That was a good post yabby, how realistic is it to ask governments local state and federal to save us from our selves?
Unlike many I find C J Morgan one of the better posters, he may find me a pain in the butt.
I however blame radical activists for not letting us manage the bush.
We all should be, maybe are, conservationists, but like every thing in life we all get it wrong some times, all of us.
My mind as I tell of my history of fighting fires, is full of memory's of fire storms.
But they stopped at fire break trails, many of them, they did jump, once over my head and surround me with fire.
Our fires are worse than past fires, we have lost great forests to these fires, not all trees regenerate.
Ludwig has stayed away, he has knowledge of trees and the bush, Even if his ideas are the opposite of mine I would have liked to hear them.
Right now NSW can count its self lucky, we have not had the continuing heat, we do have the fuel, more than most can remember waiting if not this year next to bring death to our forests, animals people and parts of the forests too.

Yabby
"The role of Govt might well be to help those who cannot help themselves, too old, too frail, too young etc"
Do you mean thegovernment rescued the"too old, too frail, too young etc people?
Do you mean the people saw that the government was moving the old, frail, young people but they stayed there because they wanted to become...souvlaki!
In big problems invidual's worries and responsibilities passes to government shoulders!
If the government is weak, if its solusions is not good enouph, (about two hundends deaths from fires!) then in the next elections you know what happen!
PEOPLE'S INTERESTS ARE ABOVE POLITICAL PARTIES INTERESTS, WHEN THE GOVERNMENT FAILED WE SENT IT HOME, WHEN THE PARTY CLOSE ITS EYES, WE KICK IT TO WOKE UP!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Yabby – agree with you it is better not to rely on the state to hold your hand or take care of your interests…

Lets look at the score card

Private individuals – raise over $50million in less than a week and donate tonnes and tonnes of goods without thinking about it

While

Government argues over the tiny cost of the emergency system it proved back in 2005 and

Centrelink send out 1400 letters (to charred and melted post boxes), telling people to find some identification which Centrelink will accept as proof of their existence before “bothering” them (Centrelink) in their important work of state….. bureaucracy at its best, taking care to find ways not to spend the taxes taken from bushfire victims and philanthropic Australians alike.




CJMoron “idiotic and hysterical bleating - about "green activists"”

Which part of the newspaper article upon which I based my criticism do you disagree with?

fire breaks are built for a purpose, interfering with their effectiveness should be seen as a criminal puruit no different to if the green activists had lit the fire.. worse…

that and protesting back-burns built up the fuel load, without which the best efforts of any arsonist would have been less deadly than they were.



But you defend the tree-hugging twits… you would


Like you would find their company more to your liking than real people anyway…. All out there with the woodland pixies….



“Unfortunately I'm not allowed to say exactly what kind of wit I think he is at OLO.”

Must be frustrating… all those words locked inside and not the wit to know how to use them…

ah well, back to chewing on your bone, Rover.

CJ,
It would appear that my frustration of my last post was misunderstood as grape shot.
My intention was to point out that finding scape goats is both as counter productive as it is diversionary.
As I implied about the fire in the Adelaide hills focusing on that it was started by business men … is patently myopic rubbish. The fire was started by a few * ignorant irresponsible individuals* (they should have known better) the fact that they were business people is irrelevant. Likewise focusing on labelling those who interfered with fire breaks as ‘greenies’ is curmudgeonly, malicious mischief.
They are more accurately described as myopically irresponsible fools. This focus insults those of us that work to maintain an environmental balance including trying to ‘maintain an environmental balance’ (and mitigate catastrophic fires) from a position of real scientifically based knowledge/ strategies. I am only one.

I would also reiterate earlier my earlier posts that bush maintenance is far more complex than most individuals believe.

Also cold burns are today, because of white man’s intervention (again weeds and living close to these areas, old farming practices etc) are far more difficult/complex affairs. They require more careful consideration than simply appropriate weather circumstances. Weed species growths are thicker and usually burn hotter than native undergrowth thus risking a ‘common sense’ cold burn turning into a catastrophic totally destructive hot burn.

Environmentally, many Australian species need cold burns to propagate about every five to ten years (area /species dependant). Hot burns and more regular cold burns tend to both favour weeds and negatively affect native forests = higher/hotter fire risks.

It is almost irresponsibly naïve to draw a direct simplistic correlation between aboriginal fire stick farming and very changed environmental circumstances in much of Victoria today. The CSIRO have said as much.
There should be discussion on this tragedy but when we’re specifically discussing causes let’s at least be reasoned. We owe at least that to the victims and to ensure we work towards reducing its impact next time (and there will be a next time this is Australia)

Antonios, you can't compare New Orleans with this situation as you
tried to do, for in that case your conclusion would be very wrong.

The American Govt had a dedicated, well resourced emergency agency,
which did nothing days into what was a national emergency. That
is certainly not the case here in this case. Every level of Govt
has been brought in to deal with this crisis, quite different to
this situation.

Sadly people seem to need pain to learn and these fires might for
once make it plain to everyone what happens, when forests of gum
trees are left to build up huge amounts of litter and no firebreaks.
Add some wooden houses into the mix, along with a stinking hot
day and strong winds and wooosh, you have your answer.

Up until this point, local, state and federal Govts have still
been squabbling about the need for regular controlled burning.
Now they might have their answer for all to finally accept.

But Govt can't be waiting on your doorstep to rescue you, if on
a stinking hot day, with those kinds of winds, you are too stupid
to pay any attention and make no effort to rescue yourself.

The day before those fires, it was even mentioned on tv over here
in WA, that Victoria would have a crisis day due to weather
conditions. If people live in those kinds of areas, they are free
to listen to the radio, look out the windows for signs of smoke
and get the hell out if they feel they are endangered. Govt
can legislate for good judgement, people are still responsible for
their own actions.

Foxy,
I hope fractelle is ok too. I hope everyone is safe.

Sadly because of it proclivity for bush fires Cherry Gardens/ Corromandel CFS had a series of sirens that sounded stages in bush fires as long a go as 17 years.
First siren meant a fire, second meant prepare to leave or fight except for the time I helped in the station I never heard the third I was always long gone. To me that's the reason for insurance companies.

RobP,
Since our original comments I've spoken to some people who would know what’s best and they suggested that a tight fitting door would be critical. The suggestion was that a bunker dug into a side of a hill with a meter or so of earth over and around the bunker. It was also suggested to be a substantial distance between the flames and the door. He suggested a tunnel with a bend. I didn't ask about an air lock but that would seem a good idea because of differences in pressure O2 being sucked out when a door is opened. Bob suggested this sucking of O2 would only be problems if the fire was extremely close and therefore perhaps the airlock would be unnecessary for a family bunker all in before the fire was that close to make a difference.
In Cherry Gardens they have noted that double glazed windows and shutters do tend to stop breakage due to differences in air pressures in and out of doors
Or something like that Bob is an engineer as well as a area CFS commander and sometimes he goes off into engineerese and becomes untranslatable to mere mortals. Our regional SES commander (different state) was concerned about speed of fires for area/town bunkers to be practical.
Cheers examinator