most pigheaded between Germans and Dutch has often been debated”.
Cheap generalisation!
I will use your own quotes to reply to this comment:
“I don't know what people like you hope to achieve by calling others names.”
“You and a few other misguided people need to try addressing the subject put up by roarer, and others, rather than abusing people with whom you disagree.“
Thank you, Leigh.

Leigh said: “I firmly believe that you have a cheek criticising our government…”
I firmly believe that I have a right to criticise our government because my husband and I have contributed to the huge salaries of our government ministers. We have worked and paid our taxes for many years, like other worker. If I help pay Howard’s wages I should at least have the right to criticise what he does (or fails to do) with my money. I am proud and happy to be able to pay tax- we need people paying taxes to provide for services such as health care including dental care.

“If the people "needing" welfare are as hard up as you think, they won't be paying taxes, so it is still free to them. “
Almost every time they buy something, including their toothpaste and toothbrushes, they pay GST. No one can survive on GST-free products alone.
Besides, people who are in need have the right to receive financial help- or would you prefer a third world state?
What about some Aboriginal communities, Leigh; are you happy to let them rot in poor communities?

Continued below.

Leigh, rates of $1900 per annum are not outrageous at all- we pay about the same or even a little more just because of the latest real estate boom.

Steve,
I think Leigh would prefer you to move into a cave without electricity or gas and a rat as a pet so you can afford a blob of amalgam.
Either that, or go back in time to home dentistry where you tie your tooth to the doorknob to be able to pull it out.

Unfortunately, some people in Australia actually have to resort to these practices because of the disgraceful dental care system thanks to the government's priorities.

Roarer,
Not a bad idea! The GST on lollies can help pay for dental care services. Will have to think about that idea some more.

I’m not sure, but is part of tobacco excise being allocated to cancer research or health care?
I once read that somewhere in the USA that a whole cancer institute has been financed just from the excise on tobacco.

I don’t know much about GST allocations and wonder if others know whether some of it ends up in health?

Celivia,

If I told you something was black, you would argue that it's white. You used so many words to do this that you were not able to explain to me why you are living here and not in the Netherlands. Never mind. As I said to Steel who pinched a quote from you (never original, poor old Steel) there is a limit to how long I'm prepared to bang my head against the wall. I'll leave you in peace to live in your own little world.

If you really want to know my position on aboriginal people (you did ask that, although you couldn't make room to answer my question) I have posted my opinion several times. In fact, there is one today if you would like to tell me again what a terrible fellow I am.

As for your "cheap generalisation" shot, hell's bells, I even admit that I'm pigheaded myself, but that's not good enough for you.

Please convey my commiserations to your husband. There's another "cheap shot" for you.

Leigh
Given your lack of knowledge about Council Rates I assume you are a renter. $1900 is in fact on the low side compared to other areas near where I live, regional Qld.

Even if I wanted to move how can I. It would cost $30,000 in stamp duty and agents fees. I would have to pay someone to pack and move my belongings.

If I do not own a car how would I get to my weekly doctor appointments? Taxi? Ambulance? How could I shop for myself? Hitchhike with my disabled parking sticker on my forehead?

Sorry my dog is “family” and is not negotiable.

Your comments show you have very little comprehension of the people struggling on welfare or those “working poor” who have similarly small amounts of disposable income.

As I stated before it is only a question of about $100 million a year to restore the Commonwealth dental program.

Compare it to this:

"The Government will provide $494.6 million over four years to develop and implement the Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs' Systems for People IT programme in order to address the significant shortfalls in the department's existing information systems identified in the Palmer and Comrie Reports."

They can find nearly half a billion dollars for computers but won't pay for people to get their teeth fixed.

Do you consider this OK?

Steve,

Another wrong assumption. I am not a renter, nor have I ever been. I live in SA where my wife and I have always paid council rates and now have a small, villa-type residence, which is ample for our retirement. We have owned and occupied 3 different properties over the last 40 years. We pay about half what you pay. Perhaps you could move to SA?

Your second assumption is also wrong. I am now retired, but I always worked for a boss, and never came anywhere near the so-called average wage. Now, as then, I live within my means and according to my priorities. And, as I have said, my mother is a pensioner.

If your priorities are different from mine, that is entirely your business. I still maintain that private health insurance is possible if you change your priorities. You cannot expect other people to help you out.

When I say “you”, I’m talking about people in general who bemoan the fact that they cannot squeeze more out the government, and that’s what you, I believe, have been talking about.

I have not taken your particular illness into account. That is another subject, and only open for discussion if you wish it.

Best wishes.

Leigh, sunshine,

"If I told you something was black, you would argue that it's white."
No I wouldn't!
Couldn't resist; just having a little fun with ya, Leigh.

I can't take you seriously- nobody in their right mind would argue that pensioners or people on welfare would be able to afford Private Health Insurance in Australia.

My mum, who's a pensioner, receives more than twice the amount Australian pensioners get. She can have a reasonably nice life and go on holiday sometimes; 70+ get taxis at less than public transport rates- this is what our elderly deserve for working and paying taxes all their lives and looking after us!

Why do you think it's OK for your mother to live in poverty- why don't you stand up to the government and tell them your mum deserves better?
Why would Steve and others have to live in a cave with a rat to please the rich?
Greed, greed, greed!

Look at the provisions the government ministers have made for them selves: payrises when it suits them while others starve, and they'll live in wealth for the rest of their lives. I don't think they deserve this special treatment.

The reason I came to Australia was for my husband's business, mainly. I don't really want to go into detail about it because it's irrelevant and personal.

And Leigh, even though I have a lot of things against the government, it's not against Australia or Australians, generally. There are heaps of great things about Australia as well. We don't know yet whether we'll be going back to Holland to live, so I want to keep my Dutch nationality. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?

Australians are lovely, Australia is anice country, I just think we need a change of government and won't hesitate to express my opinion and have the right to do so because we're part of the society and communities.

Australia's government is not the only one that fails; other Western countries including Holland have or have had crappy governments as well, which I would criticise if I lived there.

Leigh

What I am talking about is treating teeth the same as any other part of the body.

If people break a little finger they get it fixed, if they break a tooth they do not.

If they get an abscess on thier bum they get treatment, gum no.

Plus it is about restoring something that used to be there not squeezing the govt.

Plus it is not much money in the scheme of things.

My illness, leukeamia, does complicate things as I need prophylactic antibiotics each time I go to my Dental hygienist. Which I do every 3 months (One of the many reasons I need a car).

Steve I have to agree with you on this.

Teeth as it may be are a health problem and it is getting worse.

We find that these pollies dont really care why should they they would have private care.
No teeth cant eat unless one would call slurping or using a spoon on some type of mashed up meal.
It has come to a stage where it is an epidemic due to dental problems.
Just because you do not have a problem now doesnt mean you wont, unless you already have false teeth.

I can find the money easily from government but they wont like it.

Pollies have forgotton the following.

Ask not what your country can do for you
But what you can do for your country

Its already here.

I worked hard to get my quals, to get a good job and build myself a career. But the costs of living in this country at this time have gone stupid. I used to see a dentist every 18 months or so, but have have not been for at least 5 years now. I just cant afford to go, the cost of housing, food, fuel, taxes and simply living have erroded my $ to the point of being now Neg $250 a fortnight. Thats right, dipping into credit card debt to the tune of -$500 a month just to eat, sleep, and get to work.

Leigh"I confirm my previous comments about you. And don’t claim that you don’t believe in censorship. You have called for it in 2 posts at least."
My desire to be able to screen your comments is based on your own statements, as quoted somewhere above. I have made no similar statements myself. And no, that's not censorship. Censorship is when I want the forum to block your comments from everyone. That is not in my interest. I hate to spell out bs like this, but your obstinacy forces it. Do you even read what people write?

Leigh"Now, if others think I am wrong, that’s fine; but I’m not going to keep banging my head against the wall."
Irony ftl... -_-

Steel,
Leigh forgets we live in a democracy.

Stryker, welcome.
Indeed, many people are, unfortunately, in the same position as you are.
Not only low-incomers and pensioners cannot afford to go to the dentist, but every hard working middle income earners with a car and a house can barely scape by.

We took out private health insurance years ago because we could afford it, but for the past few years we've been paying for it by taking it out of our mortgage so that our family of 4 can go for our yearly check-ups and cleaning of our teeth and have this safety net behind us.
We wouldn't have been able to afford private health cover if we hadn't bought our own home or if there hadn't been a property boom.
I wonder if we're doing the right thing; it's a substantial amount of money and if you count the interest (because we borrow the health cover fees) on top of it, I wonder if it's all worth it.

It's not surprising that many people cannot afford health insurance. I'm not sure if we can keep doing this- keep borrowing to pay for health insurance. There are always gaps as well!

Generally, we have an inequal health system, based on capitalism. It's totally unfair and "sick" that sick poor people are being pushed down the line on the waiting list by other sick people who just have a little more money.

BTW, now we're on the topic,
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20925436-29277,00.html
What do people think of Rudd's offer of free dental care?

I wonder what he imagines needs to magically be done to practically materialise this idea- there are about half a million patients who've been waiting for years to be treated already; are there sufficient trained dentists to cope with this stream of patients as well as the new low incomers and pensioners? It will be no quick solution, of course- is it likely to work long term?

Does it matter

What is your opinion of Labor

What is your opinion of Liberals

What is your opinion of Rudd

What is your opinion of Howard

Now these are questions you must ask.

Can they be trusted
Do you really believe them
if so can pigs really fly

are they just saying what you want to hear
are they really going to make good on their promise

I had health insurance when I was responsible for my children. When my children became responsible for themselves, I stopped the health insurance.

I have motor vehicle insurance. Because I have a good driving record I have been on maximum no claims bonus for as long as I can remember. I have home and contents insurance. Because my home has deadlocks and an alarm system, I get a good discount. I think that most of us would accept this discount system as fair and equitable.

When I was working full time and had other responsibilities, I had term life assurance. In other words, my life was insured but there was no built-in lump sum payment at age ??, if I survived until then. This type of insurance is relatively cheap and, in my opinion, represents far better value than "whole of life". Because I am a lifetime non-smoker, I got 40% discount on my premium. Yes, you read it correctly, 40%.

My sporting interests at that time included spearfishing and [social level] triathlon, both allegedly involving some degree of danger. As a then subbie in the building trade, I was also working on roofs. These things counted for nothing in the calculation of my premium, so presumably they were of little or no significance when it came to actual risk assessment.

But we can't get any discount on health insurance, because successive Australian governments will not allow it. So my health premium, if I had chosen to have it, would have lumped me in as an equal risk to the heavy smoking, heavy drinking, consistent junk food eating chronically unfit, [due to their own lifestyle choices], couch potatoes.

cont

I don't criticise the lifestyles of others and there are certainly no guarantees in life, but we can shorten the odds and lengthen the odds, when it comes to health. But, just as with many other insurances, I believe that known wise choices deserve to be rewarded with a discount.

I also support the suggestion of taxing lollies [which I enjoy eating, so I would pay a little extra here] to subsidise an adequate dental service for all Australians.

As a general principle, we can't have a "user pays" system for healthcare and then claim to be a civilised country. But we could have an "abuser pays" system, with the real life villains, the manufacturers/marketers of known grossly unhealthy lifestyle choices, being taxed to pay for their detrimental effects on the community at large.

Well i for one believe that the cost of health insurance can come down.

but that would be neither here nor there if this party doesnt make it