I found it very difficult watching the
ABC's programme on 'Compass' last night
entitled 'The Hand of God.' It examined
the impact of sexual abuse and focused
on one man's experiences dealing with
what he had suffered 30 years ago as a
young altar boy. He came from a very
religious Italian family.

I would like to hear from other posters
how they view this subject. Especially,
what they think the Catholic Church
should do - and how can cases like this
one be stopped - once and for all?

Denial, this is happening - is not the
answer - and neither is ignoring the problem,
or moving these priests to other parishes where
they re-offend .

What is the answer?

Foxy

Repeat sexual offenders should be castrated for the sake of society. Whether it is a Priest, artist, politician, scientist, piano or teacher it should make no difference. It is abhorrent to think that a Priest can remain a Priest after committing such an atrocity. I doubt very much if he is still a Priest in God's eyes.

I think judges in this part of the world are half the problem. Only 2 weeks ago a man pleaded guilty to raping a 4 year old girl. He was not jailed because he was indigenous. It seems that if you are of a certain race, religion or profession you get off lightly for such ghastly crimes. The lawyers and judges really have a lot to answer for. In saying that I find it strange that it seems that only churches seem to pay compensation to victims unlike artists, football clubs, politicians etc.

Dear runner,

You should have seen the Compass programme last night.
It shook me to the core. The truly traumatic part was
that the Catholic Church knew about this particular
priest, yet did nothing - in fact, the priest was moved
on to other parishes and continued to molest young boys
right up until hid death.

And, even after his death, the Church refused to admit
or explain what had happened - they refused to admit
any culpability = but they did pay out $60,000 to that
particular Italian man - however, they were vindictive -
the Church closed - the Italian Parish Church to which
his parents and the Italian Community belonged.

As a Catholic - I felt so ashamed.

Foxy

I did not see the program but it does not surprise me. An organisation that has murdered so many believers and non believers in the past is capable of anything. I was brought up a Catholic (my family still are). I hate catholic bashing for that reason. There are many good people caught up in what I consider an abhorrent system.

Gross sin such as child sexual abuse has been covered up not only by the Catholic church but by judges, doctors, protestants, atheist, indigenous elders,environmentalist, agnostics etc etc. I doubt whether the abuse rate is any higher with the Catholics than anywhere else. Unfortunately our national broadcasters like to bash the Catholics where and whenever they can.

When did this atrocity take place? I ask because in our own indigenous communities child sexual abuse is still rampant to this day. Why aren't our national broadcasters trying to rescue kids today from this? Everyone is aware of the Catholic and other churches abuses in the 70's and 80's. Would not it make more sense to tackle today's issue?

I personally left and renounced the Catholic church a long time ago because many of their practices contradict Scripture. I do however believe the pro liberal press including compass is really right out of balance. If you need to go back decades to throw dirt you could do that with a great many religous and non religous organisations.

Foxy,

I did not see the programme. Just the same, it has been my long held belief that those, who protect these priests, should regarded as criminals too. Why? Because they are criminals.

Foxy I was not born catholic, but think they are the worst for this dreadful crime.
Not however the only church guilty of this crime the church of England , the church I was born into is bad too.
Question to posters
Can any one who serves God, has these children in their care do such things and still claim to believe in that God?

Dear runner,

You've raised some valid points. Especially about
protecting the kids in this country.
But this programme wasn't about 'Catholic Bashing.'
It was actually a film made by the victim's
brother on his brother's traumatic experiences with
this one particular priest - when his brother was an
altar boy in Massachusetts (US). The man today is
52 years old - it's taken him 30 years to be able to
talk about what he's gone through. It was so moving.
This man was so calm - and blamed himself for so many
years - never the priest or the Church. That's what made
it all so poignant.

If you're interested go into the ABC's Compass programme
and click onto, 'The Hand of God,' site.
You'll be so taken aback by the way the Church responded
to this man and his family's suffering.

Dear Oliver and Belly,

Yes, these priests are criminals - and the fact that the
Church tries to hide their actions - to me is monstrous.
They are priests - in a position of power and trust -
once they break that trust - they've broken their vows,
and should be excommunicated. Not promoted and given
another Parish - with more children to abuse.

I can't help but wonder - how many priests has Cardinal Pell
moved from Parish to Parish? I want to hope that it's -
none knowingly - but I suspect sadly, that's not the case.

I so want to believe that there are decent priests out there -
(like Father Kennedy in St Mary's - Brisbane - who attracts
over 800 people every Sunday - yet they're getting rid of
him).

It's all so depressing!

It is a sad endictment of the Catholic Church that these sorts of incidents are followed by the inevitable cover-ups. And the constant transferring of priests to other parishes which only shared the horror around.

Foxy I don't know why this was allowed to happen - why do people do evil things?

I have to agree with runner that it is absurd a priest is allowed to continue in that role after allegations have been made, sometimes more than one.

Now that these sorts of behaviours have come more and more into public light it may pressure the Church or indeed any organisation to be more vigilant and act on behalf of the victim in the future.

Not much consolation to the victims of past sexual abuse but maybe some hope for the future.

Dear Pelly,

I'm hoping that this thread will do some good.

I would love to see the Church hierarchy do
something constructive to ensure that children
are safe in Catholic parishes and schools.

Admitting culpability, talking to the victims
and their families - removing these priests
from positions of power within the parishes
and schools - would be a step in the right
direction.

We need to shine a spotlight on the Church -
and force them to look at what is really going
on inside their communities.

As you said it won't help the victims of the past
but it may prevent future disasters.

It's not a question of men doing 'evil things,'
its a question of the Church covering up these
evil acts and not putting a stop to them.

Foxy ,the Catholic Church has used guilt and embarrasment of human sexuality for centuries ,as a tool of control.Why was the immaculate conception of Jesus held up as the pinnacle of everything thing we humans should aspire towards?Satisfying human needs was painted as weakness.Something that should be shunned.They have reaped what they have sewn.
I remember the nuns telling us as 8yr olds not to have impure thoughts.We didn't have a clue what they were talking about.Yes there were many priests totally screwed up,but also there were some really good human beings.

To continue the lie of chasity for nuns or priests will continue the perversions which we witness today.The really unnerving development today is the unshameful lust of paedophiles who seemingly know no boundaries.

I'm beyond the clutches of religion today.It is just a sick,perverted cult obsessed with control.

Ajay,

The Incubi whom visited Medieval parishioners often took the form of the local priest. The Church's position being it was the devil in disguise. But Occam's razor would suggest the priest himself. Another Church cover-up?

In the current situation, secular laws do seem to let the Bishops and cover-up merchants off.

Foxy,

I am certain there are very decent priests. Yet, those priests are like honest cops, who are a aware of instances of Police corruption, yet do and say nothing. Guess not acting comes down to a fear of reprisals.

I'd like to refer to the book by Dr Paul Collins
called, "Believers: Does Australian Catholicism
Have a Future?" in which Dr Collins gives a quote
by former Sydney Auxiliary Bishop Geoffrey
Robinson who stated -
and I quote:

" I believe that the Catholic Church is in a
prison...It constructed the prison for itself,
locked itself in and threw away the key. That
prison is the prison of not being able to be
wrong..."

As Dr Collins points out "Robinson was speaking
within the context of sexual abuse... This
imprisonment in the past has been reinforced by
the doctrine of infallibility ...which also conveys
a sense that the church can never be wrong."

It is clear that sexual abuse has done immeasurable
harm both to the victims and to the reputation of
the Church. The cover-ups and the protection of
abusive clergy are unjustifiable.

The Church must in the future act more responsibly
to regain people's trust and restore its
reputation.

I agree with Dr Collins when he says, " Trust is
going to have to be built from the bottom up by
priests and bishops before their pronouncements on
morality will be taken seriously again..."

Part of the problem that also should be examined
is the sexual problems of the clergy and members of
religious orders. Raising the question of celibacy -
should also come into this. Why is it that pre-dominantly
its the Catholic clergy who are the ones guilty
of the crimes of sexual abuse? Is it because the
Anglican and other religions are allowed to marry?

Hi Foxy,

I didn't see the show either but I have some solutions

1. All church records should be immediately made accessible to the Police! No if's, no buts, No obstruction from lawyers!

2. All clergy and church members whose files have been hidden should be examined by the police with charges laid against the perpetrators, the people within the organisations that covered it up, and, any others associated in any way whatsoever, who knew of the cases and didn't report them.

We have laws for sex crimes, laws covering accessories before and after the fact and laws for interfering with an ongoing police investigation.

3. Investigate the lawyers of the Churches to see what they knew. If they are accessories charge them as well!

The fact that religions have hidden such horrific crimes means that they have been outside the law continuously and cannot be trusted whatsoever.

Finally the churches should have to reimburse the tax payer for all costs associated with these investigations and compensate and reimburse all individuals who have been harshly treated by the churches.

The only thing churches like more than God is money.

Hit them hard and make them totally liable.

What would Jesus expect of organisations allegedly associated with him, to do, if their members have committed such horrid crimes?

Jesus said Matthew 19:14 "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me....."

Well when many of them came to his organisations they sure "suffered".

Please read http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/

It is outrageous how the churches have acted on this heartbreaking subject.

And Remember "These are only the ones that the Police have found out about"

Dear Opinionated2,

Thank You so much for your input.
You're one of the first to offer advice on how
the sexual abuse should be dealt with.

Thank You also for the website that you gave.
It's excellent, and I highly recommend other
posters look it up. I had never heard of the
"Broken Rites," organisation.

Reading through
their site was a real eye-opener - especially
seeing Cardinal Pell's photograph with the
priest who was guilty of sexual abuse - Ridsdale.
Pell accompanying Ridsdale to court - on charges
of sexual abuse.

This is really upsetting - and I feel totally
disheartened. I'm beginning to see that the Church
really has a long way to go to recover the sense
that it reflects the integrity of God and the
gentleness of Christ.

Priests are supposed to mirror
hope, compassion, justice, decency, sympathy, openess,
and other traits that are Christian. People working
in Catholic institutions should treat others with the
kind of dignity, integrity and goodness with which
God treats them.

If the Church is to survive in this country - it must
clean out the sickness within. It must no longer hide
or excuse behaviour that is criminal - for that is
what sexual abuse is - a crime. The Church needs to
change - other wise it will wither and die.

There would be quite a few Labour State Pollies worried if Opinionated suggestions were carried out in NSW Parliament. Maybe a few homosexual judges also who liked boys would be squirming quite a bit.

Why runner did you post that?
You enter threads selling Christianity, defending it, but that was spiteful.
Yes ALP members have committed such dreadful acts, so too have people from all walks of life.
But while catholics do have a very big place in the ALP I see your post as biased unneeded and further proof Christianity is not for me.
Until we all of us find a way to stop these crimes against children we should hang our heads in shame.

Belly

'Why runner did you post that?'

Simply in the name of balance. I have no reason to defend the Catholic church but I am tired of the way they are singled out on a community problem. No one has ever produced statistics as to molesting priests being in higher proportions than molesting teachers or doctors or artist. What the Catholic church has done in cover up is no difference from other organisations such as boy scouts. It is despicable whether it is the Labour party or the Catholic church. I have made my views clear that I think all repeat offenders should be castrated.

I happen to agree that we all should hang our heads in shame. When a man can rape a 4 year old girl, plead guilty and still be walking free because of the colour of his skin we know we have a hopelessly inept justice system. The issue will never be addressed by catholic bashing.

The Church is based on tribalism much like corporatism.You don't rat on your friends even if your common humanity is compromised.It is all about the survival of the institution and the power of those at the apex.
Nearly all of our organisations echo our roots of tribalism.

Dear runner,

This thread happens to deal with the topic
of the impact of sexual abuse by the
priesthood. I started this thread as I
explained in my opening post - because of
the programme that I saw on the ABC's 'Compass,'
programme.

By the way -this is not about 'Catholic Bashing.'
It's about a particular priest who committed sexual abuse,
and the way that the Catholic Church dealt with this
problem.

It showed the hypocrisy of the actions of certain
religious leaders who proclaim Christian morality
strongly as ideal to strive for, and who insist that
certain rules be followed - yet they themselves
renege on all counts.

I should also add that perhaps you're confusing paedophilia
with homosexuality.

Paedophiles are the ones who prey on
young children, and they certainly do exist in all walks of
life. My thread however is about the ones in the priesthood.

As Dr Collins points out in his book "Believers,"
there are, and I quote:

"generations of gay priests
who have ministered to both sexes successfully in the Catholic
Church...a large number of straight priests have left the
active ministery over the last 30 years to marry...there is a
much higher proportion of gays in the present-day priesthood
than in the general population...Also a lot of gay priests have
been ordained over the last three decades...It is clear that
the accusation that gay priests are more likely to be child
molesters if totally wrong, and lay Catholics have no problem
with gay clergy whether they are "out" or, more likely,
quietly integrating their sexual preference..."

Foxy

Please don't be disheartened. Knowledge is power and knowledge on this subject empowers all "good Christians" like you to initiate change.

John 8:31-32"....and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

You are beginning to know the truth.

I posted this on another thread

I feel sorry for Catholics. Catholics are believers in a faith that should, bring out the best in all of it's followers.

If the clergy handled ugly issues in a Jesus-like manner, the ordinary Catholic would be less burdened.

Do Catholics receive the flack whilst other religious groups, that have taken similar wrong decisions, get to blend in with the crowd and are spared much of the criticism?

Do ALL religions have skeletons, and, if so aren't they letting down their alleged God?

The whole post also goes on to deal with how the confessional may play an unintended role in what has been happening in Catholicism.

See

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=8616&page=7

My post begins with "TY Otokonoko"

The simple fact of the matter is that we as a society should address these matters openly, with the criminals being uncovered and the criminals punished.

The Police have the expertise, the manpower and the resources to handle these matters very discreetly protecting the innocent and sparing the victims from more pain.

It is time, we, as a community, let the Police do what they do best, by demanding Governments force churches to give the Police full unrestricted access to all church records!

If it takes special legislation do it... we need these criminals jailed!

Dear Opinionated2,

I couldn't agree with you more.

It is time that Catholics themselves took a strong
stand on this issue - because sure as anything
the Church is not going to do it. The hierarchy
of the Church still seems to prefer the denial
and 'cover up method.' They still follow the
principles of expecting their followers to blindly
obey - and not question anything they do. We're all
supposed to 'toe the line and do as they tell us.'

This is becoming unacceptable. Certainly to the victims
and their families.

Of course, there are many decent priests, and many who
want changes made. But they are not the ones in power
with any kind of control.

You're absolutely right - the more we speak up -
change will come. It has to. The Church has survived for
so many decades - because it has adapted and changed.
It must continue to do so - especially on the issue of
sexual abuse in the priesthood. And as it won't do it on its
own - we have to see that legislation does take place and
they will be breaking the law - if they don't co-operate.

Thank You for your valuable input into this thread.

I greatly appreciate it.

Op2,

As posted above, I hold secular Law needs to come down not only on the priests but their protectors too. That said, please note that "Suffer" meant something like, "to beckon without hindance," when the KJV was written.

O.

Foxy,

I suppose the next issue to deal with is -

How do we as "voters" get Governments to change the laws (if needs be) that enable the Police to have full unrestrained access to a churches records?

I have been doing a bit of thinking about this.

Maybe a petition should be started?

It could read (or words to this effect)

We the undersigned, being Australian citizens, do hereby insist that laws be amended or enacted immediately (as needs be) to empower the Police in every State and Territory of Australia to take whatever steps are necessary to access Church records in an effort to expose any and all criminality that has been undertaken by all churches who preach and/or are represented in any way whatsoever in Australia.

But wait http://www.bravehearts.org.au/ already have a petition for people to sign!

If people really care about this issue then perhaps a quick wander over to that site and a few minutes of your time and we can help move this along.

I know it seems amazing that one would need a petition to get our Governments to react properly on sexual abuse but such is the ways of Government.

Why isn't a link to this petition on every Church website, every Government website, and every political parties website?

Why don't the smaller political parties immediately place a link?

Why don't we all email our families and friends to sign this petition?

Why don't we ask our churches, if we have one, to place a link on their websites?

OR Why don't the churches just ring the police and hand over all the evidence that they are sitting on?

We have a new Labor government - Why don't they announce sweeping changes in this regard and get all the states onboard today?

As a bare minimum people please sign the Braveheart petition!

Dear Opinionated2,

Once again, you've done us all proud.

Thank You for the 'Bravehearts,' website.
I certainly will be emailing family and friends
to get them to sign that petition. I would
encourage anyone who wants to do something
about sexual abuse to join us in signing.

If enough people join forces in this way -
perhaps it will prompt the politicians
into action.

Once again - Thanks to you for caring, and for
pointing us in the right direction.

Foxy,

You have raised an important issue. We must all be active to prevent paedophila in the priesthood. Several people I know hear of "rumours" via Catholic Education Office of "transfers" to yet another school. Hearsay or truth? The laws of liable make it hard for them to come forward. Maybe, Crime Stoppers should have a special ring-in.

O.

Dear Oly,

Thanks.

It certainly would help.

Foxy,

Maybe we can do much better than just this.

What about one of those pass it on emails like the pink lady walking against breast cancer? Is there a lawyer here who could tell us if this would be legal? We wouldn't want to break the law!

We could mention these sites in it

http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/

and

http://www.bravehearts.org.au/

and ask them to sign the petition.

We could also put a link to the ABC show you saw if you wanted.

Just a thought!

Dear Opinionated2,

Thanks for all your suggestions.

I've already emailed friends and family, and my
Member of Parliament,
and referred the sites you've quoted to them.

I've also emailed comments to the ABC.

I'm sure that this thread will prompt others to
do the same.

I feel that I've achieved what I set out to do.

Thanks Opinionated2

I have signed the Bravehearts petition.

Dear Foxy

Did you watch QandA last night? I am now a completely unabashed fan of Father Peter Kennedy - the world needs more people like him. On the other side of the coin I found Tony Abbott completely disingenuous - he lied when he said that he puts politics before his religion, I recall his stance on RU486 and he appeared ignorant in the face of Fr Kennedy's knowledge of Christian theology. Sometimes it is better to remain silent and only appear ignorant.

I also agree with Fr Kennedy's view that the problems with the Catholic church would be virtually eliminated if women held equal places within the church. It was heartening to hear that. The attitude towards women is one of the biggest problems I have with religion in general and the Catholic Church in particular.

Have you ever thought of joining the Unitarian Church which is completely nondenominational (even atheists like me are welcome) but take their philosophy more from pre-Constantine Christianity?

Dear Fractelle,

I did watch 'Q and A' last night.
And I also was impressed by Father Kennedy.
His take on more women in the Church I totally
agree with - as well as his stand on so many
other issues. If only we had more priests like
him. (sigh).

As for 'potty mouth,' Abbott - he really should
keep quiet...his brain and mouth aren't
connected.

Yes, I have thought about other Churches - but
its really hard to break with the heritage you've
been raised in. I still keep hoping that with
enough of us voicing our concerns - changes will
eventually occur.

Silly , aren't I?

Not being religious at all, I can never understand why women want to be part of the catholic church. Why try and change a male dominated, archaic institution. The same with gays wanting acceptance by the church.

I think if churches were true to their beliefs they wouldn't be flexible. Isn't that part of a religion that the rules are set and aren't to be broken. Where does it stop? Women and gay priests, divorce, de-facto couples, open marriages, contraception, masturbation, Mass in English, there'll be nothing left of the original rules if they keep going. That to me leaves them with no credibility at all when they keep watering down the rules.

That's the church's rules and if you don't like them why not make your own church. By definition if you don't agree with the rules you aren't a true catholic. If enough people no longer like the rules the church can die out by natural attrition.

Isn't that how the Church of England started?

Dear Houellebecq,

The origins of the Catholic Church were that of
being a 'Community,' of people caring about
each other, of inclusion, not exclusion.
And that is something that has been forgotten
over the years. It's something that Father
Kennedy in Brisbane practices - and why his
Church manages to attract over 800 people every
Sunday. The Church according to Christ's
teachings should not be about 'power,' and
'control.' It should not be about
protecting hierarchy. It should not be about
'sacra potestas: holy power.'
But about love, justice, compassion,
and decency. The Second Vatican Council taught
that "we can now choose to identify conscience
with our personal opinions and disagree with
Church teaching especially on matters of sexuality
and life..."

As Dr Paul Collins points out in his book, "Believers,"
"Personally, I am optimistic that Catholicism in Australia
will survive, certainly with lesser members, but with more
commitment and ministerial energy. But to achieve that
Catholics will require genuine local leadership and a
willingness to confront both the difficulties and
opportunities that the Church faces."

Very interesting Foxy. As I said, I'm non religious, but I like to hear people's passionate opinions on religion. Actually any opinion with passion is good. Spice even better:-)

'"we can now choose to identify conscience
with our personal opinions and disagree with
Church teaching especially on matters of sexuality
and life..."'

Sounds like a free for all to me:-) I suppose I see organised religion as being for people who want hard and fast rules to complex problems. You're not going to appeal to these kinds of people with such statements. I'm sure runner for example would HATE that:-) And BOAZ would say make it up as you go or something like that.

Otherwise why not just read the bible and interpret it your own way as the above statement? Why bother with a church at all?

Dear Houellebecq,

Why bother with a Church at all?

Because it is my Church.

And, as I've said previously...
I'll follow my conscience.
I'll demand meaning and relevance from
my Church.
And, I won't allow my Church to behave dishonestly,
which is what it does when it hides the sexual abuse
of children by its priests, which is the topic of
this thread.

H

With enough people like Foxy, Father Kennedy and Father Bob Maguire, a healthy inclusive and truly holistic church will not only endure but evolve. While I do not believe in any great patriarch in the sky, I do understand the comfort that religion has to offer people and the absolute good that congregations that Father Kennedy and Father Bob inspire for our community.

I don't have to be a believer to see the good that is achieved by religion, nor do I have to believe to criticise where religion gets it very wrong as in covering up for their paedophile priests or treating women as second class citizens.

Dear Fractelle,

Thanks for your kind and insightful words.

To me - you represent - the good - that we
should all strive for. I remember ages ago
your explaining (on another thread) about
your beliefs - the universe - and the
awesomeness of it all. It was beautiful to read -
and totally inspiring.

You are an inspiration - and although I appreciate
your kind comments - they're more applicable to
yourself - than me.

Foxy,

I understand the dilemma, a good person like yourself faces, when, sexual abuse, is exposed in your religion.

If what is stated at http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/ is correct the alleged perpetrators seem to get the support from the Church Hierachy.

Is this unChristian behaviour?

It states on the first page:

"In the photo, Catholic priest Gerald Ridsdale (left) walks to court, accompanied by his support person (Bishop George Pell, then an auxiliary bishop in Melbourne), when Father Ridsdale was pleading guilty to his first batch of criminal charges in May 1993.

But no bishop accompanied the victims, who felt deserted by the church hierarchy."

Where were the good Bishops, priests etc.?

What does this do to your list of Christian qualities?

If what was stated by brokenrites is true - Is there any

Compassion for the victim?
Justice for the victim?
Decency for the victims?
Sympathy for the victims?
Love for the victims?
Empathy for the victims?

And if the hierarchy of the church no longer displays these Christian traits would Christ really support such an organisation using his name?

What does this say about how insignificant the Popes apology was recently?

You also stated correctly that there are many good and caring priests in the Catholic Church. How did Cardinal Pell get to the top, if what this site alleges is true?

Why are the other good priests silent? What goes on in the Catholic organisation which is kept out of the public eye?

I honestly wish you well in trying to change your church from the inside, but, a recent article in the Courier Mail, if true, alleges more problems.

I have put this link on other threads because it is fairly current.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,,25083343-3102,00.html

If churches fail in the simple rule of Matthew 7:12 Do unto others...and fail to report crimes what hope is there?

Furthermore, if churches continue to oppress a woman's ability to preach using Paul's oppression of an entire gender 1 Timothy 2:11-12 then your battle becomes even greater!

I too sent emails to all my friends and others.

Good luck with your mission!

Dear Opinionated2,

Thank you.

I'm already aware of the facts that you point out.
And, sadly I don't have the answers for you.
However, I do know that there are many who think
like I do - and perhaps together we will achieve
changes.

As the old proverb says:

"Drop by drop even a mountain can be changed."