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The Forum > General Discussion > Animal welfare V Food production. Where do we draw the line!

Animal welfare V Food production. Where do we draw the line!

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The old animal wefare lobby is at it again and this time they may be looking into food production and the well being of the animals it deploys.

Now while I dislike cruelty to animals, food production is a whole differnt ball game.

Ban live exports, for sure, they cost us many jobs, but ban many ways that our food is supplied, now your stepping on thin ice.

Either we produce affordable foods, or risk an influx of imported, often sub standard food stuffs.

Battery hens know no different, they are bred for food.

Pigs are also bred for food, they are not pets, nor should they be treated as such.

Now by all means go after those who disobey the laws, but seriously, just because you don't like eggs from caged birds, doesn't give you the right to make our eggs un-affordable to most people.

Food production must stay affordable, or we will all suffer.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 29 July 2009 8:16:51 PM
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rehctub
"Now while I dislike cruelty to animals, food production is a whole differnt ball game."

Why is it a different ball game? You either dislike cruelty to animals or you don't there is no middle ground.

Not everything that is important comes down to jobs or profits. Prices, economic fluctuations are all human constructs capable of adaptation.

Slavery was banned because it was inhumane and morally bankrupt. The effect on the economy was irrelevant.

"If only we can overcome cruelty, to human and animal, with love and compassion we shall stand at the threshold of a new era in human moral and spiritual evolution - and realize, at last, our most unique quality: humanity."
Jane Goodall

“Very little of the great cruelty shown by men can really be attributed to cruel instinct. Most of it comes from thoughtlessness or inherited habit. The roots of cruelty, therefore, are not so much strong as widespread. But the time must come when inhumanity protected by custom and thoughtlessness will succumb before humanity championed by thought. Let us work that this time may come.“
Albert Schweitzer
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 29 July 2009 11:04:49 PM
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Well perhaps this should be approached from another angle, that being that before we alter the ways that our food is produced, we place a total ban on imported animal food products. Maybe this is a better way. At least then we have the choice to grow our own if we can't afford to buy farmed products.

At the moment one can still buy eggs for under $3, imagine if the only ones available were 'free range'. Firstly, the price would go from say $4.50 to more like $6 or $7 due to a monopoly. Many people simply would have to go without.

At the moment (in brisbane) you cannot have hens if your lot is under 600m2, yet, there is a constant push for smaller lots, even as small as 300m2, all in the name of 'high density living'.

Maybe these laws need to be addressed in the process. As a kid I remember having chickens, turkeys, even a pig or two. What was wrong with those days. I think mum bought eggs once or twice a year.

What I am getting at is you can't just change things without offering an affordable alternative, hopefully not imported.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 30 July 2009 5:58:38 AM
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I say there should be a shift to the naturally occurring meat sauce.
Donkey, Camel, Feral pig, Kangaroo, Emu. All of these valuable meat supplies end up overseas. We should be eating our own. The consumption of a 4 month old animal, like lamb is disgusting.
Posted by Desmond, Thursday, 30 July 2009 8:21:10 AM
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People should be forced to slaughter and eat their pets until they are all gone, thereby giving their non-pet owning neighbours some peace and quiet.
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 30 July 2009 10:59:49 AM
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I tend to agree with rehctub, farm animals have been bred and cross bred to suit human desires for meat (taste and tenderness) for generations similarly horses as used for racing and riding (and eating, if you are french or desperate).

I despise wanton cruelty but the notion of ascribing to a chook an appreciation of its environment, culture and life expectations, similar to a human, is bizarre to the point of being demented.

I personally enjoy kangaroo meat. It might be an acquired taste, being particualrly lean and flavourful but it is a taste I have acquired.

The alternate to PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 30 July 2009 11:14:12 AM
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If free range eggs were the only available they would have to be more competitive. Besides Barn Laid eggs are the practical solution. It removes the cruelty without becoming impractical.

There is enormous room for improvement in food production and when people need to do things they tend to develop innovations to make it more economically feasible. Unfortunately the most vocal people with regard to cruelty drop out of the market as vegetarians and don't exert the same type of consumer force as they could if they didn't. If the people eating barn laid eggs had just stopped eating eggs it would not be an alternative. Luckily with eggs a different approach was taken. I don't think there is an identifiable meat eating group calling for more humane production (except of course live exporting).
Posted by mjpb, Thursday, 30 July 2009 11:44:55 AM
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I owned and operated a travelling farm show for several years, and as a consequence, I am now a vegetarian.
It's not that I don't accept the necessity of one animal dying, so another can live; it's about the manner of their dying, and the unnecessary cruelty involved.
I see nothing morally wrong with eating kangaroo for instance, if there are too many of them and if they are cleanly killed; shot in the paddock with no warning and no pain.
But I really don't understand how it's right and proper not to be cruel to a dog or a cat or a canary, but food animals are different.
We found free range pigs to be odourless, extremely affectionate, very intelligent and unbelievably funny. Again, if shot cleanly in the paddock, without warning...
In the early days, we sold 2 'backfatters' to a butcher, and sent them on to the abattoir. When we rang 2 days later about the cheque, we found that they still hadn't been killed. At the butcher's request, they had been left without food and water for 2 days, to get rid of some of that fat. We were paid on dressed weight.
Never again.
In primitive cultures all over the world, there was almost a universal tradition to honour the prey, and thank them for giving up their lives, so the hunter's family could live. It's that empathy, that ability to imagine what another creature is feeling, which I believe defines Humanity.
Or some of us, at least.
Posted by Grim, Thursday, 30 July 2009 12:53:58 PM
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Have you ever thought of animal welfare in relation to how it affects your welfare as the one eating their meat?

There are not too many people that dont love crackling. Pigs are not skinned like sheep and cattle, they are only dehaired. I would prefer my crackling came from a pig out on pasture than one forced to marinate in its own crap.

I would rather eat an animal that produced muscle naturally thru exercise than one that was fed growth promoters and hormones because the confinement of the pigs prohibits natural growth.

I would prefer to eat meat from animals that have had a relatively happy life with minimal disease and stress burdens than from those that are only kept alive with drugs until slaughter.

Yep, my welfare depends a lot on theirs - if I want to live a long, health life.
Posted by PF, Thursday, 30 July 2009 12:54:06 PM
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*The consumption of a 4 month old animal, like lamb is disgusting.*

Desmond, lambs are commonly 7-11 months old when we eat them, but
they are certainly tasty :)

Now you are going to have to explain what is disgusting about that,
for the issue is of course suffering, not death.

To put it another way, if you are hit by a proverbial bus tomorrow,
you won't be around to care if it hit you are not. Next thing
you'll be worm food.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 30 July 2009 12:56:46 PM
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“The consumption of a 4 month old animal, like lamb is disgusting.”

Damn it Desmond, I love lamb. Yabby… ya farming pedant.

“People should be forced to slaughter and eat their pets until they are all gone, thereby giving their non-pet owning neighbours some peace and quiet.”

Well then what you’re really saying is that people with annoying pets should eat them immediately Leigh. You have my full support.

“I would prefer to eat meat from animals that have had a relatively happy life with minimal disease and stress burdens than from those that are only kept alive with drugs until slaughter.”

Agreed PF. Since that Swine Flu thread when I joined OLO I have been much more selective with meat.

Which reminds me, not one person back then could tell me who polices this industry.

So who has rules for keeping, breeding, killing etc animals?

Who monitors it?

Who enforces these (if there are any) rules?
Posted by The Pied Piper, Thursday, 30 July 2009 7:57:30 PM
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The idea that the only way we can achieve sustainability is by ignoring issues of humane animal husbandry lacks compassion.

Some possible ideas:
- less intensive animal production in a mixed farming integrated system set up rather than our narrow view of monocultures.
- Concentrate on local production centres rather than centralised mega-operations.
- as rechtub said ban imports of animal/animal products we can produce here without having to compete with nations where labour is exploited and where there are limited if no animal cruelty regulations.
- this ties in with population sustainability and how much we can produce humanely.

There is no excuse for animal cruelty in food production yet we all turn a blind eye to it because of some misguided allegiance to a highly flawed economic system.
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 30 July 2009 9:20:41 PM
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So who has rules for keeping, breeding, killing etc animals?

In qld it is called 'Safe Food QLD' and in other states I think it is the same eg SF nsw.

As for being selective with meat, it has been proven time and time again that there is no link between meat and swine flue. It's the old case of 'don't let the truth get in the way of a good story'.

Now regarding meat production. Our meat industry exports up to 85% of what we produce, not counting live exports, why? because we have to as our population is to small to consume what we produce and our life style is to high for us not to.

Now given that this industry generates billions each and every year, creates thousands of jobs, tell me, where is that going to come from if we stop exporting.

If we change the ways that we farm meats we will simply become un-competitive. So who or what is going to fill the void?

What other avenues do we have to fill the thousands of jobs at risk?

The government makes millions each year just in taxes alone from the MI, where are these taxes going to come from.

Someone mentioned pigs marinating in their own filth.

Utter rubbish! Go and visit a modern piggery.

1st, you won't be allowed in cause of quaranteen laws.

If you do you will change your mind, they are very clean otherwise they go broke.

They have suspended, slatted floors, for this very reason.

Remember. For every action, there is a reaction. This one will hurt!
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 31 July 2009 6:42:24 AM
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Take a little visit at this piggery rechtub http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuyRXWxBKYA

I'd call that well and truely marinating wouldnt you?

This one is in WA and owned by a board member of Australian Pork Limited - the peak industry body that has control of the 'rules' for how pigs are raised.

Now who's talking rubbish?
Posted by PF, Friday, 31 July 2009 7:14:15 AM
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Rehctub:”Now given that this industry generates billions each and every year, creates thousands of jobs, tell me, where is that going to come from if we stop exporting.”

Just don’t "live" export, surely doing all the slaughtering etc and packing here will create many more jobs. Now ages ago Yabby said it wouldn’t work and they couldn’t find workers where he was at… times may have changed now..?

“If we change the ways that we farm meats we will simply become un-competitive. So who or what is going to fill the void?”

Er… if we do not inflict cruelty on animals (sorry I just fully believe PF here) then we might not be as profitable?

So would you would advocate stepping up the cruel conditions to make even more money.

“In qld it is called 'Safe Food QLD' and in other states I think it is the same eg SF nsw.”

Wonder how often they inspect, shut down, and impose fines. Are they like the workers who inspect restaurants and stuff?

“As for being selective with meat, it has been proven time and time again that there is no link between meat and swine flu. It's the old case of 'don't let the truth get in the way of a good story'.”

Sorry, I meant selective as in more expensive rather than which kind. As for the Swine Flu, I’ve been ordered to go Dr’s and I just don’t want to. I have decided it is a bad cold.

Pelican:”There is no excuse for animal cruelty in food production yet we all turn a blind eye to it because of some misguided allegiance to a highly flawed economic system.”

This is probably akin to the same reasons that created The Forgotten (living in intensive farms for children) and the state wards being ignored now.
Posted by The Pied Piper, Friday, 31 July 2009 7:41:21 AM
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I would love to be a vegetarian, I really would. I even tried it when I was about 18 - got very ill instead, being a dumb teenager and not getting a balanced diet.

Now I consider from whom I buy my meat. Where I live in the Yarra Ranges is a butcher who specialises in free range pigs, chickens, and lambs that feed on salt-bush in the Mallee and cattle that have not been "processed" in feed lots before slaughter - these animals get to live as freely as possible. Sure the meat costs a little more, although I did a comparison with Safeway and really the cost difference is negligible - I just buy less meat. And the flavour.... well I won't be converting to vegetarianism any time soon.

BTW, I have actually been shooting; shot, skinned, prepared my own rabbit for a very tasty casserole. No I don't make a habit of it (I don't like killing, although I did enjoy hitting targets), just one of those things I did to know that I could if needed. So no patronising comments, boys, I am not afraid of blood and not at all squeamish. My point is the same as Pelican's:

"There is no excuse for animal cruelty in food production yet we all turn a blind eye to it because of some misguided allegiance to a highly flawed economic system."
Posted by Fractelle, Friday, 31 July 2009 9:22:32 AM
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Sure Rehctub would be against live exports, for butchers act out
of self interest and want their livestock cheaper, so competition
is not welcome. If its about jobs as claimed, does Rehctub drive
an Australian made car? 80% of the population don't.

Yes Fractelle, there have been some developments with the live
trade. Who knows, perhaps all my shouting and arguing on OLO
even did some good :)

Fact is that AA eventually got off their arses and got active in
Jordan. According to them "significant" outcomes have been achieved.

According to them "local workers have embraced more humane processing
systems for both cattle and sheep"

Sheesh, I remember Nicky claimed that all this was impossible.

Even pre slaughter stunning has now been accepted in Jordan!

Yabby was correct all along :)

PF, I thought you might have been out of the pig business, for I
saw your place advertised in one of the farming papers in May.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 31 July 2009 9:50:05 AM
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Will never be out, just moving on to other things - all still pig related.
Posted by PF, Friday, 31 July 2009 9:54:54 AM
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I ain't related to no pig.
Animal rights and greens should be taken as over the top type of people. They wouldn't really know. Someone witnesses something and they tell someone else and before long the whole concept has changed.
The move is now to breed pigs with no legs, housing would be far more space effective and moving the rotund animal would be all mechanized.
Posted by Desmond, Friday, 31 July 2009 11:09:44 AM
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Sure Rehctub would be against live exports, for butchers act out
of self interest and want their livestock cheaper, so competition
is not welcome.
Well at least we are getting somewhere yabby, you do recognise that LE costs jobs.

does Rehctub drive
an Australian made car? 80% of the population don't.

No, I drive an imported ford, only becasue they don't make them here. Besides, how many componants of an aussie made car are imported. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones mate!

PF. Was your piggery anything like this one. Does this only occurr in WA? Is this fottage recent, I saw no dates?

Besides, I don't support this type of farming, so what's your problem?
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 31 July 2009 8:10:07 PM
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Rehctub I dont have the problem, this is your comment
'Someone mentioned pigs marinating in their own filth.

Utter rubbish! Go and visit a modern piggery. '

This is a modern piggery and the matter is currently before the courts. You should also have a look at http://www.australianpigfarmers.com.au/archives
Posted by PF, Friday, 31 July 2009 8:29:29 PM
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*Well at least we are getting somewhere yabby, you do recognise that LE costs jobs.*

Not so Rehctub, but I did deal with your claimed concerns about jobs
being the issue.

*People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones mate!*

Yup I agree! Now just you remember that :)

But of course the WA meat processing industry has just badly shot
itself in the foot and are now starting to realise it. Due to
the lack of competition (anything that wasn't going on a boat),
they paid as little as possible, well below the Eastern States rates
for lamb, mutton etc. The saleyards were little more then a joke,
for years and years.

Now they are suddenly finding that farmers have been
quietly liquidating their flocks and switching to all crops.
The sheep population is down 10 million or so and unless they
change their ways, it will keep going down. So they might learn
the hard way.

I put in alot of effort some years ago, to get them to change their
ways, but nobody was interested. Just screw the grower, was the
game plan it seems.

So right now they have to be really nice to me and pay me record
prices for my lambs, as I am one of the few farmers who has a flock
of wool free sheep, so is not affected by the mulesing saga.

Last time I was at the meatworks, the boys were standing around not
very impressed, for their past ignorance meant that they were
down to working 2 days a week, as sheep have been replaced with
grain production
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 31 July 2009 8:41:40 PM
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I'm all for banning or at least restricting live exports. As rehctub argued, it takes slaughtering jobs offshore. I understand that there are all sorts of halal requirements and the like but realistically, if they want our meat surely they'll settle for an onshore halal abattoir? I'm probably showing my complete ignorance of the industry here, but it's a thought.

The other reason is one of animal cruelty. Quite often the Port of Townsville is graced with the presence of cattleships waiting to be loaded with their live cargo. After a day or so, I can smell the filth from halfway up the Strand. What sort of conditions are these cattle living in by the time they reach their destinations? Even if efforts are made to maintain some sort of decency, you can't tell me that they have a happy tropical cruise, after which they are knocked peacefully on the head to dream of green meadows for all eternity.
Posted by Otokonoko, Friday, 31 July 2009 9:07:22 PM
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* I'm probably showing my complete ignorance of the industry here, but it's a thought.*

Very true words spoken by you Oto, very true indeed :)
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 31 July 2009 9:13:03 PM
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I guess what sets me aside from many others is that I acknowledge my ignorance. That's part of why I'm here - I have much to learn!
Posted by Otokonoko, Friday, 31 July 2009 10:36:41 PM
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"I guess what sets me aside from many others is that I acknowledge my ignorance. That's part of why I'm here - I have much to learn!"

Well you can just get in line Otoko.

Desmond:”I ain't related to no pig.”

Prove it.
Posted by The Pied Piper, Friday, 31 July 2009 10:41:52 PM
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Yabby, I fully understand your situation, esspecially the previous years. I don't blame you for live export, it has been one of few options available as WA is to far away from the rest of Aus to be price competitive. I am not against you personally, just LE itself.

I have had five butcher shops, some huge, up to 15 tons of hanging meat per week and, never in my entire 20 + years have I brought directly from a farmer or an abbitor as I believe everyone has to make a living. If I buy direct, people loose jobs. This is why I am against LE, nothing more.

Now back to WA. I used to buy a product branded Q-Lamb from WA. Fantastic product, very tender, full of flavour, very expensive, but, it took up to three weeks to arrive, even then I didn't know exactly what I would receive until it arrived.

I currently buy Tasmanian lambs,as they are hormone and seriod free and in my opinion the best. They are very expensive but I charge accordingly.

Perhaps WA should be seeking a 'point of difference' with their lambs, as this may justify the freight costs.
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 1 August 2009 6:48:22 AM
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*I am not against you personally, just LE itself.*

I know that Rehctub. I am not against you personally either.
These days I avoid the LE topic, as it really has been done
to death on OLO, for years and frigging years lol. But you
mentioned it a few times, now, so I thought I would just
restate that the situation in WA is very different from
yours over East. But if I can avoid it, I don't really want
to go over all that old ground again.

*never in my entire 20 + years have I brought directly from a farmer or an abbitor as I believe everyone has to make a living. If I buy direct, people loose jobs*

That's nice in theory, but our economy does not work that way. Fact
is that farmers are at the bottom of the food chain and unless they
stick up for themselves, everyone does well and they get the scraps,
so many shut their doors, certainly here in WA.

So these days we benchmark, so that we can clearly see, who is getting
robbed and who is doing the robbing.

Last year when the saleyard price crashed to 2.50 or so a kg, I helped
a friend set up a direct marketing business, which even cuts out
blokes like you :) This guy picks out the lambs he wants in the
district himself, has them slaughtered and packed, then home delivers
them. Last I heard he's moving 100 a week and both farmers and consumers
are thrilled, because its value for money all round.

Who is the big loser? Shopping Centre owners who charge crazy rents.
I am not about to shed tears for them lol. Its a great business
plan, you should try it.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 1 August 2009 3:26:07 PM
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Humans have now transferred the H1N1 virus to pigs and infected a 2,000 sow intensive piggery.

Another damn good reason we should give more thought to animal welfare - because ultimately it is going to affect ours.

Is this nature kicking us in the arse and say 'wake up to yourselves'?
Posted by PF, Sunday, 2 August 2009 9:02:57 AM
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PF
Farming is all about using the facility to its best potential and, consumers ultimately decide the fait of farms in this country as they simply will not pay for what it is you are wanting.

Bacon is a prime example. 90% of the bacon produced in Australia is made from improted pork. Why, becasue our farmers simply can not compete with the price of the imported meats, yet, if the consumer were to boycot imported meats and pay the extra for home grown, there would be no problem.

You see a pig farmer has a shed, say 500m2. Now grower pigs, as they are known, are placed in this shed and fed for around 23 weeks. Thats 2 turn arounds per year.

Now if you limmit the amount of pigs they can put in these sheds by say 20%, up goes the price of the pigs and, ultimately, the end product. Just for the records, Australia's demand for pork last year saw a shortfall of approx 20,000 pig per week. Imagine how that number would have grown if you limmit their farming practices.

The reason for this is due mainly to the number of pig farmers that have quit the industry as they simply could not compete with the imports.

Remember, you can have alomst anything you like, you just have to pay for it.
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 3 August 2009 3:55:37 PM
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Thanks for the tips on pig farming ....

You are right about one thing rehctub, consumers will ultimately decide the fate of farms in this country.

"as they simply will not pay for what it is you are wanting." Its not what I want, its what I do and demand is insatiable.

The pigs industry has been operating behind closed doors for so long that consumers are now realising that they have not been getting what they thought they had paid for - wholesome, humanely farmed meat.

The boot is going to be driven in hard to the pork industry this week. This latest outbreak is sending people into a frenzy. Media is driving it and will add to the woes with Jamies Saves Our Bacon this wednesday night. I believe there is also a big australian story yet to be screened.

Tell what you know about Paylean or Reporcin. The australian pork industry is propped up on it yet these drugs are banned in over 160 countries. Smithfield foods stop using it 3 weeks before they send a shipment to china yet in australia, there is only a 12 hour withholding period. Would people be happy to pay a little more to know they are not comsuming these drugs?
Posted by PF, Monday, 3 August 2009 4:25:12 PM
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