To Carbonate or Not?

The Emissions Trading Scheme is creating deviseness in the community.

We have the government on one hand, supported by a select group of scientific “experts” telling us that we are creating global climate change with our excessive carbon emissions, so we must push ahead with the much vaunted Carbon Emissions Trading Scheme, which is going to cost a lot for some, whilst making a lot more for certain vested interest groups!

We have at the same time another group of scientific “experts” who are telling us that global warming is in fact being created by increased Solar Flare activity emanating from the Sun, and other planets in our Solar System are also registering increased warming, indicating that this situation on our planet is NOT being created solely by our carbon emissions, but is a flow-on effect from the Sun`s activity, which has occurred before at different times!

The crux of the matter is this,...are we to go ahead and spend a lot of money on setting up a Carbon Emission Trading Scheme, which if the second theory is correct, will only waste a lot of money, with little or no effect on the ultimate outcome,…..or are we better to concentrate on preparing our infrastructure to more efficiently cope with the changing climatic conditions, which may bring more calamitous events for an already storm ravaged planet?

This then is the issue that confronts us all, and I do believe is the issue that Steve Fielding was trying to bring to the attention of the Government. If he is right and the money is spent in the wrong direction, most of us are going to pay dearly as the increasing cost of Earthquake, Tsunami, Cyclone and the like devastates the financial coffers of all Governments and Insurance Companies decline the increasing request for Insurance Cover.

There is no doubt that the pollution of this planet is increasing, however this could be a significantly small contributor to the big picture that we are being led to believe in!

Let us investigate the full facts thoroughly before we jump!

The whole trading idea is basically just a way to licence polluting.
Play accounting games with the figures, plant a few trees, and pump out as much muck as you like. I can see no real advantage to it, as a means of reducing pollution.

The logic I see runs like this:

Your mechanic comes to you and says, we just checked and it's likely that you need to fix your brakes because they might fail sometime in the near future, but that's gonna cost you. You stand there wondering what the cost/benefit is going to do to your bank balance and wonder if it's worth it or should I put it off, after all the brakes haven't failed yet and the mechanic can't give you a date as to when they might.

Then someone says to you, "Just look at history, the great majority of accidents aren't caused by brake failure. In fact many of them happen with no fault of the drivers at all and nearly all are unpredictable." They go on to say, "Even when accidents happen most of the occupants of the car survive anyway, so it's not that big a deal. Save your money on the brakes, upgrade your seatbelts so when something does happen, you will survive better."

Do you buy the brakes?

no bugsy/i dont buy brakes..[i dont own a car]...but this scam..says i do need to buy brakes..for your car..[even better..i need to pay for you to rebuild..your car]...im carrying all the costs mate!

its not as simple as bying brakes..[they want to re-build whole NEW car/fact-tories..[want to say..''its for brakes''..[but the real intent is to build many more cars..

[this tax..is to rebuild..their..industry]..they are lobbying govt for us to fix their new car's,..their/new wind-turbines.. their new industies..[to fix that..they sent broke..[expecting the new tax to bail them out]

they knew their polution was destroying the planet..[now they want us to fix it,..with our compul;sorry tax..[little wonder its men in suits..that want their new payday...via our..new tax

is our tax to end climate change..or climate warming..[they cant even definitily say..''its to stop global warming''..[because they want to keep the tax regardless of it cooling or warming..

[yes the climate changes,..thus the excuse of change stops them rebuilding the case wether its cooling or warming...now its all climate change

yesterday the climate was cooling[..today it's warming],but the tax gets paid both ways...because supprise supprise..the climate will allways CHANGE..[yes we finally got the change..we can be decieved by]

noting the dept of homeland security all of a sudden confirmns climate change..[why beat up the warming..is it change for change sake?...

does our tax make more or less change?

..rebuilding industry ensures the climate..will keep on changing...here is a change/..let industry/elites.. bear the costs for a change...let them pay for the rebuiold for a change we can really believe in

they l;aid a tax on us when they satole the fed reserve bank[they got the right to issue currenbcy[ewe got payrol tax[now its the same again[this time we get the carbon creddit[TAX]...they get the credit..[we get the tax],

and yes all them greedy currency/securities traders..now get to speculate on the price of the carbon tax..we must pay..[they still get the bonus...we get the tax...

its time the wage slave tax payer's[peons]..woke up to the men in suits..and white coats..telling us they can build it..whiter than white

Only nature can change climate; but yes, unless the Government stops listening to the anti-social Left and the rent-seekers in the scientific world and renewable energy manufacture (which still needs the backing of conventional generation, and, therefore, will have no effect on the mythical CO2 problem), we will be saddled with a huge monetary impost which will see our economy and way of life ruined forever – with no affect on climate change.

The full facts should be investigated, as you suggest, Crackup. But the proponents of the human-cause climate change lies tell us that they have done all the investigation needed. The fact they have just centred on the CO2 myth and completely overlooked natural climate change, which is caused by a huge number of things, doesn’t come into their thinking. It is the same with all zealots, whether or not they really believe what they say, or they are just looking for funds or grants to help them develop ‘alternative’ energy, as many of them are.

Then, of course, we have the green Left, who are out to ruin every part of Western society and its economy that they can.

The IPCC where most of the nonsense comes from (most of the contributors to the lies are not scientists as commonly believed, but activists) was revamped from another extreme environmentalist organisation which flopped because of unproven information which the same sort of people were pushing out now.

Maximillion’s ‘licence to pollute’ sums up very well the bill that Government wants to get through. And it will make no difference whatsoever to climate change.

Maxmillion is right when he says;
The whole trading idea is basically just a way to license polluting.

In Europe the Russian Oligarchs took possession of a lot of run down
and bankrupt factories. They then closed them down and claimed the
credits from the Euro ETS scheme.
Now you know where they all suddenly appeared from as billionaires.

Bugsey, what if it is not the brakes ?

What if it's not the brakes doing what Bazz?

You can call the mechanic a liar and accuse him of looking for extra money for telling you that you probably should do something about the brakes, but as I said, the brakes may not fail before something else does.

And OUG, since the car is the planet in this metaphor, I'm not surprised you claim to not have one.

isnt the use of metapwhores yet another form of non reply..[its usually accompanied by other smart mouth replies..[or insults]but us cabal warning hollocaust deniers..are used to not getting a factual rebuttal[its accepted as par for the course]

ask one of the highpriests how much of the earth we would need to cover with solar cells[they talk about a few deserts[now here is the rub, everyday enough heat falls onto the land..[from the sun]there is the real problem..

[those moonstruck global warming deniers hate the sun]..because thats whats doing the warming..[if we have a few more cloudy days we have cooling of the annual mean..[a few more cloudless days we have warming[go figure its warmer in summer]and the climate changes

then we come across the fearfilled hollowcost prophets of doom[saying when the temp rises a few degrees[we get wholsale extinctions[little seeing the folly is exposed..by things such as hot days[or cold nights[or a bush fire]..temp change is normal,...then we have the heat expansion of the sea carbon tax freaks..[ever notice how the seas cover the earth on hot days[lol]

we have the nutters saying/the islands flooding..[but thats because the islands are sinking,..not because the water is rising..[the whole north pole could melt..and it wouldnt change the water/level one mil..

then we got the nutters saying the south/pole is melting..[yeah the bit of it..sitting over a volcano is..[but thats not man-made/global warming..[sorry..CLI-mate change]..lol

we have rivers of ice making icebergs..[scince at least pre titanic]..yes..ice melts..[but having a polar-bear sitting on a chip of ice..[hunting]..is deceptive to say the least]..industry loves this gift of carbon/credit..[to them]..thus want the carbon tax..for us]

[they just love were talking about man made..[not big/businnes made]NON-carbon caused polutions..[not micro/particulate..causing cancers..[nor cell phone/radiation..,nor adverse-reaction to perscribed drugs,..the lies of 911,..or the wepons/of mass destraction..or even israel/palistein..[or the 40 million..made refugees last year alone

[and not their wholsale/polution of rivers..ground water etc..[or their murder of the forrests and eco systyems..anymore]..

not talking about the millions of other topics..now..not getting media attention..because of this..non debate..were not having..about their OTHER/non carbon polutions

The thread deserves better.
We seem sometimes to get far away from reality in our debates.
While both sides of this debate, well the real world wide debate, slag off one another we must look at this deeply.
In my view we humans MUST limit our pollution of the planet, we are to blame for much if not all, of climate change.
We sadly let pure politics take control of issues like this ,blinding us to the truth.

i agree belly[we should tax all polutions, tax all waste...not just drag out a fictional blame that co2 causes all our problems...but face the truth that there are other causes of our problems

[everything from big businress going to cheap labour states that dont carte about big business poluting their waters/airs soils..[to making the elites pay their way..[and fix up the past damages they laid on both the workers and the environment..everything from asbestosis/plurisy,..to suporting those who died/injured at work

big business gets all the cream/advantage..[thus shouldnt get any govt subsidy]gets their worker educated and fixed up for free via the systemised welfare paid by the pay as you earn[and spend]..from the self same wage-slaves paying for everything else

let the abusers pay..[when a forrest is destroyed let it be mended by those who raped and plundered it..[no more acces to further resource till the clean up is done..[with no limeted liabuility companies..

[where the share holdres are held to account..for the damages done in their corperate fictions name..[where a labour party serves the poor not the elites]..where liberals are really liberal..not allowed to be neo con

Ho hum
Ive always secretly thought that with humans being the greedy, selfish lot they are nothing will happen until the damage and disruption are obvious to everyone. It seems we will have to wait till coastal suburbs disappear and droughts and floods cause mass starvation and dislocation. Sad but vested interests and propaganda seems to be winning out over knowledge and rationalism. As usual!

i think i have a sensable solution[make the paying of the tax volentary[those who volenetter get to wear a black star they can sew on thier clothing

[they will be given a free tatoo..[with their carbon tax file on their forhead..[they thus are emtitled to claim they saved the world..openly for the world to see

and us..without the barcode..will be known far and wide as hollow cost deniers[and you can round us up when you out-number us and put is in camps]...hey maybe chaser..could do a skit on that...but..no their gun-shy now..

.how about you carbon tax nutters just stop breathing..[oops that was meant to be breeding]...but try breathing half the time..[that way you lot will only be releasing half the co2 from your breath]

i think you lot arnt eating enough meat..[you would rather destroy the amason to grow soy..[irragate grazing land to grow rice in deserts]..or forrests in indonesia to grow palm-oil to run your highbred cars on

i guess you lot dont know how much methane your compost bins are sending into the sky..[a far worse polutant...nor care about that special cleaner to clean solar cells 1000 times more dangerous than carbon]..why cant you lot see this is about rebuilding industry via a new tax...a compulsory tax that the mark-eteers set the price for

There is nothing wrong in the idea of reducing pollution emitting activity but the proposed carbon pollution reduction scheme is flawed for exactly the reasons that Maximillion mentioned - "a licence to pollute".

It runs the risk of being a Claytons Pollution Reduction Scheme that looks good on paper but in the fine detail actually fails to reduce emissions while delivering on higher revenue for governments and other players.

Wouldn't our energies/money be better spent in investing in renewable projects over time to reduce our dependency on coal fired power in conjuction with measures to increase sustainability.

Man made pollution has produced many problems in the environment well before the boogey man of climate change raised its ugly head.

Reducing polluting activity is highly desirable, and if at the same time it has a positive impact on cliate change then we have all gained. If man-induced climate change is proven without doubt to have been overstated then we have lost nothing.

Pelican & Maxi

Fully support what you say.

With the Libs not even in the reality of curbing pollution and Labor doing too little, I can't even guess when government and big business will actually DO something.

Meanwhile, I will sort my garbage, save on water, drive as little as possible and hope.

Emmissions Trading Scheme: Just another term for 'Transfer of Wealth'. As usual, the individual will be caught in the middle, paying more, while business and Govt will be making a bundle. Will have results very similar to that of the Stock Exchange: Small people lose a lot, while the Big end of town gets wealthier. How could anyone with foresight see it any differently? Take a look at those pushing it. Take a look at what it will cost the average household? Then you can see. I had a lecturer at Uni in the 1980s who told us about what was then called 'Carbon Trading'. It was the 'next big thing' in a new world, to come. I hated the idea then, and I hate it now. Unfair is what I mean, by 'Transfer of wealth': From those who can least afford it, to those who don't need it. GST: Govt revenue (and deficit!) is in 'Billions' whereas it used to be in 'Millions'. I have probably just been alive far too long!

LadyAussieAlone:

There is a well-worn saying that "nothing in life is more certain than Death and Taxes!"...there is another one that is becoming more and more applicable as each days passes,..."A fool and his money are easily parted!"

If this Thread is any indication of the gullibility of some of the "fools" that make up the flock, then it is not really hard to understand why this world is in such a mess!

There has been much contradictary evidence over recent years, presented by scientists of repute, indicating that the present "global warming " phase that we are currently experiencing has in fact occurred many times before throughout the history of this planet, and is attributable to increased Solar Flare activity!

We, as mere mortals have no control over the Sun`s activities, and it has been stated that we would be much better off in the long run by spending money on softening the effects that will be occurring across the globe, as a result of the increasing climatic changes that are facing us all!

We are now being urged by Politicians across the world to "act now before it is too late,...the planet is at the tipping point and if we do NOT implement the Carbon Emissions Trading Scheme immediately, the planet is doomed!"....This is nothing more than the creation of fear across the community to enable the "vested interest" groups to cash-in on another, but much better scam than has been available before!

In the long term, regardless of what happens to this planet, the enlightened ones, the Carbon Trading soothsayers will be able to say "Look our Scheme prevented the death of our planet!" as this planet will survive regardless, ...or if it doesn`t survive, due to the increased Solar activity then it doesn`t matter anyway, simply because there is nothing we can do to alter the Sun`s activity!

Crackcup:
Before watching the program 'Sun' on SBS the other night, I was aware of this cycle of solar storms, caused by electromagnetic activity on the surface, following helium being forced from within the fluid mass, etc etc. It is an 11-year cycle.
My thread is against Carbon Trading. I am aware of numerous other non-human factors contributing to the climate changing.
The reason I focussed on the poor paying more and the wealthy receiving it, in a transfer of wealth, was to outline the futility of the whole process vis-a-vis climate change. I am a householder, and cannot vote in the Senate, on legislation. Therefore I am not the fool who is soon parted with his money. Our houshold electricity bills are going to rise because of Carbon Trading. Actually, as a direct result of it. That's why I likened it to the Stock Exchange. But there is one major difference which riles me: I don't get to invest, to lose my money. I lose because of using electricity.
So, I don't see why you preach to me. It seems we misunderstand each other.

LadyAussieAlone:

Please accept my sincere apologies if you mis-interpreted my last post! I thought that I was expressing my empathy with your previous view, and I had no intention of belittling you,...in fact I myself resent any tendency to belittle a contributor to this Forum!....(unless of course they truly deserve it!)

I agree with you all the way down the line and thought that I was simply adding additional material to an already explosive subject!

I just hope that the opposition to the projected implementation of the subject Carbon Emmission Trading Scheme do NOT buckle under the pressure, as happened with the GST issue after Politicians rattled their sabres, shouting words of opposition against the Bill, but when the crucial count of votes came, they somehow acceded to whims of the power brokers and tossed in the towel!

Everyone should be prepared to accept the fact that if this Bill is implemented, the smallest and the weakest in our community will pay upfront while the fat-cats and the influential will manage to avail themselves of some form of convenient exemption!

Crackup
When you quoted 'a fool and his money are soon parted', after I had spoken of the transfer of wealth from households being charged more so big business could profit, it appeared as though you were supporting big business and the transfer of wealth from households, to support their increased polluting. It appeared as though households had a choice about their increased electricity bills, and were taking the unwise option, allowing them to increase. As if they had an option in the first place.
Just needed to check you on that one. Not seeking a nonsensical apology for a misunderstanding, just stating the existence of same misunderstanding as an explanation.
Govt does not listen to the general public, so that's why I think they will continue to clutch at straws to appear to be doing something about climate changing. The Carbon Emissions Trading Scheme is like the 'plant a tree to make up for flying around the world' scheme: It has been humourously likened to the 'hire someone to give your girlfriend flowers, to make up for cheating on her'. No matter how many trees planted, the environment still suffers. Buying flowers does not negate the cheating having occurred.
I honestly can't see how we can stop these people from implementing a scheme which allows them to grow more wealthy from every angle.