Today I went to the local service station to swap my 9Kg BBQ gas bottle, and left in a state of mild shock after handing over $35. It doesn't seem like that long ago that I used to refill my bottle for around 1/2 that price, but to do that now I must travel past 3 suburbs. Pity I left it a bit late.

I could not help but notice LPG was selling at the bowser for around $0.53 that day, making 9Kg worth about $9.16. Same product, same location, same time, put into a similarly shaped container I supplied. $9.16 versus $35. Now that boys and girls, is how you make a profit.

rstuart, you are very right.

It is called 'convenience' and it is evrywhere we look today.

A baker buys a kilo of mince for about $5.00, then makes 28 to 30 pies at about $3.80 each.

You can also buy a kilo of potatoes for about $3.00, or you can buy pre-prepares roasting potatoes at about 10 times the price.

But do you know what realy urkes me. Often your bottle is not completely empty yet you get charges for a full 9 kilos. Even if you have it filled.

Why is this not looked at by the accc or weights and measures. They fine me if I forget to tare of a 10 gram meat tray.

rstuart,

Could this apparent profiteering be a form of 'corporal punishment', perhaps?

See this post: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2645#59586

It reveals the Chevron Corporation to be the largest holder of Australia's natural gas resources, as well as being THE WORLD'S LARGEST PRODUCER OF GEOTHERMAL ENERGY.

It seems in the push to 'privatise' the generation and distribution of electricity in Australia, and in the touted encouragement of a move to sustainable energy, nobody sees 'Big Oil' coming, or dominating public policy.

It seems that by virtue of your recent purchase you may now be 'full bottle' as to knowledge of how Australians will soon come to fare under the terms of the various government sell-outs.

It's even worse that that, rehctub. I have 3 9kg bottles which emptied completely and weighed before filling. None of them contained even cose to 9kg of gas, with the heaviest containing only 8.2kg and the lightest just 7.9kg. It wasn't the vendor's fault, as I know they were filled to capacity, but the actual volume of the containers was inadequate top hold the rated weight.

I presume it has something to do with the temperature and hence density of the gas at the time of dispensing. If the cylinder is rated at Standard temperature and pressure and the dispensing container is sitting in the sun at (say) 35C, the density of the gas will be significntly reduced.

I guess that weights and measures have never received a complaint, or they've put it in the too-hard basket.

It takes about 10 minutes for an attendant to fill a bottle.The real price should be around $20.00.You will find some big hardware stores doing it for around $25.00.Yep it's a rip off considering we sell it to China for a few cents a litre.We need more competition in the energy sector but no Govt has the guts to take the big boys on.

look be gratefull your fiat money buys ANYTHING..soon we get hyper inflation,because the banking cartel is issueing ever more debt,so you want proof?

extracted from
http://www.infowars.com/the-tower-of-basel-secretive-plans-for-the-issuing-of-a-global-currency/

The apex of the system was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel,..Switzerland,..a private bank owned and controlled by the world’s central banks which were themselves private corporations.”

The key to their success,said Quigley,was that the international bankers would control and manipulate the money system's via fed reserves while letting it appear to be controlled by the government.

The statement echoed an often-quoted one made by the German patriarch of what would become the most powerful banking dynasty in the world...Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild famously said in 1791:

“Allow me to issue and control a nation’s currency, and I care not who makes its laws.”

Mayer’s five sons were sent to the major capitals of Europe..London, Paris,Vienna,Berlin and Naples..–with the mission of establishing a banking system that would be outside government control.

The economic and political systems of nations would be controlled not by citizens but by bankers,..for the benefit of bankers.

Eventually,a privately-owned“central bank”was established in nearly every country;..and this central banking system has now gained control over the economies of the world...Central banks have the authority to print money in their respective countries,and it is from these banks that governments must borrow money to pay their debts and fund their operations.

The result is a global economy in which not only industry but government itself runs on“credit”(or debt)created by a banking monopoly headed by a network of private central banks;.and at the top of this network is the BIS,the“central bank of central banks”..fed of feds..Behind the Curtain

For many years the BIS kept a very low profile,operating behind the scenes in an abandoned hotel.It was here that decisions were reached to devalue or defend currencies,fix the price of gold,regulate offshore banking,and raise or lower short-term interest rates.

In 1977,however,the BIS gave up its anonymity..

..continued at link

spend while it still gets you real goods..lol..soon it wil be worth nothing

Antiseptic<<..I know they were filled to capacity,but the actual volume..<<NO PRESURE>>..of the containers was inadequate to hold the rated weight.>>..[presure]..more presure in..means more'weight'

<<I presume it has something to do with the temperature and hence density of the gas at the time of dispensing.>>..ok thats close but the fact is its all about presure..[low presure..[less volume]weight

see that presure you get from a tank..[the tank gets it from a tanker[but the tanker leaves the depo with full presure,..but it gradually gets less..[because it pasivly fills,ONLY by the presure left in the tank!

when the tanker only refills the tank to a low presure..[the tank itself can only refill your tank TO THAT PRESURE''..'EACH TANK HOLDS LESS as the presure falls...lol

<<the density of the gas will be significntly reduced.>>egsactly,the gas ISNT pumped in[unlike fiat currency]..its all passive presure, less presure means you get less gas..[WE ARE BEING RIPPED OFF constantly,because every refill gives less presure thus less gas...lol,..yet with more cash pumped into the ecopnomy it buys less..lol

<<I guess that weights and measures have never received a complaint, or they've put it in the too-hard basket.>>no they know..[but they also know we dont know...lol

just like we dont know about the fed being for private proffit,..so many known unknowns ..lol

gotta love the system that exploits us unknowingly

those who get the gas #[or the cash, at max presure,get full value]..at the max prenium time may get a full tank

[but how to know the tank presure?[or how to audit the fed,..thats too difficult]

we are the cash cow...just work and pay in fiat printed at whim

dont worry about inflation
just be happy there is 'gas' to inflate...lol

rehctub: "It is called 'convenience' and it is evrywhere we look today."

Maybe rehctub, but I don't find it much more convenient. I expect it is real convenient for the service station as they don't have to make staff available to fill the container, but not for me.

You could solve the problem in one swoop by putting the same connector the cars use on the gas bottle. Anti's point about partial fills is fixed, your problem with 1/2 filled bottles is fixed, the LPG bowser is metered and policed by weights and measures, the staff problem is fixed and my problem with price is fixed. But I expect if you did that, someone would then say it is unsafe because checks on the condition of the bottle aren't enforced. Mind you, no one checks the condition of the bottles in the cars.

You may be right there is some price to pay for convenience. If so it is a dammed high price - $26 to put $9 of product into a bottle. If it does really cost that amount to put LPG into a bottle we need a new system. Personally, I think the total lack of competition SWAPnGO has at the moment is the real problem.

oug, it's "liquid" petroleum gas. It's sold as the liquid, not as the gas, so the pressure of the evaporated gas is not the crtical factor determining the mass: it's the temperature of the liquid which affects the density.

The pressure of the gas phase will certainly be affected by the temperature in a relationship described by Boyle's Law, (PV=nRT) as will be the amount of gas evaporated, but as long as there is liquid present, it is likely to be a much greater contributor to total mass.

To use actual numbers:
LPG has a density of around 550kg/cu.m in its liquid phase and only around 1.7kg/cu.m in its gas phase.

That means a 9kg bottle must have a volume of about 9/0.55 litres or a bit over 16 litres. Even if there is only 1 litre of liquid and the rest gas, the liquid weighs 0.55kg and the gas only 25g. When the bottle is full, the gas phase mass is practically negligible.

This system was supposedly introduced for safety reasons.
With the proliferation of casual, young, unskilled and poorly paid service station workers there were increasing numbers of accidents in the old manual filling system which was quite dangerous. There were also issues around people filling unsafe and corroded tanks.

While I agree the current system seems to be a swindle I cant really think of any alternative. Can anyone else?

Did any of you complain to the place of purchase or filling company?
What did they say?

*Today I went to the local service station to swap my 9Kg BBQ gas bottle*

Ah that was on a Sunday. So for the bloke who works there to
turn up and stand around picking his nose, he'd be on double time
at least. Then workers comp added to that. Then payroll tax added
to that. Then holiday pay added to that. Then holiday leave loading
added to that. Then superannuation added to that. Then long service
leave added to that. Then his entitlements in case he needs to
be fired, as the business is losing money, so you the consumer
should wear that as well.

So how much profit was left?

Yabby: "So how much profit was left?"

A fair bit I'd say. His contribution was to take my cash and hand me a key. It was all over in 30 seconds.

Ah rstuart, but you also have to pay for is double time plus costs
for when he is not attending to you, waiting for his next customer.

If you want that kind of convience on a Sunday and the Govt mandates
all those conditions, well the consumer should pay, fair enough.

Yabby, are we bored and looking for someone to annoy? Or maybe you missed your cup of coffee and aren't firing on all neurons.

1. This isn't petrol. I haven't checked, but I doubt they change the price during the weekend, any more then they change the price of their ice cream.

2. Lets pay the attendant $100/hour. I sure you'll agree this is a more than reasonable wage even making allowance for all the add ons. Then that 30 seconds cost them $0.83. We are trying to account for a $26 difference here.

3. You seem to forget I was comparing the price of LPG in the 9Kg bottle versus delivery of the same product sold at the same store at the same time, albeit in a slightly different format and thus subject to all those same convenience costs you seem so keen on. Yet the price was over 300% more.

4. Since we are on the subject of business costs. Capital cost to sell bottled gas: a cage and a padlock. Capital cost to sell vehicle LPG: Large LPG storage tank with emergency sprinkler system, pumps, bowers, electronic link ups to the cash register, covered park for the car while filling. And which one attracted the 300% premium?

Three things:
last I looked, service station attendants were not paid double time on Sundays - they have an EBA in which they cleverly bartered away all their benefits in exchange for a tiny increase in normal hourly rate; secondly, I haven't noticed too many service stations doing it real tough lately, despite the frequent bleatings of the few small players not to have sold out to the chains; I can buy the same gas fill at my local camping supply store for $23 - on a Sunday. The attendant has to check my bottle, clean the thread if it's not up to scratch, then fill it. It takes long enough that i usually leave to do oher shopping. If they can do it at 2/3 the price, in a "boutique" operation, why ar you defending the profiteering of the service-stations, Yabby?

Well it appears there is no easy fix.

The suggestion of retrofitting the bottles for use at the pump seems ok, however, to fill a gass bottle one must allow a certain amount of gas to escape so the bottle is 'full' as a bottle is not 'full' until you gat a continuous stream of gas escaping. Typiclly, this may take 10 to 15 seconds after gas starts to spill.

Now not anly would this be dangerous, as there are those fools who instist on smoking at the fuel station, but it is also the most likely cause of 'under filling'

Now because many bottles are not completely empty when either exchanged or re-filled, this is another area that the refillers are cleaning up on. They charge for 9 litres but may only supply as little as 7 lts at times.

I think I will make a complaint and keep you all posted.

Antispectic, the way I understand it, the bottle exchange system
is a completely different system, to the one where they fill your
own bottle, often in a small, privately run business, with lower
costs, even the owner doing the work.

Here we have a gas bottle exchange, run by Origin energy. The place
which makes space available for the locked cage, bottles etc, just
makes a margin for their effort and providing the space. Origin
finance the bottles, their replacement over time, they send out
a truck with a bloke to refill the cages, all lots of time and
hand labour involved. That costs money today!

With service stations, it is well known that they make bugger all
on fuel, that is often the loss leader. Their profits come from
their convenience stores, where they have high margins. People
pay for the convenience.

I have no idea of the latest labour conditions in service stations,
but in many other industries, like food service, fruit picking
and even shearing, the Govt is trying to enforce double time
on weekends, etc. No doubt service stations will be on the list
too, as they work through the industries.

So my point is quite simple. If that is what you people want,
then dont' be amazed if business passes on these costs and you
pay for it as consumers.

Go to a restaurant on the weekend, they will slug you extra. Fair
enough.

Yabby:"The place
which makes space available for the locked cage, bottles etc, just
makes a margin for their effort and providing the space"

You're dead right and given the cost of a single bottle refill at the local camping place is about $23, I'd reckon that the margin the servos charge is about 50%.

The cost to origin of transport, etc is minimal, as they require only one or two trucks to service a vast area and their cost of refilling, given they must have a dedicated facility, should be considerably lower than my local shop, as should be the cost of their gas, since the local shop buys from them and sell it to me at retail for that $23.

About the only real additional on=going cost is the replacement/maintenance of the cylinders, which given an average life of (say) 5 years, probably nearer 10, works out at about $8 per year (at reatail cost for the cylinder, they pay jalf that at wholesale).

All-in-all, it's a rip-off from Origin and Boral. The servos love it because it's made gas a shop item with a fixed margin, and the dumb customers who use the product get screwed.

I'm in business myself, Yabby and I like to make a profit, but I can't stand profiteering.

I'd reckon that the margin the servos charge is about 50%.

Antiseptic, if you're in business you will understand that a 50% margin is not unreasonable, esspecially considering the amount of items they sell either at a loss, or with very low margins.

Papers is one, about 5 cents on a $2 sale. Someone has to unwrap the papers and put them on the shelf then scan them when sold, then collect the returns, bundle them up, record them and so on. Meanwhile the papers are taking up valuable merchandising space.

I agree with yabby, if people want the extra wages and conditions then they will have to pay, or pay the untimate price which is closure of many small businesses.

Now just back to your gas bottle.
Someone drove from the debot and collected the empty bottle.
Then they reurned it to the depot.
Someone unloaded it into storage.
Then it was taken to the filling area.
Then it was filled.
Then it was placed on a pallet and stored.
It was then forked on to the truck.
The driver then delivered it.
They first had unlock the cage and clear it of empty ones.
They then put the bottle in the cage and re-locked it.
The attenent had to hand over the key and make the transaction.
It all costs money. Wait till the new laws come in.

My beef is not the cost of the convenience, but moreso the fact that they are getting free gas when a bottle is returned with some contents remaining. We should get a credit for this but if someone had to weigh the bottle upon return then this adds to the costs.

Manwhile I get fined for not allowing for 10 grams of plastic on a 5 kilo sale.

rehctub, I may not have made myself clear: I don't blame the servos for making a 50% profit (although i suspect it's nearer to 100$, given $23 is a retail price), but I do blame the wholesalers for making a much larger profit than is justified by the service. The unit cost of transport is not great, nor is the amortised cost of the cylinders, nor is the filling process as time-intensive as it is for a single fill, since the person running the filling operation would no doubt have several cylinders on the go at once and possibly even have automation to assist.

As I said, if the boutique operation can retail at $23 and the charge for swapping is $35, then someone is profiteering.

The servos are pretty good at it too, especially in their "shop" items. I make a policy of never purchasing anything other than fuel at service stations for that reason. I'd rather go without than support profiteering.

Antiseptic, I've hed a few shares in companies like Origin and
Boral for years now. If they were profiteering, it would be
reflected in profits, which would show in the balance sheet.

AS you might know, Origin and Boral split some years ago, we
shareholders got half of each. Boral are around where they
were 13 or so years ago, the first time that Origin have made
any real money is since they discovered CSG and sold a large
share of that to an overseas buyer, before Britsh Gas could
buy them.

What sinks all these large companies is enormous costs at every turn.
Most of them land up being lucky to land up with 5% of turnover as
actual profit.

We have one of those Origin cages in town, I'll go and ask what
they charge and compare it to the guy down the road who fills up
empties.

It is probably time to fess up and admit I don't really believe the high price is caused by anyone making huge profits. Not because of any of the arguments raised here, but simply because there are several companies doing this swap thing, and I have faith in competition keeping prices sane. The real issue is we have allowed a hopelessly inefficient way of putting LPG into a bottle to prosper. It is like a cancer in our economy. Our capitalist system is supposed to root out such cancers, so it bizarre to see it grow and prosper instead.

As for how to fix it - well there is one solution I hate and would oppose. That is any notion the government should somehow try to regulate the prices, like for example threatening to investigate price gouging. There is only one circumstance where such intervention is justifiable - where there is a monopoly in operation.

Fixing it will probably require a combination of things. Someone needs to come up with a way filling LPG bottles from LPG bowsers. The government has to change the regulations to allow it. Normally I would also say the government must distort the market for a short while to get the conversion process kick started, but in this case the $9 vs $35 prices difference should be more than enough incentive. It sounds like a wonderful business opportunity to me - for someone with the energy and perseverance to see it through.

rehctub, the problem getting rid of the gas in the bottle has already been solved for car LPG bowsers. I don't know what the solution is, but whatever it is works and is cheap to implement.

I think the problem is parity pricing.

Our government has agreed to the companies harvesting oil, & gas, in Oz, setting their prices in relation to the Singapore price of petroleum. Have you noticed how the price of LPG stays at a similar ratio to the price pf petrol?

I suppose we had to agree to this rip off, in order to get the oil companies to do the exploration, in the first place.

The price climb was dramatic.

20 years ago I had a gas stove & a gas HWS. I had a large tank, installed out side. A tanker came once every 2 months & filled the tank, charging for the gas supplied.

It averaged $11.50 a fill, or $6.25 a month. 5 years later it was costing $26 per fill, or $13 per month.

About 15 years ago, they advised us that the tanker service was being discontinued. The supplier replaced our large tank, with 2 x 80Lb bottles. When one emptied, we switched to the other, & ordered a replacement full bottle. A bottle lasted a couple of months.

At $27.50 a bottle, the price was similar, although harder to keep track of, as the time to replacement varied considerably

About 4 years ago, I noticed the bottle was lasting only 5 weeks, [a 30% reduction, although the system was serviced, & less people were using it. Has there been a change in the gas supplied, making it less effective?

By now the cost of the bottle was costing over $100 exchange, or $80 per month.

I now have an electeric stove, & hot water system.

I am still being ripped off, but a little less so. However, if Ruddy gets his way, the rip off is about to rise, dramatically.

Hasbeen, twenty years ago I put in a solar hot water system. Its
been great for 20 years, free hot water for most of the year.

I checked our local prices for 9 kg gas bottles, in country WA.

The machinery dealership has an Origin swop system and charges
29.50$.

The hardware place has a swop system too, they charge 32.50. If
you want them to fill your own bottle, they charge 38.50, to allow
for their extra labour cost and mucking around. So there you go!

Sounds like your camping store is giving you a bargain, Antiseptic.

I don't think it's especially a bargain, Yabby. Other similar places charge the same. In the past month I've seen it advertised as low as $21.50.I'm in Brisbane, though, not outback WA and perhaps it's a case of "fills ain't fills".

rehctub, I may not have made myself clear: I don't blame the servos for making a 50% profit (although i suspect it's nearer to 100

Anticeptic, many people confuse mark up with profit. I'm afraid it is impossible to make a 100% profit on anything.

If a car gas tank can be filled safely then there seems to be no reason why a bottle can't be retrofitted.

I think this is the answer to all problems except it may lead to job losses at the local hardware store.

I am in brisbane and I think I pay about $29.50 for a swap and go, althgough it goes on my fuel account so I don't bother to check.