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The Forum > General Discussion > Does Obama know better than Adams, Jefferson and Churchill or were they Islamophobes?

Does Obama know better than Adams, Jefferson and Churchill or were they Islamophobes?

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Islamic hatred of America “...was founded on the Laws of their Prophet; that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners…”

John Adams and Thomas Jefferson 1786
(as ambassadors to Britain and France respectively)
Adams US President 1797-1801
Jefferson US President 1801-1809

“In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar (Mohammed), the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic and the fraudulent spirit of an imposter, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth…He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy, and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind.”

John Quincy Adams 1830
US President 1825-1829

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!...The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
…No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.
Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa….(except for western science) the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

Winston Churchill 1899
(British Prime Minister 1940-45 & 1951-55)

“We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world — including in my own country (America).”

US President Barack Hussein Obama 2009
(addressing to the Turkish Parliament)

Were Adams Jnr and Snr, Jefferson and Churchill all wrong and Obama right?
Posted by KMB, Wednesday, 22 April 2009 9:35:54 PM
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Just what we needed - an Islamophobic troll.

Yawn.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 22 April 2009 11:49:58 PM
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Actually, according to The Library of Congress,
(which has more than 55 million items)and in The
Library's Manuscript Division, which contains papers of
23 Presidents (from George Washington to Calvin Coolidge),
the Library Papers show an early tolerance for the
Muslim Faith.

The following website:

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html

has the story.

Barack Obama is following the tradition of the Founding Fathers
in supporting the toleration of religious freedom in his country.
And, quite possibly being a Christian and a Leader, he feels
its the right and exemplenary thing to do.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 23 April 2009 12:06:48 AM
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http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=1308

by their deeds will we know them
http://www.kuna.net.kw/NewsAgenciesPublicSite/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=1991080&Language=en

Israeli troops manning the land Al-Ojah checkpoint in Central Sinai sent back 13 truckloads of 250 tons of flour dispatched by the Egyptian Red Crescent to Gaza Strip on Thursday.

while the children starve
http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m53587&hd=&size=1&l=e

The official Egyptian news agency,the Middle East News Agency,quoted a source in the association as saying that the Israeli authorities have hampered dispatch of aid to the Palestinians in Gaza Strip through this checkpoint.

The source indicated that Egyptian authorities, had in the past, coordinated with the Israeli side for the dispatch of the humanitarian aid to the Palestinians.Up to 315 tons of food aid were sent to the strip through the land passageways on Monday.

He indicated that the quality of returned food materials would be affected due to hard weather conditions.

About 10,000 tons of food dispatched by Egyptians, Arabs and foreigners,have been kept in warehouses in Egypt since they were dispatched last December.He warned that they would expire soon, before delivery to the Gazans.

more islamafobe fruit
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/patients-continue-to-die-because-of-israeli-siege-on-gaza/
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/the-nerve-of-those-pesky-palestinians/
http://news.antiwar.com/2009/04/21/israeli-officials-liken-iran-to-nazis-reject-warning-not-to-attack/

http://wire.antiwar.com/2009/04/21/feature-israel-strives-to-re-brand-image/
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1079901.html
http://gawker.com/5222987/meet-israeli-influence-peddler-haim-saban
http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=92172&sectionid=351020601
http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2009/01/24/olmert-reminds-the-world-%E2%80%9Cwe-the-jewish-people-control-america%E2%80%9D/
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1080097.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8011341.stm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6149692.ece
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=1437

http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m53589&hd=&size=1&l=e
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/press-cant-say-it-but-a-blogger-can-jane-harmans-jewish-.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/21/AR2009042102602.html?nav=rss_email/components

http://jnoubiyeh.blogspot.com/2009/04/israeli-refusal-to-cooperate-with.html
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 23 April 2009 7:04:40 AM
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CJ, trolls delight in stirring up trouble and watching people fight.

KMB, on the other hand, just wants to get the word out that Obama is a muslim, we're living in the end times, homosexuals destroy marriages, there's a terrorist under every bed, Israel is above criticism, government is Communism, oligarchy is freedom, negroes have no souls, history is irrelevant, and if you're not absolutely, utterly terrified that the world may end any moment, you're clearly ignorant.

Don't shoot the messenger, man.
Posted by Sancho, Thursday, 23 April 2009 7:35:59 AM
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The short answer: Yes, but not entirely, as in the case of all human opinions captured in history. Someone who was right yesterday, may not be right tomorrow.

The other short answer: meh
Posted by Bugsy, Thursday, 23 April 2009 7:52:08 AM
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Good grief. Heard of 'context', KMB?.

Man I'm jack of this. I'm NOT ALLOWED to ask you guys IF minors SHOULD receive the baby bonus as a result of Carnal Knowledge.....which is a crime. But was 'too out there' for this site, but this tripe gets through. Does my head in Graham. This topic is BLATANT trolling, but here we are.
Posted by StG, Thursday, 23 April 2009 9:04:02 AM
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Groan CONTEXT dear boy CONTEXT.
Foxy is right as usual.

CJ
See you down the pub I feel a need for liquid intellectual anaesthetising.
Posted by examinator, Thursday, 23 April 2009 9:20:17 AM
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Gee KMB. Loaded heading, much?

Before you accuse the negativity toward your post as being some left wing conspiracy, stop for a moment and consider the fact that people don't like having such stances rammed down their throat.

Consider in future, bringing up an issue without an extreme bias clearly showing from the outset.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Thursday, 23 April 2009 11:37:06 AM
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On the other hand -

"The United States of America is in no sense founded in the Christian religion"

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it"

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular Sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?" - John Adams 1797

and

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man..perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind..a mere contrivance (for the clergy) to filch wealth and power to themselves"

"State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine our civil rights"

"The Christian God is a three-headed monster - cruel, vengeful and capricious. One only needs to look at the calibre of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes - fools and hypocrites" - Thomas Jefferson

Churchill called himself an "optimistic agnostic", wanted Truman to nuke the Russians immediately after the war and was eager to gas the kurds but was prevented because it would have caused unrest in the Indian colony.
Posted by wobbles, Thursday, 23 April 2009 8:26:15 PM
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Sancho,
"Obama is a muslim" - nope, never said it
"we're living in the end times" - nope, never said it
"homosexuals destroy marriages" - nope, never said it
"there's a terrorist under every bed" - nope, never said it
"Israel is above criticism" - nope, never said it
"government is Communism" - nope, never said it
"oligarchy is freedom" - nope, never said it
"negroes have no souls" - nope, never said it but I'm prepared to entertain the notion in relation to Obama
"history is irrelevant" - nope, never said it
"end-of-world doubters are ignorant" - nope, never said it
This contribution of yours seems to have been particularly well researched, even by your standards.
Posted by KMB, Thursday, 23 April 2009 9:10:01 PM
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I don't see this as a troll at all. I groaned when I saw another thread dealing with Islam. But it asks some sensible questions. The people who seem to be trolling on this thread are the ones who won't answer the question posed by the quotes. I am not going to refuse someone the right to a post if it is well-expressed and poses a legitimate question, even if I am tired of arguing about the issue that they raise.

If you've got something to say, say it about the arguments raised. Don't spend your time complaining that the argument has been raised.

StG, you want to raise the issue of your post publicly. So be it. The reason it was refused was because it was incoherent and didn't express a point of view that is within a reasonable ambit of debate. I'm not going to discuss it further because that would be tantamount to opening up the debate here.

If you want to raise the issue, set up a blog and post it there. I can give you a number of addresses where you can do this for free. If you want to continue to post here I suggest that you abide by the rules.

The reason that this site is as popular as it is is because we allow a wide range of debate, but we do define boundaries.
Posted by GrahamY, Thursday, 23 April 2009 10:41:13 PM
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So, we have a hate-bait post by KMB, the Clayton's evangelical, endorsed by GrahamY, Christian convert. Yet there is no criticism of Islam in the quotes provided that does not apply equally to Christianity.

"[B]y degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy, and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind.” All encouraged by the Bible, and practiced by Christians throughout history.

"[E]very woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine". How unChristian! But then: www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com/ddinchristianmarriage.html

The lesson of history is that Christianity is just a version of Islam that got castrated by the Renaissance. And thank God for that.

The simple answer is yes, Obama does know better than Adams, Jefferson and Churchill. Unlike them, he has the advantages of a modern education in a global age, and of living in a secular society which allows him to form his own opinions without religious compulsion.

Do you truly believe, Graham, that refusing to rise to KMB's tired "Obama is a secret Muslim!" nonsense constitutes trolling? If so, we need a whole new definition of the word.
Posted by Sancho, Friday, 24 April 2009 12:08:08 AM
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Graham Y
Answering the headline Question to me is begging a Historical and/or Contextual argument.
I am or should be known for my drum beating on 'context'. All the latter politicians named by *today's* standard would appear to some degree racist but in *their* time perhaps not. Except perhaps Churchill while in a bygone context to me he clearly believed that God WAS an Englishman and all else were secondary.
I would contend that even if they were Islamophobes what earthly (pragmatic)value is that to us today other than in a nebulous academic sense i.e. 'comparison of dogmas'.

This in turn implies that there is some worthwhile value in such discourse. A concept which I generally reject because on matters like politics and religion they often degenerate to gain saying and insults.
I view trolling as one line highly prococatively/negative response without any explanation or substance for a rebuttle.i.e. "Only an idiot would believe this" or "more of Kevin/Malcolm's crap".

IS this question trolling? Not in my opinion but neither is it a useful one.
I saw it at yet another badly thought through attempt to an entre to a rave on religion from the highly personal/emotional perspective rather than an objective debate.

Given my opening criteria I believe my comment was neutral in that I did express my reasons i.e. Context.

On my definition the latter part could perhaps be viewed as trolling but in reality was a friendly jibe to CJ. Whose rationality I respect.
The problem I have is that explanations like this are often misinterpreted as being arrogance

In hind sight perhaps I shouldn't have responded at all.
Notwithstanding I apologise for any discomfort I may have caused. This is rarely my intention.
Posted by examinator, Friday, 24 April 2009 9:22:31 AM
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Perhaps Obama went on to explain just how Islam shaped the US of A. I'd suggest only in a refexive, negative way. No to paying tribute, no to slavery, no to the subjugation of women. Yes to apostasy, yes to freedom of belief and disbelief. Yes to individual choice, no to "submission".

'Deep appreciation' my butt. Naysayers, name one Islamic nation that has contributed one zillionth to the wonderful world of technology, of freedom, or freedom to dissent in the last 233 years.

Well said GrahanY
Posted by palimpsest, Friday, 24 April 2009 11:50:19 PM
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Dear palimpsest,

Perhaps the following website may clear
up a few things for you:

http://www.islamic-study.org/setting_the_record_straight.htm

or:

Alternatively you could google:

"Islam's Influence On The World."

It's always good to get a historical perspective
on things.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 25 April 2009 12:22:01 AM
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Foxy,
I know it must be hard to see clearly when you have pixy stardust in your eyes but the site you link to is pure fabrication.
You'd probably be interested in another fantasy site which outlines 1001 Islamic inventions:
http://www.1001inventions.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=main.viewSection&intSectionID=309
If Islam leads to inventiveness why have there only been 3 Nobel Prize winners in Chemistry and Literature and 5 winners in (don't laugh, it's rude) Peace from the billion plus eligible Muslims?
http://www.islamichistorymonth.com/education/nobel.php
Must be the Zionists on the selection panel.
(In fact Jews outperform Muslims by a factor of more than 2000:1 on a per capita basis in respect of Nobel Prize Winners. Interestingly there appear to be no Jewish Peace prize winners (I am not a Jew))
Muslims are no less intelligent than non-Muslims of course (and no more peaceful than Jews) but Islam seriously discourages freedom of inquiry and this could reasonably be hypothesised as a causal factor behind the above discrepancy.
For a more realistic assessment of the impact of Islam on the world I refer you to:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Scroll down to the List of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Last 2 Months and then let me know what you think of Mohammed's contribution to enlightenment, civilisation, inventiveness and world peace.
Posted by KMB, Saturday, 25 April 2009 10:42:57 AM
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Dear KMB,

"Pixy stardust in my eyes?"

Thank you for the compliment.

"For a book by itself is nothing -
a film shown in an empty cinema:
one can only assess its value by
the light it brings to a child's eye."
Elaine Moss.

Having pixie stardust in my eyes is better
than having hatred -isn't it?

Tor Hundloe points out in his book, "From Buddha
to Bono,":

"Today we might have very serious concerns with the
fundamentalist fringe of Islam - but we should never
forget the role of the Muslim scholars of 1000 or
so years ago. These people discovered (just as some of
their Christian counterparts did) that scholarship
was possible in an ostensibly religious environment..."

The point that I was making was -
when assessing what's currently happening in the world -
we should look at the entire picture, not just a part of it.
As others have pointed out to you - it is a question
of context.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 25 April 2009 12:21:53 PM
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Dear KMB,

I forgot to add the following for your information:

1) The first Muslim Nobel Scientist was - Abdus Salam.
2) 2003 Nobel Peace Prize winner was Iranian - Shirin Ebadi.
3) Egyptian President Anwar Sadat shared the Nobel Peace Prize
with Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin (1978).
4) The Nobel Literature Prize went to Egyptian writer -
Naguib Mahfouz(1988).
5) In 1994 - Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat shared the
Peace Prize with Israel's Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and
Foreign Minister Shimon Peres.
6) in 1999 - Egyptian scientist Ahmed Zewail won the Nobel
Chemistry Prize.
7) Mohamad ElBaradei, the Egyptian Director General of the
International Atomic Energy Authority (IAEA) received the
Peace Prize.
8) In 2006 Muhammad Yunus from Bangladesh received the Peace
Prize.

As Mostaz Attallah says in the Comments section of this
website:

http://blog.oup.com/2009/01/islam-nobel-prize/

"It is unfair to judge the contribution of Islam and
Muslims to humanity by considering only 110 years of the
history of mankind. During this period the majority of the
Muslim nations were first under occupation by the Western
countries, and only became independent starting in the 1940s...

A BBC program a week ago on Science in Islam...showed that
many of the great scientific discoveries were actually made by
Muslim scientists...

In all cases, Nobel prize is not an excellent criterion to
judge the contribution of a certain race/religion/nationality
to mankind. Otherwise, you could erroneously deny almost
any contribution for China or India, based on the number of
Nobel prizes they received to their population."
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 25 April 2009 1:12:53 PM
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Well done Foxy,

And you have the good grace to acknowledge when you have been in error in the past. Let us see if KMB exhibits the same quality unless he thinks Peres, Rabin and Begin weren't Jews.
Posted by csteele, Saturday, 25 April 2009 1:48:54 PM
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csteele,
Thank you for pointing out my error.
I'm always pleased to learn where I'm wrong although I deliberately used the phrase "there appear to be no Jewish Peace prize winners" because the source I used excluded them.
My fault, not the source's fault as it was after all the Israel Science and Technology webpage.
The upshot then is that Jews are disproportionately greater recipients (over Muslims) of the Nobel Peace prize also, by a factor of about 70 (correct me if I'm wrong). Who'd have thought?

Foxy,
If "it is unfair to judge the contribution of Islam and
Muslims to humanity by considering only 110 years of the
history of mankind"
then you must agree that we should consider the whole 14 centuries of Islamic contributions.
This would require us to seriously increase the body count from that documented at:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
to an estimated 270 million non-Muslim people killed by Islamic jihad, documented at:
http://www.politicalislam.com/tears/pages/tears-of-jihad/
(This site will give you a good grounding in the Koran, if you're interested)
If you add internecine warfare the numbers would be considerably higher.
So Islam may have made a very large contribution but perhaps not in the way that you suggest.
Hundloe's "fundamentalist fringe of Islam" must have been very inventive, at least when it came to warfare.
Posted by KMB, Saturday, 25 April 2009 3:50:34 PM
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Definitely not an Islamophobic troll.

Who'd have thought?

This is one of those areas where I disagree with GrahamY and palimpsest - and one or two others, no doubt.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 25 April 2009 7:52:32 PM
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Dear KMB,

It seems to me that no matter what facts
are presented to you, you are really not
interested in them. All you seem to want
to do is present Islam in a negative light.

I don't see the point in continuing
with this exercise in futility with what
appears to me now to be a disfunctional discussion.
I'm beginning to become suspicious about
your motives in presenting this thread.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion, only
because I feel that there's enough hatred in
the world - and I don't really care to continue
to encourage you to keep on about the
negativity of Islam - it's a bit one-sided when
all you are capable of doing is going on only
about the "bad," things that Islam has done.
There's no balance in your arguments.

To quote from the website that I gave you earlier:

"The West has grown to view the Orient from afar
through a thick prism which distorts the transmitted
image..."

As for Tor Hundloe, he does point out that just as we
have very serious concerns about the 'fundamentalist
fringes of Islam', we should also be equally concerned
about the fundamentalist fringes of Christianity and
Hinduism. After all it was the West - rather than the
Muslim lands - that set the scene for the so called
clashes of civilisation of the early 21st century.

See you on another thread.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 25 April 2009 8:24:34 PM
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KMB,

Foxy was the one who pointed out your error, I simply congratulated him/her.

"The upshot then is that Jews are disproportionately greater recipients (over Muslims) of the Nobel Peace prize also, by a factor of about 70 (correct me if I'm wrong)."

Yup you are wrong. There are not 70 times the number of Jewish recipients of the Nobel Peace prize compared to Muslim ones. Getting to be a bit of a habit? Perhaps you would like to stop there.

"5 winners in (don't laugh, it's rude) Peace from the billion plus eligible Muslims?"

Did you laugh when you learned there were Jewish recipients of the Peace Prize or was your humour reserved for Muslim winners? Began was universally recognised as a terrorist but is that irrelevant because he is Jewish? Or am I misconstruing your mirth?
Posted by csteele, Sunday, 26 April 2009 12:55:27 PM
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To answer the question, I think that Obama has a more modern
worldview, as much has changed over the years.

Extremists of any religion are a problem and are divisive,
not just Islam.

The way I sum him up is a bit how I see things, ie tolerance
matters and today we are intolerant of the intolerant.

In many Islamic countries, people don't yet have the right to
express themselves freely as we do in ex Christian countries.
But those freedoms that we have, they did not come lightly.

The Catholic Church did not give up its enormous powers freely.
Huge wars were fought, it took hundreds of years for the
secular state as we know it, to evolve.

I believe that the internet is going to have an enlightening
effect on many nations and their citizens. No longer can they
be isolated about what to think, as in the past. Already we
are seeing huge pressures for change in highly conservative
nations like Saudi Arabia etc, courtesy of the net. It might
not happen overnight, as cultural change takes time, but the
pressures are certainly there today.

If we look at Isreal, it is not the secular Jews that are the
problem, but the extremists. The same applies to Christians and
the same applies to Muslims.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 26 April 2009 2:14:34 PM
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csteele,
3 out of (say) 12,000,000 Jews
5 out of (say) 1,400,000,000 Muslims
equates to about 70:1 "on a per capita basis" using the same unit of measure as implied by my original post.

<<Did you laugh when you learned there were Jewish recipients of the Peace Prize or was your humour reserved for Muslim winners? Began (sic) was universally recognised as a terrorist but is that irrelevant because he is Jewish? Or am I misconstruing your mirth?>>

Sorry, I must have missed all the stories of:
Jews flying passenger airplanes into skyscrapers,
Jews beheading hostages over the internet,
Jews beheading Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia,
Jews issuing and carrying out death threats when someone criticizes their religion,
Jews killing Jewish apostates,
Jews stoning adulterers,
Jews hanging homosexuals,
Jews threatening to wipe Muslims off the earth,
Jews co-opting children and the mentally incapacitated into blowing themselves up in crowded markets,
Jews rioting, killing and torching mosques when they're offended by cartoons,
Sectarian Jewish killings,
Jews firing rockets from schools and apartment buildings,
Jews holding children hostage in schools before killing them,
Jews pushing wheelchair bound passengers off passenger ships,
all while screaming....Yahweh is great!

And you're offended by a little laugh?
You have to laugh or you'd cry.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Posted by KMB, Sunday, 26 April 2009 2:50:09 PM
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kmb making his points<<Sorry,I must have missed all the stories of:
Jews flying passenger airplanes into skyscrapers,>>
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=gd&rls=MEDA,MEDA:2008-36,MEDA:en-GB&hl=en-GB&oe=UTF-8&q=911%20jewish%20conection&sa=N&tab=xw

<<Jews beheading hostages over the internet>>,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=MEDA%2CMEDA%3A2008-36%2CMEDA%3Aen-GB&q=jewish+atrocities&btnG=Search

Jews issuing and carrying out death threats when someone criticizes their religion,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbUODC8kGuU&sdig=1
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=10486
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/objects/pages/ResponseDetails.jhtml?resNo=2172006&itemno=860849

Jews killing apostates,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=MEDA%2CMEDA%3A2008-36%2CMEDA%3Aen-GB&q=Jews+killing+&btnG=Search

Jews stoning adulterers,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=MEDA%2CMEDA%3A2008-36%2CMEDA%3Aen-GB&q=Jews+stoning+adulterers&btnG=Search

Jews hanging homosexuals,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=MEDA%2CMEDA%3A2008-36%2CMEDA%3Aen-GB&q=Jews+homosexual+porn&btnG=Search
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-pornography-folder.html

Jews threatening to wipe Muslims off the earth,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=MEDA%2CMEDA%3A2008-36%2CMEDA%3Aen-GB&q=Jews+threatening+&btnG=Search
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mScWWtRfGQ

Jews co-opting children,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=MEDA%2CMEDA%3A2008-36%2CMEDA%3Aen-GB&q=Jews+pervert+children&btnG=Search
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-entertainment-folder.html

Jews rioting, killing and torching mosques
http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0342.htm

Sectarian Jewish killings,
http://www.newsfrommiddleeast.com/?new=50689

Jews firing rockets from schools and apartment buildings,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=MEDA%2CMEDA%3A2008-36%2CMEDA%3Aen-GB&q=israel+bomb+school&btnG=Search

Jews holding children hostage ,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=MEDA%2CMEDA%3A2008-36%2CMEDA%3Aen-GB&q=israel+human+shields&btnG=Search

mate the list is endless
http://sacredearth.org/CD_Image/Jew_Watch_-_The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion_Folder.htm
http://jewwatch.com/index.htm
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-communists.html
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-folder.htm
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-atrocities-folder.html
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-jewishbankingandfinancialmanipulations-folder.html
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-medialies-folder.html
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 26 April 2009 3:36:24 PM
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KMB,

Jewish recipients of the US National Medal of Science are 38% of the total while making up only 1.7% of the population. That is a factor of 22 PER CAPITA and one might have thought it highly statistically significant. Can I now claim that “American Christians are no less intelligent than American Jews of course but Christianity seriously discourages freedom of inquiry and this could reasonably be hypothesised as a causal factor behind the above discrepancy.”?

The events you describe in your list are indeed tragic and deserving of anyone’s tears but as an Australian I feel great shame and distress over the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children who died as a direct result of the inhumane and vicious blockade of that country, one that we, as a nation, participated in. Madeline Albright’s assessment that it was ‘worth it’ still sears today. If we were to start crunching some per capita numbers I think you might want to add to your list.

A small aside, three of Madeline Albright’s grandparents were lost in the Holocaust, her parents were Jewish converts to Christianity but under the definition of a Jew provided by the website you quote from “a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox.” I’m not sure but it appears she may well have been considered a Jew for the purposes of counting for the Nobel Prize winners. If I were following your rhetoric KMB I could then claim that “one of the most powerful Jews in the world at that time deemed the deaths of half a million Muslim children was worth curbing a leader who controlled a large slice of the Middle East’s oil supply.”

I am quite sure there would be a Muslim equivalent KMB making that very assertion, probably on a website similar to this one. I hope there are moderating voices there too.
Posted by csteele, Sunday, 26 April 2009 4:40:00 PM
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csteele
Christianity does not seriously discourage freedom of inquiry in the way Islam seriously discourages
freedom of inquiry so I'm afraid I can't see the relevance of your hypothetical statement.
Madeline Albright recently stated that "in many ways Islam is maybe the most democratic religion" which makes
her statements rather questionable to say the least.
And sorry I couldn't find mad Maddie at http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/
so I'm not quite sure what point you're raising.
OUG
A google search for Jewish Conspiracy Theories yielding 885,000 links does not a reference make.
Nevertheless I diligently read them all.
I even cross-referenced some of them.
Perlmutter was taken out of context as you'll find if you read the whole article here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/forum.zagraniczne@3w3.net/msg00546.html
After reading all the links I think I've got the picture:
Jewish puppet masters are orchestrating all the acts of Islamic violence and
the poor mujahideen are merely unwittingly carrying them out.
If you think they're pissed off at the Jews now, think how angry they'll be when they find out they've been duped.
Posted by KMB, Sunday, 26 April 2009 6:39:02 PM
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KMB from your 2002 link<<I simmer,about how I see Jews fighting consistently for the good of all--from the civil rights movement to the salvation of Bosnian Muslims,but when the hangman comes for us,we find ourselves standing alone.>>ok two points usa support for israel is extensive search reveals 1.3 TRILLION of aid gone to israel alone[the support for israel

control by the israel lobby is beyond dispute][yes there are jews running hundreds or oganisations/protest groups,lobby groups, industry organisations media law banking,science..[but all for the greater service of the homland..[israel]its a closed shop[mossad makes a point to intrench one of them with every group,..its standard operating procedure
<<I see Arafat,sitting in his bunker,talking to"international activists"and proclaiming that the Israelis are just like Nazis.>.
http://www.peacetakescourage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9505&p=76318&hilit=hamas+deal+with+israel#p76318
quote<<Fatah’s relationship with the CIA became apparent last year when Fatah security compounds in Gaza were raided by Hamas..discovered CIA files which purportedly contain“information about the collaboration between Fatah and the Israeli and American security organizations;

more from your link>..is is what I'm reduced to: thinking like a Nazi when an Arab accuses Jews of acting like Nazis.>>read the rest of the abouve links[exposing the whole deal
>>>teach political communication--atIsrael's unsophisticated, unplanned media policy.>>lol
<<One journalist noted to me:"The Palestinians will go to the news
bureaus each day and pitch stories>>yes but see who organises WHAT GOES ON AIR, works for israel intel[who vet all the news[so no negative israel stuff gets to air]look at who gets to make the commenbtary[the majority are israel intel agents making commentary[wont get into murdoch etc who run the media[fox etc]

<<all you get is statements,silence or red tape>>egsactly
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 26 April 2009 8:50:36 PM
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KMB
The quotes you offerred date back as far as the 1700s and the most recent being 1955.

You cannot possibly compare the state of the world and popular thought as it was to the present world in 2009. We are now a global economy with vast improvements in technology with greater access to information, and hence knowledge about other peoples than ourselves.

Obama's attempts to be inclusive are not to be derided but encouraged. A truly secular world can only be nutured in an environment that does not attempt to exclude. Exclusion is just one ingredient in the growth of religious fundamentalism.

Your comments are only valid in relation to fundamentalist Islam. Just as they would be for be any fundamentalist regime which includes terrorism.

Christians no longer advocate for Crusades although there are still missionary programs, but thankfully not violent in nature.

The simple mistake you make is confusing Islamic terrorist groups with Islam - the religion. The Taliban does not represent all Muslims.

Any religion or religious texts will and can be distorted for evil purposes, which in the end, have very little to do with religion and more to do with economic and social status. Thriving economies with a high standard of living tend not to breed terrorism.

If Christians were tarred with the same brush as the oppressive and incestuous sects in the American bible belts you would be the first to jump up and say but they are not real Christians who follow the message of Christ.
Posted by pelican, Monday, 27 April 2009 8:55:22 AM
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Pelican,
"The simple mistake you make is confusing Islamic terrorist groups with Islam - the religion."
False, terrorists derive their justification directly from the Koran and the actions of Mohammed who represents their ideal man.
The simple mistake you make is not being able to reconcile the fact that most Muslims are peace loving, in accordance with the best of human nature, whereas Islam in its literal form brings out the worst in human nature.
Just study the actual life of Mohammed.

"The Taliban does not represent all Muslims."
True, but it does represent Islam in its purest form.

"Any religion or religious texts will and can be distorted for evil purposes..."
True, but the Islamic texts are not being distorted by terrorists, they are being distorted by "moderates" and their western apologists.

"...which in the end, have very little to do with religion and more to do with economic and social status."
False, otherwise why don't you see all impoverished non-Islamic societies engaging in Islamic-style terrorism?
Osama bin Laden came from a very wealthy family.
Some of the highest profile terrorists have been doctors and engineers, etc.

"Thriving economies with a high standard of living tend not to breed terrorism."
Hmmm...trillions of petro-dollars don't seem to have helped the middle east much.

The terror:poverty link is just not demonstrable but the terror:Islam link is.

http://myminddroppings.wordpress.com/2008/12/09/the-root-cause-of-islamic-terror-is-islam-itself/
Posted by KMB, Monday, 27 April 2009 10:28:31 AM
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And what motivates the Tamils and Basques and Irish, KMB? Islam?

It's clear that it isn't violence that upsets you, but Islam's claim to be the one true religion. But you know that YOURS is the one true religion, and thus any flimsy propaganda is justified in the war on the infidels.
Posted by Sancho, Monday, 27 April 2009 12:12:54 PM
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KMB
"The terror:poverty link is just not demonstrable but the terror:Islam link is." This is less than sustainable in fact.

You are now showing your lack of knowledge of both Islam and the history of "their terrorism". I suggest you read about the Muslim Brotherhood. Then once you've absorbed that perhaps you'll be able to take part in an informed discussion on the topic. Clearly you don't know, understand or want to understand.

Of particular note is both their ideology and the circumstances for their creation and pospering.
BTW Wikipedia is not reading on the subject. any more than reading the daily BS/paper a source for real information.
Posted by examinator, Monday, 27 April 2009 1:10:15 PM
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Sancho,

re: "the Tamils and Basques and Irish"

I asked "otherwise why don't you see ALL impoverished non-Islamic societies engaging in Islamic-style terrorism?"
I didn't pretend that there were no other such examples.
The isolated cases that you refer to are localised issues more related to claims for autonomy/terrirory.
The problem with Islam is that it claims the entire world as its territory under the authority of Allah while categorically denying the autonomy of Dar al-Harb and hence we have global jihad.

"It's clear that it isn't violence that upsets you, but Islam's claim to be the one true religion. But you know that YOURS is the one true religion, and thus any flimsy propaganda is justified in the war on the infidels."

Localised violence is of course regrettable but it doesn't represent the existential threat posed by those who crash airliners into skscrapers or who would gleefully release anthrax into Western cities.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2d5_1240507553
Many religions "claim to be the one true religion" and why wouldn't they?
It's only appeasers who can accommodate multiple, mutually exclusive "truths".
My denying Christ three times will never convince you I'm not a Christian so what more can I say?
Nevertheless those fanatics have some interesting Koranic quotes:
http://www.letusreason.org/Islam12.htm

We started with one of his quotes and here we go again:
"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping it will eat him last" Winston Churchill

I have to go now, I think I hear a cock crowing.
There it goes again.
Posted by KMB, Monday, 27 April 2009 1:30:58 PM
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*I suggest you read about the Muslim Brotherhood.*

Ah Examinator, but out of the Muslim Brotherhood came
Sayd Qutb and "Milestones", freely available on the net.

It is Qutb's philosophies that are followed by Al Queda
and others.

Yes, the Koran is a violent book with violent suggestions.
So is the old Testament. Few Xtians take the old Testament
seriously, but many Muslims take the Koran seriously.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 27 April 2009 1:34:56 PM
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“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.”
Adolf Hitler

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.
Jesus John 8:44

You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

KMB,

Would a per capita basis of the number of Jews killed by Christians in the last century compared to Jews killed by Muslims be of any use to you?
Posted by csteele, Monday, 27 April 2009 3:04:44 PM
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lest we forget the bolchovics killed 25 million xtians
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-USSRchristians.html

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-folder.htm

who were the bolchovics
http://jewwatch.com/jew-communists.html

as to flying into buildings
http://www.rense.com/general21/was911mossad.htm
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-hatehoaxes-911-world-trade-center-hoax.html

more info you can claim to have read kbm..lol,,try googling the links

there is little doudt about how important jewish colusions have been in developing humanity to this stage of evoplving[but its time people knew what was done to keep the show[and the power] in house

50 of the top richest people in the world are jew

in every field of human indeavour you will find one of the deciever brotherhood; running things..[at or near the top..[but that list..dosnt exclude..most acts of terror]rread the anciant texts to see how they so love war, love gold, love positions of power

credit where credit is due/jew
Posted by one under god, Monday, 27 April 2009 4:58:32 PM
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"False, terrorists derive their justification directly from the Koran..."

Justification for violence can be drawn from any bibilical text including the Bible. It is the root causes of terrorism that might lead one to seek 'guidance' or 'approval' from a religious text of which the original meaning can be easily distorted. Religious fervour will fuel the passion for terrorism, the cause will always be a sense of injustice spurred by any number of reasons (economic, property, past injustices, social, war).

"The Taliban does not represent all Muslims. True, but it does represent Islam in its purest form."

Would the first version of the Bible reflect Christianity in its truest form? It was pretty violent from memory and very different from the current version. How many references do we still hear from highly religious nations like the US - "fighting for God and country".

"...but the Islamic texts are not being distorted by terrorists, they are being distorted by "moderates" and their western apologists."

See above.

"False, otherwise why don't you see all impoverished non-Islamic societies engaging in Islamic-style terrorism? Osama bin Laden came from a very wealthy family. Some of the highest profile terrorists have been doctors and engineers, etc."

Yes but the fuel is injustice - whether it be economic or in the case of Ireland disputes over land ownership. An educated person can still be fired up by a sense of injustice whether real, perceived or overstated.

"Hmmm...trillions of petro-dollars don't seem to have helped the middle east much."

Yes but how is this wealth distributed.

Much of the terrorist activity borne in the Middle East still harks back to old wounds such as Israel/Palestine conflict and Western apologists for the State of Israel ie. sanction of any land grabs by Israel to the detriment of Palestinians including terrorist activity by some of the more militant Jewish settlers.

The invasion of Iraq added fuel to this age old conflict ie. perception of the 'underdog' Middle East versus the West, both sides thinking they are sanctioned by God, their own interpretation of justice and of history.
Posted by pelican, Monday, 27 April 2009 4:59:44 PM
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Pelican,
Good point!
Posted by Psychophant, Monday, 27 April 2009 6:24:09 PM
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Hey now Under One God lets just slow up a little mate.

I was with you when it appeared you were posting 'hate' links because I thought you were making a point (garbled a little I would have to concede) about the absurdity of KMB was using the same to bolster his arguments.

However I may have been mistaken. When you let a statement like "50 of the top richest people in the world are Jew" stand alone then I get concerned. In the very least it is stereotyping and at its worst is anti-Semitic.

Perhaps some qualification from you is in order.

From my quick research the amount of Jews in the Forbes Rich List or in Australia's top 100 is about proportionate with their representation in winners of the US National Medal of Science (see above). I'm not afraid to have a rational discussion of why that is but would have real problems if the import of that statistic was twisted to re-enforce hate-mongering.

If I have misinterpreted your post then apologies.
Posted by csteele, Monday, 27 April 2009 6:45:36 PM
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csteele,
Hitler may have called himself a Christian but he hardly behaved in a Christ-like manner.
The Koran sets Mohammed up as the perfect example...
"We have indeed, in the Messenger of Allah, a good example (of conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day. [Holy Qur'an 33: ayat 21] "
http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/muhammad/perfect_man.html
...so that all Muslims are enjoined to emulate him.
Unfortunately, many do.

Mohammed:

* Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
* Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101).
* Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).
* Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
* Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
* Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
* Never be a helper to the disbelievers (Sura 28:86).
* Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191).
* The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land (Sura 5:33).

Jesus:

*Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, pray for them which despitefully use you (Matthew 5:44).
* If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to them the other (Matthew 5:39).
* If someone takes your coat, give them your shirt (Matthew 5:40).
* If someone makes you carry something one mile, carry it two (Matthew 5:41).
* Forgive and you shall be forgiven (Matthew 6:14).
* Judge not, that ye be not judged (Matthew 7:1).
* Blessed are the peacemakers (Matthew 5:9).
* Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy (Matthew 5:7).
* Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not kill, but I say who ever is angry with his brother is in danger of the judgment (Matthew 5:21-22).
* Treat others the same way you want them to treat you (Luke 6:27-36).
Posted by KMB, Monday, 27 April 2009 7:50:08 PM
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KMB,

No, Hitler was only the climax of nearly 2000 years of Christian persecution of the Jews. In many European countries such as Lithuania and France during WW2 the populations took the licence presented by Hitler to carry out their own extermination of thousands of Jews.

It is only the depravity of the concentration camps and gas chambers that shamed nations around the world into disavowing entrenched anti-semiticism that existed until then in their own countries.

As to your quotes from the Koran it says a lot about your agenda when you not only take them out of context but misquote as well.

An example;

You wrote "* Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191)."

The verse actually says "You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers."

Followed by [2:192] "If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful."

And [2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

The preceding verse was [2:190] "You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors."

In light of your rewrites why can't we view your actions as hatemongering? Isn't this just a switching of targets by some in the West, from Jews to Muslims?
Posted by csteele, Tuesday, 28 April 2009 12:29:40 AM
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ok cs maybe your number is the british ones
http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/1857_richest_jews_in_brit.htm

or try 36 percent
http://www.jewishtribalreview.org/forbes.htm

its not easy info to find
some in depth research here
http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=22003
or here
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-list-of-jewish-millionaires.html

i dont like rebutting the dudes distortions
but like i said there are two sides to the coin

anyhow the really rich have trust funds[my dfigure came from last year rich list[it was over 50%]and many of the others worked for jewish masters, its not really a secret, the info is just hard to track down

[google search puts up many bad search results just for the term jewwatch], you get .orgs , jew jew etc ..but not the jewwatch.com]

its just the way it is

this is the 3 rd search result
http://www.petitiononline.com/rjw23/
but the .com dont even rate the first page
such is the true power due
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 28 April 2009 12:53:09 AM
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anyhow more on the pig link
http://passion4science.blogspot.com/
some great links revealed here[current 2 de post is very astute..[i wish i could write like that..lol]..but god gave me skills to search other peoples words[lol]

its sad being a responder who corrects error
but some more links re the new renamed mex swine/bird/.human mutant flue from
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?cmd=archives
which has the active links[here is the topic headings[thats all kmg reads anyhow..lol]
Hate Bill Vote Could Be Tuesday
WHO raises pandemic flu alert level to phase 4
Napolitano: Closing border not the answer to flu

Mexico’s Flu Death Toll Rises, While U.S. Confirms 40 Cases
The First Global Revolution: Blueprint for a new global order
US military ‘monitoring’ flu outbreak

40 swine flu cases in US; agents checking borders

Schertz, Texas, closes all schools due to local swine flu cases
Powerful Earthquake Rocks Swine Flu Plagued Mexico City
Russia Suspends Mexican, Some U.S. Meat Imports

Mexican swine flu deaths spark worldwide action
Israeli suspected of having swine flu in Mideast first

Canada confirms first cases of swine flu
Mexico fights swine flu with ‘pandemic potential’
Top Cancer Scientist Commits Suicide Using Highly Toxic Chemicals..lol

The IMF: Raping The World,..One Poor Nation at a Time
Fertility expert:..‘I can clone a human being’
Green Group Calls For Once Child Policy

Sen...Patrick“Leaky”Leahy to Investigate Top Secret Interrogations
The Torture Issue That Won’t Go Away

Economic Fallout Hits Families Hard: More Women and Children on the Streets
Hugo and Barack: Two Sides of the Same Coin
Is Cigarette Control Turning Citizens into Criminals?
Hijacking The Tea Party: Watch Out For Gingrich

1976 Swine Flu Propaganda

anyhow time to find out what really hapend
http://whatreallyhappened.com/
while listening live to the rep radio link[ya all missed some good revelations in the last few hours...lol
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 28 April 2009 10:50:26 AM
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The Protocols Of Zion..A one page summary
http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/the-protocols-of-zion-summary/

Goyim are mentally inferior to Jews and can’t run their nations properly.For their sake and ours,..we need to abolish their governments and replace them with a single government...This will take a long time and involve much bloodshed,but it’s for a good cause...Here’s what we’ll need to do:

*Place our agents and helpers everywhere
*Take control of the media and use it in propaganda for our plans
*Start fights between different races,..classes and religions
*Use bribery,threats and blackmail to get our way
*Use Freemasonic/Lodges to attract potential public officials
*Appeal to successful people’s egos
*Appoint puppet leaders who can be controlled by blackmail
*Replace royal rule with socialist rule,..then communism,..then despotism
*Abolish all rights and freedoms,except the right of force by us

*Sacrifice people(including Jews sometimes)when necessary
*Eliminate religion;replace it with science and materialism
*Control the educationmedia/banking.political-system's to spread deception and destroy intellect

*Rewrite history to our benefit
*Create entertaining distractions
*Corrupt minds with filth and perversion
*Encourage people to spy on one another
*Keep the masses in poverty and perpetual labor

*Take possession of all wealth,property and(especially)gold
*Use gold to manipulate the markets,cause depressions etc.
*introduce a progressive tax on wealth
*Replace sound investment with speculation
*Make long-term interest-bearing loans to governments
*Give bad advice to governments and everyone else

Eventually the Goyim will be so angry with their governments(because we’ll blame them for the resulting mess)that they’ll gladly have us take over...We will then appoint a descendant of David to be king of the world,and the remaining Goyim will bow down and sing his praises. Everyone will live in peace and obedient order under his glorious rule.

THE PROTOCOLS OF ZION(complete protocols&summary)
http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Protocols.in.Modern.English.htm
http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/2009/03/11/the-modern-state-of-israel-providence-miracle-or-what-really-happened/
http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/2009/03/16/six-jewish-companies-own-96-of-the-worlds-media/
http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/2009/03/10/please-dont-riot-its-just-what-they-want/
http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/2009/03/02/zionist-jewish-hollywoods-brainwashing-of-america/
more liks at top link..lol
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 28 April 2009 11:07:03 AM
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One Under God,

Why do you even read this crap much less peddle it?

Your jewwatch.com link has Bill Gates and Warren Buffet listed as MARANO - HIDDEN JEW - PSEUDO-JEW. What the hell? So has the racist idiom that if your a Jew you must be rich progessed to if you are rich you must be a Jew? Can't you see how ludicrous this is?

I looked up MARANO in Wikipedia because I hadn't come across it before and the term refers to the forced Jewish converts to Christianity in Spain who were deemd to be 'secret jews'. It means 'pig' in Spanish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marano

Ironically it is a litany of Jewish persecution, even those who escaped to places like Italy "Two years later Pope Paul IV issued orders to have all the conversos thrown into the prisons of the Inquisition which he had instituted. Sixty of them, who acknowledged the Catholic faith as penitents, were transported to the island of Malta; twenty-four, who adhered to Judaism, were publicly burned (May, 1556)."

My point was that why are we accepting of the fact that Jews make up a disproportionate number of Science award reciprients but have a real problem when those statistics are reflected in the business field?

I'm still uneasy judging you UOG without being confident where you stand. Perhaps some enlightening is in order.

This should be an example to KMB of where disinformation and slander can lead
Posted by csteele, Tuesday, 28 April 2009 11:12:50 AM
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"one under god"?? Holy hits!!
Posted by Ginx, Tuesday, 28 April 2009 12:39:32 PM
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I wouldn't bother, guys. Trying to debate OUG is doomed to fail:

www.flamewarriors.com/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm
Posted by Sancho, Tuesday, 28 April 2009 1:04:12 PM
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Yabby

Yes it is a extremist group but that wasn't what I was saying
My comment was geared for KMG to read their background the reason for their perspective then compare it to terrorists around the world...A wider perspective rather than his Islamophobia. He carries on as though Islam invented or is the sole source of terrorism and that it's because of Islam which is patently incorrect. The point made was Islam is the vector not the cause any more than Christianity is to blame for Waco Texas and or a myriad of other extremist Christian actions.
I suspect KMG's favourite source is a Right wing Paper and his reasoning is likewise

For such a well informed man you seem to be making a habit of missing the point.
I suggest when contradicting me you first understand what I'm responding to. (context)
I have no interest in continuing the debate further than the point made.
Posted by examinator, Tuesday, 28 April 2009 1:37:09 PM
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im glad you raised the point[but mate wikipedia is ONE source]

its fully able to be edited..[by near anyone at any time]

also you may have=googled'the search..[google is like the previous link..controled by the same cartel..that owns 96 percent of the media..[so i used yahoo]

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGkkGMWvZJPo4Adcml87UF?p=definition+MARANO+-+HIDDEN+JEW+&fr=sfp&fr2=&iscqry=

here is what i found

Marrano:Definition from Answers.com
www.answers.com/topic/marrano -

Inquisition:definition .www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Inquisition.htm

History of the Jews in Italy -Wikipedia,.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Italy

History of the Jews in England -Wikipedia, .
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_England

JewishEncyclopedia.com -INQUISITION
www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=148&letter=I

Europe as Israel History Empire of Jews.www.new-tradition.org/jews.html

[PDF] Encyclopedia of Ancient and Forbidden Secrets
2063k-Adobe PDF

tvermontmason.com/Docs/Encyclopedia of Ancient and Forbidden Secrets...
Diana West
.www.jewishworldreview.com/0303/west.html

Debra J. Saunders
...www.jewishworldreview.com/0303/saunders.html

New Vedic Order-KKK-White Nationalism-British Israel
.....www.16108.com/NewVedicOrder/

so here the same search [google]

Warren Buffett, Marano jewMARANO-HIDDEN JEW-PSEUDO-JEW...only a few friends left in jewish community..net/warrenbuffett.htm

Which of the richest men in the world are jews? ..
www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=160651

Young Judaea/FZY Year Course Blog:...
yearcourse.co.il/YCblog/administrator/2007/09/

Letters published in the Times-Topix2.
www.topix.net/forum/city/prado-verde-tx/TSLC2Q2VMBRU4RPIB

HomeThe girls are taught special Marano prayers
www.cryptojews.com/mestizo.html

History of the Jews in Italy-Wikipedia ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_Italy

Jewish Contributions to SocietyFind a small list ...
judaism.about.com/od/culture/a/contribution.htm

History of the Jews in England..
www.experiencefestival.com/history_of_the_jews_in_england_-_the_statutum_de_judaismo_1275

Marrano: Definition from Answers.comT..
www.answers.com/topic/marrano

Fun Jewish Facts»2009»

so you see all searches arnt equal..lol

but my post limit is gone
[from the yahoo search..[more..if needed]

http://www.new-tradition.org/jews.html
suggest you find other means to verify your own comprehention
[i learn too much searching for your proofs]
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 28 April 2009 11:42:36 PM
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KMB wrote, "My denying Christ three times will never convince you I'm not a Christian so what more can I say?"

You mean you’re a secular, atheist/agnostic Australian who is fiercely anti-abortion: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2654&page=1

Stridently anti-gay: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=8779#139181

Relies on evangelical Christian websites for information: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=8779&page=0#139953

Easily reels off a page of obscure religious passages: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2714&page=0#61217

And, of course, uses explicitly fundamentalist expressions such as "denying Christ"?

Well, you’re correct in judging that you'll be taken less seriously if you admit your religion, but what does it say about the strength of your faith that you’ll lie rather than defend it?

I’ve been engaging with your arguments directly for the last few weeks, and you have done nothing but dodge, prevaricate, dissemble and point-blank refuse to answer the simplest and most obvious questions raised by your statements. You throw red herrings about like Christ at a sermon and seem to believe that if you repeat an easily-refuted line often enough it will be accepted as undeniable fact.

If you felt that your arguments could stand up, you’d defend them on their merits. Instead, you have avoided proper debate at every opportunity, and simply demonstrated that you don’t believe in what you’re saying.

KMB, I am satisfied that you are unable to build a persuasive argument and have nothing to contribute to a reasonable and mature discussion. From now on I will ignore your posts.

Regards
Sancho
Posted by Sancho, Wednesday, 29 April 2009 11:27:17 AM
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KMB quote<<Many religions"claim to be the one true religion"and why wouldn't they?>>religions cant claim nothing, people proclaiming relious beliefs via holy text's might make claim, but religions are not able to talkk[they are a lable that divides gods sheep from gods goats]

as writers have written all wells[religions]..draw their waters from the same source..[one god..gives ALL LIFE..their life to live]

..religions formed arround which messenger informs about god..[is the supreem absurdity]

all messenger revealed thier experiences of/with god..[who not a mess-anger of god?[christ said do as you see i do..the concept of any one religion alone being the only correct one is PLAINLY absurd;..as is people claiming to be gods chosen..[god choses..every life..life that lives their very lives to gods greater glory]..one god gives all life

<<It's only appeasers who can accommodate multiple,mutually exclusive"truths".>>yeah love god..love neighbour..[talk about appeasing god...how dare he appease..[jesus came to unite the fathers house..[not form his own new religion]

<<My denying Christ three times>>..you yet deney christ[a mere messenger[worse your VERY OWN BROTHER,you both follow the same messenger's..except your decieved by the talmudic deceptions

<<I'm not a Christian so what more can I say?>>..never a truer word was spoken

YOUR RIGHT<<My denying Christ three times will never convince you>>[you left out the comma]..just as your words reveal more than you realise

[but its ok bro[GOD LOVES OUR PASSION]..just get over there being religions[or land[or people abouve god]..recall the torah command..[put NOTHING before god]..not son,not religion,not NUTHIN

stop the name calling..[WHO IS NOT A CHILD OF GOD?../..who does NOT live but that god said be?]..

one father of ALL life..
i accept the teachings of all of gods many messengers
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 29 April 2009 12:04:35 PM
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Sancho,
Are you still upset that I ignored your absurd slippery slope analogies?
Or is it just because I'm well read?
If I were a Christian I certainly wouldn't "deny Christ" just to appease you and maintain an anonymous pseudo-secular, pseudo-atheist/pseudo-agnostic persona on this forum.
Jesus might log on, read it and I would be condemned for eternity!
I don't agree that one should "be taken less seriously if (they) admit (their) religion".
Surely someone's arguments should be judged on their merits and not on their religion.
Clearly, on both these bases you have judged me and found me wanting.
Oops, there I go slipping into the religious jargon again.
On a point of clarification, I am not "fiercely anti-abortion" or "stridently anti-gay" per se.
I simply prioritise the rights of children, born and unborn, over conflicting "rights".
In my opinion this stance is not inherently opposed to a "secular, atheist/agnostic" outlook.

PS
Are you sure it was red herrings that Jesus fed the flock of 5000?
I thought the type of fish was unstated in the Bible.
I'll have to read it again.
Posted by KMB, Wednesday, 29 April 2009 9:58:48 PM
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It matters not what Adams, Jefferson, Churchill or Obama say about Islam and muslims because their actions still show what they really feel about Islam and muslims.

Obama is just a poster child for the real rulers of every country.
The real hidden rulers don't care about God or any religion whether it be Christian, Muslim or Jewish. But what they do care about is controlling the people and they are doing a great job of that.

Unfortunately they despise Islam more than other religions because Islam believes in no religious hierarchy, zero interest, the patriarchy system and harsh laws for harsh crimes.
Posted by JAD, Thursday, 30 April 2009 9:45:21 AM
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