*Philo* you spout belief as if it were proven fact. That to me is the dangerous character trait with people like you.

You don't seem to be able to accept that as an imperfect mortal like the rest of us, your belief system and God concept may be flawed, and perhaps out of desperation because you have no experience of the spiritual yourself, you seek to gain it by inflicting your belief on others.

To me if there is a God, it most certainly doesn't need defending. I'm sure El Goddo is quite capable of doing that itSelf. No, when I hear the likes of *OuG* sqealing it is in desperation to defend his own Ego and nothing to do with El Goddo at all i.m.o.

Oh, did everyone see the news of the elderly priest and his wife being butchered in Sulawesi? I wouldn't be surprised if the "killer" justified his action in defence of his God concept.

*David*

A memory welled up this morning. From primary school. We spent a lot of time drawing war pictures, and then eventually nazi swastikas. Some of us even took to carving these symbols on the local trees, in the parks and the gardens. As kids we were clueless of course, and this about 30 years ago. No teacher of the time corrected our behaviour.

..

I've met a few Indos here who proudly sport the swastika on their clothes and affects. The ones I've spoken to though have some awareness of the relevant history though.

:-(

Philo wrote: Jesus was not merely addressing himself as a human who sought worship of himself when encouraging the children who sought him - but as one who had the truth about the kingdom of God; which is spiritual not flesh.

Dear Philo,

The above is an expression of Greek dualism that has influenced Christianity. My belief is that the kingdom of God if there is such a thing is here on earth. Plato propounded the concept of ideal forms of which their copies on earth are imperfect. The neo-Platonists grafted this on to Christianity.

Earlier in the Bible there is not the separation into the sacred and profane. Genesis 1:31 “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.” Note that. The earth is the kingdom of God, and it is very good. The separation in a kingdom of God which is not flesh is merely an expression of neo-Platonic ideas in Christianity. It was a step backward from Judaism which holds that the good things on the earth such as food, drink and sex are for humans to enjoy in reasonable proportions.

Christianity and Buddhism both share the idea of a spirit world which is somewhat more holy than the world of the flesh. This has resulted in both religions in such concepts as the monastic life in which individuals reject the good things of the earth in the belief that somehow they are more holy by virtue of that behaviour.

As I mentioned in my post presenting Jesus as a sexless figure furthers this idea. With Paul the idea that sexual desire is somehow evil was carried on. Judaism regards rejection of the joys of the flesh as rejection of God who has put the good things of the flesh on earth for humans to enjoy.

Although there are questionable ideas in Judaism I think they have got it right in the way they regard the world as the kingdom of God.

Dear DreamOn,

The swastika is a symbol of worship for many people. It generally represents the sun.

phylo<<I wonder if*OneUnder God*like*BoazY*claims to have had a direct"alien encounter"with the Divine?>>you are a sad man my brother,you think all religins are full of mindless fools,that the only reason people could chose to believe is by same mental derangement

but i will confirm my share of amasing experiences[and you too have had them but throw them away as coincidences,or just nature,..but the mundane is quite amasing when you realise a greatness beyond your own ego

you feel the alian encounter to be devine[i call alian encounter insanity,the nearest'alian',lives 2000 years[at the speed of light away from here]if they egsist at all,i think we can be quite definit that no alians reside in our solar system,thus if any they are a whole universe away[to seriously consider alians reveals your plain nuts]

<<PrayTell friend-can you offer us something special or are your rants really just a matter of ideaology and faith mixed together?>>i know god is real..simply by virtue i didnt give life to me,and science has not and cannot make dead/matter live..[as for proving it thats not a thing i care to share,

as for him being human,thats right up there with alians]..simply god is the force sustaining life[no more no less]all life,..every life[even the lives of those who reject him]

you thrive on your unbelief..[and i couldnt care less],by saying god is equally in you as well as in me,i am able to love you as i love myself,..such self delusions[as you would call]them are revealed[is revealed in parrabels]..found in religious texts,..say all the workmen getting equal wages...

but its seek and find..[your not seeking thus havnt found even proofs sitting right in front of you]...how can this not affect me..[easy i tried..you ignored]

so as you see it you win...lol
as i see it i tried,..thats all im obligated to do

<<I hear the likes of*OuG*sqealing it is in desperation to defend his own Ego and nothing to do with El-Goddo at all>>mate let the readers judge who speaks of ego..[you ignorantly insult a thing you deney..[how stupid are you]..i at least tell you what i believe...lol

Philo wrote: Jesus represented God by his character. Give total devotion to the development and admiration of these ideals of personal character more than following the spirit and character of any of your closest loved ones. By comparison love of mother or father is a lesser admiration than the admiration of the spirit of the highest ideals - God.

Dear Philo,

The above is another bit of Christian nonsense taken from paganism. Jesus is no more God than Zeus, Mithra, Odin or all the other humanoid gods in pagan religiosity. There is no more God in any human being than there is in any other human being .

Love of our fellow human beings and our family is a greater good and a higher morality than the love of any abstraction set up for us by theologians.

God is not the spirit of the highest ideals. I think the following secular humanist ideals are preferable.

Secular humanism:

1. Rejects ideas of a creator god, believed by some to control human life and answer prayers.
2. Holds that a person has only one life, since the evidence for personal existence before conception or after death is totally unconvincing.
3. Considers that morality comes from the conscience and values of the community rather than any divine source.
4. Considers that science provides a more authentic understanding about the origin and nature of the universe than that found in ancient scriptures.
5. Re-examines knowledge and ideas continually, to achieve ways of improving the living conditions of humanity and the world environment.
6. Tries to maintain an open mind, recognising that human knowledge is never the final answer, and are prepared to live with uncertainty and accept that we may be wrong.

*DavidF*

Yes, there are the Balinese Hindu versions of the swastika all over the place. I most often see them as golden danglies hanging from the rear vision mirror in peoples cars.

The "other" version I have only seen rarely, but it is usually set in black and red on a "heavy metal" like t-shirt with hell pictures of skeletons etc and a twist .. a lot of people here like guitar and metal though.

So, on one occasion I bailed this character up with two nazi swastikas on his shoulders and had a yarn. It went a bit like this, in language other than this one.

ME: Hey! A person from where are you?
HIM: I'm from <location>
ME: <Expression in dialect>
HIM: Hey, how do you know that?
ME: I have a house with my Islamic wife over there.
HIM: Ohhhh!

ME: That's a cool t-shirt.
HIM: Beams with pride.
ME: But, do you know what that symbol is?
HIM: Yes.
ME: They executed some 6,000,000+ Yahoodees you know? Doesn't that bother you?
HIM: No, not at all, I like it.

..

My friend *Pepper Sauce* who holds "prayer groups" in the quiet places outside the mosques confirm that the prevailing opinion, in his view, is that Jewish residents in the middle east are despised by the local Islamic population in East Java.

This is perhaps not news to you? My Jewish GP expressed concerns to me regarding Indonesia.

*OuG*

One of the reasons that I come to this place is that there are some fine minds here. I try to learn form them.

In your case, to me, you continue to presume to know that which you cannot. For example, you presume to know that I have no belief in the Divine. You do not "know" this. You may believe something, but that doesn't make it so.

" ... i know god is real..simply by virtue i didnt give life to me,and science has not and cannot make dead/matter live..[as for proving it thats not a thing i care to share, ... "

Well, re physical life being the rationale, if that is the only way that you "know" then you ought know that most people would consider that what you mean by "know" other people consider to be a belief, as defined by accepted meanings of these words.

Thereafter, the brain is very powerful, a magnificent structure all the way down to its most primal evolutionary form. It is capable as you may be aware of generating perceptions which only exist in the mind of the individual having the experience. You are perhaps familiar with the term "hallucination?" Fasting can induce the experience, as can substance and also certain pathological states, to name but a few.

Simply, people who experience hallucinations often see what they "want" to see. That is to say, the deep seated subconcious desires of an individual often become the subject matter of the hallucination, say visual, which the individual perceives as if it were a "real" external phenomena (and it does have a reality within the brain itself) but in actuality it is like a movie from the subjects own brain matter playing internally and being interpreted in that part of the brain, assumably, which normally processes sight from the external world.

Some people even enjoy inducing this kind of experience, but to have insight is to know it for what it is.

So, a Christian first experiencing a hallucination is likely to have a Christian revolation, etc etc.