Not being religious at all, I can never understand why women want to be part of the catholic church. Why try and change a male dominated, archaic institution. The same with gays wanting acceptance by the church.

I think if churches were true to their beliefs they wouldn't be flexible. Isn't that part of a religion that the rules are set and aren't to be broken. Where does it stop? Women and gay priests, divorce, de-facto couples, open marriages, contraception, masturbation, Mass in English, there'll be nothing left of the original rules if they keep going. That to me leaves them with no credibility at all when they keep watering down the rules.

That's the church's rules and if you don't like them why not make your own church. By definition if you don't agree with the rules you aren't a true catholic. If enough people no longer like the rules the church can die out by natural attrition.

Isn't that how the Church of England started?

Dear Houellebecq,

The origins of the Catholic Church were that of
being a 'Community,' of people caring about
each other, of inclusion, not exclusion.
And that is something that has been forgotten
over the years. It's something that Father
Kennedy in Brisbane practices - and why his
Church manages to attract over 800 people every
Sunday. The Church according to Christ's
teachings should not be about 'power,' and
'control.' It should not be about
protecting hierarchy. It should not be about
'sacra potestas: holy power.'
But about love, justice, compassion,
and decency. The Second Vatican Council taught
that "we can now choose to identify conscience
with our personal opinions and disagree with
Church teaching especially on matters of sexuality
and life..."

As Dr Paul Collins points out in his book, "Believers,"
"Personally, I am optimistic that Catholicism in Australia
will survive, certainly with lesser members, but with more
commitment and ministerial energy. But to achieve that
Catholics will require genuine local leadership and a
willingness to confront both the difficulties and
opportunities that the Church faces."

Very interesting Foxy. As I said, I'm non religious, but I like to hear people's passionate opinions on religion. Actually any opinion with passion is good. Spice even better:-)

'"we can now choose to identify conscience
with our personal opinions and disagree with
Church teaching especially on matters of sexuality
and life..."'

Sounds like a free for all to me:-) I suppose I see organised religion as being for people who want hard and fast rules to complex problems. You're not going to appeal to these kinds of people with such statements. I'm sure runner for example would HATE that:-) And BOAZ would say make it up as you go or something like that.

Otherwise why not just read the bible and interpret it your own way as the above statement? Why bother with a church at all?

Dear Houellebecq,

Why bother with a Church at all?

Because it is my Church.

And, as I've said previously...
I'll follow my conscience.
I'll demand meaning and relevance from
my Church.
And, I won't allow my Church to behave dishonestly,
which is what it does when it hides the sexual abuse
of children by its priests, which is the topic of
this thread.

H

With enough people like Foxy, Father Kennedy and Father Bob Maguire, a healthy inclusive and truly holistic church will not only endure but evolve. While I do not believe in any great patriarch in the sky, I do understand the comfort that religion has to offer people and the absolute good that congregations that Father Kennedy and Father Bob inspire for our community.

I don't have to be a believer to see the good that is achieved by religion, nor do I have to believe to criticise where religion gets it very wrong as in covering up for their paedophile priests or treating women as second class citizens.

Dear Fractelle,

Thanks for your kind and insightful words.

To me - you represent - the good - that we
should all strive for. I remember ages ago
your explaining (on another thread) about
your beliefs - the universe - and the
awesomeness of it all. It was beautiful to read -
and totally inspiring.

You are an inspiration - and although I appreciate
your kind comments - they're more applicable to
yourself - than me.