Alan Keyes is an African American who is totally hostile toward Obama.
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqkMfToY9Pk
Alan Keys "How can bankrupt Govt bail out a bankrupt banking system?"

Back in 2001 Obama did believe that babies intended for abortion that survived should be left to die,but is this a fair appraisal of the Obama we see today?http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59702

Newsweek"We are all Socialists Now." http://www.newsweek.com/id/183663
So if we are all socialists,does that mean the losses of the Corporates are now paid by workers?
The US is in serious termoil and now many states are wanting to use their constitutional rights of sovereignty,so they are not exposed to the debt liability of the Federal Govt.

Already Obama's rhetoric and professed ideals are not matching the reality,but do we cut him some slack in the hope that honesty and courage will prevail?

obama didnt cause this problem[govt manipulations have...here is the deal,google odious debt,this is debt created by fraud[the fed issued the credit under act of fraud[thus we arnt liable]...for many reasons and treasons the fed issued too much money..[10 trillion of debt since obama took power

[5 quadrillion over the time it has run the federal reserves, this 5 quadrillion quite simply cant be repayed ever]we arent even covering its intrest..[because it was created by fraud[thus this debt is is odious debt..[repayable by those who conducted the fraud]

so what was this fraud will never be resolved[but the assets are egsistant[and must be seized],before the fools liquidate the proof of their fraud...

see how in the proper way govt creates the money[then gets it back via taxes[and recirculated the money..[800,billion in total,for usa[but the fed can print 10 quadrillion if it has to[but if it does hyperinflation[everyone loses]

see we been conned today it has worth[and those with it are buying up the stuff they KNOW will hyper inflate once govt..[oops sorry the fed/bankers print it]..

anyhow the cure is simple[buy back the fed,under right of signorage with 12 coins [for the set price 44.4 billion us]..and return the fed to the people..[run by the states the fed under pins the value,but ensures those who got the odious gain[and the gold/silver]..return it to govt via death duties[tax]..

in one generation one third will return to the state[world wide]..yes even the artificial persons[incorperatioons/trusts must 'die' and pay their tax..lucky these who stole the wealth are old,..

maybe as they naturally pass on one third of their illgotten estates will return the value back to govt and govt auction them back to the people[liquidate them..to underpin the useless dollars..then keep the dollar..[ursury free]...meanwhile a wealth tax and a transaction tax for those liquidating their odious gain or thinking to put their treasonous gain overseas

Arjay

A little literary advice. When naming a topic by combining two different words to create a bit of spin, suggest a little more thought, otherwise it just looks like a spelling mistake, hence reducing your credibility.

Because I am a smarty-pants know-all, suggest the following may have worked a little better:

Obama-nation. Which not only sounds like abomination but doubles for Obama Nation. Get it?

As for your topic which differs little from the last one your raised about Obama. (Apart from dredging up some anti-Obama rhetoric.)

1. George W really was an abomination.
2. Obama's task as president is virtually Mission Impossible.

And who would you suggest could do a better job?

Mc Cain? Palin? Hilary C?

Please offer a little more than a spurious criticism of a president who has only been in power for 4 months.

I predict he will have to make even more compromises, before turning round even a few of the excesses of the Bush era.

A resounding ditto, Fractelle!!

For the record: we have NO good guys in politics-anywhere. But we have some truly vile ones. Fractelle has mentioned them; I don't need to.

As far as I can see with Obama, there are only 2 things he is interested in.

Buying votes, with any lie that may work, [global warming], & playing the big time celebrity.

I wonder how long it will take the adoring lefty masses to see through this hollow man.

Our own hollow man is starting to slip. You can fool all the people, etc.

"Do we cut him some slack..."

Nothing to do with us, Arjay. I cannot understand the interest in a foreign politician. Let the Yanks worry about Obama. They wanted him; they got him. The cracks are now appearing, as we all knew they would. He is only there because he is an African-American, and that's not a very sensible way to elect the President of the most powerful country in the world.

We've got enough to worry about with our own left-wing leader. At least we can say the Rudd was never tied up with a terrorist organisation like the Minutemen

Obama's job was to to clean up the sh@t left behind by Bush. But instead of doing it, he has created a bigger mess.

The Democrats made a wrong choice in electing Obama rather than Hilary Clinton.

The Arabs and Muslims in general were not as hopeful as before. In fact, Osama bin Laden thinks he is just as bad as Bush. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,628293,00.html

Obama is not effective because he wants to please everyone. He is traitor to the democrat socialist cause by pumping money to the big banks and closing down companies that employ millions of workers.
http://pilger.carlton.com/page.asp?partid=530

Sooner or later he is very likely to be put down because he thinks he's a god.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html

Dear Arjay,

If Obama did as well as Gerald Ford,
Bush senior, or W. would that be good
enough for you?

This was a question that I found on a
website - and I thought it appropriate
to this (your second post) on the US President.

The website asked:

"If Obama achieves health care for all, moderate to
low taxes, environmentally friendly nation states,
peace in the Middle East, electric cars, increases
in education rates, stabilizes families, reduces
homelessness, improves race relations, lowers
unemployment, brings the US economy back to number one
in the world... Would that be enough for you?

Somehow I doubt it.

The best the US President can hope
for as the site stresses is - ' doing well and counting
20 - 30 years of history to recognize his record.'

Dear Leigh,

You infer that the US President was associated with a
'terrorist organisation,' called the 'Minutemen.'

Did you not know that the 'Minutemen' were associated with
the Revolutionary War in America (although they existed
from the mid 17th century). The Minutemen were the first
armed militia to arrive or await battle. Pictures of them
always depict them as holding a musket and a flag. Their
mission was:

"To secure US borders against unlawful and
unauthorized entry of all individuals, contraband, and
foreign military." They were considered patriots.

Just thought you should know.

That's good enough for me, Philip Tang.

>>In fact, Osama bin Laden thinks he is just as bad as Bush<<

If Osama thinks he's a bad lot, that puts the new pres. way up in my estimation.

Incidentally, I think Arjay started this thread as a continuance of his "the banking system is full of evil parasites" campaign.

>>Alan Keys 'How can bankrupt Govt bail out a bankrupt banking system?'...the losses of the Corporates are now paid by workers... many states are wanting to use their constitutional rights of sovereignty,so they are not exposed to the debt liability of the Federal Govt...etc.<<

Do keep up, children.

Foxy,

Yes. I realised that I had typed Minutemen a second after I posted. I meant, of course Weathermen, who were an extremist terrorist group. Obama knew the leader and his wife; in fact, Obamas kicked off his first campaign in their home.

Unlike you, I do have lapses of concentration causing errors.

Bernanke was on Bloomberg yesterday, being interviewed by a Senate
finance committee. He maintains that had the Fed not acted last
year, we could well have faced a meltdown of the global financial
system.

The ramifications of that could have meant that Keyes and Arjay,
might well have had to figure out how to provide dinner, without
money from their bank available, which is easier said then done.

Bush created this mess and ran the US economy into a ditch, Obama
is simply hiring a tow truck to get it out.

As it happens, US banks will most likely be the first to repay
their debts, with a profit for the US taxpayer. Given the salary
limits that Obama imposed on bankers owing money, they have
scurried to raise 100 billion $ in private investor capital since
March and are itching to pay back what they owe.

In hindsight was the whole thing a good move by the Fed? Absolutaly,
for the cost of doing nothing would have been so great to all of us,
that Bernanke deserves a pat on the back for taking this calculated
risk.

Fractelle,Agreed.Bush and his Daddy should be before a court for crimes against humanity.None of our leaders should be allowed a free ride.The pressure needs to put on Obama since he now has so much public good will behind him.This makes him more dangerous than Bush since the perception is that he can do no wrong.

Leigh what is happening in the US now is very relevant to us all.If the States do declare sovereignty then who controls US military might.Which power will fill the vacuum left by the US.How do we defend ourselves?Our financial institutions still have our money in the form of super etc still invested there.

Philip Tang.John Pilger does make some very relevant points.I just hope Obama wakes up soon since he is making poor decisions.

obama's speech in cairo
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-obama-text,1,2593240,full.story

this might relate to para 6
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=2252
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2009/LeggeCDatWTC.pdf
http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/8608/
http://www.ae911truth.org/newsletter/2009/06-1/index.php

but it seems no one told him

anyhow it is for each to know as much as the seek to know
or not
http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/stock-market-dissonance-why-the-stock-market-no-longer-reflects-main-street-economics-the-dow-jones-industrial-average/
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/peace_freedom/patriots_and_protesters/news.php?q=1240607530
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/freedman.htm
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=2234
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m54809&hd=&size=1&l=e
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=2081
http://www.anarchy.tv/
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=2129
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

The thread is of huge interest to me.
Its social comentry for a start, the bleating about the man, combined with the leftist leader of Australia thing, read the polls, understand voters intent, its not selling.
Has to be a joke?
Well the crisis was not the fault of both these leaders, we at least are about to get a chance to vote in this country.
If America had that chance?
No doubt at all they too would massively confirm their choice as we will soon do.
Conservative politics must find direction or fade away as an alternative.
I can not overlook ajays continuing search into dark corners, seeking people to hang this world crisis on.
In just months we are going to be forced into an election, by the very party who can not win.
In time , history will record the blindness behind conservatives actions in both country,s as unrewarding and unwise.
After that? Maybe a return to developing policy,s, hopefully.

So Yabby thinks that it all right for the Fed Res to create $2 trillion from nothing and then loan it to the US people and make them pay interest on money that is virtually worthless.

There is a better way.Take the power to create money from nothing away from the private banks including the Fed and let Congress as defined by the US Constitution issue currency.The US people then do not have to pay interest on devalued currency.The money the Fed creates does not belong to them.This counterfeit money! JFK was in the process of creating his own money when he was assassinated.

Belly if you have any influence in the Union movement get them onto this issue of the creation of money.The power to do this should belong to the people.They have been barking up the wrong tree.While we own our RBA,we should not have the likes of Frank Lowy on it's board who with many others have the ability to manipulate the money supply to their own advantage.Since 1974 when we went off the gold standard, the growth of money in the world economy has been expodential and it is the inflation caused by the banks which have lowered the living standards of most Australians.Wages have not kept up with inflation.Only those who could save enough to buy assets which then go up in value have been protected from this inflation,hence we have the dimisnishing of the middle class and the increase in the nos of poor.Govt then tries to tax the diminishing middle class to stem the tide of the poor,which in turn creates more poverty.Now everything is so over inflated we have total collapse.The real economy has separated from our fantacy land of a financial system.

Kevin does not have to put us into debt.Why borrow from off shore from banks who create money from nothing ,when we can create our own currency via the RBA? If banks can issue currency based on nothing ,we can issue currency based on the wealth and productivity of the Aust people.

i am caught between the rock[belly] and the hard place arjay...like arjay i see the absurdity of the same two party system playing the same adgenda[as well as a banker controled fed lending govts world wide THEIR OWN MONEY]

pres jfk signed pres order 11.110[allowing usa to issue yet again its own money...three days before the bankers..via the cia and the marfia,got his own driver to shoot him[google the vidio]..of the full zagruda..[a mason]..film]

we live briefly in a time where truths can no longer be suppressed[thjere is NO ONE who is completly innocen[witness kev in his mobile office ute[and the two billion loan guarentee for the car sellers[as well as the carbon tax..[but compare that to the turnbull into votes[and his banker past..getting 60 million payouts from ther same leweman that fleeced the us tax payers of billions via the bailout]

let those without sin not cast the first stone..we can only take what our leaders say at face value...but by knowing only by their deeds are revealed...no one who takes the proffits inherant of ursury has clean hands

[certainly no polition[nor commentator[or blogger] blogging politics]...its a filthy game,..lying between serphants and dogs[sorry not you two..lol..]

im talking politics generally,...i feel dirty just talking about the vile...'they'..allow to be done to gods people..and gods creation's..[and who is not given to live from god][who is not of gods people]

Dear Leigh,

I'm relieved to read that it was a typo on your
part (and yes, I've made them as well) regarding
your reference to the "Minutemen," as a terrorist
organisation, when in fact they were patriots.

You explain that you meant the "Weathermen," and that
the US President kicked of his campaign in the home
of two of the leaders of the "Weathermen." And you
thereby infer that makes the US President associated
with a "terrorist," organisation?

The Us President was in no way directly involved with
the "Weathermen." As a matter of fact he was eight
years old - when they were active - back in the 1960s.

He kicked off his campaign in the home of those two
people - because they were colleagues and work associates
that both the President and his wife had worked with in
the Community - in Chicago.

This attempt to smear the US President was done by Sarah
Palin and John McCain - as a gamble - that they can
distract the public with smears rather than talk about
substance.

As the US President said at the time:

"They'd rather tear our campaign down rather than lift
our country up. That's what you do when you're out of
touch, out of ideas, and running out of time."

Arjay I know that you are in love with your conspiracy theories,
so won't let the truth get in the way of a good story, but you
always have the option of reading your history, why the Fed system
was set up by Congress, how it works, its various functions etc.

Fact is that profits made by the Fed are paid to the US treasury,
which means taxpayers. Member banks, which I gather are all US
banks, can't sell their shares or do anything with them. The
Fed simply acts as a bankers bank, much like our RBA, which too
pays its profits to our treasury.

Increasing the money supply indeed was a better option then facing a
global meltdown of the financial system. The Fed can once again
decrease the money supply, once this present storm blows over.

In other words, the present system is set up so that Reserve banks
are at arms lengths from Govt, otherwise Govts could simply print
their way out, when they overspend. That is hardly good economic
policy. The very role of reserve banks is to follow economic
policies which are best for the economic health of a country over
the longer term.

I remind you that it was the SEC, the regulator who refused to
regulate, which was the real disaster in the present US fiasco.
That regulator was answerable to Bush/Cheney/Congress, they
clearly did not do their job

gabby informs us<<..Fact is that profits made by the Fed are paid to the US treasury,>>thats all well and fine[but you fail to mention the fed has exclusive right to make[print]money

then we get to who is the banker[for the treasury]..THE FED holds ANY real cash #..[even that cash you claim goes to treasury]...the fed still holds...its hard..to find out where the treasury..banks its money

just google..[i just did the search]
http://www.google.com/search?q=where+treasury+bank%27s+its+cash+money&hl=en&rls=MEDA,MEDA:2008-36,MEDA:en-GB&start=30&sa=N
all i could find...[on page 4...lol
was this
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Modern_Money_Mechanics/Bank_Reserves%E2%80%94How_They_Change

<<variations in bank reserves result solely from the mechanics of institutional arrangements among the Treasury,..the Federal Reserve Banks,and the depository institutions.

The Treasury,for example,keeps part of its operating cash balance on deposit with banks....But virtually all disbursements are made from its balance..in the Reserve Banks...

As is shown later,any buildup in balances at the Reserve Banks prior to expenditure by the Treasury causes a dollar-for-dollar drain on bank reserves>>..

..in short its a closed loop..[all babk funds go to the fed..[who alone has the right to issue money/credit]...an ECLUSIVE franchise..ANY money that does go to treasury..ENDS UP BACK AT THE FED...be it via any other bank..or direct to the fed...its the fed franchise[banker control mechanism over any..[every]govt]

ALL money paid to govt..goes TO THE FED..via the treasury
who tell govt what it can/cant do...[who elected bankers to have that final choice...who gives them the right to control our elected govt via ursury to govt]

what is a share of the proffits..in credit in the fed babk..to owning the whole cake...fed banking cartel rules us..via defacto govts..disempowered govts..[we cant elect bankers,but banker's control govt and all the cash and all the credit]...yet govt gets all the blame

every cent..of any tax..we pay goes to the fed bank..eventually[after the cartel gets their bonus..[and the shareholders of the fed..[ie bankers]..get their proffit/bonus/share holders return

then...the pennies left go to treasury..[who returns it ALL[and more ie taxes etc..back to the fed]..along with all our fines levies govt fees and charges..

ie[all govt revenue...[all]..goes directly to the fed..who scoops off its bonus/cream...and controles who gets credit/and ALL money...and collects ursury and all taxes/moneys

Foxy,

Nobody has 'smeared' Obama; he has done it to himslef.

At the very least, he has shown appalling misjudgement by associating with the leaders of the Weatherment. And you are surely not so naive as to believe that the two people concerned have changed their stripes to the extent that they are now 'democrats'. Laying the blame at the feet of Palin and McCain is based purely on what you have read and what you choose to believe.

You quote Obama as saying:

""They'd rather tear our campaign down rather than lift
our country up. That's what you do when you're out of
touch, out of ideas, and running out of time."

He would say that to cover up a shameful association. All politicians do.

UOG, you have as many conspiracy theories about the Fed, as you
do about everything else :)

The Fed is the US Govt's bank, just like the RBA is our bank.
If you get a cheque from the Australian treasury, you get it
from the Reserve Bank. The treasury is not a bank, they have
their accounts with the Reserve Bank.

Member banks in the US are not paid dividends on their shares,
they are paid interest on money deposited there, as they are if
they deposit their money at another bank. Its no different here.

Profits made by the Fed are not paid to member banks, but back to
the treasury. Sheesh, this is not rocket science lol, just basic
common sense.

The Board of Governors of the Fed, is appointed by the Prez and is
answerable to Congress and the Prez. They dictate the policy by
which the 12 Reserve banks in the US have to comply.

But hey, those conspiracy theories let you fool around with your
google bar and so keep you off the streets :)

Leigh,

Apart from Barry(aka Hussein)Soetoro's association with terrorist Bill Ayers you forgot to mention the host of other shady characters he made deals with on his way to the top:
Tony Rezko,
Jeremiah White,
Louis Farrakhan,
Khalid Abdullah Tariq al-Mansour,
etc,
etc,
A veritable who's who of radicals and criminals
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=800
But it's not your fault because the leftwing US mainstream media managed to forget to mention them too.
I can't imagine why they scrutinised the Republican VP nominee more closely and harshly than they did the Democrat Presidential nominee except to say that it's consistent with leftist notions of objectivity.
Perhaps they thought that Palin as a conservative VP represented an existential threat to all that is progressive while Soetoro as a black, radical leftwing President was a dystopian's dream come true.

oh gabby your not a great one for proving the stuff you sprout

<<Federal Reserve Act
Section 12. Federal Advisory Council
1. Creation, Members, and Meetings
There is hereby created a Federal Advisory Council, which shall consist of as many members as there are Federal reserve districts.>>.

many districts [not just one 'fed'

<<Each Federal reserve bank by its board of directors shall annually select from its own Federal reserve district one member of said council>>>where is the pres picking them bro?

<<who shall receive such compensation and allowances as may be fixed by his board of directors subject to the approval of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System.>>...fed reserve SYSTEMor rather the system within the system that takes the cream well before treasury gets any intrest

<<The meetings of said advisory council shall be held at Washington, District of Columbia, at least four times each year, and oftener if called by the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System.

The council may in addition to the meetings above provided for hold such other meetings in Washington, District of Columbia, or elsewhere, as it may deem necessary, may select its own officers and adopt its own methods of procedure,>>>totally free from audit or any govt oversight[ie the origonal point

<<and a majority of its members shall constitute a quorum for the transaction of business...Vacancies in the council shall be filled by the respective reserve banks,..and members selected to fill vacancies, shall serve for the unexpired term.>>if you plan to further educate us gabby...PLEASE PROVIDE PROOF..[or links]...even sources would assist having a real debate..[not just your spin..[masked as opinion]

please learn some real facts bro

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=gd&q=who+selects+fed+reserve+member%27s&hl=en-GB&rls=MEDA,MEDA:2008-36,MEDA:en-GB

Yep, I was right.

>>Incidentally, I think Arjay started this thread as a continuance of his "the banking system is full of evil parasites" campaign.<<

Mind you, it wasn't the toughest call.

>>it all right for the Fed Res to create $2 trillion from nothing and then loan it to the US people and make them pay interest on money that is virtually worthless.<<

You still don't get it, do you Arjay.

>>Kevin does not have to put us into debt.Why borrow from off shore from banks who create money from nothing ,when we can create our own currency via the RBA?<<

I know it is a waste of time asking, but this one is almost a schoolboy howler.

If the Fed "creates money" that puts the American people into debt, how does the RBA "create money" without doing the same for the Australian people?

If we borrow from the US, and the US dollar (as you confidently predict elsewhere) halves in value in the next six months, would that not be a splendid thing for Australia? We'd borrow a billion, and pay back half a billion. Why borrow from ourselves?

>>Since 1974 when we went off the gold standard, the growth of money in the world economy has been expodential [sic] and it is the inflation caused by the banks which have lowered the living standards of most Australians<<

Are you suggesting, Arjay, that our standard of living is lower than it was thirtyfive years ago?

http://tinyurl.com/n6u4wt

"...only a loaf of white bread is less affordable for fulltime workers now than it was in 1974."

Just in case you would like to do the research yourself, here's the address of the ABS website, that has CPI data going back to 1974 and beyond.

http://tinyurl.com/p5laal

>>Now everything is so over inflated we have total collapse<<

The current rate of inflation is... what, Arjay?

This time, you can look it up for yourself.

UOG ,Yabby,Pericles and many others in the finance industry have a vested interest in keeping the present status quo.The banks steal wealth from the people via creating money,and the share and finance industry play their games of chance with easy money.It is just a giant ponzi scheme,of derivatives,futures that feeds off it's own momentum and becomes detached from real productivity.

We have to focus attention on the private banks taking from society and not giving enough back.By starving the real economy they are actually decreasing productivity since the vast amjority of people are too busy just surviving,rather then being able to create their own capital and more importantly further their education.Education does not have to be formal with bits of paper bearing witness.Education is living and experiencing life.

Dear Leigh and KMB,

Having lived and worked in the United States
for over 10 years - I managed to observe
American politics at work. So its not simply
from the media that I obtained my knowledge
of American politics.

And by the way KMB - you've left off Stalin,
Hitler, Pol Pot, Castro, Attila The Hun,
Mao, and other leaders of infamy in history,
all of whom would have had an
influence on the current US President's
education. Along with Constitutional Law,
which is his area of expertise.

That's what is considered as part and parcel of
a person's tertiary education - especially in
preparation for Leadership.

I doubt if these
historical characters would have featured in
Sarah Palin's Local newspaper - which she admitted
was all she's ever read. John McCain doesn't read
anything at all - but he's rather fond of computer
games, I believe.

A typically inaccurate statement Arjay.

>>...Pericles and many others in the finance industry have a vested interest in keeping the present status quo<<

I am not, and never have been, in the finance industry. Not in any part of it. Ever.

So there goes another simplistic Arjay theory. Kaput.

>>The banks steal wealth from the people via creating money<<

The Banks lend people money. They borrow, in order to do so. It is a fact of life that won't change just because you can't understand it, Arjay.

>>It is just a giant ponzi scheme,of derivatives,futures that feeds off it's own momentum and becomes detached from real productivity<<

If you were to leave out the bit about Ponzi schemes, which are quite specific in their nature, you would not be too far from the truth. One of the major contributing factors to the series of recent US banking collapses was - along with self-serving Ratings Agencies and a sprinkling of abstruse mathematics - indeed the distance between the original loan, and its final "packaging".

None of the steps in between was necessarily illegal, by the way. Merely incautious.

>>By starving the real economy they are actually decreasing productivity...<<

First you want them not to lend, now you accuse them of withholding money from the economy. Which do you see as the greater evil, Arjay?

Have you actually bothered to study any of this yet? It's really very interesting.

And you don't have to be in the finance industry to understand it.

But Arjay, you must face the fact that you already have a "vested interest in keeping the present status quo", whether you like it or not.

It's the only game in town.

*fed reserve SYSTEMor rather the system within the system that takes the cream well before treasury gets any intrest*

UOG, so how do you know that the cream is being removed. How much and
by whom? Any evidence for your claim?

You seem to be confusing the Board of Governors and the Federal
Advisory Council. The Board of Governors are each appointed by
the President, subject to confirmation by the Senate.

My information comes from an 875 page Economics textbook, which
originated from the University bookshop. Its called "Economics"
Fourth edition, by Roger N Waud, published in 1989.

Arjay, Australian banks work on about a 2% spread, between what
they pay and what they charge on loans. Any losses have to be
paid from that, when clients default, so that is not unreasonable.

Banks make up nearly a third of the ASX and their major shareholders
are Super Funds, so most bank profits in fact land up in Super Fund
accounts like yours, even if you are not aware of it. If you have
a Super Fund account, then you too are an indirect owner of Australian
banks.

But hey this is all no fun, best we invent another conspiracy theory!

Perricles for the vast majority of Australians their living standards are lower than 40 yrs ago.Only the top 20% are better off.

Do you think that in your wildest dreams that giviing the power to a private group of banks to create money from nothing,is good for the well being of any society? If you think that this is a positive for the collective good,then you are really suffering from serious delusions.

No organistion that does not represent the collective well being should be given such powers.This is why I came up with the concept of a National Monetary Fund that is elected by the people and is totally independant of Govt.It can be a source of review as well as creating new indpendant ideas that add to infrastructure and national wealth.

Your wealth is in your people and no amount of inflationary money created by lascivious banking cartels will change that reality.

Just google the phrases "your wealth is in your people" and "monetary porn" and see who pops up.To my surprise others have already thought of "Obamination ". I think for myself.

for gabby ..the organisation of the fed-reserves system..[plus 125]..[board of goveners..[7]...appointed by the president]

who then form the fed..[open-market commity]..that means the 7 plus 5 nominated by the 12 fed reserve BANK presidents...each of the 12 FED RESErVE banks..[controling the opperating the 25 branches]..

[each branch has 9 directors..controling 3.400 other banks..with their own boards/diectors etc..

who elect the 9 diectors running the fed reserve banks...the member banks..[3,400 of em eating the cream..elect 3 class a..[3 class b..[3 class c, diectors making 9 directors heading the 12 fed reserve banks operating the 25 branches..each with their own cream lickers..[and 9 additional offices]...do the numbers..only 7 apointed by any form of govt..[1000's appointed by bankers]

the 9 diectors of the 25 branches..of each federal-reserve..appoint..[ie not the president of usa]..12 members to the federal advisery council..[one from each regonal district]..as well as appoint a/fed president..[and fed/vice pres..

noting the fed/vice president must be approved by the presidents seven[who also approve the saleries of the officers and employees of the 12 fed reserves controling the 25 branches

[the federal advisery council..also ADVISES the board of goveners..[and the board of 9 from each of the 12 fed reserve banks appoint the fed reserve banks president..[who appoints 5 of the 12 on the fed open market commitie]

anyhow excluding the individual bank boards..[3,400]..the imediate fed reserve admin system alone..has 9 times twelve[108]..directors..just overseeing the fed reserve banks...the directors of each bank appoint the fed advisery council..[12],..and the fed reserve bank pres..appoints [5]...

without the 7 chosen by obama..bankers are appointing at least 125 of the imediate controling fed/directorship postitions..to obamas 7...

and thats leaving out..the thousands running the boards of the 3,400 franchise holding banks...[thats where the cream goes]...but hell bro do your own research
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve

i havnt mentioned how they tie in globally..[nor how they run the imf],..the house of settlement,moneymarkets,metals,minerals markets,..food,clothing ,importa exports insurance

nor the global numbers/of all the other fed..reserves..each runing their own cash cow/fed cartel..[their own fiat/cash dispensing scemes]..[at ursury]..under/fed/franchise,..

as well as running ANYTHING/everything their..franchise..fiat money..can buy...gold,silver,oil,land,pride,real-estate,stocks,share's,bonds,securities exchange rates,the worlds industrial complex govt mints,media,law,medicine politics and govt

You can't get away with that, Arjay.

>>Perricles for the vast majority of Australians their living standards are lower than 40 yrs ago.Only the top 20% are better off.<<

Exaggeration is fine.

Misunderstanding is OK too, really.

But fibbing, when you know perfectly well that what you write is a nonsense, is just childish.

One Under God, gday, may I give you a tip?
How about dropping the insults to other posters?
The gabby thing is from other posters book of insults.
The old and wise let he who is without sin throw the first stone.
Or people who live in glass houses is worth thought
History will speak far better this man than the last leader.
And true research true understanding, of why the fed reserve exists in this form, while a very long way from ideas in arjay and your posts
Would be worthwhile to you both.

ya thanks for the tip jelly...[gabby and i go way back..[as do you and i..[i still feel the unions sold out the workers[via the colusions of labour state govts..as well as federally under howhard and co...

but the big point is your both big boys..as grayham has told me suck it up..[AND REBUT THAT INFO POSTED]..if you can[play the ball not the man]..i am doing both...

mainly because you both should know better the real truth of the matter..[and not be defending the indefensable]..and because you both aq#re not presenting valid proofs..of the delusions your continuing to propagate...

[but why?]...your the claimed union man mr glass house..[at least gabby is an admited capitalist..[he at least defends what he really believes in]..he really believe what he posts..[you cant even povide evidence of falling wages..and at least arjay and i put up links..[you dont rebut with other links

as well i am not knocking obama,..he is a us president..insulting him insults the poor yanks who elected him..the poor need some hope[not that the union man could comprehend this

so saying..back to topic..percules read graph 7.8 and 7.9
http://taxreview.treasury.gov.au/content/Paper.aspx?doc=html/publications/papers/report/section_7-03.htm

revealing the continued lowering of the income of the poor[that the jelly belly..as a union man didnt see fit to make a point by...mainly because the union has guilt by disassosiation...there is plenty more evidence at the search...all revealing pretty much as arjay has said

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=gd&q=wage+rates+1970%2F2008&hl=en-GB&rls=MEDA,MEDA:2008-36,MEDA:en-GB

percules you been fooling..[or taken in by howhards spin of the medium wage..[of course the massive increases of wage of the few elites hide the reveal the plain facts of the low income downward squeeze

[made clearly especially on the 7.8 graph..[first link]..from memory..[noting the sharp upward spike..from 75 to 78...that then lies horisontal..as the union sells us out by laying down for the bosses[when the voters got conned..into believing its not..time..after all]and the unions called it quits

KMB,

Now Obama is sucking up to King Abdullah, one of the world's worst living despots who maintains that all Saudis must be Muslims.

Obama hasn't learned much from his disgusting associates if he believes that Westerners can ever be friends with Muslim countries without their conversion to Islam. That's what Islam is all about - converting the infidels or kaffirs. Military alliances are possible; but there is no way true friendship and cooperation is possible with countries whose religion sets the rules.

In another few centuries, perhaps; but not in Obama's time. In the meantime, Islam is not to be trusted, no matter what its adherents say.

Arjay,

I think most unbiased Australians would refute your claim that Australians in general are worse off than they were "40 years ago". In the last 8 years for instance, before the recession, Australians were better off financially than they have ever been. That is not a plug for the last government; it's a statement of fact.

We are now in a recession - one of a number of expected cyclic slumps which are part and parcel of our system. Anybody familiar with the system puts a little aside during the booms to reduced the effects of the slumps.

The current Keynsian bungling will hold us in the recession for longer than necessary but, even if it takes a change of government, things will be up and booming again in time. The one way to the next boom involves thrift and cuts in spending. The current government obviously doesn't hold to that theory, so the next few years are going to be a bit rough for those who blame others for their woes, and continually ignore the rules of the only system which has been proved workable and best for most of the people most of the time.

Don't worry about the "top 20%". They will always be better of, so there's not much point in wasting emotional strenth by envying them. If it weren't for them, the rest of us would not be enjoying the standard of living we do now - even in the tough times.

Dear Leigh,

You don't necessarily have to like your neighbour,
but you should respect their identity and attempt
to live in peaceful co-existence.

It's the fundamentalist mentality - no matter
what religion or culture that will continuously
disrupt the potential good that can exist in the
world.

What the US President is trying to do is to build
upon the foundations of predecessors for a
peaceful existence - because aggressive military solutions
have never worked.

It takes time and will power to set the course - to
achieve results. At least the US President is making
the right effort, and criticizing him is only impeding
the process.

These postings are read by people around the globe,
and it doesn't achieve positive outcomes with
negative comments.

leigh it is not your fault that you feel as you do[but its time people knew the house of saud is nothing to do with mahamoud/islam they infact hate the shitites..[iran islam etc]...alex jones explained it comprehensivly on yesterdays show..it might be opn here somewhere
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAlexJonesChannel&view=videos
or here on the archives link[junes isnt up yet]
http://www.infowars.com/

anyhow he revealed that kurd sunni wahabi/saidi are change agents[or rather their leadership has been used to create alcarda[underrt a form of division he calls baulkinisation...its basic divide and conquer...with the main point being..not all muslims follow their messenger...some follow orders from..usa/briton/israel..to suit other adgenda's

[lest we forget most of the terroists who supposedly bought on 911 were saudies..[as is bin larden]..a former cia operative[or sadman insane also served us oil intrests,..till the yanks hung his imposter with crooked teeth..[yet another facit of this wierd colusion wrought under illusion imprinted into a common hatred of islam by the media

even the cairo message..was delivered in egypt[under an oppressive regime,..as the sauidi connection in serving big oil is will known..[as are their links with terror]...911 etc

in short not all..claiming islam support islam...bowing to a saudi isnt the same as bowing to god..each race/belief has their black sheep..i will leave it to others to explain..as its their own family business...how kurds/wahabi have their own adgenda..as well as the adgendas of those they serve

Pericles sprouts more nonsense.While average incomes have increased since 1970 when we analyse the distribution of wealth the picture shows that the top 25% gaining while the rest losing.See "Inequality In Aust" by Alistair Greg.Frank William Lewins amd kevin White.It is on the web.Also see;
http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2005/12/09/income-and- consumption-inequality

Add to this the enormous amount of debt ie houses are now 36 times more expensive while,wages have only gone up by 12.5 times.There are an estimated 2 million working poor in Australia.

Yabby "The US Fed Res is dictated to by the Board of Governors oppointed by congress." Here is the Chief inespector on the Board of Governors not answering questions on where all the tax payer debt money has gone.The Board is a joke! It is the Sgt Shultz of the Fed."I see nothing,I know nothing"
http://www.youtube.com/watcg?v=EsTEn-fcjU0
The facts are that the 12 banks who comprise the US Fed weild enormous power.They have shares in all the major media outlets and at least 60% of Congress at this moment are too afraid to vote for Ron Pauls Bill 1207 for transparency.After viewing Elizabeth Coleman's performance,how could anyone say in their wildest dreams say that this is an honest and satisfactory situation.It is outrageous!

The major 5 Australian banks have made a net profit after tax of $5 billion in the last 6 months.Ten billion per yr means they make $1000.00 pa from every working person[or $2000.00 per household] and still the fees and charges rise.

The least productive businesses in Aust make the greatest profits.They are but money changers.When the host has too many parasites feeding off it,the host dies.It is time to shed parasites.

Arjay, where is your evidence that the 12 US Reserve Banks, own
shares in US media companies? They are Reserve Banks after all,
set up for a specific purpose, not trading banks to make a profit.
Read your history.

If the auditor of the Fed could not answer certain questions,
why did George Bush appoint her? The people chose George Bush
after all. But then Bush chose the head of the SEC too, who was
a regulator who did not believe in regulation. There is democracy
for you, if the people vote for a dummy, they get dummy results
and pay a heavy price.

At the end of the day, the Fed is answerable to the Prez and to
Congress.

Yes Australian banks make good profits, but in relation to the
amount of capital invested in them by shareholders, not unreasonable.
BTW, lending to business is far more profitable then lending to
mums and dads. By the time UOG or others have banked their dole
cheque, then drawn it out again at the ATM or counter, it costs
banks money. Its a community service that they provide.

Take a look at BHPs profits, its in the billions too and of
similar capitalisation as banks.

If you feel that banks are making too much profit, you are free
to buy shares in banks and risk your hard earned savings, or
even start a bank and offer people a cheaper deal. Bendigo Bank
had all these idealistic dreams, but I am yet to see where
consumers are better off.

If you refuse to risk your hard earned savings and put them
on the chopping block if you lose them, then shut up, for when
you borrow from banks, you clearly want others to do it and trust
you. If you want people to take a risk with their capital, clearly
they will want a return.

Sorry, Arjay, it is too late to change the groundrules.

>>Pericles sprouts more nonsense.While average incomes have increased since 1970 when we analyse the distribution of wealth the picture shows that the top 25% gaining while the rest losing.See "Inequality In Aust" by Alistair Greg.Frank William Lewins amd kevin White<<

I had a look at the bits of the book that are available on the web. It was pretty obvious that the authors were scrabbling around to find facts on which to hang their arguments. What resulted was an entirely new definition of "inequality"

I think this was my favourite paragraph.

"Just as ethnicity and Aboriginality are not fixed concepts or realities, neither is gender... It is only by taking into account individuals' lived experiences of gender identity that we can clearly see the ways in which it is a negotiated reality. However, we are careful not to dissolve gender identity to the level of complete voluntarism, and in a case study on transexualism show how individual choice is restricted and defined by a wide range of structural variables."

It is quite possible, given the logic presented here, that you may find that "wealth" is not a fixed concept either, and is "measured against individuals' lived experiences", to the point where it is simply another "negotiated reality".

Your other reference didn't go anyplace interesting either, by the way

>>Also see; http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2005/12/09/income-and- consumption-inequality<<

Quiggin says nothing about Australia, and is even pretty wishy-washy about the US.

As he points out, he could find nothing conclusive, to the point where he admits "Obviously, More Research Is Needed™"

>>Perricles for the vast majority of Australians their living standards are lower than 40 yrs ago.Only the top 20% are better off.<<

When you have something even slightly convincing, do let me know. Until then I'll stick to facts.

i note the board..[fed open..market..lol..commitie]..acts like a firewall/between the fed proper and the board of goveners

anyhow..update on the fed audit resolution
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=2306

but seems there is a snag

Handwritten Notes Show Fed Oversight Bill Neutered On Senate Floor

Legislation to give Congress greater oversight of the Federal Reserve..was severely watered down on the Senate floor Wednesday..in private negotiations..between two powerful Republican senators.

Thanks to an overlooked document posted on the website of Sen.Charles Grassley of Iowa,..the top ranking Republican on the Finance Committee,..voters can virtually watch the water being dumped into the brew that Grassley had hoped to force the Fed to drink.

(See the document at the bottom of the link.)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/08/handwritten-notes-show-fe_n_200515.html

On page five of Grassley’s amendment,..he intends to give the Comptroller General of the Government Accountability Office power to audit..“any action taken by the Board under…the third undesignated paragraph of section 13 of the Federal Reserve Act” —

which would be almost everything that it has done..on an emergency basis..to address the financial crisis, encompassing its massive expansion of opaque buying and lending.

Handwritten into the margins,however, is the amendment that watered it down:..“with respect to a single and specific partnership or corporation.”..With that qualification,..the Senate severely limited the scope of the oversight.

On the Senate floor,..Grassley named the top Republican on the banking committee,Richard Shelby of Alabama,..as the man pouring the water.

“Although I would have preferred to include all of the Fed’s emergency actions under 13(3),in consultation with Senator Shelby I agreed to limit my amendment to actions aimed at specific companies,”said Grassley.

“This modified version of the amendment..does not give GAO authority to look at all of that additional taxpayer risk...It is much narrower than the one I originally filed,..

The original version of the amendment..also scratches out congressional authority to oversee Fed actions..as they relate to the TARP bailout or..“similar authority that the Board exercises under urgent and exigent circumstances.”

much more specific/detail at link
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/08/handwritten-notes-show-fe_n_200515.html

UOG, the board of governors determines policy, the 12 reserve banks
impliment that policy. All very simple really.

Now I know that you see a conspiracy wherever you look and I know
that you think that you know better then the 300 million Americans
who decide all this, but trust me, they have to make their own
decisions and wear their own responsibilities for getting it wrong.

So far, you cannot show any money that the Fed have ripped off,
cheating the American public. Fair enough, I did not think that you
could.

But keep busy as a google cyber sleuth, for clearly you are having
fun and amusing yourself. If you ever should discover something
of actual significance, where there is substantiated evidence,
I am sure that people will take note. In the meantime, we'll
just have to classify your posts as little more then verbal
masturabation.

have fun

I suppose that is it; “Government Policy”. And are we to believe Government is the New God to Worship and of the knowing; is this the new Government definition?
I don’t think we could engineer an Iron lung big enough to make Government work – ; working models and Government ; That is an Oxymoron – Try dysfunctional and stupid- pathological liars that operate on the idea of deceit and deception.
And that is our new Religious order and the new Reich fuehrer Gods the newest crypto proletariats; (Make that Plural) there is more than one pretentious brain dead clowns.
Ooooo beam me up Scotty ; No intelligent life forms here.

Yabby posted, "Bush created this mess and ran the US economy into a ditch, Obama is simply hiring a tow truck to get it out."

Yabby, its more like Obama has taken an excavator and made the hole deeper.

The US economic policy of creating money under Obama will bring about the collapse of the US and possibly the West.

When US Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner told the Chinese government its investments in the US are "very safe", despite a growing budget deficit (estimated $770bn)

"Chinese financial assets are very safe," he said, DRAWING LAUGHTER from the audience.

The audience laughed because like Obama, he was lying through his teeth
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8076642.stm

It's surprising to Pericles coming to the aid of the bankers.

The bankers are the main culprits who caused the financial crisis of 2008.

It is a common misconception that the Federal Reserve Bank (US) is owned by the government but the reality is that it is owned by the big corporate banks of the US and the UK.
http://www.land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/federal_reserve.shtml

Interesting videos to watch are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFtePsHsUkA&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DPfKxOQGHU&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeb247Vc1eY&feature=PlayList&p=D40C63A8A78754E6&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=

I know it is a convenient peg on which to hang the blame, Philip Tang, but life just isn't that simple.

>>It's surprising to Pericles coming to the aid of the bankers. The bankers are the main culprits who caused the financial crisis of 2008.<<

The general public, i.e. people like you and me, have been using credit like drunken sailors for many years, to the point where it has become almost invisible - just another expense line, like interest on our credit card statement. Or the interest we pay on our mortgage. Or the repayments on the car.

Banks - like any other commercial operation - are in the business of meeting this demand with supply. They didn't actually "create" the money, as Arjay seems to believe, but borrowed from other sources in order to meet your needs.

Ultimately, governments are in a position to turn off the credit tap, should they feel the need to. Very few did. When the individuals at the bottom of this heap started to default in large numbers, the system suddenly found itself starved of its oxygen - the money that needs to keep circulating in order for it to stop itself collapsing.

That is why many governments around the world - ours included - have chosen to allow Banks to continue to borrow despite the fact that at any other time they would be technically bankrupt.

The system certainly failed.

Its early-warning systems didn't function. Credit Rating Agencies failed in their task to identify toxic loans in the Banks' balance sheets. Salesmen were allowed to continue to sidestep credit requirements in their lending - particularly in the US, but we ourselves had some "Low Documentation" loan pain of our own.

But it starts with us, not with the Banks.

They have played a part, that is true.

But unless you favour the view that nothing is actually our own fault, and that it is always somebody else's responsibility - the government, the Banks, God - to look out for our interests at all times, we, individually and collectively, brought this upon ourselves.

the_sub_prime mortgage crisis was NOT caused by excessive borrowing,

[the default]was the inability..to repay..indexed intrest rates

[where by..via colluded deceptions and self-intrest..POOR people were conned..by bankers/financiers..[to further..over-inflate the real-estate markett]..set up for a future default

[thus the 50 trillion...[securities]created a..SECONDARY hole..that was able to be blamed..on a mere 800 billion of bad/defaulting loans

LOW fixed income..cant cover the INCREASE/intrest..built in by the money-changers..[who on-sold..securitised..their debt into..'securities'..[created by bundeling the mortgauge's,..

then even securitised their worthless DEBT default's..into securities via debt-swaps,..PLUS,turned THEM all..into..'AAA-rated'securities..by ratings agencies collusions

[they..[we]insured them[..thus even insurances/underwriters got their 7 trillion in govt bailouts]

the 43% of foreclosures..lost their homes..while the banks got a masive bailout..[but their max possable default on mortgauges was only 800 billion..[the big criminals/ursurors]..did much bigger crimes/frauds,..blamable on the mug punters believing the white collar spin

noting turn-bull cashed in,..when he via insider/traiding got told of the up-comming collapse

There is no doubting the central role played by subprime/SECURITISED loans..NOR THE CLEAR COLLUSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN EXPOSED..in the trillions of bailout dollars..obtained by ALLOWING the collapse..[real criminal acts..[while cops are kept busy busting kids for drugs]

..an threatening increase in foreclosures led to a drop in the price of housing and the hastend the bursting of the “housing bubble”..a money bubble was clear pre 911,..but further expanded by the last bail out..[post 911]..that bail out that directly caused..THIS securities bubble!

There is widespread agreement that relaxed'..credit-standards'..were primarily responsible for the excessive lending/securities creation...WHO RELAXED THE standards?

In 1999,..the Clinton administration pressured Fannie Mae,an intermediary in the secondary mortgage market...''SECONDARY'..get it not..'primary'..into increasing its risky borrowing to lower and middle income people..setting them up as scape goat..of course..[the RICH blame the poor]..how dare they dream/believe the boom would contuinue...

the mugs believed the media it was..[buy or get priced OUT of the market]..lest we forget..bankers KNEW they would default...[so got THEIR cash back by creating'mortgauge_securities'..[about the same time howhard gave us compulsory super..[to buy them up with our compulsory-super]

the poor are screwed both ways..[then again conned via another..'security'..their pension/super/funds..insuring..[UNDERWRITING]..the deals...lol....[then bailing the bankers...not the mortgauge holdres..with a mere 800 billion..RISKING default....lo

*[..thus even insurances/underwriters got their 7 trillion in govt bailouts*

ROFL UOG, who got 7 trillion $? Next time you have breakfast, read
what is written on your packet of cornflakes. It can only improve
your understanding of economics :)

Pericles is correct once again, Australians like Americans have
been living it up on easy credit. It had to end some day.

Our housing market is a little different, in that we actually have
a shortage of houses, wheras in America, because of cheap land,
they just kept building new ones. Now they have a surplus of houses
which they cannot sell.

Americans don't have State Govts slugging them with 100'000$ plus
fees for a housing block, as they do here.

Their jingle mail is a real problem. I assume its due to Govt
regulations, but in Australia if you borrow money, you are
responsible for your loan, even if the value of your house does
not cover the loan. They can send you bankrupt. Not so in America,
if the house value falls, you can send them back the keys.

So smart Americans, who paid too much for their house, can now
return the keys to the bank and buy a much cheaper house around
the corner.

Philip Tang, the present US strategy of printing money is largely
a policy of Bernanke, the head of the Fed. He spent his life
studying why there was a depression in the 30s and how one could
be avoided in the future. The idea is to cut the money supply once
again, when things improve and are sorted out.

Now if you think that we would all be better off, if he had simply
done nothing, let the global banking system collapse and land up
with 30% unemployed, well that is your right, but I don't agree with
you.

Thanks for the links Philip Tang.Gerald Celente has an astute understanding of the crisis.As he said you have to produce your way out of this mess and not print money.Glen Beck,"I hope to God you are wrong."So do I.Things are not shaping up well.5 yrs ago Gerald Celente said that hae would have laughed about the FEMA camps being constructed to detain US citizens.They are looking down the barrel of total economic and social collapse.Obama hasn't a clue.

Ron Paul now has 44% of Congress supporting his bill,but this may be too late.Apparently the Fed is mounting a publicity campaign to discredit the Ron paul movement.Things will get very ugly and dirty from now on.I think that Obama will be pressured into escallation of war to distract attention from home woes.

debate bloomberg..[but gabby/..is more clever than..bloomberg/kellogs]

The Real Cost of the Bailout
By..KEVIN ZEESE

$7.6 trillion.

That is what Bloomberg reports/has been committed on behalf of the American taxpayer..to bailout America’s finance system...This includes spending by the Treasury,..Federal Reserve and FDIC.

The amount..=..to half the value of everything..produced in the United States..last year.

It is $24,000 for every man,woman and child in America,..that is nearly..$100,000..for a family of four.

nine times what..U.S...has spent..[so far]..on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It is enough money..to pay off/..more than half the country's mortgages,..but bankruptcies have continued despite the bailout.

We do not even know/..where all of those funds have gone...The taxpayer is putting up a King's/ransom..and not being told who is receiving it...We guarantee the debts of banks....and are not being told what collateral is provided..or who is receiving the funds.

Before receiving the bailout funds,Treasury/Secretary..Paulsen promised transparency...But,..Federal-Reserve/Chairman[Bernanke]..says that such transparency would be.."counterproductive."

All/this money..and yet foreclosures,..bankruptcy and unemployment are all up;..the stock market,..consumer spending and housing prices are down...Pouring tax dollars into banks..is not working.

We don’t know where the bottom is yet,..see no evidence that the bailout is working and already,..as Barry/Ritholtz,author of.."Bailout Nation,"..points out,the bailout has cost more than..
http://www.counterpunch.org/zeese11262008.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/cost-of-bailout-hits-85-trillion.html

The total cost of funds committed..to the bailout..in its various guises..has now hit $8.5 trillion dollars,..up from $7.7 trillion in just two days after the federal government committed an additional $800 billion to two new loan programs on Tuesday.

The total amount of funds now committed equals a figure that represents 60 per cent of the U.S.gross domestic product.

Millions of Americans with savings accounts and pensions will ultimately pay the price because, as the San Francisco Chronicle admits today,..“The Fed lends money from its own balance sheet or by essentially creating new money.”

You’ll also find this little snippet in the article, “Most of the money, about $5.5 trillion,comes from the Federal Reserve,which as an independent entity does not need congressional approval to lend money to banks or,in..“unusual and exigent circumstances,”..to other financial institutions...do/your research...gabby

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=gd&q=real+cost+of+the+bail+out&hl=en-GB&rls=MEDA,MEDA:2008-36,MEDA:en-GB

Ah, just as I thought, UOGs claim was nonsense, the insurance
industry never got 7 trillion $.

No report on Bloomberg either about them getting 7 trillion $.

Verbal masturbation UOG, you are a specialist at it !

gee gabby your really not trying mate [are you]

here i did the search..[take your pick]

i could have narrowed it down for you by quoting the quoted number ..but im sick of proving stuff..to one so intent on remaining ignorant

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGklCMsytKsyMAtgGl87UF?p=bloomberg+bail+out+trillion&fr=sfp&fr2=&iscqry=

try the links dear gabby..they are more informative than your cornflakes packet...

read what i wrote and quote..yet you cant fillin the gaps,..i was talking about the cost of the bailouts...the cost of the bailouts quoted at that time...its since gone up

i left out the word share...that dont change the facts preceeding the extracted quote

yes your right in quoting the...your..perception..that insurance /underwriters got the whole lot..[but that wasnt the flow of the whole debate..

[nor even the post]...but your so keen to refute the info..you pick on one word..left out...[while ignoring the whole post]

here is the full paragraph...noting i divided so simpletons like you..will comprehend what im posting

<<..the INCREASE/intrest..built in by the money-changers..[who on-sold..securitised..their debt into..'securities'..[created by bundeling the mortgauge's,..then even securitised....their !!..worthless DEBT default's..into securities via debt-swaps,..PLUS,..turned....THEM all..into..'AAA-rated'securities..by ratings agencies collusions..[they..[we]..insured them..[..thus even insurances/underwriters got their >>>SHARE of<<...7 trillion in govt bailouts]..>>> as it was wrote..pre editing it for clarity..happy now?

thats a dumb question..of course you are/as long as you can spew your bile at the messenger...your quite content...but i will keep posting info for you..even knowing you cant be bothered reading the links

here is the search again
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGklCMsytKsyMAtgGl87UF?p=bloomberg+bail+out+trillion&fr=sfp&fr2=&iscqry=

...give you a hint look for the number..[im not making this up]
i quoted the article..[that reveals i UNDER quoted the number]...

but that only reveals it worse than i suspected

but be..in name calling denial..all you like
it wont change what i chose to do in the least

All that effort UOG, yet no links to show that anyone was given
7 trillion $, let alone just to insurance companies.

Let me explain to you a little difference. The Australian Govt
has guaranteed loans taken out by Australian banks, to the
tune of many billions of $. Banks even pay them a fee for this.
Yet so far, the Australian Govt has not paid out a single cent
in actual payments.

UOG, have fun and amuse yourself, but don't expect anyone to take
your crazy claims seriously, apart from the odd nutter of course.

..the govt guarentees are for the money market,bankers AND their underwriters/insurors etc..

govt is on the hook..for the guarentees's..it has made under juress...was..forced to make..under threat of imminent collapse of the whole finantial system....as reflected in the lists of bailouts..i posted,..made under juress...via govt borrowing..[from the fed]..lol..to save the people having a run..on the banking system..

it's..at the whim of the bankers..if they..chose to default...and if they..do..govt is on the hook...the stress-tests were fraud..as i also previously posted..[and]..as repeated on the youtube clip on the search

the moneyed/fed/banking elites..have set the game-up..[was threatening to close shop..last year..unless govt gave their guarentees...however much you may be in denial..about the matter...

lest you forget..the rush..to pass the bailout..through congress...yes..bankers are paying a fee for this surity..[but if/when..bankers chose to default..its govt who loses]...and even their guarentees..wont save the ursury-system

the system of fed/fiat/banking has failed..[self-regulation cant work with greedy money-grubs such as yourself..as revealed by the very words your chosing to use...these are..in the record your previous postings..revealed how much your..so like those you defend...but love of money/wealth does these things..to the weak minded and feeble

its nothing to do with howhard and co..that we havnt had a run on the banks...but because rudd realised it was likely..going by the media reporting and his advisers..

[you think he and they didnt have realistic fears put on him...them..by the sold out bankers/advisers..needing to get aussies on the hook..into debt..or rather for the fed..to get control of govt bonds and surities,..now no doudt held by the world-bankers...to keep govt/..tax-payers bound..to a flawed fia/monetory system

debt-free dont suit bankers mate

[look how..they advised him..to get into 300 billion of debt]...thats your mates love..[your finantial/bwanking-buddies]..how come the fed..who makes money..couldnt underwrite their own monetary-system..

[why did it have to be govt?...because their not content..just..stealing our gold and silver..coin-age..[they want the blood govt/securities/debt..[and the new carbon/credit..payable by the waged/tax serfs..

[so elite/fiatised/wealthy nutters..like you can say show me the proof...MATE..THATS WHY WE NEED TO AUDIT our FED..AS WELL...cause they..have your proof..but refuse to explain..aswell..[even to govt]

“The general public, i.e. people like you and me, have been using credit like drunken sailors for many years….

But unless you favour the view that nothing is actually our own fault…..”

So Pericles is now blaming the common person in the street for the 2008 financial crisis, because of using credit cards; quite unbelievable.

The world financial market had been warned about deregulation and the danger of its collapse because of morally corrupt bankers. It's like closing down the police force and the thieves are having a good time.

The BBC reported of Warren Buffet describing the derivatives market as “contracts devised by madmen”, “financial weapons of mass destruction”

>>“The derivatives market has exploded in recent years, with investment banks selling billions of dollars worth of these investments to clients as a way to off-load or manage market risk.

…Mr Buffett argues that such highly complex financial instruments are time bombs and ‘financial weapons of mass destruction’ that could harm not only their buyers and sellers, but the whole economic system.

Derivatives also pose a dangerous incentive for false accounting, Mr Buffett says.”<<
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2817995.stm

A conversation with Naomi Klein, author of "The Shock Doctrine" and William Greider, author of "Come Home, America" shows clearly how Obama has betrayed the very people who voted for him and are bought over by the rich investment bankers.

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/10293

"A conversation with Naomi Klein, author of "The Shock Doctrine" and William Greider, author of "Come Home, America" shows clearly how Obama has betrayed the very people who voted for him and are bought over by the rich investment bankers."

Ummmmm, he's an American politician, you were expecting something else?
Even though he has more "power" than any man should be trusted with, any attempt to actually USE that power to change the existing political/economic power-structure will see him rapidly gone,no matter his Halo, and he knows it. It was never going to be otherwise.

*self-regulation cant work with greedy money-grubs such as yourself..as revealed by the very words your chosing to use...*

Lol UOG, now I am seemingly a greedy money grub, because I
don't believe your many conspiracy theories.

It has in fact been myself who has been pointing out, that lack
of regulation by the Bush regime was a major part of this problem.

So there we have it, no 7 trillion $ given away as previously
claimed.

But you are still on about silver and gold coins and usury.

They got rid of silver coins for good reasons. When the price of
silver went up, people melted them down and countries were left
with a severe shortage of coins for everyday use. That is hardly
rocket science to understand.

So what is your issue with usury? Depending on the definition,
usury applies to excessive interest rates. Yes pawnbrokers do it,
a few other emergency cash suppliers, that is about it. More likely
I think that your problem is a religious one from Islam, where all
interest is not accectable. That hardly makes sense in today's
world, or there would not be a shortage of houses in places like
Saudi Arabia, because people can't obtain a mortgage to build a
house.

But continue to live in your dream world UOG.

Hey Yabby, as far as I can see, a home-mortgage IS Usury, unbridled!.
What with compound interest, charges and penalties for just about everything, the ability to change a signed, contracted rate at will, the ability to take your money and possessions almost at will, what's missing?

Bill Greider is so right when he talks about a dispersal of power in the US.Power in centralised in the bankers,large corporates and Govt.Now the corporates control Govt as well.40% of Americans currently don't want to vote for either party.

What made the US great was the innovation of smaller enterprises.Even bankers Bill Greider knows say that this continual bailout mentality will not work.Now these are two left wing authors and they are singing from the same sheet as Ron Paul.It is just making the bubble bigger and will end in disaster.When will sanity prevail?

See Webster Tarpley's "The men Behind Obama" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MouUJNG8f2k
Tarpley also goes on to say on another video that it was Brzeinski who set up the USSR for their fall in Afghanistan.Apparently the CIA were in there before the Russians so the Russians saw this as a US threat to their security.According to Tarpley,Brezinski wanted to create a Vietnam for the Russians in Afghanistan and send them broke.In other words Brezinski set trap for the Russians to invade Afghanistan.

How true or credible this is I don't know,but it makes for interesting viewing.

Hmmm. I think you are perhaps being a little drama-queenish about this, Philip Tang.

>>So Pericles is now blaming the common person in the street for the 2008 financial crisis, because of using credit cards; quite unbelievable.<<

I am simply pointing out that it has been the "common person in the street" who has been taking advantage of the banks' lending policies for all these years.

If they had not done so, the problem would not have occurred, would it?

But it seems to be an imperative with some folk that there is always someone else, or some institution, to "blame" for the ills that befall them.

The fact remains that this crisis required the active participation of people, as well as encouragement from various external elements, ranging from government policy (Mr Smug was pretty hot on growth, I recall) to Banks, retailers and advertising agencies.

To pick just one cause over all the rest of what makes up our daily existence seems both perverse and self-serving.

>>Mr Buffett argues that such highly complex financial instruments are time bombs and ‘financial weapons of mass destruction’ that could harm not only their buyers and sellers, but the whole economic system<<

Warren Buffet is a very smart investor. And he turned out to be highly accurate in his assessment of the various derivatives, and other instruments that hid the basic fact that many unaware idiots had bitten off more credit than they could chew.

But the facts are still facts. People had the benefit of the credit when it was available, and the fact that they simply p*ssed it up against the wall was not within the Banks' ability to determine.

Arjay,
You asked "do we cut (Obama) some slack in the hope that honesty and courage will prevail?"
Here's a Koranic quote from the Messiah's Cairo speech:
'Be conscious of God and speak always the truth.'
It is lifted out of context from a passage calling Muslims to fight the unbelievers.
"Abu Saqer, the head of Jahidiya Salifiyah, an Islamic outreach movement in Gaza, explained there are two main interpretations of the verse cited by Obama: First that you should follow the truth of Allah, but in specific to follow those who are in jihad with the prophet in spite of the great heat of going to war," he said."
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026467.php
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100504
How much slack should we cut a President who is either incompetent or is calling for a jihad against non-Muslims?
Yes we know the leftwing mainstream media loves him but is that enough qualification for the world's most powerful man?
If you think the media aren't biased, think again:
Here's Newsweek editor Evan Thomas after the Cairo speech describing Obama as "sort of God" .
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-drennen/2009/06/05/newsweek-s-evan-thomas-obama-sort-god
Here's MSNBC's Chris Matthews' describing how "I felt this thrill going up my leg" in response to an Obama speech, after which he describes his analysis of Obama's speech as "an objective assessment"!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no9fpKVXxCc
Obama is incompetent and the media are sycophants, period.

Obama, according to ex-Arab Muslim misquoted the Koran.

“The Holy Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind." So said Obama in his Cairo speech 4 June 2009 to please his Muslim audience, albeit with complete distortion.

This quote is taken from verse 5:32 of the "Holy Koran". Let us first quote the full verse and see what it says:

Yusuf Ali:
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. [Q 5:32]

First thing to note is that, the command (allegedly of Allah) applies to “Children of Israel” (i.e. Jews). It does not apply to Muslims. That is why you find a lot of killings of innocent civilians by extremist Muslims today. The extremist Muslims read nothing but the Koran and know their stuff better than the moderate Muslims and non-Muslims who don’t read the Quran.

http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27:obama-distorts-quranic-teachings-in-cairo-speech&catid=20:jabali

Obama is a pseudo leftist.

The real leftists are the Russians and their way of dealing with the Islamist's jihad is THE ONLY way to succeed.

http://sheikyermami.com/2009/04/27/chechnya-how-the-russians-deal-with-the-jihad/

*Hey Yabby, as far as I can see, a home-mortgage IS Usury, unbridled!.*

Of course Maxi. Home loan interest rates are around the 5.5%
mark and inflation around the 3%-3.5% mark, so your effective
cost is around 2%. What a ripp off!

I remind you that last time I checked, St George were paying
around 8.5% on international funds, NAB recently signed up
at around 5.75%, a few months later. If you were a business,
you would be paying around 10 % for your money.

Maxi, perhaps you should correct your perception of what
usury actually is.

How can you call Rudd left wing. We are all capitalist there is no left wing in Australian politics even the Greenies.

Federal-Reserve;Chairman.Ben.Bernanke..thinks he can hold down US long-term interest rates by purchasing mortgage bonds and US Treasuries...Sixty years ago the Federal Reserve understood that this was an impossible feat.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/long-term-economic-memory-loss.html

After an acrimonious public dispute with the US Treasury,in 1951 the Federal Reserve forced an“Accord”on the government that eliminated the Fed’s obligation to monetize Treasury debt in order to hold down long term interest rates.

The Fed understood that monetizing the debt to hold down interest rates meant loss of control over the money supply...The policy of suppressing interest rates could only work until the financial markets anticipated rising inflation and bid down bond prices.

If the Fed responded by buying more Treasuries,the money supply and inflation would rise faster.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/content/max-keiser-audit-fed-baby-alex-jones-show
Since Fed Chairman Bernanke announced his plan to purchase $1 trillion in mortgage and Treasury bonds in order to help the housing market with low interest rates,..interest rates have risen.

When will the Fed remember that printing money does not lower long-term interest rates?
Fed Inspector General claims to have no knowledge of where 9 trillion was loaned..
http://conspireality.tv/2009/06/07/2439/

Treasury Secretary Geithner is another economic incompetent...He told China that he stood for a“strong dollar,”but that China should let its currency appreciate relative to the dollar,..which,of course, would mean a weaker dollar...He simultaneously told China that their investments in US Treasury bonds were safe.
http://revolutionarypolitics.com/?p=1074

His Chinese university audience,being economically literate,laughed at Geithner...
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/06/head-of-chinas-second-largest-bank-says.html

It apparently did not dawn on the US Treasury Secretary that if Chinese money is rising in value..relative to the US dollar,the value of Chinese investments in dollar-denominated US Treasury bonds is falling.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/06/87-percent-of-chinese-respondents.html

The federal budget for this year is already 50 per cent in the red. Why add another $100 billion to the red ink,[for more war]..which has to be monetized,thus causing inflation,higher interest rates,and a weaker dollar.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090607/ap_on_go_ot/us_wartime_contracting_report
http://moneynews.com/economy/senior_foreclosures/2009/06/08/222669.html?s=al&promo_code=811A-1
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/06/08/newest_tax_scofflaws/

the tale of the 5 mon-keys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZeiSKnhOBc