I’m a 50+yr old aussie male, an ex’ and a parent, and somewhat overweight of course, like most of my ilk.
However, I have been a keen observer of the female of my species for 40 odd years now. I live in a tropical city with a large tourist industry, and so I get to see quite a cross-section of them, gee it’s tough, due to the climate they tend not to rug up.
The great trade-mark of the senior male has always been the “beer-belly”, or pot-belly as it’s known elsewhere. Nowadays, it seems to me, this is becoming more characteristic of the young female, not as gross, more of a pot-bellette. I’m sure it was nowhere near as common years ago, but perhaps it’s a matter of perception?
It is noticeable, many males here discuss the phenomenon. Perhaps it’s always been there, just the costumary hid it, perhaps it’s a side-effect of our society’s trend towards obesity? The odd thing about it is that it seems to be a largely female thing, the guys of that age group tend to either have a normal physique without one, or are just overall overweight. A long-term side-effect of continual use of the pill?
Wadda ya reckon?

i think you oughta get a life
and stop judging women by your own standards.

Maximiliion: << ...perhaps it’s a matter of perception? >>

Yes, I think so.

Sheesh! And I think you ought to go to an Art Gallery or look at magazines from pre-1960's, or call up great sculpture on the 'Net, or not just the Great Masters but, again, pre-1960 artists, painters and photographers.

Well Max you put your foot in it wipe your shoes.
Or did you? I am without shame early sixty's but feeling 30.
And on a diet, the beer gut will be the last to go but go it will.
If you look, truly look, over weight is not sex specific.
For too many years I lied to myself, its only once, I deserve it, it won't hurt.
And grabbed that bag two pies because lunch did not happen and the chips and something on the way home,e.
Take it from me, fat people never face the truth.
And telling a woman she is fat is looking for trouble, if its true more trouble.
We eat too much, we drink too much, we say live well and forget the future till we understand today is the future our only assured future.
And most importantly we use food for comfort and to help with stress and depression, if we talk about it we just one day do as I have, turn that stubbornness into a refusal not to change the way we eat.

Whistler, that was a meaningless statement, even by your standards.
The rest, you seem to have missed my point altogether, I was not commenting on women’s overall physique, or women in general, just the apparent prevalence of the “pot-petite” among the younger set, and/or their willingness to display it. I knew there’d be sensitivities touched, but was hoping for a more considered response. I am more familiar with the Arts than most, my mother was an art-teacher, and an artist in her own right, and I’m familiar with Rubenesque women and etc and etc.
Oh well, I suppose most here just can’t get their heads around discussing something like this without getting personal. Objectivity goes out the window when this subject is brought up.

Max
Thinking analytically, could it be because in years past younger bodies were more covered and now the young are not as reticent in revealing a bit of flesh around the midriff.

If you believe the statistics we are getting fatter overall so maybe your observations living in a warmer climate are testament to that.

Living in the colder climes I don't see much in the way of pot-bellettes but then maybe I am not looking as close ;).

Hey Max, Yes it is probably the fashion now emphasizing shapes – the hip high jeans. My daughter (17) and all her friends who are here so often I suspect some have moved in without telling me range from stick thin to healthy but I wouldn’t call any overweight – well not this year. All have the bellette and slight to moderate muffin top (you know the bit of flesh on their sides) except for one who is probably in the throws of an eating disorder.

I think all of them are on the pill (I so proud) or have a rod in.

They’re very pretty though, prettier than I remember the average young female being in the 80’s. More access to make-up and nicer clothing, fake tans, hair dye, better acne products? And yeah all the boyfriends seem to be skinny boys, including my 18 year old. The boys seem just as conscious as the girls of their appearance.

When they were all at school I saw a much greater range of teens and yeah girls going through the puppy fat stages who have now trimmed down. But the fat teens are fat, they didn’t spend long at chubby but zoomed straight through it.

Myself, I am strange, I am an average five foot six and since a teenager my weight cruises from 65kg to 77kg and back then forward again. I have to have three different clothing sizes available. The more kids here I loose weight, less kids and it goes up so I guess it’s all physical movement with me rather than food but I cannot turn down a wood fired pizza ever.

wriggle and squirm.

i have a belly, some women have a belly,
my belly is fine,
a woman's belly is not, must be the pill.
gormless, boorish, misogynist junk.

wouldn't happen if women had their own legislature.
women would receive the respect
to which they are entitled.

the sooner this filth is removed
from Australian society the better.

Dear Max,

Pot bellettes are a sign of the times - both
in the fashions that are worn that attract
unflattering attention - and in the lack
of physical activity and exercise that some
people's lifestyles tend to be. If you eat more
than you burn off - you're going to gain weight.
Not many young adults these days walk, or exercise.
Fast fatty foods - tends to be the norm for many young
adults.

Girls always put on a little weight during adolescence,
and being a little chubby is better than looking like
a coat rack. However, being obese is a different story -
that's not good for their health and if they're over 80ks
they're going to be headed for health problems in their
future.

Still, some people find a pot belly on a woman sexy,
it's all about beauty being in the eyes of the beholder.
Others think that Sumo wrestlers are hot.

Personally, I think that it's a lifestyle choice -
and I wouldn't worry especially about young girls -
who will hopefully lose their "puppy fat," as they grow
older. It's only when it looks like becoming a health
issue - that something needs to be done.

To each his own.

G'Day All; Well I have a fat gut some by excesive wieght,bit more because of an accident that stretched my back & gut muscles & the last is that I had my gut cut open. Now I have been saying for a few years now if the young people want an overhanging belly keep wearing thier waste line as low as they do & habit will surely take over as they age because even what was considered trim in my day get the bellies appearing. A lot of it comes from dress sense,lifestyle, eating habits & less exercise. The whole point is each to thier own & we all need to get on with life if this is what this generation wants & it is not hurting you,me or anyone else except themselves so be it.Thanks for your time & may your Lord shine on you all well. Dave

Have you forgotten step-ins. You know those things that were so hard to get off, in the back seat.

Every modern miss, & most mrs wore them in the 60s, & 70s, [at least some of the 70s]. Even those bathing beauties, who looked so gorgeous on the beach, in those very low cut bikinis they wore then. You know those too, the ones that showed the top half of the cheeks, rather than the bottom half, [or the whole lot on some beaches today].

With step-ins, a multitude of sinful mouthfuls could be hidden beneath even the most skimpy dress.

I think they got burnt, along with the bra, sometime in the 70s. I don't know, as I was out in the Pacific islands, at the time, where the smartly dressed young miss wore nothing but a grass skirt, & perhaps a floral lay. Sometimes, if she wanted to get dressed up, she wore a new grass skirt, over the top of last weeks, just for fun.

When I sailed into an atoll, or a remote village, some of the women would rush off, & dig out their mother hubbard. What a ridiculas garment that is, but all would be back to natural in a day or two.

We may not have been confronted with rolls of belly, hanging over the top af low cut jeans, as we sometines are today, but we did get our pound of flesh, so to speak, as this ditty, written for one miss Twiggy I believe. It always tickles my fancy, if that's what you call it.

"If skirts get any shorter, said the fairy to the nome, there'll be two more cheeks to powder, & a lot more hair to comb"

Dear Hasbeen,

You actually made me spill my coffee - reading
that little ditty you posted!

Absolutely loved it!

I actually wrote it down
and added it to my collection
of quotes.

Thank You!

"Who'd have thought that a skirt
could be delightful.
Ah, but with a mini my dears,
It's the bending over -
That proves to be so insightful!"

I'm glad you liked it Foxy.

Reading yours, I think it's probably a good thing that the G string, or is it a thong, had not become as popular as it is today. Our roads would have been a really dangerous place, if they had.

G'Day All; I adree with both your verses & liked both you "rats". All the best. Dave.

Hey Foxy, my granddad who was a gentleman… he owned some motels down Te Anua (bottom on the left of South Island) and when the mini skirt came in he went around all the units and screwed wooden blocks to the bottom of all the chairs and sofas so that you couldn’t see the women’s knickers when they sat down.

Eww Hasbeen, bad visuals. What was a mother hubbard? What are step-ins?

DWG, back on the meds baby.

And I need help with something and this thread seems less serious.

My son turns 19 on Saturday and I do not have a clue what to get a 19 year old boy... yes he already has a girlfriend.

He works full time in IT. He loves is car (nah don't know what it is). And his dog (cattle x boarder collie).

Anyone had a present they gave their young men that was a real favourite?

Piper

Maybe a voucher for something adrenalin inducing; like bungee-jumping, parachuting, para-sailing, advanced driving skills course, diving with sharks (under supervision of course). Into team sports? Membership with his fave team, season ticket, set of weights. If you really want to spend some dosh; flying lessons.

Maxi

On topic, as women we have had to turn our violated gaze from many a beer-gut, so if you're having issues with the pot bellette (very clever BTW) NYAH, NYAH, NYAH!

Hasbeen - you are sounding more like a "neverwas".

Foxy - re your response to Hasbeen - eeeeuuuw!

Now come on girls, be daring!

Try a short skirt and no knickers :)

Dear Fractelle,

Before you 'eeeeuuuuwwww,' me,
may I humbly remind you of your 'sex on a
motorcycle' quote, sometime back ...

Cheers My Dear!

Dear Yabby,

Behave yourself!

Ok Foxy, so maybe you are just a bit shy.

There is actually a funny story behind that one.
Some years ago I had a female friend due to arrive
at Perth airport and in my normal half joking, half
warped sense of humour style, I suggested that she
arrive with no knickers.

She did just that lol, but reckoned there was a real
problem in stretching up to retrieve her overhead
luggage :)

Dear Piper,

It depends how much you want to spend on your
19 year old's Birthday. Is there something that
he really wants - and is within your budget?
Like a new TV for his bedroom , or a new
Stereo sound system (C/D player etc). Or a night
out with his girlfriend - Gold Class tickets - to
a cinema of his choice. Or a Birthday Party at a
restaurant of his choice for him and his friends.

Ask him what he'd like.

Dear Yabby,

You're right - I get easily embarrassed
- plus I have the annoying habit of blushing
which I can't control.

However, I also have a story to share -
It happened one evening on our way home
from an Indian Restaurant when my stomach
started playing up and I asked my husband to
pull up at the nearest gas station.

I dashed in, grabbed the toilet key
and ran... and the owner with his warped sense of
humour turned the lights off on me.

Well, it was allright I made it in time - However
on my way out when I saw the smirk on his face,
and as I returned the toilet key to him I couldn't
resist saying, "You might want to have someone
clean up the mess I made in there, some idiot
turned off the lights on me, sorry!"

You should have seen the look on his face.

I felt a bit mean afterwards.

That’s brilliant Fractelle, didn’t even think about that stuff and he went bungee jumping a few months ago so the crazy little bugger does enjoys that kind of thing.

Hey Foxy, the boy left home last October – has been known to drop by in the weekends with his washing. Hubby asked him today what he wanted and the response was “I have my dog and my car I don’t need anything else”. He’s lying of course, he was spoilt rotten and he likes “stuff” in general and the little piglet forgot to add his girlfriend to the list. Good ideas though, might e-mail the girlfriend and see if she wants to go jump off a cliff or something.

And since we are in this thread – she is the skinniest 17 year old I have ever met. No bellette anywhere near the girl.

Eww Yabby. Did you ever get a present that was just perfect? Besides your knickless guest, no way am I getting my boy one of those.

Hasbeen- hilarious! Oh yes, I remember, I’ll swear those things were invented by demons!

Foxxy, lighten up, I posted this to relieve a little of the tension evident here of late, a distraction only. I was only making an observation on ONE petite facet of YOUNG women, not critiquing all women’s lives or looks. It’s not as if those lovely lassies would be interested in ugly old ME, lol!
Besides, no woman under thirty is worth even speaking to, barring my daughter of course.
They’re all too fired-up and LIVING, and have yet to settle into their final personality.
And good on them! That’s much better than days of yore.
Just read your subsequent post, on keys and lights, CLASSIC, well done, I chortled heartily!

PP, simple, MONEY! Let him decide whether to save it, put more in and get something he really wants, or blow it on his g/f, it gives him respect, freedom, and CHOICES.

Fractelle, no issues, see my response to the fair vixen above. You’ll note I covered your point in my initial post, I think.

As I said, it’s all been a tad full-on here, I thought we could do with a somewhat lighter subject to discuss. I feel it doesn’t ALWAYS have to be about bad things and saving the world. Was I wrong? Doubt it.

“PP, simple, MONEY! Let him decide whether to save it, put more in and get something he really wants, or blow it on his g/f, it gives him respect, freedom, and CHOICES.”

Yep he likes money. But he is on a good salary on account of his big brain. No not my doing.[giggle] Do you remember a favorite present?

Hey that would make a good thread Max – what ones final personality is and where it came from. Was it shaped by immigrant parents, your peers, politics, whether the girl in front of you had a thong on under her mini skirt that time. Do you think most people had a personality defining moment? Maybe for some our children defined us more than our parents. Oh no flag it – I don’t want to know where Cols personality came from.

Must be hard here, I pop back and read old OLO when bored and I swear you’ve all had every possible conversation. Sorta leaves it at current events now like the boat people.

Dear Max,

This one's for you:

"Lighten up! the wise man said,
As he teased and laughed, and messed with my head.
I stared out the window at the star-studded sky,
And saw an old friend sailing calmly by.

The moon's made of cheese, and you probably know,
That sunlight reflected, is what makes it glow.
Come sail with me, to a faraway land,
Where age is a number, and life's simply grand.

Where faeries and gnomes, it's britches they wear,
Friars who drink, and really do care.
There's frogs with pot bellies, and witches who sew,
Owls who don't blink, oh the things that they know.

There's hobbits and wizards, and creatures who frighten,
Wise sages, soothsayers, and folks who enlighten.
There's only two things you need take on this journey,
A smile that is wide, and a heart full of yearning!"

Take care.

are you some kind of weird male freak
who got a pot belly as a long-term side-effect
from continual use of the pill, Maximillion?
just checking.

Careful there Fractelle, you'll turn everything you touch a shade of green.

Pied Piper, a mother hubbard was a huge shapeless tent like dress thing, the missionaries introduced into the Hawaiian Islands, to try to make the girls less attractive. It then was spread throughout the Pacific, in the same manner. They were worn into town, but never at home. It was a sign that you were accepted as part of the scenery, & nothing special, when they disappeared again.

It may not be suitable, if he has a good income, but the best present I gave my son, was a set of 20 year old Mag wheels, when he owned a 20 year old Ford. They were used on those cars, in the day.

Not expensive, but hard to find, he then spent a weekend making his fingers, & cloths black with metal polish, so I knew I'd guessed right.

PP, I was lucky enough to get it right with my two sons a couple or three times each, but never consistently. Sometimes, just sometimes, there was a particular thing they wanted, and I was able to accommodate them. Focus on his interests, his “fun”, that’s all I can offer, sorry.

Young men and young women share the same dietary and boozing habits - food on the run and the regular booze binges - but men do more of the physical work and they are outdoors 'on the hoof' more through their sport and other recreational pursuits.

So yes, ladettes would show more physical signs of their over-indulgence and indolent lifestyles.

The benefit is that there is much more canvas for tramp stamps and skin folds for body piercings. A hornbag would wear something noice, different and unusual to show the midriff (and the thighs, look at moi hornbag thighs).

It catches up with the lads as they gradually wean themselves off participant sport and the boss decides that anyone of a certain age (getting lower and lower) is a disgrace to the workplace.

Phew, Whistler only just pipped CJM at the post to wave the flag of political correctness, 'You swine, politically incorrect humour is verboten on OLO'. Still, we can always have a titter with the delightful Kath and Kim. Kath and Kim hasn't been banned yet by the PC thought police, or has it?

http://www.kathandkim.com/

Young men and young women share the same dietary and boozing habits - food on the run and the regular booze binges - but men do more of the physical work and they are outdoors 'on the hoof' more through their sport and other recreational pursuits. Then there are the differences between male and female bodies, but best not to mention that.

So yes, ladettes could be showing more early physical signs of their over-indulgence and indolent lifestyles.

The benefit is that there is much more canvas for tramp stamps and skin folds for body piercings. A hornbag would wear something noice, different and unusual to show the midriff (and the thighs, look at moi hornbag thighs).

It catches up with the lads as they gradually wean themselves off participant sport and the boss decides that anyone of a certain age (getting lower and lower) is a disgrace to the workplace.

Phew, Whistler only just pipped CJM at the post to wave the flag of political correctness, 'You swine, politically incorrect humour is verboten on OLO'. Still, we can always have a titter with the delightful Kath and Kim. Kath and Kim hasn't been banned yet by the PC thought police, or has it?

Maxi

Agree totally: thanks for the light hearted thread.

Foxy: sex + motorcycles = adrenalin and style

Yabby: double eeuuuuwww - no style wotsoeva.

Piper: glad to be of help - I just recalled what I liked to do when I was 19. A thought: I took a discounted flying lesson once - some companies offer a cheap deal of one flight to try and get you to sign up for a course which you don't. Fun, fun, fun.

Dear Fractelle,

Faeries + Gnomes + Minis = Charm, Wit, & Daredevilry!

Cheers My Dear.

It gets worse every year Hasbeen, just trying to think of something interesting. Is there a decent point when a parent can just send a birthday card and a letter asking how they are? He has recently built me a new computer and I don’t think I can keep up. He has a holden commodore (I am asking the manthing on the couch) about ’97. But he just got himself new tyers and a car stereo.

But he is a crazy kid, does work full time and does the big two hour commute to Sydney and back each day so one of those work hard play hard boys that has more hair products than his mother and a more extensive wardrobe than his sister and it probably wont be long before he is earning more than his father. At that point we’ll probably disown the little sod. So I’ve narrowed it down to movie tickets, some kind of extreme activity or something for his car.

So the hubbard things were dresses. Freaky stuff. They sound hot, like temperature wise. What were you doing hanging about the Pacific Islands anyways?

Cheers Max, I am probably overthinking it aye.

“The benefit is that there is much more canvas for tramp stamps and skin folds for body piercings. A hornbag would wear something noice, different and unusual to show the midriff (and the thighs, look at moi hornbag thighs).”

You crack me up Cornflower.

Good one Fractelle, we have a little airport close by.

Dear Piper,

What about the latest Apple iPOD classic?
It has 120 GB of storage - space up to
50,000 songs, 150 hours of video, 2,500 photos ...

Or just give him the Gold Class movie tickets -
(travelling and working so hard - he'd probably
like to chill out and relax with his girl on
his Birthday). He can save doing all the 'exciting fun
stuff,' when he's a bit older (and going through
his mid-life crisis).

Pied Piper, I got sick of climbing the corporate ladder in Sydney, climbed on a yacht, & went to have a look at the Great Barrier Reef. It seemed silly to turn around, so I sailed up to the islands to have a look around the WW11 sights.

When I got there I found lots of the out stations, plantations etc, wanted jetties built, machinery & power housed fixed, & could get no one to even talk to them, let alone come & sort their gear out.

I didn't know all that much about some of the stuff, but I knew a lot more than anyone else, who would come out to them. I must have done OK, as I did it for 4 years, & the demand kept growing.

On one atoll they wanted me to stay & marry the number 2 princess. It turned out that it was not my beauty, or ability at fixing things which had won her heart. It was the fact that she was too closely related to all the eligable men to be able to marry.

Later I took 5 of their girls, with the same problem, to another atoll, about 250 miles away, & brought back 6 of their young blokes, to sort the problem, for a while. A hundred years ago, or less, they still went on wife raids to the other atols, & were raided in return, but today they no longer build big enough double canoes.

If ever you get the chance, go have a look. Its a wonderful part of the world, but only with your own boat, can you get to much of it.

Sorry about tour thread Max.

Hasbeen that sounds amazing… And you even introduced a modern approach to wife raiding.

It sounds idyllic and I bet you have a ton of stories and incredible memories. Did you have a camera and stuff with you? How long ago was it? When did you decide to come back? Why did you come back?

I can really picture an overly tanned Aussie bloke with a hat and shorts and little else fixing stuff while little native kids run around finding you more than fascinating. Did they all have a good local beverage of some description? Where did you sleep?

Hopefully they aren’t the ones the French spent so much time testing their nukes around.

Max will be okay, he’s probably just relieved not to be being abused in this thread, well not much anyway. He may have been on to something with the bellette thing but who knows if it is hormones, fashion or too much food. Likely a combination.

Foxy... I have 24 hours and still have not actually done a thing but sat around and thought about it. Maybe a card with an IOU in it.

Dear Piper,

I'm sure that you'll solve the Birthday-Gift problem
in your own inimitable style.

And, I'm equally sure that your son being just
as individualistic will appreciate whatever he
gets from you.

It's all good, people, at least this particular conversation is light-hearted, mostly.

Forgive me Max, could anyone tell me if this is correct please or where I can go to find out?

I have been threatened with imprisonment, I have been threatened with imprisonment for two years after the Sydney morning herald did my photo shoot and wanted to print my story. DoCS lawyers attacked the journalist and their lawyers as well. Section 105 of this act discusses the issue of publication of names and identifying information.

1 Due to the fact there are Children's court proceedings, my SON'S NAME CAN NOT BE PUBLISHED OR BROADCAST IN ANY FORM THAT MAY BE ACCESSIBLE BY A PERSON IN New South Wales.

2.Any information, picture or other material that identifies My son or is likely to lead to the identification on my son cannot be published or broadcast.

3.Even if court proceedings conclude, my son's name or information that identifies or is likely to lead to the identification of my son cannot be published until he turns 25 years old.

4. If the above is breached, a person or corporation may be charged with a criminal offence. The maximum penalty is two years imprisonment.

The term 'published' or 'broadcast' does not just mean in the media sense of the term. It also includes telling any person. Even if you discussed the story with the newspaper and they changed yours and my son's identity.

Sorry I should have added that it is not me that has been threatened with anything. I am trying to help someone and their child.

Dear Piper,

Get hold of a copy of:

"The Law Handbook, 11th Edition -
Your Practical Guide to the Law in NSW."
(Published by the Redfern Legal Centre Publishing,
July 2009).
$95.00 inc GST.

The Law Handbook is the plain English guide to the
Law in NSW. It covers children and young people,
Legal Aid and a list of Community Legal Centres -
where you can get free advice.

This Handbook should be available for you to use in
any Reference Section of your local library. You
should also be able to photocopy material out of it.

Good one Foxxy, and PP, unless your friend makes a habit of it, the chances of a prosecution are slim, it costs money, and they need a reason. Even then it's highly unlikely any magistrate will impose more than a token penalty, if they convict at all.
It's just a standard part of Docs bullying tactics, and as long as people stay calm and sensible, they'll be safe, sort of the same as you treat an angry dog!

the bullying tactics to which you refer
are the enforcement of law
enacted exclusively by men's legislatures.
DoCS workers administer inequitable law.

Foxy I may buy it for my son and kill two birds with one stone! He is sitting here half way through a celebratory night with his designated driver and I have not decided on anything, by the looks of him he will be a wreck tomorrow anyways.

Thank you Whistler it is strange what you say that since the whole department of community sevices is overloaded with estrogen.

Thanks Max… this woman’s story that is backed up by medical records, toxicology reports, hospital apologies etc is incredible. Her and her son had a reaction to an insect that releases things in to the air. It caused huge amounts of pain to both of them and they go to hospital in a screaming panic... he is taken and her locked in a padded room and sedated, assumed a druggie. Months later and her child remains in care still. The circumstance and person in the family he is placed with is not good and apparently the boy deteriorates. Now I thought I had heard most stories, this one I absolutely believe. Why the media would back off I have no idea.

http://medent.usyd.edu.au/fact/caterpillars.htm

I reckon I tricked her in to telling me this much and I have seen her on other sites and pieced a story together like a super sleuth, so aren’t I clever and will go to jail happily for my devious nature. Oh and I made bits up just to make it interesting and the whole thing is a complete lie. Then I changed the time line and it really happened 40 years ago and it was really a man and his daughter.

What I will never understand is why in any Gods name do DoCS never ever say “my bad” and give a child back?

Victim Compensation? Is there some recourse? Why do they do this, oh look it isn’t just DoCS, FSA are horrible and Queensland’s Child Safety have generated whole sites dedicated to DCS hate. The only ones I can find little on except in the media is NT and WA. Tassie Pfft.

Fear not PP, the Docs system is the same here in NT, and I have lived in Tassie and heard local horror stories there too.
That department seems to be a magnet for the hairy-armpit brigade, and Australia-wide is filled with be-studded psychotic femnazis like out windy-lipped friend here!
Personally, I’d like to see the lot of them thrown out on their keesters, and the whole thing re-built from scratch, with normal people running it,…. fat chance!

The Pied Piper, men refuse women the right
to bargain collectively over the welfare of children
with provision of a women's legislature,
then expect women to collectively administer
law enacted by men's legislatures.
no wonder so many find child welfare departments dysfunctional!

“Personally, I’d like to see the lot of them thrown out on their keesters, and the whole thing re-built from scratch, with normal people running it,…. fat chance!”

Hey Max, it’s all pretty bloody awful. Fractelle awhile ago suggested middle management be removed (not a direct quote there).

The caseworkers/field workers I have come across really care, they’re really nice people. But they admit to having no authority and always having to go to their managers for every request. They are the ones that everyone is contact with and usually hate where in reality they’re more like little soldiers following orders.

Wonder where the WA, NT and Tassie people are. The other four have certainly embraced the internet as an outlet for a lot of rage, hurt and injustice.

“The Pied Piper, men refuse women the right
to bargain collectively over the welfare of children
with provision of a women's legislature,
then expect women to collectively administer
law enacted by men's legislatures.
no wonder so many find child welfare departments dysfunctional!”

Whistler could you give me an example of legislature that is male and one that would be female? Please keep it simple.

But I don’t know if it is the welfare of children on the whole but only specifically after they remove them from family. They will not admit a mistake, they would rather keep a child in care and go to court repeatedly. I have never known anyone in the department to be held accountable for this so with no responsibility for these actions without fact why on earth don’t they just give a child back?

Is this stubbornness a female trait, when under this men’s legislature do they not know how to concede fault?

The only person in DoCS to say “we were to blame” to me was a male. He probably ended up neck deep for his honesty.

The Pied Piper,

the House of Representatives
is a men's legislature
the Senate would be a women's legislature.

your experience with DoCS
is consistent with the view
that the Constitution of Australia
requires that men supervise women.

“the House of Representatives
is a men's legislature
the Senate would be a women's legislature.

your experience with DoCS
is consistent with the view
that the Constitution of Australia
requires that men supervise women.”

This is one of things it is going to take me ages to understand. I’m still trying to come to grips with how Peter explains the Law stuff that he wants put back.

Is legislature and law the same thing? But laws and acts don’t have genders in them…?

Do we have a senate here?

Whistler can I ask what it means if you're told "a question will be asked in parliament"? This seems to be more important than how it comes across.

The Pied Piper,
you can see questions being asked
in the Federal Parliament on ABC TV
usually for an hour early afternoons
when the Parliament is sitting.
the Federal Parliament
will next be sitting from 11th to 20th of August.
you can also go to Parliament in Canberra
and see for yourself from the public gallery.

here's a spoof on question time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yto5dNvptbI

legislatures discuss legislation as Bills
which become law as Acts when a vote is taken
and the majority agree.

the Constitution of Australia,
an Act of the British Parliament
passed in 1901 when women were prohibited from Parliament,
provides for two men's legislatures
the Senate and the House of Representatives.
law is enacted when a vote is taken
in both legislatures and they both agree.

in 1902 Australia's Parliament passed a law
to allow women to be elected to the Parliament under male supervision.
women were first elected to the Federal Parliament 1943.

a Referendum, a national vote,
is required to change the Constitution
to provide for law to be enacted
by agreement between a women's legislature and a men's legislature
so that Australian women can enjoy equal rights with men
at the source of power in the nation.

hope this helps.

Thank you Whistler. I wont pretend to understand it more than at a surface level. Would NZ be the same? The video I did understand.[smile]

So a question is just a question, do they often lead to anything else? Or does everything else have to start with a question? But they don’t happen often. It was that I was told that if an NGO has multiple complaints against it and its treatment of children then the only thing anyone can do is get a question asked in parliament. Seemed a bit on the dangerously pathetic side to me as far as enforcing the care and protection act but I thought maybe I wasn’t understanding the importance of these questions.

The Pied Piper,

the British Parliament at Westminster in London developed the use of questions:

"Parliamentary questions are tools that can be used by Members of Parliament
to seek information or to press for action.
They oblige Ministers to explain and defend the work,
policy decisions and actions of their Departments."

and ...

"It is generally thought that the first recorded question was asked in the House of Lords.
In 1721, Earl Cowper asked the Government whether there was any truth in the report
that the Chief Cashier of the South Sea Company, Robert Knight,
had fled the country and had been arrested in Brussels.
A reply providing the facts of the case was given by the Earl of Sunderland."

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/P01.pdf

"New Zealand’s Parliament is unicameral.
This means it has only one chamber (the House of Representatives)
and there is no upper house such as a senate."

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/AboutParl/HowPWorks/OurSystem/1/8/e/00CLOOCHowPWorks111-Our-system-of-government.htm

the state of Queensland has the only unicameral parliament in Australia.
all the other states, the territories and the Federal parliament are bicameral,
as with the Westminster model, with upper and lower houses.

bicameral parliaments attempt to reconcile competing interests
as with the feudal lords and the common people
in the origins of the Westminster model
and the States and the Commonwealth in the Australian parliament.

hope this helps.

It helps Whislter, the more I can understand is extremely helpful and I thank you for taking the time.

Why isn’t it taught from young in schools how the country is run. Courts as well, I have met too many people (myself included) who have no idea what processes are in place to help when we see people suffering and a government that is unreachable.

What I have come across is departments that use a standard couple of weeks before they answer anything. They will not talk in specifics and have no concern for any human individuals, only the process.

They will ignore you completely until you go further up the chain and then the only response you get is questions regarding why you took things any further. I think they go back to their bosses and say we had a meeting but they don’t tell them that nothing was done.

I read some of the “Job” thread before; I can empathize and see no difference between Job dealing with god and your average person trying to get the government to help its people. A lot of “coincidences” start happening to a person who complains.

I figure I need an MP that has their own agenda that will help me just because it suits their own purposes. It took me awhile but I do now grasp that DoCS, NGO’s, Ombudsman, NSW Children’s Guardian etc aren’t interested in the actual children.

Accepting this concept alone has taken months.

ooops ... the terrirory parliaments, ACT and NT,
are unicameral ... sorry.

i suggest you write directly to the Minister.

the Minister for DoCS in NSW is:

Hon Ms Linda Burney,
Minister for Community Services
Level 30 Governor Macquarie Tower,
1 Farrer Place,
SYDNEY NSW 2000

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/Parlment/Members.nsf/3b53a75368ba00b4ca256fe2001c9664/8d837093fe30ec35ca256cfa0011aa15!OpenDocument

Ms Burney is a very successful, no nonsense Wiradjuri woman
(of Aboriginal descent ... my grandaughter is Wiradjuri).

when i worked for DoCS, and other gov departments,
everybody in the office drops what they're doing
immediately a "ministerial" comes in.

first priority in any government office
is to attend to queries from the relevant Minister.

I asked Linda Burney to help some children and got a letter back from Jenny Mason (D-G DoCS) saying Linda had requested she reply to me.

It was about a transition that was handled so badly that a two year old child was terrified of leaving me. Jenny wrote back thanking me for my support of the transfer and suggested I take up an offer of counseling. It is 5 months later and now I am in turn terrified for the little girl. DoCS are refusing to send any staff to see if she is okay.

There is only one person within DoCS that could spot the child in a lineup.

DoCS stated some policy change was made due to that transfer being so bad and the Ombudsman’s office supported my complaint. What everyone did was paperwork while ignoring the small individual that had suffered.

The conclusion, if the NGO say she is okay, she is okay.

I think DoCS here are scared of Life Without Barriers. LWB drove the transfer and were extremely callous. I would imagine organizations that brazen consider themselves beyond worrying about policy and certainly were confident in there standing with DoCS; telling their carers to not speak to DoCS staff.

But now all the children will go to NGO’s in NSW and we have a government department working under the Care and Protection Act that appears too afraid to help children. The transfer went against several NSW Children’s Guardian policies and I am yet to convince them to do anything. But no matter how an NGO performs it appears nothing can be done to them.

I don’t think we can have organizations that are untouchable caring for any children.

It is a simple thing I ask, I just want someone that knew the child to go see if she is okay. I am not asking for any information about her I only want to know DoCS will go do what they are supposed to.

I asked Linda Burney again recently to please get this one caseworker to go see, I heard nothing back.