Ancient Egyptians worshipped, Ra. Pidias built an enormous statute honouring Zeus. Historically, Hawaiian islanders believed in a trinity, where, one god (Io) was of three parts; Kane, Ku and Lono. For traditional, Australian aboriginals, Altjira is the god of the sky. Today’s Christian, if born a Latin in the first century, would be calling Christianised Jews, atheists. Since the Enlightenment, more and more people do not believe in a divinity at all.

1. Does not the above brief outline suggest any appeal to Free Will in relation to Faith is critically diminished by Determinism? Given variations in one’s time & place of birth and nurture; how can any belief in any one religious faith, be held the more the valid?

2. Is the OT wrong: Is there more than god or, at least many means to worship one god? Why Yehaw? Why not Zeus?

3. Why do many religionists worship one god before other? Is a Holy Spirit or a Society at work in directing the choice?

4. Why would an omniscient entity require worship, anyway?

5. Is Atheism eminent because atheism fully addresses all religious belief, whereas, each religion is merely one part of a greater whole, Theism? Doesatheism offer a more intact gestalt?

Let's makes this a little easier to swallow:

There are many gods. Ancient Egyptians worshipped, Ra. Pidias built an enormous statute honouring Zeus. Historically, Hawaiian islanders believed in a trinity, where, one god (Io) was of three parts; Kane, Ku and Lono. For traditional, Australian aboriginals, Altjira is the god of the sky. Today’s Christian, if born a Latin in the first century, would be calling Christianised Jews, atheists.

Does Free Will in relation to Faith diminish because of Cultural, Societal and Familial driven influences? Do theists choose their gods freely?

"Do theists choose their gods freely?"

NO.

Majority are indoctrinated as children.

Next question please.

Dear Oly,

You asked, "How can any belief in any one religious
faith be held the more valid?"

Realistically, it can't. But as we well know there
are a large number of religions, many of whose
members are convinced that theirs is the one true faith
and that all others are misguided, superstitious, even
wicked. For example most Western Christians, being white,
tend to think of both God and Jesus as white. The idea
of a black God is foreign to them, and portraits of
Jesus frequently present him as a blond Caucasian rather
than as the person of Semitic features he no doubt was.

Is there more than one God?
Of course. polytheism, in cross-cultural terms is a belief
in a number of gods. There is usually a "high god," who is
often the "father," of the other gods and somewhat more
powerful than they are. The lesser gods have specific
spheres of influence such as, war, harvests, earthquakes,
and so on.

Why do many religions worship one God before another - Is the
Holy Spirit or Society at work?
I believe that the origins of religion were social, not
supernatural. The rituals enacted in any religion enhance the
solidarity of the community as well its faith.

Religious rituals such as Baptism, Bar Mitzvah, Weddings,
Sabbath services, Christmas Mass, and funerals, these
rituals bring people together, to remind them of their
common group membership; to reaffirm their traditional
values; to maintain prohibitions and taboos, to offer
comfort in times of crisis and, in general, to help
transmit the cultural heritage from one generation to
the next.

Why would an omniscient entity require worship anyway?
Its part of a ritual. A formal, stylized procedure,
such as prayer, incantation, or ceremonial cleansing.
Ritual is a necessary part of religion because it inspires
awe, reverence, and deep respect, for the sacred. It is
regarded part of the supernatural world
rather than the ordinary world.

What does atheism offer?
An alternative belief to the supernatural.

Do theists chose their gods freely?
Yes.

cont'd

Dear Oly,

To your question: "Do theists choose their gods freely?"
I answered Yes, because I was thinking of adults. Who
are free to choose what they believe in. But as Fractelle
pointed out - children are often indoctrinated into the
religions of their parents - so I guess my answer would
have to probably realistically be "No" as well.

As Mr Thwackum, a character in Henry Fielding's novel,
"Tom Jones," declares:

"When I mention religion, I mean the Christian religion,
and not only the Christian religion, bu the Protestant
religion, and not only the Protestant religion, but the
Church of England."

Most people are like Mr Thwackum: when they mention religion,
they have their own in mind.

Foxy

Love how you look at both sides of an argument, until you wrote your second post I was going to post a rebuttal.

I still think that adults, generally speaking, don't freely choose their gods (or religion) as the majority stick to whatever one that their culture is dominated by.

For myself as a WAS/Celtic Australian I was baptised (parents just followed tradition) sent to Sunday school (more for social reasons) and endured some compulsory R.I at school. I freely chose not to believe in formal religion of any type, I find the idea of a paternalistic god-in-the-sky laughable (sorry Foxy), however, I do remain open to the fact that we humans do not know everything and are unlikely ever to know everything.

However as adults we are free to choose whether or not to believe in a deity, it all depends on how well the childhood indoctrination took and on personality as well I suspect. For example, people like Runner, Boaz/Carp seem programmed to be seriously religious and would no doubt be equally fervent muslims had they been born somewhere like Iran or Iraq.

For others, like your good self Foxy, you are free to choose the very best aspects and discard the rest, like stoning women and hating homosexuals.

Children don't have much choice but to follow the beliefs of their parents. As we have seen, while religion is treated as somehow "more special" all religions will continue to produce a small percentage of extreme fundamentalists because some people simply like to think they are better than everyone else.

Cheers m'dear

Dear Fractelle,

As you know I was raised as a Catholic.
My ancestry is Lithuanian, with Russian
on my mum's side.

But I'm afraid I'm not a very good Catholic. I cringe
at the attitude of church leaders like
Cardinal Pell - his, and the
Church's stand on so many things, I can't
identify with.

I would never consider myself superior to
anyone else - especially as far as belief is
concerned, because that's such a personal thing.
I certainly have no intention of trying to convert
anyone. Whatever gets you through the night -
live and let live is my personal ethos.

Anyway, Thanks for your kind words, and as always -
take care,

Dear Foxy

You may not be a very 'good' catholic but you are an exemplary Christian. I suspect no matter where and how you received your religious indoctrination you would always be a tolerant warm human being.

On rereading my last post, I may have sounded a little patronising towards you and I apologise. I can well imagine how conflicted you must feel about the likes of Pell - he strikes me as one of those who like the power. On the other side there are people like Father Bob Maguire.

http://www.fatherbob.com.au/

Dear Fractelle,
What is a christian how Do you define someone as a christian.

Dear Foxy,

1. It is interesting how very many religions there are across place and time with each adherent often seeing their god special. The monotheists claiming the one only. The polytheists often had a patron god or a favoured god. It seems humans wish to project themselves into the supernatural which we have invented. Your illustration of god being depicted as a “white” Eastern European underlines the point.

Liked the apt Tom Jones quote.

2. When it comes to polytheism and even different stances on the one god, Christian theists, are very un-Forrest Gump-like and dismiss all the chocolates with one stroke, without standing back and considering all theologies (their god and other gods). Religious worship can take much of a theist’s time. Independent meta-examination of the history religiosity would seem to the best way to weigh-up and compare and contrast claimants. Once on the fly-paper, the theist frequently stays stuck. One the reasons I post here is not to criticize religion rather it is coax theists towards looking at a bigger reality where there reality (belief system) is but a small part.

3. Suspect you are correct in that the origins are societal/social, wherein a priest caste overloads interpretation.
Perhaps religious inclination is a bastardised residual from our survival evolution having physiological structures. The Limbic System is involved in survival responses. Looping between the Limbic System (old brain) and Neo-cortex (new brain) might explain humanity’s penchant to believe in god, the afterlife and kind. I found it interesting to note the Limbic System is highly responsive to Olfactory Stimuli. Here, we might religions very often use incense to enhance the experience in temples and churches (synagogues?). Rituals as you say bring people together. People indwell (Polanyi) in the performance. Services confirm and reinforce behavior.

4. For theists worship via ritual is part of belonging. We need to worship. But say hypothetically, there is a god. Why would an all-powerful god need worship? To me, it wouldn’t

/Cont.

Foxy,

5. I tend to agree with you and Fractelle folk don’t choose their beliefs freely. Belief meaning, not only between theism and atheism, but choosing the god(s) endorsed.

It is easy for the atheist or agnostic to be a “seeker,”, yet it is really hard for the theist. Sells knows the god, religion, the creed and, denomination. He is not alone, only, for others, their the creed and, denomination are painted on a differenct canvas.

Fractelle,

Was your's a left or right brain (both?) chose to not believe? Do you see any difference between believe in the god of a religion, and the general belief in an unrevealed god?

Cheers,

Oly.

Fractelle you write

's we have seen, while religion is treated as somehow "more special" all religions will continue to produce a small percentage of extreme fundamentalists because some people simply like to think they are better than everyone else.'

The whole reason I become a Christian is because I knew that my heart was just as wicked as yours or anyone elses. Your assumption is wrong.

I also take exception to the fact that I would make a good Muslim. My parents were not and are not deeply religous. I also believe in treating my wife with respect and dignity unlike Islamic teachings. The truth is that I would make a better heathen than Muslim if not for my relationship with Christ.

Dear Runner,
To truely understand a chicken you must first be born into the chicken family. A religious person to understand christianity Must be born again into the family of God, Jesus word not mine.

Dear Richie 10,

The basic tenet of Christianity is:

"That you love one another as I have loved you."

Dear Foxy,
Unless the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in you you are not a christian at all.God is love and apart from him we do not know love only in him are we able to put aside our diferences and truely love one another. I once tried to give up swearing in my own strength. whenever it appeared in my mouth I rebuked it but with the right conditions it came back. When I confessed and repented to the Holy Spirit I was freed from the Power of bad language .God the Holy Spirit, God on earth since penticost has power over sin and death.Natural man can't know God only those bornagain of the incoruptable seed of the Word of God. This will be very contraversial to some . God said it .I believe it. That settles it for me.

Oliver

In (brief) answer to your very interesting question, initially it was a left-brain decision - my education in and love of natural science, tied together with the discipline in thought required for mathematics and english composition was the beginning of my disenfranchisement with (initially) Christianity. This was followed by an investigation into the other Abrahamic religions which proved as contradictory and inconsistent as Christianity (along with the diversity of opinion within each religion).

My emotional, intuitive feelings took much longer. Therefore my right brain clung to the idea that somewhere there was something greater than the pettiness I saw in humanity. However, the idea of a paternalistic deity did not fit with a right-brain consciousness so eventually my choice was complete. From that point on I have declared myself an atheist although I find the term lacking in depth and breadth of meaning.

Richie

There are as many different definitions of christians as there are christian sects, had you read my posts more thoughtfully you would realises that someone like Foxy best expresses my ideal of the 'christian'.

Runner

Suggest that your attitudes have more in common with Islam (on abortion, homosexuality, women's fertility) than any 'heathen'.

Foxy

You go girl.

Dear Fractelle,
There are many religions but only one truth . Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the light".
God the Father said "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."
God the Holy Spirit confirmed it by raising him from the dead.
All other religions follow a dead mans ideas.
Jesus the christ was conceived by a word from God . ALL OTHER MEN come from the seed of Adam. Christ didn't rot in the grave as our bodies will But rose from the dead and is now seated at the right hand of the Father. He sent Gods promise the Holy Spirit to represent
him on earth. To confirm his word with signs and wonders for unbelievers. All in the bible But without the promise it is impossible to comprehend. Christianity is about a change of heart not an intectual walk.

Dear Richie,

Thank You for sharing your beliefs with us on this
Forum. "However faith has passed from the passive and
complete acceptance of a body of truths to the honest
search for total commitment.

The world has become meaning-centered, and the individual
measures the traditional truths in terms of personal value.
They refuse to accept irrelevant sermons, a sterile liturgy,
a passe and speculative theology which explores publicly dry
and distant formulas, a law which does not explain its own
origins. They demand a minister who reaches them in honest
dialogue. They will not be bullied by moralizing which ignores
the true and complex context of modern life..."

You are welcome to your beliefs - and your "truth"
but to each his own.

I do not fear hell because I can't fathom it. I do not seek
heaven because it offers no image I can grasp. I only
struggle to find myself, to love my fellow human beings, and
to hope that in this way I am truly loving God.

Cheers

Foxy,

Thank you.

I was took a test and maxed the left-brain scale. I hope their is sufficient ight-brain left to be sociable and nice. After I think I am a humanist!

Affective emotions such as love, belongingness and comfort would seem to be right-brain. Actually explaining how religions occur and operate in history and, Science in cosmology, physics and biology uncovering the fundamentals of universe and life, would seem to be left-brained.

Theists seem to feel before they think. Atheists (and agnostics)think before they feel. I feel god does not exist (or is unknowable) only after I have tested the data.

Were history and science not so good at providing clear alternatives to the existence of god, I would, and, only then, be less sure of the left-brain reasoned result. Left is right!

Richie,

a. How does a Spirit raise a Jesus? And why does Jesus ascend - as ascending suggests temporal movement of said Jesus? If leaving space-time, why wouldn’t Jesus simply vanish?

b. Surely love is an emotion known not only to the construct, “God”. I would have thought love to be a near universal emotion, as are anger and happiness. To be an atheist, without god, is not being without love or, willingness to sacrifice oneself.

c. If God is all powerful, would not have God had power over sin before the Pentecost event?

If God created sinful, (free willed) humans, who is the First Cause of sin? Would not placing the tree of knowledge and the snake in Eve’s presence be like placing a drink in front of an alcoholic? A responsible person would not tempt an alcoholic. Why would God tempt Eve (and Adam) by orchestrating events towards the Fall.

d. Would not have other mendicants of Jesus’ time appear to raise seemingly dead people. Mendicants were known to Jesus’ time

e. How do you know what god says? If the natural is limited and the supernatural unbounded,how do you tell God from a proficient pretender?

Peace to all

Oly.

Dear Oly,
If you Truely seek the truth seek Jesus the Christ. If you only want your emotions tickled stick to fiction,Hollywood style.

Dear Richie,

Thank you for your post.

Above, my comments were mindful of Christian teachings or the history of Jesus' period. Here, I see nothing impractical in study of the object, Jesus, in addition to, the teachings of Jesus. Logically one would need to assess the fundamentals of the former, before progressing to the latter. If one does know the construct it is a hazard to extrapolate on an unknown or poorly known.

If we say the Truth is Jesus & Jesus is the Truth,we have a circular argument. Can you not see it?

Regards,

Oliver

Dear Oliver,
I didn't have the advantage of much formal education and am alive only by Gods grace so my Knowledge of Jesus is through personal experience only which lines up with the bible writings.When you have experienced hell on earth and only have God left to call on then you might begin to understand God who is Love not some vaig concept or conversation topic.

Dear Richie,

Thank you for your explanation.

Regards,

Oliver

Oliver

I answered your question regarding whether I thought my choice to reject religion was right or left brain oriented - did you have a response or an agenda to elaborate on right versus left brain influence in believing in religion or not?

Truth to tell, your exchanges with the pious Richie aren't progressing your original topic and of interest only to you both.