Nothing will remove the dreadful pain of this past week, like many I will drop in to a bank today and give to the appeal, Aussies always do.
So many deaths it is so very sad, much needs to be asked about those fires.
I have, many of us have , worn the yellow of bush fire brigades, mates are 600 klm away from home in Victoria fighting them now, I honor them all.
From an 11 year old fully active fire fighter, long before brown books or formal training, manning blitz trucks with mums and old men while dads worked in mines I have known.
Fire bugs light most fires.
We need a Royal commission into these fires.

Maybe a Royal Commission to check the quality of controlled burns which have not been undertaken because of enviromentalist/green protestors asserting their authority to protect the lesser-known dingbat too, Belly

We have a drought, we have lightning strikes and whilst we also have arsonists, we have a situation where land owners are forbidden, by law, from burning dead trees on their property when it is safe to do so because of the authority of entomologist public servants, concerned more with the life cycle of "bugs" than people and we also have DSE burnoffs which have gone out of control 2004 fires (although they would not have been a contributor in this weeks tragedy)

This tragedy and the loss of loved ones is a timely reminder to Mr Five Percent (little Johnny's clone) that population expansion is an imprudent policy.

No longer can we clear great swathes of forest for residential development. No longer will Australians desire to reside in areas surrounded by beautiful woods, harking for the call of native birds and animals which are close to extinction.

No longer can the rural community continue on the self-destructing course of expanding herds of cloven hooved animals to feed the expanding number of humans - herds which are destroying top soil and turning this arid nation into a desert while they and/or their feed crops burn to cinders in Australia's summers.

No longer can we patiently wait for Mother Nature to regenerate and remediate the destruction of our carbon sinks, destruction wrought too by the evil arsonist.

But the false prophets will tell us otherwise.

Belly
Indeed.
At one stage I lived in alleged the most bush fire prone area in SA where you could count on 3 things each season.
Hot temps, gully winds and bush fires.It was on the edge of a vast water catchment (bush) area a series of wind prone gullies. on the side of a mountain range in a rain shaddow. Spectacular yes, lots of wild life yes but like the animals wild, admire but be wary not affraid.
After the Hills fires it became mandatory for all houses in this area to have the following
Boxed guttering,
Sealed eaves
Double glazed windows,
Shutters
Water tanks, with additional large fire fighting fittings
An independent petrol pump connected to a tank fed spray system on the roof enough water for 45 minutes spraying.
30 meters clearing around the house.
And mandatory fire hazard minimization clearing of scrub for a further 30 meters.
Houses set towards the centre of the block.
Regular inspections by the CFS
And notice of intention to fight or flee registered with the local CFS number of residents etc.
Sure this added to the cost of the house but simply put If you couldn't afford these you couldn't 'afford' (in both senses) to live there.

Every house was aggressively encouraged to have
Written emergency and evacuation procedures lodged and approved by the local CFS, appropriate clothes (boots/top to toe full overalls, jumpers for every member including children, no thongs sneakers, shorts, tee shirts) kit usually in a cupboard by the door. (Torches, canned food, a real first aid kit and containers for drinking water etc)
While in Qld I wondered why people who live near bush use fire access tracks behind their house for parking boats, storing fire wood or throwing garden refuse like palm fronds, pruned branches.
Having survived Ash Wednesday in Vic then the Adelaide hills the two things we learned were when living near the bush don’t be complacent and be prepared, most tragedies stem from these.
Yes a royal commission is justified if only to give grounds to enforce the above precautions.

I'm beginning to see the benefits of some sort of bunker.

It seems a lot of the dead stayed to fight for their houses or left it too late to leave.

It is truly heartbreaking.

If a Royal Commission should find the fires were largely lit by arsonists how do we proceed? I don't know the legalities but one news commentator mentioned if deaths occur the charges can be changed to murder.

Would longer prison terms be the answer? Arsonists seem to be compelled to commit these acts for reasons only known to them and seem indifferent to the potential consequences. Some have said it is a mental illness. I don't know.

What an irony that we have floods covering 60% of QLD and dry and hot conditions further south in much need of water.

Like Belly said we Aussies have demonstrated great generosity in the aftermath of disaster and I am sure we will all do the same again.

Fire bugs are like serial killers.

StG: "It seems a lot of the dead stayed to fight for their houses or left it too late to leave."

My thoughts exactly. The pictures I saw on TV showed houses that looked like they had been hit by a bomb. Survival in them simply wasn't possible. It seems people did figure out, but the fires were so fast by the time they came that decision escape was impossible and they died in their cars.

If I lived in an area like that, I would now be thinking of installing a "fire bunker" along the lines of the tornado bunkers you see in the US.

Meredith,

PM Rudd used the term "mass murderers" I think when police investigations indicated it was deliberately lit. Thats what brought me in here momentarily. Not to join and follow the discussion. Just to express my amazement that someone could deliberately light it. We have had 'ash wednesday'. It isn't as if people didn't know the potential devastation or at least sufficiently about potential devastation. At a minumum people could be expected to lose everything with thousands of sheep and cattle burned alive and some people killed. In this case a large number got killed.

He did MJ, and for once he is right.

In very dry and hot conditions, bushfires create their own wind which propels them incredibly fast as they hop between the treetops. I remember in the Ash Wednesday bushfires of 1983, a fire moved 12 kms from Deans Marsh in 12 minutes before stopping at Lorne on the Vic south coast. That fire was moving at 60 kms/hr.

You may not even outrun the fire by hopping in a car.

The best solution of all is to not live in forested areas. Barring that, a bunker would be a good idea, provided you got a bit of spare cash to build one. In the latest fires, a bloke backed his ute into a metal shed which started melting around him. He had to get out of the shed. When he got back after the fire had subsided he said that 4-inch steal beams in the shed had warped.

So, if you have a bunker under your house, you'd need a helluva strong metal trapdoor on it to keep the fire at bay.

I've been through a 60'000 acre fire, these ones are much larger.
We learnt a great deal from that experience and I can empathise
with those suffering now. All very sad.

Dickie, your post shows your complete misunderstanding of the
problem. CALM in WA peform regular controlled burns to
lower the fuel load in forests and other areas of Australia
could learn from that. Fact is it works.

Australian eucalyptus trees are loaded with oil and living
in a house surrounded by them, is asking for trouble.

Like other farmers in WA, I maintain a specific fire truck,
at the ready at all times, to deal with fires. Not a season
goes by where we don't have them. Lightning strike is the
biggest cause.

Dickie clearly does not know much about firefighting. Once
the forest is alight, if its loaded with forest litter,
forget trying to extinguish it, it will smoulder for weeks.
Crop stubbles once burning on a large front, are best left
until the edges, a road, a firebreak, or of course the
next grazed paddock.

The best firebreaks are still grazed paddocks, for the
fuel load is minimal and then one has a chance. Livestock
make a valuable contribution in creating firebreaks whilst
munching on dinner.

Bush Fires

They just spent half an hour in Parliment talking of this terrible event.
One thing they pointed out was the farmers and fire fighters described to them in great detail that the fire moved so quickly until it reached grazed padocks.

Then it only moved at 'walking pace.'

Return the stock to keep our padocks grazed and act as it did for years as a fire and weed protector.

Let them roam free as they should.

Its because of people moaning about this feed lots were introduced.



Yabby is correct its just the 'opposite.'

Why on earth dont you people get someone who knows about the bush and livestock if you insist on making comments on these topics.

If we want the birds and other Animals We put our stock back and give the farmers back their grazing rights.

This is a result of you people pushing an agenda knowing nothing about the bush.

One of the things we need most of all is Bushfire Education in schools. It should be taught along with a compulsory unit in First Aid and Emergency Response.
We should probably all be required to keep an Emergency Bag packed and ready to go, especially all those who live in fire prone areas.
I can remember herding the school sheep into our backyard so that the crop duster could land in the paddock and then take out supplies to men fighting fires and watching my 14yr old sister still making sandwiches at well after midnight to feed them - and all the time we were as scared as hell that the fire was going to get too close for us to do anything about it. That was forty something years ago and I have not forgotten - arsonists should be incarcerated for the term of their natural lives.

Paleif
Your suggestion is very short sighted and it depends on a number of issues.
Terrain,
If it is a catchment area,
Local weed infestations they often burn more fiercely than grass fires. They move fast and you can cover up against a log or hole, protect from radiant heat and 5-10 later you get up and go. In a weed infestation it is not so easy.
I’ve seen dust storm in Melbourne that blocked the sun sand blasted cars and turned on the street lights. I ve seen deep ravines created (erosion) in areas where cattle have grazed. Creeks/rivers full of top soil for the same reason.
BTW grass doesn’t grow where there is tight tree cover.
The issue is far more complex than that.
After Ash Wednesday wash up there were many causes for destruction and loss of life. The reports make scary reading.
In essence many of these deaths were avoidable. It’s not the bush so much as human folly.
I’ve seen people build surrounded by eucalypts with only one way out and that ran in the direction of the prevailing fire winds.
Nongs fighting bush fires in shorts and singlets with garden hoses. People not knowing when to give up and go. In short people who live in the bush should know what to do when not if a fire comes.
Houses property are replaceable lives aren’t.
For that reason all my important memories papers are in a fireproof cabinet (in case I'm not home) by the door. In case of fire they the pets and children…not to forget the wife are in the car heading to a predetermined safe spot.
In SA I told the CFS let the house burn lives aren’t worth a house.

First to the victims, the dead[how horrible that death was] the injured, homeless, relatives and friends, my deepest sympathy.
I feel scared too by these events, we all do.
that eleven year old boy was me 52 years ago, most spent as a bush fire fighter, in quite a few brigades.
Now Col Rouge, here you and I are 100% together, I may use other names publicly for radical conservationists but much harder words in private.
In 1956, we fought fires, tried to kill them ASAP, we kids climbed on the truck mid winter and our villages captains home from work burnt off all weekend.
Farmers dropped match's up to mid spring, fires as they had been pre white man did not often reach this massive fire bomb status.
Much has happened now in NSW very few brigades burn at all, most use bush fires to backburn, in truth spread more fire, yes know its controversial but its true, it happens back burn is a tool but too often burns more than the fire.
People who know nothing of this country's Aboriginal fire history, have increased the heat and damage of fires.
In a post here I said we would have increasing fires worse fires more deaths, it has not yet got as bad as it will, we must return to controlled burning before summer.
Laws in place prevent it.
People move to the bush on hill sides build in the bush even trees growing in the middle of the house, a gum tree is a time bomb!
We must become true conservations take it out of the hands of people like Dickie, we owe it to these victims to do far better in future.
I am only good for communications now age and health is not letting me run for my life any more.
My next post will be about fire bugs, murderers that they are, and just how many of them wear fireman's uniforms.

Dear Belly,

The horror has only just begun to sink in while
watching the news reports on television. Words
can't begin to describe this tragedy. My husband
and I went to our bank early this morning to make
a donation to the Fire Relief Fund.

As the names of the places where the fires hit come
up on the TV screen, we sit there in silence. Those
names are so familiar to us. Kinglake, Marysville,
and others, were places where we've holidayed, where
we have often gone for a week-end getaway. Now all are
all gone. As the body count grows, our prayers remain
with those who've lost everything, family, property,
friends, neighbours. With those who died, with those
who are clinging to life in hospitals. With the fire-
fighters, medical staff, volunteers providing food and
shelter.

We can only hope that the Royal Commission will provide
answers as to how something like this can be prevented
in the future.

We must learn something from this tragedy and see to it
that bushfires don't destroy lives in future.

As for the arsonists.

A life-sentence is what they should get.

StG, RobP, Rstuart,

I’d rethink the bunker under the house if I were you.
• Rubble blocking the trapdoor.
• The heat warping the door and it would be bloody hot for quite some time.
• Smoke, O2 depletion, heat might also add to your problems. Big ‘hot’ fires treetop and weed or scrub undergrowth fires burn very much hotter that fast moving so called ‘cold’ grass fires. Hot fires consume all the O2 if they surround (firestorm). You might not be touched by the flames but you die of asphyxiation.
Best you are prepared and not be there if it comes

examinator, "You might not be touched by the flames but you die of asphyxiation."

Nah, not really. The heat is very intense, but it doesn't last that long - 10 to 15 minutes usually. A small room holds enough oxygen for hours. You could probably ventilate it, as the amount of ventilation you need keep humans alive forever is so small I doubt the heat it would let in would matter. You could even drive it using convection of the body heat, so it would naturally shut off during worst parts of the fire when the outside temperature goes wildly above body temperature.

Secondly the heat of a bush fire is almost all radiated heat, and is least concentrated near the ground. Keep the surface area of the door small, such as a manhole cover size, keep it at ground level and it won't capture that much heat.

Thirdly, as a engineering problem, designing doors that survive heat is a solved problem, and has been for centuries. Think blast furnaces, or even a just a box fireplace in the home.

Finally, if you were trapped in it, you would have to be dammed unlucky not to have someone come along and check before things got too serious.

If you were designing and building your own bunker, then the things you list would be a problem. You would at least have to think about them all very carefully. But with design specs, and specifically engineered parts it would be decidedly less effort that say putting in a swimming pool. The major issue would be maintenance, not building it in the first place.

We are all in mourning over the loss of life and this tragedy.

Points about an underground bunker. One family was saved by entering their underground wine callar. The cellar could be built of fire proof bricks and not use any wood or paint. It should be near the house but not under the house. It could be under 150 mm concrete slab, equipt with water and oxygen masks. The house might burn for 20 minutes or more so it needs to be in an open area clear of combustible materials.

Foxy the dirty face black and weary is as likely to be female as male the captain and deputy too.
Most brigade members like all who volunteer are top draw, but.
I have served in 8 different brigades, never one that did not have a member, sometimes fully active sometimes camp follower, who was suspected a being a fire bug.
Lighting fires to put them out! to get the pat on the backs? its true.
A long time ago, nearly 20 years I developed a training course, we implemented it, changing things on our trucks, sending two crew members to inspect trucks on Sunday,things that we wanted them to know must be right every time, we find faults and change the truck back improvements came better teams too.
Group captain who helped me on day after we replaced the gear said these words, quote I am bored lets light a fire!
I never spoke to him again, he is far from alone.
The Royal commission will highlight my concerns, or it would if it was about NSW, I have not met a fire man who is not concerned about red tape and increasing opposition to preventive burning in colder months.
This country's Flora and fauna need fires, have thousands of years of low fires behind them, false Prophets of conservation are going to kill many more Australians unless we take the power away from them.
I ask this question to those who do not think fire fighters can be the ones who light them.
Are you likely to find pedophiles in jobs close to children?
Why would it be different with the sick bug%^%s who light fires and murder people?
And while the bush is great surely building your home inside it is not fair to your family? kids? even pets? yes Col I do swear at the thought of idiots claiming to understand something they never will.
Let fix this in memory of all the victims lets fix it now.

*BTW grass doesn’t grow where there is tight tree cover.*

Examinator, I think you are missing the point. Forest litter
that has accumulated for years, is a major problem. That
is why Calm do cold burns, to reduce the forest litter.

That entails dead trees, branches, leaves etc. All loaded
with oil. Its usually the forest litter that sets the
live trees alight.

One of the areas that we had to deal with was a patch of
bush that had been fenced off for 50 years, with no stock
and no fires in that time. Just accumulated fuel. It
was only about 600 acres but it stayed alight for weeks,
no way you could extinguish every bit, until rain came
much later. All that litter burnt down the live trees.

One thing I learned, alot of houses that burn down,
start at the gutters. So it pays to plug up the downpipe
with a tennis ball or whatever and fill the gutters with
water, if you are going to walk away from your home.

Common sense prevails. If its a wooden house, in the
middle of a bunch of trees, you are asking for trouble.
If its a brick home, surrounded by pasture, it can easily
be saved.

It might be worthwhile examining what actually worked to save people.

On the News tonight, one fellow survived by lying in a water pipe under the road which was partially filled with water. Although the fire licked into the end of the pipe, he and his mate crawled in far enough to survive. The worst part was sharing the space with spiders.

Another fellow had an outdoor above-ground bunker made of those big grey fireproof bricks. Obviously designed to repel fire, he survived although his house nearby burned down. So, some things work - people should learn from these experiences.

A bunker under a house would probably be a problem if there was only one passageway out and the debris from the house blocked the manhole cover. Otherwise build a second exit passage that exited into the backyard somewhere.

” Much has happened now in NSW very few brigades burn at all..”

Belly. NSW has a prescribed burning strategy like other states:

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/aboutus/news/bush-telegraph-magazine/spring-2006/the-power-of-prescribed-burns

"Dickie, your post shows your complete misunderstanding of the
problem. CALM in WA peform regular controlled burns to
lower the fuel load in forests and other areas of Australia
could learn from that. Fact is it works." (Yabby)

Yabby, It is you who misunderstands. In 2002-2003, 656 fires in WA burnt 2.11 million ha of land managed by CALM and in 1978 in WA, high winds from Cyclone Alby, combined with hot dry conditions caused more than 70 bushfires. These stretched from Wanneroo North, to Pemberton in the south-west.

Thousands of sheep and cattle died in the fires and entire crops were destroyed. By the time the fires were brought under control, they had burnt out about 31,500ha and caused two human fatalities.

In December 2007, DEC (WA) allowed a convoy of trucks to proceed into a raging bushfire in the Boorabbin National Park. Those who were able to disconnect their trailers or turn around, fled. Those who couldn’t perished.

The Bureau of Meteorology claims it told DEC hours before the roadblock was removed, that the wind would change between 7pm and 8pm. DEC has insisted it was told the wind change was not due until 10pm, and has struggled to adequately explain its own media releases from the time, which say the wind change was due at 8pm.

Seemingly you are unaware Yabby that a bushfire can jump paddocks and wide roads? With a dry and desecrated soil, foliage on trees wilt, making them an ideal vessel for combustion. WA has had prescribed burning since or before the 60’s, and CALM and other state agencies, no doubt do the best they can on limited funding.

Nevertheless, as I have written previously, man is no longer a match for an irate Mother Nature who must now endeavour to regenerate her carbon sinks, sinks burnt not only by nature, but predominantly by arsonists.

Belly. Your snide ad hominens (and your bloated ego) further expose your ignorance.

Let's open our eyes.
Did not we know that year by year the temperature goes higher?
Did not we know that year by year the weather become more strange, stronger and unpredictable?
Was we idiots to understand that under these conditions the risks, for devastating fires and loses of lifes are extremely high?
What did we do to prevend the loses of lifes from fires?
Last year, what was the cost from terrorist attacks and what from fires?
Last year how much costed our fight against the terrorists and how much money we spend to improve our abilities to wipe the fires?
How much money we wasted for one milion stupid reasons and how much to save lifes from fires, and other natural disasters?
Why we did not use our military forces to wipe the fires from the very begin?
We send them to Iraq or Afganistan but we had problem to send them to save the lifes from our families?
How did we educate our people about the fires, what kind of advices did we give them?
The financial crisis, the climate change, the fires in victoria and much more disasters have something very common. The big corporations which control our system are interested mainly if not only for the profit and not for the quality or the loses of human lifes.
We will lose much more lifes, we will see many more disasters, we will suffer harder and for longer until to unterstand that human lifes are more important from the profits, that WE MUST CHANGE DIRECTION IF WE DO NOT LIKE TO DESTROY THE FUTURE OF OUR CHILDREN AND GRAND-CHILDREN.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

examinator.

Definitely the best bet is to bail as early as possible. I've seen some people say they got caught pure and simple. They had no intention of attempting to be the hero and save the house. They just got trapped.

I think if you're to build a bunker, or shelter, you'd most definitely need to put some thought into it. I guess it'll be much like the bunkers in 'Tornado Alley' in the States. You'd need it in open ground to give yourself the best chance. Even if a grass fire passes over it'll all happen fairly swift. A bunker under a burning house would most definitely have the obvious dangers.

No harm in a preparation. Many died running. A terrible thing.

*In December 2007, DEC (WA) allowed a convoy of trucks to proceed *

Gawd, Dickie and her red herrings. So a mistake was made. What does
that have to do with the fuel load in forest fires?

Yes, large areas of WA burn every year, in the NW. WA covers a third
of this nation, with 10% of the population. Prescribed burns of
forest happen in the SW and they achieve results.

In the NW, with hardly any people and lots of areas having hardly
any cattle too, of course the place will burn when lightning
strikes. Nature is taking its course up there.

*Seemingly you are unaware Yabby that a bushfire can jump paddocks and wide roads?*

Seemingly you should stick to houswork Dickie, more like your
area of expertise:) Of course fires can jump paddocks and wide
roads. If you had fought fires, you would know that. But it is
far easier to extinguish the odd spot fire that might jump a
break, if you are in position and ready to go, then it is to
extinguish a whole firefront wall of flames, where you have
no chance.

*man is no longer a match for an irate Mother Nature*

Err man (woman) never was a match for mother nature, you remain
confused dear.

Time for your cup of chamomille and a lie down...

I considered the bunker idea as well long ago, until a fireman told me that many people die of asphyxiation when the available oxygen is sucked out of the air by the intense flames in a fire-storm scenario. Many people sheltering in swimming pools can suffer this fate.

When it's that intense, petrol driven pumps shut down (although diesel fares a little better).

No easy solution.

My heart goes out to all those who have lost.

ITS MURDER AND THE PENATLY IS LIFE.

And if a child is responsible, depending on the facts, and age, the courts are well versed in these matters.

But dead-sh@ts walk with us. ( key is commonsense ) = ( ... you fill in the gap.

EVO

I have no intention to be rude.
But the Dickie's of this world are the problem never the answer.
Fancy being pulled up for snide remarks by such.
My life of learning is fact , not made up, it continues, NSW has Dickie made it so hard people no longer control burn in winter, just the simple truth.
National parks are no burn zones, and home for future fatal fire storms, killing animals and whole forests for years, because they follow rules the Australian bush does not.
In the deepest forest, 11 klm of narrow bush tracks, dead trees hanging over the road waiting to fall and block it.
Live a community of males, the last 50 meters of that track is winding and barely walking pace road, the home has trees bigger than it , one built inside its walls.
They are conservationists, dead men walking, if fire comes they like 100,s die, pets die with them, we must all be conservationists.
In memory of so much pain so many we cry for we must fix the problem.
We got into this problem by giving ground to people who know nothing of this tragedy's roots, the real reasons it took place.
You do not go to the butcher for gardening advice, we must understand and fix this problem watch the Royal commissions outcomes see if I or Dickie has it right.

Reference bunkers (I got this off 'EnviroTalk').

"Hippies and survivalists have been building fire shelters for years. The ones that I've seen are usually dug in the side of a hill and are walled and roofed with logs, and with a minimum of a half metre of earth on top over the door, deeper further back. The doors were thick timber faced with corrugated iron, the corrugations have an insulating effect. The door must open inwards to preclude anything falling against it and making it impossible to open. The ground around the shelter ought to be free of any fuel, then the shelter only has to cope, hopefully, with heated air and smoke after the initial fire front passes. The hillside location makes drainage easy.
Supplies ought to be some high energy food such as quality museli bars, chocolate and plenty of boiled lollies (for the kids ,these particular supplies could be changed at Christmas) and the all important drinking water.
Boiled water or water straight from a good spring will last, without growing 'lurgies', for at least 12 months (personally tested this) in clean airtight containers.

Most important is air; it can be stored in truck tubes complete with tyres and wheels, (or tubeless tyres), the reason for having the tyres and wheels is that the pressure can be high and thus a fair amount of air, without any danger to the tube. A tube alone will probably hold a greater volume of air at a much lower pressure but the tube is vulnerable. Don't forget some candles, matches, a torch and a battery powered wireless.

As far as cutting down trees they need to be cut back from towns whatever distance it takes to make the town and the people safe, people are more important than trees around towns. There are fire retardant/resistant trees that can be planted for shade etc. Eucalypts are a hazard around homes.".

Seems sensible. I'd add that a firearm and a box of ammo would come in handy to humanely dispatch badly burned animals.

*Paleif
Your suggestion is very short sighted and it depends on a number of issues.
Terrain,
If it is a catchment area,
Local weed infestations they often burn more fiercely than grass fires.*
examinator,*

Examinator had you stayed on that station with your Nan (who BTW sounds fantasic) and learned from 'real farmers you might see you have got it totally arse about.

The WEED clogs up the dams rivers and that what put the soil.. The stock controlled both for many years. Look people are dead aothers have lost everything its no time for us to start a beef up.

For those of you who think a Royal Commission is the ants pants I can *assure you there are there for damage control and nothing else.

I for one will be looking at the terms of reference!

National Parks and Wildlife through this country have FAILED to keep up the maintance of the old dirt roads and fire breaks the farmers put in and used to maintain.

My farm is in the heart of one of the biggest National Parks . Its dairy and timber country. I can tell you that these roads are not maintained since the farmers were told to move their stock.

You have got Roos being shot out in some areas totally which doesnt help.

Lets make SURE the terms of reference look at WHO issues the permitts to cull Roos and ``How much the licence is worth.

Including behind the scenes.```

You have stock removed, Roos shot out, no services to the old fire road breaks.- Weeds clogging up the waterways that stock and Roos used to keep under control.

Then The Government says oh lets hold a Royal Commission- "damage "control.

The people responsible for this can be found at the Federal and State Governments.

Lets for now just give blood and offer to built new fire proof brick homes for these poor poor people.

Lets not forget them after a couple of months. . They have lost family.
God forgive the Australian Governments and National Parks and Wild Life.

Because I cant.

Home protection.
A archetect friend of mine who lost his home in the North west of Sydney about 20 years ago rebuilt his house of glass and steel suspended about 5 meters over the edge of a bush valley escarpment. Above the house up the hill was a large dam that gained run off from the road that ran along the ridge above his house. He had put a 50mm steel pipe underground into the base of the dam that fed by gravity down to the house equipped with a deisel motor and pump under the house that he constantly tested in rainy conditions. Mounted on the centre of the roof was a large monsoon spray that had a radius of 20 meters that soaked the whole area and the water ran off into a pool under the house which was surrounded by native ferns etc.

I believe it would be nationally accepted if the Federal Government gave each family $40,000 toward families rebuilding their lost homes as well as what they have already given. This would create employment and growth in those areas devistated by the fires. Of course many people would have their homes insured but they have other needs. That would compensate for loss, including loss of local employment.

In my first post I observed “check the quality of controlled burns which have not been undertaken because of enviromentalist/green protestors asserting their authority to protect the lesser-known dingbat too,”

Listening to the radio this am, it seems some “experts” hold a similar view…

The failure of DSE to back burn when they had the opportunity is being expressed as a real contributory factor….

The price of pandering to the demands of misguided environmental activists = 200 or so Dead.

The DSE have really earned their alternate name - Dept of Scorched Earth

Ah Belly “But the Dickie's of this world are the problem never the answer. “….
“National parks are no burn zones,”. . . .
“made it so hard people no longer control burn in winter,”

At least we seem to agree on some matters

Perhaps the answer is underground homes or partly above ground houses with mud brick walls and with earth covered roofs that can be mown.
There is a two storey mud brick house in the Wollombi Valley, nth. of Sydney, that has a turf covered roof. Regularly mown by hoisting a goat up, she has a good feed then bleats to be let down.
The Federal Parliament House in Canberra is a prime example of a turfed roof.

“My life of learning is fact , not made up, it continues, NSW has Dickie made it so hard people no longer control burn in winter, just the simple truth.”

Belly. If retards wish to perpetuate fallacies about another, they need to be a little less obtuse. I happen to be an advocate of prescribed burning. Do you have a remedial teacher in your area to assist with your "life of learning is fact not made up?" Ahem!

The completion rate of prescription burns in WA forests happens to be greater than in Victoria because WA forests occur in areas of mainly gentle topography, experience much more predictable weather patterns, and are usually dry enough in winter for prescribed burning. Nevertheless, the bushfires continue. In contrast, large portions of eastern Australian forests in winter are too wet for prescribed burning.

Sadly, your pig-ignorance prevents you from understanding that. It also prevents you from understanding that as land clearing and land degradation significantly impacts on Australia’s biodiversity, resource managers must consider the effects of prescribed burning on local ecology.

Fire has extremely complex effects on biodiversity because of the number of interdependent species existing in various environments. (check “biodiversity” in your dictionary – if you have one!)In addition Dumbo, as present-day fauna and flora populations are much reduced compared with pre-European times, it is now important to preserve the remaining biodiversity.

contd…..

Onya, Belly, for opening up some of the suppressed issues that amplify the severity of a natural feature of the Australian countryside, bushfires.

Bushfires are no respecters of title or tenure. They make no distinction between 'world heritage areas', national parks, State forests, farming land, or residential enclaves. The only distinction they make is that as to fuel-load. Their management requires a paramountcy of authority able to be exercised by, and on behalf, of the entire non-urban community. Like it once used to be exercisable at the volunteer bushfire brigade level of yesteryear, with its (local volunteer) brigade captain having paramountcy of authority in a bushfire situation even over the police! It has been the capture of bushfire control policy formation by sectional interests, and a fragmented bureaucracy reflecting them, that has contributed to bushfire severity, a situation that must be reversed and made truly representative of the non-urban community once again.

The frustration of controlled burn programs, be they on private or public land, by the over-complicated bureaucratic superstructure and maze of legislated prohibitions that has been put in place is an obvious factor in the immediate term leading to severity in the inevitable fires that must occur.

Perhaps not so obvious is the role of local government tree preservation and 'no burn' ordinances, and, at least in NSW, that of the Native Vegetation Act, in contributing to the fuel-load build-up that controlled burns would, if they were allowed to be undertaken without hindrance, mitigate.

Australia surely must return to a situation with respect to private land where the owner or lawful occupier does not have to be constantly looking over their shoulder in anticipation that some meddling busybody can interfere with the management of fire risk on their land.

A Royal Commissioner, if such is sincerely interested and the terms of reference sufficient, may rise above partisan politics and inquire into these many suppressed non-urban community concerns. Let's hope for a Commissioner that will reveal the sectional policy hijacking in detail, and come up with truly representative and workable recommendations.

"Common sense prevails. If its a wooden house, in the
middle of a bunch of trees, you are asking for trouble.
If its a brick home, surrounded by pasture, it can easily
be saved."

Common sense would seem to suggest this is true. The severity of a fire is a complex function of a number of factors: fuel load, air temperature, the right humidity levels, wind speed and topography etc.

However, there have been times when pastures have very quickly burnt as well. During the 2003 Canberra fires for example, there were reports of horses in paddocks not being able to escape the fireblast and of fire quickly ripping up the valley at the back of the suburb of Curtin even though it happened right in the middle of a drought and there was very little ground fuel. Don't know what contributed to this, but it could have been the valley acting as a flue as the wind blew up its sides. From memory, three houses were lost in the streets that abutted this land.

Most of the houses lost in Canberra (there were about 500) were in the hilly suburban fringe which lay adjacent to pine plantations and native bushland. The homes were lost due to ember attack as the wind fiercely blew a hail of sparks of all sizes towards the houses. There's no way to defend a house against a barrage of Roman candles. So, the moral to the story is that if you want to live in amongst bushland, you need to be aware of the risks.

*An argument against frequent broadacre burning policies and their limited effectiveness was raised by S Pyne in “Burning Bush” (1991) who argued that, under the worst weather conditions, prescription burning fails to effectively control fire fronts. *

Sheesh Dickie, you and your pencil pushing mates lack one thing,
any kind of common sense!

Perhaps its time that you got off your arse and went and faced
a fire front to see what really happens out there.

The point is, the less fuel load, the more chance you have of
extinguishing a fire. So what if they don't "effectively control
fire fronts"?

In the 60'000 acre fire that I was involved with, not a single
farmhouse was lost. Reason being that none were built in the
middle of a patch of gum trees. Some houses did catch alight
by embers falling in the gutters, but they were easily extinguished
by the many volunteers.

*Most of the houses lost in Canberra (there were about 500) were in the hilly suburban fringe which lay adjacent to pine plantations and native bushland. The homes were lost due to ember attack as the wind fiercely blew a hail of sparks of all sizes towards the houses*

Exactly. If you live next to a whole lot of gum trees and especially
if your house is made of wood, the barrage of embers, due to the
fuel load, could well burn your house down.

Dickie “Ram-root, Retard and Rouge-rat will continue to corrupt yet another thread by ad hominen, heinously indifferent to Australia’s mourning for its dead humans,”

Re-reading my own posts I fail to see where you can detect any “ad hominine” or “heinously indifferent” whatevers which dickie talks about

Reading Belly’s post likewise, a posting which attacked no one….

The one most virulent, to the point of being toxic seems to be dickie, famous for making claims of people lying only to be seem to back down when challenged.

I guess this is another of those times

So dickie please quote from my posts the “Ad-hominine” and “heinously indifferent” comments to which you refer

And remember one thing – if I do not get

the quotation from my post which you are referring to
or
your abject climb-down and public apology ,

I will stalk you from thread to thread until I do
And you know I am good for it.

“You do not go to the butcher for gardening advice, we must understand and fix this problem watch the Royal commissions outcomes see if I or Dickie has it right.” (Belly)

Right about what "Butcher?" Please enlighen me forthwith or will snivelling and evasion remain your preferred strategy now that I've again exposed you as a liar and clearly an illiterate?

“Sheesh Dickie, you and your pencil pushing mates lack one thing,
any kind of common sense!”

“Exactly. If you live next to a whole lot of gum trees and especially
if your house is made of wood, the barrage of embers, due to the
fuel load, could well burn your house down.”

What an astonishing revelation Yabby. Who on earth would have known that and how could we simpletons have realised that to sustain a fire, one must have a supply of fuel?

And without a doubt, both you and the other hero, will be duly recognised for the wonderful contributions you have made towards the preservation of life and limb in this nation.

Had you not advised us yourselves, of the magnificent work you have performed for Australia, we would never have known. I now honour you both with the One Star Hoppy badge for Chunder and an official entry into Australia’s Hall of Drongos:

“In the 60'000 acre fire that I was involved with, not a single
farmhouse was lost.”

“I have served in 8 different brigades, never one that did not have a member" ??

“In 1956, we fought fires, tried to kill them ASAP.

“From an 11 year old fully active fire fighter, long before brown books or formal training”

And nary a mention from the "Comedy of Errors" on the absolute necessity for a mandatory requirement for bunkers, basements or even old fashioned air raid shelters, constructed to protect humans, valuables and pets, in bushfire prone country.

It's just been announced on the TV news,
that they have collected $25 million for
the victims of the fires - from Australians
throughout the country.

It makes me proud that we can put aside our
differences in times of tragedy, and come
together like this.

We do the right thing, when it matters!

And of course climate change has absolutely nothing to do with it.

A Royal Commission's a really good idea, IMHO.

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming
"The people responsible for this can be found at the Federal and State Governments"
I agree with you PALE but there are top level beaurocrats too!
We speak for anything else ecxept for the persons who are responsible to protects us, to protect our land, our properties, our forests from fires, etc.
We speak for bad weather, for high temperatures, for arsonists but we do not speak for the responsibilities of the State government of Victoria.
Weather, temperature and arsonists did not appeared now for first time,
What did the state government to protect its citizens?
Why the state government did not undertake its responsibilities to protect the lifes of innocent people?
Why they did not use miletary helicopters to rescue our people who blocked from fires?
Why did not care to create a strong body to wipe fires, save lifes, support people in needs?
Why did not advice and train the people in areas with high risks from fires?
Did not they know that we elected them to protect at least our lifes?
Listen the voices of our brothers and sisters, HELP, HELP!
No one was there to help them! They burned alive! The government, the authorities was extremely weak to support our people,
THE AUTHORITIES FAILED TO SUPPORT OUR PEOPLE, THEY FAILED TO SAVE THE LIFES OF OUR PEOPLE!
This is the real problem!
No it is very late for the premier of Victoria.
Now it is time for him to resign,
IT IS TIME FOR THE PREMIER FROM VICTORIA TO GO HOME!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Paleif,
The flaw in your argument is that if native vegetation is left in tact it acts as a barrier against weeds. Most weeds are opportunistic. Some weeds are inedible and unaffected by the pressence of cattle i.e. Salvation Jane (Patterson's curse), Blackberry, Lantana, Easter Cassia, small leaf pepper trees, cape weed, Cirsium vulgare (thistle) et al these spread rapidly in disturbed (grazed environments). Some are poisonous to cattle Poison peach, Ricinus communis come to mind. Some weeds are spread by cattle, Bidens pilosa (cobbler’s pegs) and Parietaria judaica (Asthma weed). Some weeds poison other plants i.e. Camphor Laurel.
Many pasture weeds die in heat laying the ground bare for erosion.
In reality the weeds are a product of man’s intervention first and poor practices in the past. Clearing for paddocks has caused water table rises and salt destruction.

Much of the marginal grazing areas are being affected by desertification from grazing and the effect on natural balances (in some cases over grazing in times of drought).
Cloven hooves cause soil compaction see aerial photographs around water holes.
While not opposed to farming cattle sheep however in tight top cover environments like undisturbed riparian/ eucalyptus forests fodder is limited…because of low light levels.

Grazing has *scientifically* shown to do damage and even introduce weeds which in the long run reduce carbon stabilization.

Cattle families are reluctant to admit that previous practices caused problems and scream rabid greenie if criticised but are unable to prove scientifically their claims.
Like I said it’s more complex than you claim.

BTW the reason why granny left in 1916ish was because of the deteriorating ability for the land to support cattle at economic levels (the station went broke).
I am not 90+ years old despite what you may think. I have years experience in farm life and about 7 years experience in ecological revegetation and training how about you

Ah Dickie, you should have been a public servant. Easy peasy, just
force people to spend 100 Grand plus each on a bunker, that will solve
it.

Never mind all the other options, like leaving home for the day,
or even this stuff:

http://www.barricadegel.com/

I note the article in today's West Australian, mentioning that
the 2007 Victorian parliamentary inquiry into bushfires recommended
that prescribed burns should be tripled, but it was never done.

*I now honour you both with the One Star Hoppy badge for Chunder and an official entry into Australia’s Hall of Drongos*

Ah, when you scorn an old battle axe, she does not forget! Perhaps
that booby prize of a tray of anuses awarded to dickie recently, has left its scars :)

Examinator, you keep harping on about weeds, but conveniently forget
the forest litter.

"The people responsible for this can be found at the Federal and State Governments"
I agree with you PALE but there are top level beaurocrats too!*

ASymeonakis,
For once we agree. Terms of reference must to be watched very carefully... We need a 'Independent' Commissioner.

Watch enquiry staff who co ordinate, handle statements.

1.- I would advise anybody with something to say about fire breaks not being maintained – burning off fire break roads not being maintained to jump onto a talk back radio.

2.- Write it down and post it to Editors of news papers. Staff sometimes employed by beaurocrats has a way of shaving evidence.

Regardless or not if someone lit the fires had these services been upheld people would have got out..

If you bull doze and back burn it will keep that area under control for quite some time. So if there is a fire it’s controllable. It will only travel at a walking pace.
So the guilty beaurocrats should go to goal with the others.

*They Failed To save the life of our people!*

Yes- and the Animals too. The Cattle and surviving animals are walking around burnt and dazed. We need more people out there helping them also.


Do you realise that’s the first time ASymeonakis,you have ever said that. 'Our people'. Sad that something like this has to happen before people can come together.

Hey Belly, how are you doing holding up against Dickies lot. Listen any chance you could write a stack deck and fax it to police head quarters about that volunteer fire fighter you mentioned?

examinator,
You didn’t wish to debate me in the following three threads- despite opening two of them.

Trade Barriers Good for Australia?
Sea Kittens
Rules for OLO
Thank you Foxy for that Information.

So when you have the manners to do that I will respond to you.
BTW weeds are only 'part its overgrowth of fodder leaves dried ungrazed grass. You sound like you learnt in the same paddock as Dickie TBO Good age match too BTSOI.

Yabby How much Hay are MLA sending?

Dickie with out doubt you are the rudest poster in OLO.
Australian bushland has forest litter on the floor, sometimes very dry very deep.
Our trees drop fuel for the fire most need to grow, some need that fire to have seeds germinate, will die out without it.
Aboriginals burnt the land, often, for food, and game the new grasses that come after fire .
Cold fires, not heat driven fires, lets not get too emotional, or be blinded by our common grief.
Governments could not have stopped this, YES I charge them, fire brigades, emergency services with responsibility for the stupid stay and fight advice.
To people who did not know enough not to pull down the blinds too keep the heat out? but to watch every move the fire made?
Who did not know a hose and bucket was useless in a storm from hell?
Like pedophiles to schools fire bugs to fire brigades conservationist, some times radical, are attracted to national parks and wildlife.
Often in position to write policy.
Policy that forgets the metric tonne of fuel on Forrest floor fell to burn, slowly, not rot into food not turn gum Forrest to rain, it is as it is and we have not had the thousands of years Aboriginal had to retrain it , take it out of natures hands and remake it to do our will.
Dickie, a hundred thousand like her are the problem
Please have you been at a Maori cook out? some will die horrible deaths in those dug outs, some know nothing about survival, fire breaks, burn offs, clearing shrubs will save the house too.
Learn to truly live with the bush, not die in it, well meaning fools should re think can we change our country or change ourselves?

Oh dickies vehemence is stirring… the ad hominines fairly dripping from the keyboard…

Yabby, I do concur with your proposal the dickie’s boobie prize…

a tray of anuses and

no butts about it.

Foxy “We do the right thing, when it matters!”

I agree but

It is worthy of note, some of these fires occurred in shires where the local council had a no burn off, no clearing of dead wood, no cutting down of dead trees policy which was not limited to public land but also applied to private property.

People who would have otherwise done the “right thing” before these fires are now dead because of the manic attitude of green councilors ambushing the local authority and turning the bye-laws for their own twisted sense of pseudo-conservation”

We cannot do anything about hot weather

We cannot do anything to prevent lunatic arsonists

We can do something about the control and management of the primary a bush-fire fuel source, through forest management, controlled burns and clearing dead trees

I drive along the western highway several times a week… dead trees piled up, drying out, waiting for an arsonist or lightening strike because the land owners are not allowed to manage their land, by decree of some bureaucratic flunky with a fetish for pseudo-conservation.

Negligence is a tort on common law. Failure to manage publically held land, be it national park or local common, is negligence...

To put it another way, asbestos is a health hazard and has been removed from public buildings. Natural woodland waste (leaf fall) and dead trees, because of the combustibility, are a health hazard. Yet it is dictated by local councils to be left, unaddressed, unattended, unmanaged.

a lawyers field day is coming as survivors and dependents of the 200+ dead focus their justified anger on the negligence imposed by greenie councillors who followed their personal agendas against the larger interests of the electorate.

There have been a number of posts here saying oxygen starvation is a danger in bushfires, and in particular would be a real issue in a bunker. The more I through about it, the less likely it seemed. So I looked it up.

Yes oxygen starvation can be a problem for fires in a confined space were there is a limited amount of air available. Actually, it is usually more case of the fire staring for oxygen, and producing carbon monoxide. It is carbon monoxide poisoning that kills you.

Obviously, bushfires aren't in a confined space. Worse from the oxygen starvation theory's point of view - accompanying the current fires were raging winds which literally tore the veranda off a house moments before the fire hit. Oxygen starvation under those conditions? Not a chance.

As for Yabby's comment about 100 grand bunkers. The one on TV that saved a family was a single walled Besser brick affair about 1 meter across. It's door looked to be made out of wood. That would be fine, because even a solid wood door will take more than the 15 minutes a bushfire lasts to pass through. Put a cardboard door behind a zip-zag entrance to protect it from the radiated heat and I'd imagine it would be OK too. So Yabby, I'd say your pricing is out by a factor of 10 or so.

Its so cheap, I'd be tempted to pass a law saying every house built in a bushfire prone area must have one.

http://www.cfs.sa.gov.au/site/fire_safety/surviving_a_bushfire/personal_survival.jsp

rstuart,

I definitely would not recommend a wooden door of any kind on a fire bunker. Even if a firefront only takes 15 minutes to pass through, if the fire catches on the door, it could still burn down at the fire's leisure. Metal would always be safer and should be mandatory. Zig-zag bricks behind the door would be a good idea.

I suspect that the guy that was on TV last night was lucky. Even though he took the protection of his house seriously by spraying water on his house and shed during the night, if a serious firestorm decided to go through his property, he'd have no chance of retaining it. As his house and shed were still standing, this example probably wasn't a good test of whether the fire bunker worked or not.

Re being starved of oxygen, I'm sure I saw some interviews on TV of people who said they found it hard to breathe. Not sure though whether it was outdoors or indoors. It's possible that in a really big firestorm, oxygen is sucked in to feed to approaching wall of fire, while the fire leaps into the "hole", thus providing the rolling effect that is talked about. When compounded by the burning of eucalyptus leaves (which vapourises the oil in the leaves into a fine "mist" which then acts as a rolling gas bomb), the fire and heat generated might well be great enough to leave people, even in the outdoors, of feeling starved of oxygen. For a period of time, at least.

Dear Col,

I wasn't aware that some Councils had those kind of policies.

I thought that burning-off was an essential part of land
management practice, in the appropriate seasons.

I believe that the Royal Commission will address these matters
and pass appropriate laws enforceable under penalty, including
rural Councils.

By the way, the amount collected so far for the vitims of the
fires is approaching $40 million. And that is not counting the
contribution by State and Federal Governments or donations from
overseas, including one from Her Majesty.

RobP, "It's possible that in a really big firestorm, oxygen is sucked in to feed to approaching wall of fire."

No, its not possible. Oxygen doesn't get magically separated from the air by fire. Yes, air does rush towards the fire, thus causing winds like the ones that tore off the veranda. However it has its usual 21% of oxygen in it, and it is cool (meaning "air temperature") as well. Yes, the burning of the fire does strip the oxygen from it as it feeds on it. But it also heats the air up. Hot air rises, so the oxygen depleted air swept to where it can do no harm. It is in fact the rising of the hot, oxygen depleted air that causes the winds.

As for the burning wood door - who cares? Ever picked up a burning piece of wood? The stuff that isn't alight is cold. Wood isn't a good heat conductor, so unlike a steel door the inside isn't going to get too hot and thus radiate heat into the bunker. Nobody hiding in a concrete building is going to be seriously hurt by a wooden door burning.

I didn't see the bunker on the TV clearly, but the one thing I wonder about is whether it had a tin roof. I imagine a tin roof would remain intact during the fire, but unlike a wooden door it could get very hot very quickly - well into the red hot zone. I imagine a red hot roof could take the temperature of a small bunker impossible within 15 minutes. So I would make sure there was no metal exposed to the fire visible inside the bunker - not even a door.

As for people not being able to breath - you can breath oxygen depleted air perfectly well. It smells and feels completely normal. Air filled with smoke and other rubbish is a different story - as anybody who has been in the path of a camp fire burning the wrong way knows.

And it seems some here are think of a bushfire in terms of other fires they have experienced, although I notice self described fire fighters aren't among them. When you get burnt by a normal fire - a candle or camp fire, it is normally because you have touched something hot. Either the coals, or the heated air. Not so for a bad bushfire. By the time the central flames of a bushfire touch you, you are already dead.

It is the radiated heat that kills you - not the hot air or even contact with the flames themselves. If you are unlucky the smoke might get to you, but that is unlikely. If your doubt this, consider the pictures on TV of people running around just after the bushfire has passed.

The amount of radiated heat is unbelievable, to me anyway. For the Canberra bushfires that put it at 1.5MW per meter. To try and picture it, imagine a football field, covered with 2400 electric bar heaters so no grass is visible. Now stand the football field of heaters on its long side, so it projects 50m into the air. Now construct a corridor by putting a second football field of heaters alongside, facing it.

Those heaters will radiate the same amount of heat (1.5MW per meter) as the Canberra bushfires. Now then walk down that corridor, for 15 minutes. Anything burnable exposed to the radiated heat will spontaneously ignite. Anything - green grass, clothes, paint, your hair, your skin. It is so hot throwing water at the heaters has no effect, just as water bombing had no effect on the Canberra fires. The water evaporates before it can get to the seat of the fire.

To have a good chance of escaping from the fire get out of the way of the radiated heat. The one thing on your side it is only lasts 15 minutes. A concrete drain pipe is ideal. It heats up slowly, and is low to the ground so smoke it less of a problem because smoke is hot and rises.

rstuart,

That sounds like a more scientific explanation.

"Air filled with smoke and other rubbish is a different story - as anybody who has been in the path of a camp fire burning the wrong way knows."

It could be the folks on TV were finding it hard to breathe because of the smoke and other particles in the air, rather than a lack of oxygen. Sounds like a fair call.

"Nobody hiding in a concrete building is going to be seriously hurt by a wooden door burning."

Except for the fact that there is no longer any shielding from the radiant heat from the fire (assuming the firefront hasn't passed by then).

"So I would make sure there was no metal exposed to the fire visible inside the bunker - not even a door."

That's sound advice. In light of that, how about putting a wall of fire bricks out the front shielding the metal door (like the L-shaped wall out the front of a public toilet)? Alternatively, have a metal door on the bunker, but build its internal walls (made of firebricks)so that the heat has to go around a corner or two before it gets to the people inside.

A corrugated tin roof would be a bad idea, as you suggest. To alleviate this, if the shelter was built sturdily enough, how about hiring a bobcat and loading soil all around it and on the roof to effectively bury it? Maybe even get an old shipping container, bury that and put a row or two or firebricks out the front to protect the metal front door from direct radiant heat.

*So Yabby, I'd say your pricing is out by a factor of 10 or so.*

Ah, but this is not about you knocking something up, without shire
permission. This is about making the whole thing mandatory, as
suggested by Dickie.

For that to happen, it would have to comply to a standard, it would
have to comply with building codes etc. Every Govt employee whose
arse is on the line, would add their 5c worth, for they are not
paying for it all, house owners are paying. You'd be amazed
how quickly 100 Grand would be spent.

Now imagine if they allowed your bunkers and some people died in
them, as they were not up to scratch. No public servant would
risk his career on that, so the standards would be so high,
that people would be battling to afford them.

That American product that I linked to sounds promising, does
anyone know more about it? I've only read the promotion, not
heard the other side yet, if there is one. I'd like to hear
if anyone knows if it has been tested in Australia and if their
claims can be substantiated.

Foxy "I thought that burning-off was an essential part of land
management practice, in the appropriate seasons.

I believe that the Royal Commission will address these matters
and pass appropriate laws enforceable under penalty, including
rural Councils."

I had heard of the no-burn bye-laws and it was confirmed on 3AW from a caller this morning, who was at one stage trapped by burning trees but managed to escape... cannot remember which Shire he was in but he was, rightly very very angry and complaining about the laws which made illegal ALL and ANY clearing of dead trees from any land, public or private.

The accumulation of available fuel stocks, from leaf, twig and branch fall and dead trees, for a bushfire is a critical element in determining the severity and sustainability and resistence of a fire to the remedial / containment strategies of mere humans.

I would expect this to be toward the top of the list of things which must be fixed from the Royal Commission findings.

What sort of council do you have, Yabby? Mine, in the middle of a city, requires no council approval for a garden shed of less than 10 sq meters. 3m x 3m would be more than sufficient to house people for the 15 or 30 minutes required. Besser brick with their internal air gaps would be ideal for the walls. Probably a floor would be an overkill - dirt would be fine, but a slab gives you a solid foundation for the walls as well as a floor so you probably would not save much. The roof would be a problem - it has to not heat up during the fire and not be blown away by the wind, but I am sure a builder could come up with some simple solution.

I have no doubt the current disaster will create a wave of good intentions, just as ash Wednesday did, and just as the Canberra fires did. I am also fairly sure that government and people will remain the same, and so in 20 years time we still will have houses surrounded by fuel loads that will destroy them, just as happened this time.

I do doubt people will still be painting with the paint suggested in your link in 20 years time. A Besser brick bunker might cost 2-3 times more than a coat of your paint, but it would still be relatively cheap and it would be there forever. The only danger is it will be full of crap when the fire comes. You can't save people from themselves, I guess.

rstuart, you miss the point. If bunkers should become mandatory,
as Dickie suggests, then clearly there will have to be state building
codes and council approval of those mandatory bunkers. Those
mandatory bunkers would then not be your garden shed, but would
need approval by govt employees covering their arses against any
possible failure.

Now if a Govt employee has to choose between risking their career and
costing somebody else money, in my experience they nearly always
choose to protect themselves. Self interest prevails.

My argument was with Dickies suggestion of making bunkers mandatory,
thus having them comply with Govt building codes, not
with you fooling around with a garden shed or whatever.

Col Rouge I agree, with your every word in this thread!
Yabby also I too think bunkers will soon get governments involved and cost a great deal.
Some will still die in them, some may have trees fall over them, so close is the bush to some.
NSW calls its national parks and wild fire, yes not wild life.
The RC will support prevention is far better than bunkers.
You can control fire.
burn of, clear scrub build in safe places better homes, put your bunker in but do not invite the bush into your home, it will burn one day, thats its fate to burn so new growth can take place.
You do die in fires because you can not breath the heated air, wild fires jump over your head and seem able to stay just as hot when landing many meters away.
The oils in gum and tee trees and many other trees is very volatile, it becomes gas at super heated fires worse than petrol.
We will learn things that truly shock us from the Royal commission, fire fighters have warned of this, so have I for years, if only we had been wrong, we will not wait 50 years to see even more die in fires in one event if we do not change green dominated idiotic laws.
controlled burning is a friend of the bush, an act of conservation and life saving for humans and animals.

‘$40 million. –one from Her Majesty.’

Thanks for the update Foxy.

Guys just thinking .There could be another problem around the corner. - hope not.
Arson isn’t covered under insurance because it comes under the criminal code.

Many would be insured with Elders in regional areas. I hear through they were in trouble so here’s hoping they don’t leg it out the back paddock.

'A concrete drain pipe is ideal'.
rstuart,
Its certainty better than nothing.

Yabby
I can’t find the link to that product you posted.
If I ask you nicely, would you be a dear, and re posts it pls... I am pretty interested to check it out for our farms. Removed my rescue animals two weeks ago concerned about fire as nobody lives there.

I agree with not wanting Government to appoint local councils to overseas bunkers. It would be a nightmare for the people dealing with bearacrats

Why don’t we get onto Rudd to use some of our two hundred million to create a few jobs in the prisons and pay subs for buyers? Cheap Labour Belly we have to beat those unions some how :) just kidding.

While he is there he can get Rio Tinto and BHP back to work putting a pipe from QLD to flush out the Murray River

That’s creates jobs straight away and they already have the equipment

I hope
That the Royal commission is not a white wash event.
That it recommends prevention not ignoring the nature of the bush.
The crime of arson is given a nation wide review, standard sentencing , harsh penalty's.
That once more preventive burning is used to train fire fighters and protect the bush and it residents human and other.
I hate giving power to councils, all councils, would rather do away with them all.
But the RC should ensure homes are not built to kill.
Bunkers yes or no I do hope, gee I truly do, we understand the risks and prevent bush fires as front line first step.
NSW saw an inquiry into deaths of national parks fire fighters, it like many into deaths failed to change any thing.
Please let it rain in Victoria.
And please do not forget without change this is certain to happen again soon, maybe, please not this month.

Yabby “then clearly there will have to be state building
codes and council approval of those mandatory bunkers.”

Those are scary words….

“State building codes”

“Council approval”

“mandatory bunkers”

Three expressions of state authority to tell us how the dead hand of officialdom will decree how we will be allowed to live

The scary part

I a listening to the radio..

A few minutes ago I am hearing how the only house left standing after one fire belongs to a bloke who was fined $50,000 for bull dozing 247 trees to make a fire break and he does have another 40,000 trees on his property –

he feels vindicated and is pondering applying for the rescinding the judgment and return of the penalty monies.

So some paid flunky of the state would have issued the demand to prosecute this land owner.

I wonder if it might be the same flunky of the state who will be supervising the bunker design?

If it is we have history to guide us to the complete waste of space such paid flunkies represent

and if it isn’t it will be some alternate flunky which floated up from the shallow end of the gene pool -

You could build a bunker under a swimming pool out of reinforced asbestos lined steel and it would still burn like spilt petrol on a 40 degree day.

As to any suggestion from dickie,

following dickies unrestrained ad hominines on this thread, I fear any “wisdom” which might be sourced from that “well of knowledge” is going to be pre-tainted with the poison of the regurgitated toxins which harness the qualities of dioxin after its being thrown through a concentrator.

I would not trust or put any faith in any thing, on any topic dickie managed to scrawl across this or any other thread.

Now some of you will hate me for this but we must face facts.

Firstly though, my heart goes out for the surviving victims of the fires and I wish them well.

In reality, all insured property owners accross the country suffer from an event such as this as all policies are raised in order to off-set the payouts for the rebuilding of the homes and possesions lost.

It appears obvious that even if a 30m buffer zone were to be allowed around each home site, whereby the undergrowth was cleared, many if not most of these homes would still have been lost, perhaps even most of the lives.

It is my opinion that if anyone chooses to re-build in these areas then they must take on some of the risk themselves in the way of high excesses on thier insurance premiums. That's assuming that any insurance company will re-insure them.

As cold hearted as this may sound, everyone must take resonable steps to mitigate thier losses and building a home, on the top of a heavily forrested hillside is not what I would call taking reasonable precausions to prevent this situation from re-occuring.

Let's face it, houses are not meant to be built on the top of a hill surrounded by bush as it is a disarster waiting to happen.

Please don't take this the wrong way as I have no problem assiting these people, this time!

'I hope That the Royal commission is not a white wash event...'

Belly, that’s what they are for ,damage control, for authorities.

This time, we should run an alternative public enquiry right on location to compare evidence. Give the media some comparison.

'I hate giving power to councils,'
Us too!

Please let it rain in Victoria.

Amen to that Belly.



Col Rouge has posted a wise insight into this whole mess in agreement to yet another of Yabbys rare insights:)

Yes they are scary words….

“State building codes”

“Council approval”

“mandatory bunkers”

*Three expressions of state authority to tell us how the dead hand of officialdom will decree how we will be allowed to live.*

*So some paid flunky of the state would have issued the demand to prosecute this land owner.*

*I wonder if it might be the same flunky of the state who will be supervising the bunker design.*
All too true Mr Rouge

rehctub
We could never hate you . You know you are our preferred PM.
I have already, pointed out the insurance companies, have a leg out, if this is declared a crime scene.
Many would be insured with Elders. Most in fact. I fear some may have big problems ahead involving insurance pay outs TBO.

One things clear, these fires involve, more than one fire bug- and they are organised.


This was shown to be a hoax
http://cracker.com.au/politics-forum/sheikh-haron-after-bushfire-claims-and-takes-responsibility/240509/thread

But what about some of our 'own extremist nutters going about declairing the fires were because of abortion.

Anyway I guess its kind of in poor taste now to speculate while people are suffering- and animals.

All we can do now is help by giving blood, food, supplies hay and practicle assistance.

Where are the AFP I wonder as its already been declaired a Crime scene.

I might contact Elders head office and some others to request a written statement that they intend to pay out regardless or not if its put down to Arson.

Cheers rehctubn always nice to hear from you.

Here is some more of what caused these fires

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/green-ideas-must-take-blame-for-deaths-20090211-84mk.html?from=top5

from the article "Governments appeasing the green beast have ignored numerous state and federal bushfire inquiries over the past decade, almost all of which have recommended increasing the practice of "prescribed burning". Also known as "hazard reduction", it is a methodical regime of burning off flammable ground cover in cooler months, in a controlled fashion, so it does not fuel the inevitable summer bushfires."

"The contractors were out working on the fire lines. They put in containment lines and cleared off some of the fire trails. Two weeks later that fire broke out, but unfortunately those trails had been blocked up again [by greens] to turn it back to its natural state "

if you are pro-green an support the unilateral action of self appointed environmental activist / vandals...

you are supporting killers,

I see no difference between these activists and arsonists who light fires... they are equally to blame for the consequences of their actions.

and as for government.. I see we will now get the emergency warning system which was successfully tested after the 2004 fires...

but it is at a fairly high price of 200 + dead from these fires,

many of whom would not have died if the state government incompetence had not been aggrevated by bungling and paper shuffling or crippled by political vacillation.

Gertrude here is the website:

http://www.barricadegel.com/

I don't know if this stuff is even sold in Australia or has been
tested here. They once showed some demos on Australian tv and they
were pretty impressive, but being a skeptic, I want to hear all the
bad news about the product...

As to Elders Insurance, AFAIK they only flog somebody elses product
and don't run their own insurance company, but that might have
changed over the years.

Even insurance companies simply play a numbers game. If the risk
adds up to being too great, they use reinsurance to cover their
arses

All the talk of revenge eg Death Penalty and hyperactive Telephone early warnings will make not one iota of difference .
The problem is the combustable load on the forest floor , nothing will save anyone from fire until this issue is addressed .
It will never be addressed because the people like the forrest the way it is , eg the more load the better it looks !! Or so they think what they don't know is this , if the forrest was control burnt on a regular basis it would support more : wildlife , native grasses , flora , fungi , insects etc in other words the forrest would return to the way it was pre white man . And safty would prevail just like the Aboriginal people found out .

Yabby,
I was answering Nicky's point.
In context you are correct but it isn't always the greenies’ fault.
I’ve been trying for 5 years to get the council to do a cold burn or clean up in our area. I've even got the support of SES who have assessed a near by gully as holding 16tonnes per hectare, well above the sensible level 2-3 tph.
With that much undergrowth (including Lantana and weeds being 80% of it etc) to burn would be too dangerous.

Therefore by hand is the only other option.
This would take more manpower ($) than the council is prepared to spend given that the public consider other projects more important. ($16m on a performing arts centre)

Also my 40 hectare spot is one smallish patch under the council control.
This same public throw their garden prunings/waste in the bush adding to the weed and fire load. Then become violet to anyone who tries to stop them. As a bush carer I have been abused, threatened had my house egged, cars attacked simple because part of my responsibility was to clean the area up fence off sensitive areas Ensure fire access is clear and reveg.

Some citizens store their illegally bush obtained fire wood blocking there fire access tracks during summer.

On one side the farmers were the most hostile clearing their land and pushing it onto council bush reserve.

I have caught 4 groups of boys have set fires in the bush. In one case I had to go to court … The father and brother buttonholed my son at the train station and threatened our family….the police can’t do anything until they do something and then we need proof.

The added problem was that in the last 2 years wind and conditions weren’t right to attempt a burn off with houses so close.

Old retiring farmers want to make a killing by selling their land to developers who build regardless of the probability of problems including devastating bush fires.
No one owns the problem. All will scream victim when a fire happens.
Solutions gratefully received

Sorry shazbaz 001 some people made the forest what it is, 30 years ago it was burnt in colder months and past fire storms fed in hot weather on unburnt ground.
Now most ground is unburnt, rechtub you did not say anything most who understand the issue did.
Fire trails, well once they worked in part, no green group would not fight if we made enough fire breaks to work.
How can you tell the difference between radical greens and terrorists?
Both murder innocents for beliefs most do not share.
Remember my national parks and wildfire slur?
Strange as it may seem the idiotic actions of that group give other idiots reason to become fire bugs!
Some proudly boast of lighting up the parks, as a result of the tragic event, and those that are coming, we may see less fire bugs, but we will not stop them, every one sent to prison is a help.
It has rained in my part of NSW today ,we are safe for a while, not forever, homes built in the bush are going to be tomorrows tragic news.

ShazBaz001,


Welcome to this forum- Your first post.

How did you hear of OLO


Yabby,
*I was answering Nicky's point.
As a bush carer I have been abused, threatened had my house egged,* cars
examinator.

Ooops!
Nicky has not posted on this thread- ...

examinator.?

Col Rouge: << if you are pro-green an support the unilateral action of self appointed environmental activist / vandals...

you are supporting killers,

I see no difference between these activists and arsonists who light fires... they are equally to blame for the consequences of their actions. >>

That's pretty rabid, even for Col. I've noticed that the redneck/denialist lobby has taken the opportunity to try and put the boot into the "green" movement, probably to deflect attention from the likelihood that this disastrous conflagration will be seen retrospectively as the moment when climate change began to cost actual lives in Australia.

For the record. the Greens aren't opposed to vegetation management using fire:

<< The Australian Greens want:

[...]

effective habitat management, including ecologically appropriate use of fire. >>

http://greens.org.au/policies/detailed/biological_diversity

Of course, the business-as-usual denialist crew are shrieking hysterically, pointing the finger everywhere but where it belongs. I expect that we will experience severe climatically caused events like wildfires and flood increasingly in the years to come.

Expect much shrieking from the denialists, until they either capitulate in the face of reason and evidence, or simply die out.

Bring on that epitaph, Col Rouge.

Examinator is one of the few sensible voices. Yabby made some thought provokind contributions, as did rstuart.

ColR goes off the deep end again: 'if you are pro-green an support the unilateral action .....you are supporting killers, I see no difference between these activists and arsonists who light fires... they are equally to blame for the consequences of their actions.'

Greenies and arsonists are to blame, nobody else need to take any responsibility. Call off any kind of enquiry, ColR got it figured out.

Could it just be possible that after such a long drought and the fact that there are so many more people living on the fringes of our cities contributed to the very heavy toll?

Absolutely we need to have an enquiry. People will continue to live out in the bush. This kind of thing is bound to happen again sooner or later.

Would back burning/controlled burning really have made all the difference? Once going Australia's bush burns real well. Ever seen a Eucalypt burning? Forget about forrest litter. I've lived in the bush. A bush fire is a scary thing.

Yes anansi Gums often explode if the burn is hot enough, as in crown (tree top) fires. I would have said terrifying.
(Thanks for your comment)
To me it is beholden on the individual to make it his business to understand their environment. Would you walk the dark back streets of lesser suburbs alone at night, leave doors open when you go out? Of course not it’s too risky to take safety/security for granted.
The bush is not different like wild animals it will bite the foolish, the ignorant or the unwary.

Let’s be clear I love the bush/jungle they’re fascinating places a set of worlds (habitats) each reacting with the other and their inhabitants.
Even a rudimentary understanding of these will tell you of pending problems. The signs are always there.
e.g. Koalas rarely drink water if they do it usually means the gums, are stressed and have turned on their defences making oil. Much the same reason a koala can’t stay in the same trees for long and has to move.
Absence of birds (and their calls), insects even ants going down into the earth conversely ants going higher can give you warning that the conditions are set for a big fire or big rain respectively. At these times you need to prepare, be on your guard.

It amazes me that people think that living near or in bush is safe and all caution or prudent behaviour is a city thing, an inconvenience an interruption to their busy lives.

Even today I keep memories important papers so that a moments notice can be thrown into the car and away. Likewise I have a cupboard with survival necessities…see earlier posts for list. We have exit routes (multiple) planed and even a bolt hole if it is too late. Looking for top to toe coverings for everyone when a fire is coming is simply too late.
Paranoid? Nah just prepared
I've seen too many fires/floods too close up to be cavalier about living near or in the bush.

Anansi maybe you too are part of the problem, sorry but just maybe.
You say I have lived in the bush, have you then seen a winter burn off creep slowly unattended for days ?
Have you any idea how fire fighters are now confronted with leaf litter so deep the Forrest floor burns enough to kill some trees forever?
I C J Morgan did not target the group known as greens but the idiots who must be ignored , we can never silence them.
I have no doubts, we can never change the bush to suit us, should not try, but look at the people tucked right into the bush, here in NSW even the dead trees lineing twisting bumpy tracks in and out of those homes.
Did people see that survivor last night? the one who hide in his bunker?
That his home survived, that he had clear ground around his home but suffered from heat and hot air?
Fire storms need fuel, once they have it they can not be stopped until fuel runs out.
Removing that fuel has to be our first defense, not to kill people Forrest, and wild life, humans must change the bush will not.

PALEIF I am returning from past OLO .

Ground cover makes the burn too hot and damages the trees ask any sawyer . In most cases elimination of ground fuel will stop the heads igniting , however the ambient Temp this year in particular has been unexceptionally high coupled with very low rainfall .
Fire is the friend of the forest , gum seeds , wattle seeds etc will not germanate without fire . Claims are being made that back burnt forests still catch on fire , however somewhere something must have elevated the temperature of the heads to evaporate / release the oil from the leaves to enable the oil to ignite . Hot air from ground fire can't elevate fast in dense forests hence the extraordinary damage to the trees seen on TV .
Ask any experienced Bushman , he will tell you , first the ground fire heats the head , then you will see a thin grey cloud shimmering immediately above the tree , then an ember will ignite the cloud , woof you can feel the radiant heat on your face ! That is the sequence management has to brake by back burning .
The rapid accent of the burning eucy gas draws up embers with it , embers the frame of the leaf are very light , still glowing making landfall a quarter mile downwind they set alight the forest litter this is the dynamic of a gum forrest fire Maelstrom .

CJ Moron... my words were based on reading the article I referenced and reports from TV

Those "Activists" who deliberately try to reverse and frustrate the efforts of those who construct fires breaks are as

as guilty and culpable for the deaths of innocent men, women and children as those who go around deliberately lighting fires.

My regret is the activists could not have given their lives instead of some poor family trapped by the infernos of the activists making.

the Epitaph for CJMoron is...

here lies a rover,

a dog which in posts pasts has been observed licking himself...

I am sure a few folk can still remember you in that context.

Anansi - are you defending them - if I had my way I would see all the self appointed activists stuck on a barren island in the middle of BAss straits and left to fend for themselves....

And I can think of several thousand people who died, have lost loved ones and property in this disaster which could have been less but for the actions of environmental vandals who would agree with me.

Like Belly suggested.... if you are here to critise aspects of the solution... Maybe you are just part of the problem.

anyway criticism from the corners of the resident moron and Anansi come as nothing new... in fact I might question the sense of my own posts if they posted different,

Just paddle in the shallow end of the gene pool CJM and Anansi and dont go into the woods to play.

examinator
"We have exit routes (multiple) planed...thrown into the car and away"
Do you think many people use their brain LIKE YOU? If the government adviced them to stay in their homes and fight for them they did!
Instead to use their brain they followed authorities's advices, they followed experts advices.
Most people react in the risks with this way. The authorities knew, or had to knew that people followed their advices"stay and fight"
It was their duties to give them the right advices and rescue them from the fires.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

I see no difference between these activists and arsonists who light fires... they are equally to blame for the consequences of their actions. !

You are forgetting one important group. That in those who choose to live in these places knowing full well the dangers associated with their choices. Prevention is ALWAYS better than cure?

Don't forget, one of the worst problems associated with serious bush fires are 'fire balls'. We saw them in the Sydney fires, back in the 90's I think. These can travel up to 700 metres and land on a house. Nothing can stop that and, the tops of gum trees hold far more fuel than what is on the ground.

Let's face it. You will not be attacted by a shark if you don't enter the water. Your kids will not commit a crime if they are always cared for and watched every day. Kids won't drown in a pool if they are properly supervised.

If you are aware of the dangers and still take the risk then you must be prepared for the concequences. As sad as it is!

*PALEIF I am returning from past OLO *.

ShazBaz001,

:} Is that B.C.

*Would you walk the dark back streets of lesser suburbs alone at night, leave doors open when you go out? Of course not it’s too risky to take safety/security for granted.
examinator,*

Not if I were you :) &#61514;- especially, being as confused, as you are, about whom your meant to be posting to. In that state of mind why anything you could happen. Gee you even forget who ‘you’ are and walk under a bus.

Anansi maybe you too are part of the problem, sorry but just maybe.

Belly

Could be, belly could be.

Yabby
Thanks for that. I haven’t read it all as yet.

The only draw back I see so far is I think you have to put it on just before a fire.
That’s pretty hard to judge in Australia especially when they are being lit on purpose. Still there’s a lot of interesting info.

I have written to the company and intend to read the rest in bed tonight.
I noted that their Parks and safety and local fire men assist the elderly by doing their homes. It looks like its been used as a fire break for animals as well.

Have you read all of it?

This could be a bit of a worry. See: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2151#45703

Fractelle's last post was timestamped 4/02/2009 7:50:22 AM in her comment history. That was the Wednesday before the Victorian fires. I am not aware of any more specific indication of where she was living than that provided in the link above, which indicates just 'the ranges'.

Has anyone heard anything with respect to Fractelle?

She did indicate she was experiencing some health problems around 15 January, which was followed by around ten days during which she did not post, so perhaps she has had a recurrence of whatever ailed her, but I wonder.

Forrest Gumpp,

Nice of you to be concerned and observant as well.

Er , Perhaps Dickie could help with that question:

Yabby

I forgot to inform you I contacted Elders about the fire insurance.

At this stage they said they intend to pay out on all claims even if it was shown to be caused via Arson.

Let`s hope so.

Looks like they need lots of plumbers and water wants and caravans asap


Poor buggers. Gee I wish we could do more.

"Did people see that survivor last night? the one who hide in his bunker?
That his home survived, that he had clear ground around his home but suffered from heat and hot air?"

Belly,

I saw that story - it was very interesting and informative.
He wanted to a construct a bunker that would survive a bomb and so put in an old shipping container above ground next to his house which he coated with cement. When the fire got too hot and/or the smoke too great, he retreated to the bunker, poking his nose out every so often to see if it was safe. When it was, he put out spot fires that started up in his yard etc and probably saved his house.

Yabby: "there will have to be state building codes and council approval of those mandatory bunkers."

Yes. But you say it like it is a bad thing. Mostly, the building codes, design rules and all sorts of other Government enforced standards are good things. I recall having some plumbing work done by a plumber around my place once. Yes, it had to be council approved. Yes, we had to pay for the council inspector to check the work. He put a bung in the pipes, filled them up with water, and then came back the next day to verify they didn't leak. Only they did leak. The leak would have been raw sewage. And the plumber was forced to fix his shoddy work before the raw sewage had a chance to leak into ground water.

That said, there is always bad eggs, and yes our laws contain a few of them. The proposed mandatory bi-annual inspections of pool fences here in Queensland springs to mind. I think the piece of legislation should be titled "the pool maintenance contractors employment act".

But on the whole design rules are a good thing. In the case of bunkers, they will ensure no enterprising young lad starts selling cheap ones made of "fireproof cardboard", or some such rubbish.

It's hearbreaking. I went for my usual run last night
and the air was thick with smoke. Fires are getting
closer and closer to Melbourne. They caught an arsonist in a
nearby suburb. Healesville Sanctuary is in danger...

Watching the ABC many questions remained unanswered.
I heard about a man being fined by his Council, $100,000
for cutting down trees near his house. It bankrupted
him, yet his house was the only one that survived the bushfire.

People were talking about having some sort of fire-alerts
in areas at risk. What ever happened to the fire-lookout
towers that used to exist in the past?

As for Fractelle - if anyone knows what's happened to her,
could they please let us know?

Let's pray that she's allright.

RobP
Yep I saw him. The power lead hole was a flaw in design. He was lucky, all those flammables/ sources of toxic gasses in there too, so close to where he was sheltering.
The power needed to be under ground I think. He would have been wise to have a separate bunker for him self.
But in the light of our recent discussion perhaps under ground bunkers might not be such a bad idea. One cautionary note fire asphyxiated animals were found in a 10 meter concrete drain as were a US family taking refuge in a large above ground concrete tank with a hatch. Clearly it’s an engineering issue, I erred oops.

"One cautionary note fire asphyxiated animals were found in a 10 meter concrete drain as were a US family taking refuge in a large above ground concrete tank with a hatch."

examinator,

I'm wondering what caused these. Was it smoke inhalation, in which case the door seal of any shelter is also a very important part of its design.

I also saw Q&A last night where the idea was put forward that bush communities at least have a communal fire bunker where everyone can congregate as a last resort. Sounds like a good idea so long as it's well designed. I was thinking what if someone comes into the bunker late. There would need to be multiple doors to stop those already inside being exposed to the heat and smoke.

One final rave to bring some of the “let’s find a culprit” curmudgeons into perspective.

Fact: “Greenies” like every one else come in a many different flavours. They all have one thing in common protecting it not destroying it.
Fact: sometimes is counter productive even dangerous to burn off.
Fact: Conditions have to be right if not oops catastrophe ….take the business people who burned off rather than bury/compost in the Stirling SA tip that caused the biggest fire in the Adelaide hills ever seen. Can we now claim business is solely responsible for fires?
Fact: there is any number of ignition sources…Broken bottles left by tourists to the area or idiot residents. One was welding in the fire brake. (Illegal)
Fact: camp fires not properly extinguished.
Fact: A discarded cigarette end by passing smokers (drivers) (I’d like 10Cents that a neighbouring paddock has been set a light by the above) (Illegal)
Fact: Exhaust pipes from bush- bashers on dirt bikes (including children.)(Illegal)
Fact: Badly maintained Quad bikes. (Illegal)
Fact: Lightening strikes.
Et al

NB Fire bugs can only set a fire that will be catastrophic if the conditions are already there. Someone Else’s Problem (SEP) attitude?

NB. Also: the hostilities I’ve faced aren’t unique the culprits are usually from those armchair, “culprit seeking” know it alls. Curmudgeons who are either overly simplistic (ignorant), or covering for their inactivity/lack of responsibility.
As an alleged greenie I and 265 other Bush carers in our Council area spend *our* time trying to maintain the balance in the bush to avoid disasters like the Vic fires. We spend varying amounts of time actually working in the bush and doing council sponsored courses so we know what we’re doing. The work is planned and overseen by onsite experts in the field(s).
Most of us simply ask the public if they don’t want to be involved or don’t care that they observe the laws, don’t be selfishly obstructionist and don’t deliberately undo our work

Examinator “Fact: sometimes is counter productive even dangerous to burn off.”

Yes but the purpose of burning off is well known and can be organised at the correct time of year. The accumulation of forest debris is not the result of a single season but decades of undue interference by green lobbyists following their selfish, twisted, maniacal objectives.

“there is any number of ignition sources”

But the ignition source would be irrelevant if the fuel source was diminished by prior and regular back burning

“As an alleged greenie I and 265 other Bush carers in our Council area spend *our* time trying to maintain the balance in the bush to avoid disasters like the Vic fires”

Have trumpet will blow or do is that a Mother Theresa complex ?

“Most of us simply ask the public if they don’t want to be involved or don’t care that they observe the laws, don’t be selfishly obstructionist and don’t deliberately undo our work”

So, I assume you agree with this “curmudgeon” that the actions of green activists in tampering with fire breaks carries with it a criminal culpability

Foxy
"I heard about a man being fined by his Council, $100,000
for cutting down trees near his house. It bankrupted
him, yet his house was the only one that survived the bushfire"
The authorities not only did not do the right things to protect the houses from fires but they panished a person who tried to save his house in the future, by cutting trees around it.
The authorities had to block people to biuld houses in the forest or if they gave permision to biuld houses they had to put some basic rules to protect the houses from fires.
Of cause the big problem is not the houses and properties and the animals BUT BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE DIED FROM THE FIRES.
The authorities had plenty time to rescue the people from the high risk areas but they did not do it. THIS IS THE BIG PROBLEM.
Foxy
"My husband and I went to our bank early this morning to make
a donation to the Fire Relief Fund"
The donations are memorable but they can not solve the problem. We must find the sourse which left it happened,
We must sent a very strong, clear mesage to authorities.
WE DO NOT ACCEPT ON 21st CENTURY AUSTRALIANS TO DIE FROM FIRES.
If they do not go home now, we will sent them home in the comming elections!
The people are over the political parties and ideologies.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Forrest, Foxy, I solute you both, thanks for being the people you are may she be alright and back soon.
That bunker was a death trap! had his house burnt down he would be dead.
examinator noticed the fuel drums too, what else did he keep in their? poisons could be anything.
Workplace safety laws forbid storage of such in containers that can not breath if they breath fire can enter.
Remember how he suffered from heat? hot air? if that house 6 feet away had burnt so would he.
Under ground bunkers, no not communal ones time is not available, may work, prevention is better.
Every Royal commission from 1939 fires till now has highlighted the need to reduce Forrest litter by burning.
This one will too, we may not act even now, more will die if we do not.
After controlled burns, if hot days follow, fallen burnt leaves and bark, [our trees shed bark so it will burn] can carry a big fire, a need to watch that time exists.
Fire balls do not form unless enough fuel exists.
Houses on hillsides in timber country will burn down one day believe me fires travel uphill very fast prevention is the first and second option bunkers? last desperate defense.

Foxy everyone
I thought you might like some news direct from some people in the fire. Despite their position and without power these wonderful people somehow managed to post this as a thanks.
How typical of our country people.

http://www.whisperingacres.com.au/bushfire1.html

Also it seems a Gold coast Man has the Answer for fire flood and weather warnings.
It calls you either on your house phone or mobile and warns you of fire floodor any emergency.
It also is able to read people moods to see if they can cope.
It asks you at the same time if you require assistance.

I am sure there will be more about it. I will post more as it comes to hand.

The Gold coast Mayor gave it the inventors of the year award last year.

Heres the sad part- Had the Government had listended..

It is ready to install within three months.

*The authorities had plenty time to rescue the people from the high risk areas but they did not do it. THIS IS THE BIG PROBLEM.*

We will agree to disagree on that one. The authorities don't need
to hold your hand for life. It is your responsibility to paddle
your own canoe. If you live in a high risk fire area, it is for
you to inform yourself and help yourself.

The role of Govt might well be to help those who cannot help themselves, too old, too frail, too young etc.

But don't expect Govt to change your nappies for you.

Col Rouge: << So, I assume you agree with this “curmudgeon” that the actions of green activists in tampering with fire breaks carries with it a criminal culpability >>

Col's not a curmudgeon - rather, he fancies himself as a bit of a wit. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to say exactly what kind of wit I think he is at OLO.

His idiotic and hysterical bleating - about "green activists" being somehow responsible for the unprecedent firestorm that Victoria has just experienced - seems to me to be concordant with the shrieking denialism expressed by the ideologically challenged 'business as usual' crowd in response to Australia's first mass deaths caused by global warming.

I hope they live long enough to have to eat their words.

Yabby
"The authorities don't need to hold your hand for life"
We taxpayers pay millions of dollars for managers, experts and sub-experts. If they said them to stay there and fight for their home, and properties and if the people trusted and respected the authorities they did.
We do not play with people's lifes.
If the authorities can not give the right advices for so simple and basic problems then why we have them? Why we ,as taxpayers and as citizens, we give them so much power and we waste on them so much money? Your theory is similar with Republicans in USA about the Hurricain Katrina in New Orleans. But you know people's answer to Republicans in the last elections!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

That was a good post yabby, how realistic is it to ask governments local state and federal to save us from our selves?
Unlike many I find C J Morgan one of the better posters, he may find me a pain in the butt.
I however blame radical activists for not letting us manage the bush.
We all should be, maybe are, conservationists, but like every thing in life we all get it wrong some times, all of us.
My mind as I tell of my history of fighting fires, is full of memory's of fire storms.
But they stopped at fire break trails, many of them, they did jump, once over my head and surround me with fire.
Our fires are worse than past fires, we have lost great forests to these fires, not all trees regenerate.
Ludwig has stayed away, he has knowledge of trees and the bush, Even if his ideas are the opposite of mine I would have liked to hear them.
Right now NSW can count its self lucky, we have not had the continuing heat, we do have the fuel, more than most can remember waiting if not this year next to bring death to our forests, animals people and parts of the forests too.

Yabby
"The role of Govt might well be to help those who cannot help themselves, too old, too frail, too young etc"
Do you mean thegovernment rescued the"too old, too frail, too young etc people?
Do you mean the people saw that the government was moving the old, frail, young people but they stayed there because they wanted to become...souvlaki!
In big problems invidual's worries and responsibilities passes to government shoulders!
If the government is weak, if its solusions is not good enouph, (about two hundends deaths from fires!) then in the next elections you know what happen!
PEOPLE'S INTERESTS ARE ABOVE POLITICAL PARTIES INTERESTS, WHEN THE GOVERNMENT FAILED WE SENT IT HOME, WHEN THE PARTY CLOSE ITS EYES, WE KICK IT TO WOKE UP!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Yabby – agree with you it is better not to rely on the state to hold your hand or take care of your interests…

Lets look at the score card

Private individuals – raise over $50million in less than a week and donate tonnes and tonnes of goods without thinking about it

While

Government argues over the tiny cost of the emergency system it proved back in 2005 and

Centrelink send out 1400 letters (to charred and melted post boxes), telling people to find some identification which Centrelink will accept as proof of their existence before “bothering” them (Centrelink) in their important work of state….. bureaucracy at its best, taking care to find ways not to spend the taxes taken from bushfire victims and philanthropic Australians alike.




CJMoron “idiotic and hysterical bleating - about "green activists"”

Which part of the newspaper article upon which I based my criticism do you disagree with?

fire breaks are built for a purpose, interfering with their effectiveness should be seen as a criminal puruit no different to if the green activists had lit the fire.. worse…

that and protesting back-burns built up the fuel load, without which the best efforts of any arsonist would have been less deadly than they were.



But you defend the tree-hugging twits… you would


Like you would find their company more to your liking than real people anyway…. All out there with the woodland pixies….



“Unfortunately I'm not allowed to say exactly what kind of wit I think he is at OLO.”

Must be frustrating… all those words locked inside and not the wit to know how to use them…

ah well, back to chewing on your bone, Rover.

CJ,
It would appear that my frustration of my last post was misunderstood as grape shot.
My intention was to point out that finding scape goats is both as counter productive as it is diversionary.
As I implied about the fire in the Adelaide hills focusing on that it was started by business men … is patently myopic rubbish. The fire was started by a few * ignorant irresponsible individuals* (they should have known better) the fact that they were business people is irrelevant. Likewise focusing on labelling those who interfered with fire breaks as ‘greenies’ is curmudgeonly, malicious mischief.
They are more accurately described as myopically irresponsible fools. This focus insults those of us that work to maintain an environmental balance including trying to ‘maintain an environmental balance’ (and mitigate catastrophic fires) from a position of real scientifically based knowledge/ strategies. I am only one.

I would also reiterate earlier my earlier posts that bush maintenance is far more complex than most individuals believe.

Also cold burns are today, because of white man’s intervention (again weeds and living close to these areas, old farming practices etc) are far more difficult/complex affairs. They require more careful consideration than simply appropriate weather circumstances. Weed species growths are thicker and usually burn hotter than native undergrowth thus risking a ‘common sense’ cold burn turning into a catastrophic totally destructive hot burn.

Environmentally, many Australian species need cold burns to propagate about every five to ten years (area /species dependant). Hot burns and more regular cold burns tend to both favour weeds and negatively affect native forests = higher/hotter fire risks.

It is almost irresponsibly naïve to draw a direct simplistic correlation between aboriginal fire stick farming and very changed environmental circumstances in much of Victoria today. The CSIRO have said as much.
There should be discussion on this tragedy but when we’re specifically discussing causes let’s at least be reasoned. We owe at least that to the victims and to ensure we work towards reducing its impact next time (and there will be a next time this is Australia)

Antonios, you can't compare New Orleans with this situation as you
tried to do, for in that case your conclusion would be very wrong.

The American Govt had a dedicated, well resourced emergency agency,
which did nothing days into what was a national emergency. That
is certainly not the case here in this case. Every level of Govt
has been brought in to deal with this crisis, quite different to
this situation.

Sadly people seem to need pain to learn and these fires might for
once make it plain to everyone what happens, when forests of gum
trees are left to build up huge amounts of litter and no firebreaks.
Add some wooden houses into the mix, along with a stinking hot
day and strong winds and wooosh, you have your answer.

Up until this point, local, state and federal Govts have still
been squabbling about the need for regular controlled burning.
Now they might have their answer for all to finally accept.

But Govt can't be waiting on your doorstep to rescue you, if on
a stinking hot day, with those kinds of winds, you are too stupid
to pay any attention and make no effort to rescue yourself.

The day before those fires, it was even mentioned on tv over here
in WA, that Victoria would have a crisis day due to weather
conditions. If people live in those kinds of areas, they are free
to listen to the radio, look out the windows for signs of smoke
and get the hell out if they feel they are endangered. Govt
can legislate for good judgement, people are still responsible for
their own actions.

Foxy,
I hope fractelle is ok too. I hope everyone is safe.

Sadly because of it proclivity for bush fires Cherry Gardens/ Corromandel CFS had a series of sirens that sounded stages in bush fires as long a go as 17 years.
First siren meant a fire, second meant prepare to leave or fight except for the time I helped in the station I never heard the third I was always long gone. To me that's the reason for insurance companies.

RobP,
Since our original comments I've spoken to some people who would know what’s best and they suggested that a tight fitting door would be critical. The suggestion was that a bunker dug into a side of a hill with a meter or so of earth over and around the bunker. It was also suggested to be a substantial distance between the flames and the door. He suggested a tunnel with a bend. I didn't ask about an air lock but that would seem a good idea because of differences in pressure O2 being sucked out when a door is opened. Bob suggested this sucking of O2 would only be problems if the fire was extremely close and therefore perhaps the airlock would be unnecessary for a family bunker all in before the fire was that close to make a difference.
In Cherry Gardens they have noted that double glazed windows and shutters do tend to stop breakage due to differences in air pressures in and out of doors
Or something like that Bob is an engineer as well as a area CFS commander and sometimes he goes off into engineerese and becomes untranslatable to mere mortals. Our regional SES commander (different state) was concerned about speed of fires for area/town bunkers to be practical.
Cheers examinator

Dear examinator,

Thanks for your concern about Fractelle.

I pray that we'll hear from her before too long.

Where we live - there's a thick fog surrounding
everything, and the smell of smoke permeates
the air. I trust that the Royal Commission will
supply some of the answers as to how we can avoid
situations like these in the future.

My big concern is arsonists - how do you stop them?

cont'd

I forgot to add, a girlfriend of mine disagrees
with putting arsonists in jail. Her solution
was to microchip them (as we do with do our pets),
and then round them up prior to the fire-season,
and keep them temporarily in jail, out of doing harm until
the fire-season passes...

She wasn't joking!

Foxy, arson is only one part of the story and solving it,
which you never will, as there always be nutcases around,
will not bring a solution.

In WA for instance, a major cause of fires are power poles.
I read the Victorian Farm Weekly and one of the major fires
there too, was in fact started by a crook power pole.

Then you have hobby farmers who decide to do some welding
or angle grinding near long dry grass, etc. You will never
avoid bad judgement, even if you catch every arsonist.

I heard today that Victoria had similar fires in the 1850s
and 1930s, but just alot less people living in those hills.
So it can't all be blamed on climate change either, as
CJ feels compelled to do.

One thing I've noticed is that when they show all these
burnt houses, what is usually left standing are the
brick chimneys. Why don't more people build in double
brick?

Examinator "My intention was to point out that finding scape goats is both as counter productive as it is diversionary. "

I am not looking for scape goats... I am talking about the cause of hundreds of deaths.. green activists deliberately frustrating the efforts of fire prevention and fire management teams to bujild fire breaks and preserve life and property...

those who seek to impose their personal will over the community by anarchistic activism are killers, not scape goats... killers who deserve to be shot as much as arsonists deserve to be shot (see below)

PEople are responsible for their actions and when those actions cause the death of others... then they are culpable.

YAbby "Why don't more people build in double
brick?"

wholly agree.. my house is double brisk and shallow cambered steel roof.. been up 30 years or so....

"round them up prior to the fire-season,
and keep them temporarily in jail, out of doing harm until
the fire-season passes...

She wasn't joking!"

Arsonists are killers in the making ... it is a waste of time, like pedophiles trying to change them

shoot/hang them or inject with something deadly and stop them breeding more arsonists that way..

I see the one they have caught is safe in police custody.. alot of people believe he deserves more than I have suggested and yet doubtless some bleeding heart will get up their and say how its not his fault because he used to wet the bed or some such drivel...

examinator,

At the very least, I hope the best minds will get together, sort through the various experiences of bush communities and come up with simple, affordable yet effective bunkers of last resort.

At least this gives people some useful alternatives. Depending on the situation, it gives those who are surprised by the speed of bushfires a safe haven in a devastating firestorm, as well as a temporary refuge for people who want to stick around and try to save their houses from spot fires.

It won't be failsafe, but it's better than zero.

RobP,

"At the very least, I hope the best minds will get together..."

Just change that to 'the most practical minds...' and I'll wholeheartedly agree.

I'll go along with yabby's suggestion of
houses built out of bricks and Rob's bunker
suggestion.

As Rob said - It certainly wouldn't hurt to try.

Another good suggestion that was offered on the ABC
program, "Q and A," the other night. And that was
the Aboriginal method of bushcraft.

There is much that we could learn about caring for the land,
and what and how to do it from the Aboriginal culture.
Afterall they've been doing if for far longer, and have
the expertise that we could now use.

Why not ask and learn?

Foxy while I highlighted through out the thread Aboriginal people burnt the bush they did not build permanent homes inside the bush.
Earth in my view, underground bunkers, would be better than bricks.
Air however should be assured, fire entered that steel shed bunker via the same hole as the power.
Lets not get side tracked, do we truly think saving our lives but not our homes every so often is an option?
Do those very forests we love and the wildlife deserve better?
prevention saves life, homes, trees and the wildlife.
Do you want to know the outcome of the Royal commission?
here it is in part.
preventive burning recommended, even if volunteers are paid to do it.
Better fire trails more of them, burning some one year the other in closed blocks the next.
How do I know? every inquiry brings down the same recommendations, from 1939 till now.
Bunkers save humans but are no answer to fire storms are they?

Belly: 'Anansi maybe you too are part of the problem, sorry but just maybe.' How did you come to that conclusion?

Yes, I've seen slow burn-offs to reduce litter. Always glad to see them, because in ordinary circumstances they'd logically make a fire much more managable, though they do not prevent bush fires.

I've also hung on the phone on numerous occasions with the electricy company to clear the road along the power line. Though what they then do is push all the litter to the side and create lovely high piles of fuel on either side. And I've had bolt cutters handy to cut through the chained gate put up by said electricy company after an occasion when it became apparant that our bush fire brigade didn't have a key and had to walk down to inspect a fire. We (the neighbouring residents) weren't allowed a spare key as 'this is private property'.

I left living in the bush, because I may do the right thing, but that does not mean that the person down the street or companies with a presence in the bush will do the right thing.

We can create all sorts of government regulations laws and red tape, but it will not prevent city dwellers living on the cheaper housing fringes of the city being caught up in something like this again. Though, it would create jobs in the public sector to manage/maintain all the new laws and procedures in place.

The Australian bush is not like a lovely European forest. To think we can have an urban community in our bush set amongst the trees is dangerous. These fires happened to Melburnians, they happened to city people.

Instead of blaming, maybe we need a change of mindset. For starters, everybody can take responsibility.

ColR, you yourself are one of the few posters on OLO wallowing in the shallow end of the gene pool. Flinging around emotional opinions that contribute very, very little.

Is Mise, point taken.

On another issue, I said earlier that a fire bunker should have a metal door. Since then, I've been made aware of the magnitude of the radiant heat of a fullblown bushfire.

Obviously, the best soultion there would be a door which was not flammable AND which has a low conductance of heat. I don't know what would work best. A person at work said a door filled with asbestos would be the best option. Although, this might create other problems later once the door gets old and starts to fall apart.

Dear Belly,

I'm sorry, I meant to acknowledge what you've
been saying all along on this thread.

I'm sure that this time the State Government
will pay attention to the findings of the
Royal Commission.

I doubt any bush fire fighter who has served more than one year, thinks burning in controlled bush cold weather, stops bush fires.
See my quote that we need to look for second fires weeks after the first, after leaves and bark falls.
We do not need to watch these tragic fires, it was a fire storm, the leaves green or not blew in front of the fire and no longer exist.
Reducing the fuel, in controlled burns, stops fire storms, stops tree top burning hell in the wind fire storms.
Fire loves slopes, it rushes up them far too hot to stop look if you get a chance at the fire approaching that house that had a cargo container as a bunker.
See the clear ground, it was well prepared for fire, so was the owner, yet inside his bunker he saw fire come in via a hole maybe 25mm round?
Either bunkers long entrances turns in them, non flammable door but air?
Have you breathed air from a pumped up truck tube?
Foxy regards, my fear is we have not followed actions proposed by inquiry's before.
We MUST not let extremist conservationists control policy's that may well have killed far more than 300, and will kill more next summer.
Bunkers save not one tree, one home, one animal, prevention is the answer.

Belly,
Exactly as I've already ranted on an ounce of prevention is worth a ton cure.
The bunker solution with O2 tanks safely stored might help as the line of last life saving only. Personally I wouldn’t decide to stay bunker or no bunker. Like you I’ve seen far too many including fire storms, Burned bodies and the smell who can forget the stench of burnt flesh.

The only absolute solution is to do away with trees and grass altogether. Mind you there is a down side to that.
There is no way in this country to stop bushfires only manage them. The country has evolved to burn. Likewise so long as there are people there will be nutters.
I have and would continue to Carp that the problem is everybody's concern and everybody should be involved.

Locally I helped organize a SES/fire brigade/council fire preparation afternoon (I door knocked every house personally) not because of being a saint in waiting, I was simply aware of the risks. And no one came.

As I also said elsewhere every environment has its nutters, risks etc either be aware, properly prepared or pay the price. ‘Too busy’, ‘didn’t know’ aren’t excuses they’re epitaphs.

People

Another thing concerning the fire people.
The funds being given by Kevin Rudd - Ten grand for funderals + Another ten for a four person family
Um, but are they asking them to sign off on that.

In other words do they just pop that into their bank accounts or must they do a non disclose no more action etc..
Can anybody check on that.
Re bunckers Double brick. These people often do not have a lot of money.

Lets not forget that.

examinator
"The only absolute solution is to do away with trees and grass altogether"
This is the best solution and this should be compulsary for every house close to the forest. With this way we protect the houses and the forest.
Usualy the fire start from a backyeard and goes to forest and return to other houses.
BUT IF THE YEARD IS CLEAR FROM GRASS AND TREES THEN THE FIRE STAY AT THIS YEARD OR BURN ONLY THE HOUSE FROM THIS YEARD.
I continue to suggest that the premiere from Victoria MUST resign, he must prove that he understand the size of the tragedy, he must accept his failure to protect the people, he must prove that he is sensitive politician who respect the victims from the fires and their families.
His resignation would oxygen our political life and would give a big moral and mental boost to ALP supporters.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

*Re bunckers Double brick. These people often do not have a lot of money.*

This is often just a question of priorities. Fact is that the
average Aussie home has nearly doubled in size in the last 30 years,
from 13 squares to 26 squares. It used to be a 3 by one, now its
a 4 by 2 with all mod cons.

To really understand houses and housebuilding, you need to go to
Europe. I've seen houses there, many hundreds of years old, still
lived in, still standing, with huge rock walls. They are amazing
for insulation and they never burn down.

Here we have a habit of knocking together a bit of timber and fibro,
making it look flash and calling it a house. Alot of the time,
people will spend far more on the land, then they ever do on the
building.

When I built my place, I had 2 Grand and alot of dreams. Ok it
took a few years lol, but I carted the bricks, poured the concrete
and after many years it was finished. It will still stand for
a long time after I have been chewed up by the worms :(

My point is, that if people want to live in areas that are fire prone,
it might pay to think about their priorities, like how easily the
place could burn down.

Some take the easy option and just rely on insurance. In the US
that has all changed, as insurers assess the risk of a house burning
and those with high risk houses, pay accordingly. My prediction
is that the same will happen here eventually.

According to media reports the Prime Minister has committed the Australian Government to implementing a bushfire warning system rapidly across Australia: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/13/2490266.htm

The Victorian Government successfully trialled a "Community Information and Warning System" in 2005. The system calls all phones in an area with a voice message and logs those phones which received and did not receive the message. There is a 118 page "The Report of the Trial and Evaluation" available from the Victorian Department of Justice (2006): http://www.justice.vic.gov.au/wps/wcm/connect/DOJ+Internet/resources/file/.../Community_information_and_warning_system.pdf

It should be noted that the proposed National Broadband Network (NBN) may make telephone based emergency communications less reliable. The NBN, will accelerate the trend away from use of the public switched telephone network. More people will be using the Internet for making phone calls. Even if the NBN can operate without mains power during a fire, most of the customer equipment for making phone calls over it cannot. This is not an unintended consequence, but a deliberate decision by the federal government to build a less reliable communications network. The request for proposal for the NBN asks about provision of battery backup of the equipment and mentions emergency calls, but as I noted in a talk for Turkey's earthquake warning centre in 2007, this was a low priority for the system (16 out of 18 items): http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/emergency_management/

An alternative is the use of text messages to mobile phones. The Sydney CBD as an opt in SMS emergency service for building managers. The problems with SMS systems are well known to emergency personnel.

In my view the use of cell broadcast to mobile phones should be looked at for an Australian warning system. This technology is built into the mobile phone standards and can transmit a text message to all phones in an area in a few seconds. It is more efficient than SMS and does not require subscribers to be registered to receive messages. A message can be sent to all mobile phones in an area: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_Broadcast

Anansi “ColR, you yourself are one of the few posters on OLO wallowing in the shallow end of the gene pool. Flinging around emotional opinions that contribute very, very little.”

Your opinion is noted, scratched out, discarded and ignored.

That you cannot deal with either criticism for your pixie-party ideals or the truth is your problem, not mine.

I will continue to post as I see fit.

I infact, welcome your objections, it is one of the reasons I post here… it gives me chance to slap a retard,

Which is not a particularly noble or fair sport but who cares, reality is, we are equal only before the law… everywhere else I stand head and shoulders above the likes of you… get used to it

And you might consider that tinged with a bit of hubris but think on this.... you are the one who decided to criticise not the content of my posts but me.

PALE “These people often do not have a lot of money”

If someone cannot afford to cover the cost implications of living in a certain area, the solution is within the capacity of anyone and everyone, MOVE ELSEWHERE.

Although I do not think in the absolute terms that is a solution… if you live in an area, on your own land, you should be free to treat that land as you see fit and not in accordance with the maniacal demands of greenie activists who make controlled back burning and tree clearing, to build a fire break a punishable offence.

It is up to the people who live in these areas to kick stupid morons off their councils and elect those who possess functioning brains and respect for landowners rights to control the disposition of their own property.

One final thing… the $50+ million collected from private individuals compared to the performance of Centrerlink has proven once again, you can rely on the compassion and commonsense of private individuals, despite the faux-promises of electioneering, you are screwed if you think government gives a rats.

TomW
And if you don't have a mobile/computer or it's not turned on or maybe the phone lines are down?
Cherry gardens had the right idea a set of fire sirens and pre-organized people who looked after the hearing impaired and those who need help.
PS I have a mobile but it's rarely on, the computer irregularly and I'm often away from the land line.

Yabby,
My point exactly building regs for houses in or near bush *must* be far more stringent see my list from SA. Bugger private (rights) priorities, these priorities can lead to deaths not only yours but others.
People in general neither know nor can be trusted to get those priorities right. We're talking lives here, dreams and or lifestyle are fine but when someone else's life is at stake, fireys et al near enough isn't good enough.
Also bricking a house or clearing the yard may not save it...the flying embers heat and the wind often are. Ash Wednesday I remember in Melton central being on the neighbour’s roof in a searing gale re-tying down their tiles and fighting embers 5 blocks from the fire front. We could see the wall of flames 20/30 feet high and hear the deafening roar. Later we saw how groups of houses not at the fire front had burned. Despite experiencing bush fires before it was Ash Wednesday and the Adelaide hills fires taught the difference between a ‘cold’ grass fire and a crown or (‘hot’) fire storm. Different animals all together, like comparing an angry dog to a charging herd of pissed off rogue elephants bent on making human jam of you and your property. The latter (fire storm) isn’t defendable on the scale of your house face it and be prepared. Don’t risk the fireys brave lives and others because of your misguided/selfish priorities.

examinator wrote 16 February 2009 9:47:17 AM:

>Tomw, And if you don't have a mobile/computer or it's
>not turned on or maybe the phone lines are down?

Yes, but whatever technology you use, it will have its limitations.

I was suggesting making use of mobile telephones. Most mobile handsets have batteries and so will continue to operate during a power failure. They are wireless and so do not depend on phone lines into the subscriber's home. But of course this assumes the cell towers and the links to them survive and that infrastructure has an independent power supply.

> ... fire sirens and pre-organized people who looked after
>the hearing impaired ...

Rural fire stations have sirens, but covering a wider area would be prohibitively expensive. It took a lot of infrastructure for the NSW Government to cover just the Sydney CBD with an audio warning system: http://www.oa.com.au/component.php?productid=5&componentid=9
When tested several of the units failed.

Using the mobile phone network is not a complete solution, but is relatively cheap, simple and reliable. This is something easier to build into a network than add later. As an example Canberra's Transact fibre optic broadband system was designed with two levels of backup power supply. The part of the network used for phone calls was given more standby power than that used for Internet data service. This was because the phone service was considered more important in an emergency. The whole network could have been made more reliable, but that would cost more.

During the Canberra firestorm, the Transact network held up well, apart from where the infrastructure was physically destroyed. The fibre optic cable to my apartment is underground and so protected from fire, but much of the network is strung on poles and vulnerable. The network uses fibre optic rings: one break in a ring does not result in loss of service, asthe data is routed around the other way. See: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2007/01/canberra-firestorm-report.htm

11am news report - announced fires are now in the
Dandenong Ranges (Belgrave).
They're believed to be caused by arsonists.

Bad news...

Dear Antonios,

Natural tragedies are not the making of people and
Governments. The Premier of Victoria as well as
the Prime Minister of Australia can only react
after the event. Which they are doing.

You may as well blame God for these events and ask
Him to resign.

And who will take over?

As there are so many mobile-phone tower around and increasing their numbers anyhow, how hard would it be to fit sirens on them, activated by heat from a fire. Example: if towers are say 2-5 klm's apart in bushland and on top of hills where they are generally placed (these spots will get the first heat too), and the closed tower to the heat will send the signal to the surrounding towers to activate the sirens and simultaneously a signal to HQ for immediate action and response.
No messages should be send to radio stations etc, because that will inflame fire-bugs curiosity.
Bunkers were all in vogue in Melbourne, had to fill in most of them.
As an industrial painter in the sixties I had to use graphite based paint on factory (steel) chimneys in Europe which was fireproof up to 900 Celsius for hours at the time. That sort of coating should resist external applied heat for longer then the bush fires, even though the fires are well above that to make steel melt.So, gal water tanks and fire equipment sheds and bunker doors should be treated with similar coatings.

Belly,

You ask ". . .Have you breathed air from a pumped up truck tube?. . ."
Yes, and it's not nice at all, tastes of rubber, fermented dead lurgies that were in the air, compressor lubricant and stale moisture but it sure as hell beats no air at all.

Yes better than nothing the air in a tube, but good enough?
Could that lubricant become inflammable?
No joy in seeing the Victorian fire bug was a fire fighter once, I spoke of this reality in early posts.
We should not take it out on the hero's who have done so much , the yellow overalls are worn by more hero's than idiots.
No easy task, for even those close to them, picking out the fire bugs.
Sentencing must concentrate on the victims not the mental state, or alleged mental state, of the fire bugs.

Yes, Belly, good enough.
The lubricant in the stored air is but an unpleasant whiff and such contaminated air is a whole life better than nothing.

Belly "We should not take it out on the hero's who have done so much , the yellow overalls are worn by more hero's than idiots."

Totally agree...

It would seem organisations like CFA are a "natural magnet" for arsonists but we should never presume the "desire to serve" is not the motivator for the overwhelming majority of CFA volunteers, who are doing their best to contain and negate the efforts of arsonists and lightning strikes etc.

its similar to another thread, where Examinator suggested "patriotism is the last bastion of the scoundrel", His small mind ignored that a sense of "patriotism" is not exclusive to scoundrels.

Just as CFA volunteering is not exclusive to arsonists.

Dear Col,

I don't think that anyone is seriously putting
down the CFA volunteers, or patriotism as such.

Of course not all CFA volunteers are arsonists,
and not all patriots are scoundrels.

But the fact remains, some are.

Col Rouge like many of your comments in this thread I agree totally.
Not with the examinator slur, I respect him.
But as I said up the thread fire bugs are bound to find a fire station, pedophiles a school criminals a crime.
NSW is trying to stop just any one becoming a fire fighter but in truth it is a backward step.
The introduction of the brown book training took life time members and great knowledge away.
Remember these people are giving time effort all, free regimenting them is not always a good idea.
raining in my part of Australia, has been for 4 days,this one makes 5, 13 and a half inches in the last 24 hours if only it was in Victoria.
Road trauma is a result I had to come home every creek is flooded and the road littered with wrecks, our great country can be cruel if you are not careful.

I thought my ears were burning because of the hot weather, but it turns out that people have been wondering about me. Thank you, to Forrest, Foxy, Examinator, Anansi for your kind thoughts.

It has been quite an education reading through this thread, considering my experiences of the past 11 days since my phone line and that of my neighbours was lost due to the bush fire. I guess I have been educated about many things. While there have been thoughtful, practical posts from many, it pains me to read the personal insults being flung about by those more eager to score points that to contribute to a discussion that must be had and will continue to be had for a long time whether as part of a Royal Commission or even by my talk to a farmer who lost his solid brick 100 year home to fire on Feb 7. He got away with his ute, his dog and his wallet by driving across country while flames leapt across roads.

As for me, I learnt I cannot save my home if conditions should return like those on Feb 7. Fortunately I was far enough away to only have to deal with keeping vigil (watering the walls of my home and filling gutters with water) against ember attack. I am safe and so is my home. But my fire plan is to leave early in future; my one problem with this is where to go? Where are the well publicised and established rendezvous points for people to go to? All workplaces have meeting places predetermined in case of fire. Where do residents flee to? I hope that a Royal Commission will address this issue along with all the others, including that we may see more of this type of fire in future.

Cont'd

I spent my early childhood in Alexandra and know all the towns; Marysville, Eildon, Healesville, Taggerty, Yea, King Lake and all the others as well as I know my back yard. This is the country of my youth and it is where I wish to live - and it has been changed beyond recognition. Everytime I hear a familiar place name mentioned on the radio, or, worse, here of someone I knew who has lost their home or their lives I feel further wounded.

No doubt the blame will be cast; the accusations many.

As for myself and many others, we will look towards the future, learn from the past and create a better way to be.

You are all welcome to join me.

The Federal Court of Australia issued "The use of technology in the management of discovery and the conduct of litigation" 29 January 2009 (Practice Note No 17): http://www.fedcourt.gov.au/how/practice_notes_cj17.htm

Justice Teague might consider these of use for his royal commission into the Victorian brushfires: http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/premier/fires-royal-commission-to-have-wide-terms-of-reference.html

The guidelines set out the use of electronic documents in court proceedings. This is intended to be used a significant number of the documents in a case are electronic (usually 200 or more) and so handling them electronically will speed up the process and lower costs. The bushfire inquiry will likely have hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of items of evidence. Using a computer based system will help make this feasable.

As with the Oil-for-Food Inquiry, if this evidence is also provided publicly online, it will help reassure the public that the process is open and transparent: http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/courtech.shtml

tomW,
Thank you for your response on the sirens.

I wasn't bagging the idea heaven forbid I was hoping to prod a solution that could cover those.

I do remember that sirens albeit with many faults (i.e vandals etc.) in the bush travel further. The one at Cherry Gardens could be easily heard 3-4 ks down the valley.
rostered volunteers used to call in on first sirent to all impaired residents homes.

Clearly it will take many different solutions to cover the range.
I hope that the holes I pointed to will be plugged.

Dear Fractelle,

Welcome back! What a relief to hear from you and learn
that you're safe.

Your two posts brought tears to my eyes (and I'd bet
I won't be the only one). I whole heartedly agree -
let us move on and learn from this experience - and see
to it that it never happens again.

May the Royal Commission bring out all the issues that
need to be raised, and may we learn what we need to do,
and do it.

I can't tell you how happy I am to hear from you...

We were all so very worried - but all's well that ends well :)

My heart actually did a back flip - when I saw your post -
all I could do was shout, "She's Back, Whoopee!"
(gave my husband quite a fright).

It's going to be a good week - Thanks to you!

Belly,
The patriotic quote was from another topic and context.
I'm sure the fireys don't think of the southern cross and Australia etc. when fighting a fire or simply joining up.
In my experience it has more to do with helping someone in dire need,
doing their bit, a sense of community and responsibility.
Patiotism to me is best when you can be proud of what you do/have done extra in contribution to the community, state or country even (your part of the) world. But I'm positive you know that already

Very well said Fractelle - and welcome back!

Fractelle,
Glad you’re ok.
I am the eternal optimist I honestly believe that despite evidence to the contrary I still believe that the good in the individual(s) will always out.
I now say this with some trepidation and fear of past sins being revealed but I too was known in the area when I was young(er) (lots of lovely young ladies) harhum! ‘nuf said me thinks.

I have no fear that most of what was will emulate the phoenix the spirit is too strong not to (as I remember it). It will be different but hopefully better in the long run if only because the community will learn from the tragedy.
Keep safe, I need tolerant/rational people to talk with on OLO.

examinator ant.

PRESS RELEASE

For Immediate release

AUSTRALIAN MUSLIMS MAKE MOOLAH FOR MELBOURNE

Sydney, NSW February 16 2009--- Mission of Hope, will be running a Family Fun Day BBQ on Saturday 21st February to raise funds for the victims of the Victorian Bushfires. It will be held at Paul Keating Park in Bankstown and all proceeds will go to the Australian Red Cross Victorian Bushfire Appeal.

Mission of Hope's President, Hanan Dover stated, "The tragedy experienced by the Victorian communities devastated by the bushfires has hit the heart of every Australian. We wish to assist in relieving their sufferings and providing them with some hope by doing our bit to assist our neighbours".

Franklins, the supermarket chain, have donated all condiments for the barbecue in addition to access to their local cool room for the day. Rabih Khalil from Khalil and Sons PTY will be donating all the meat and coordinated several other businesses to come together and support the appeal. "You just can't sit down and do nothing to help the victims of this great tragedy and I wanted to make sure I did my part to assist", said Mr Khalil.

Principal of Punchbowl Boys High School, Jihad Dib, will be bringing his students and providing in-kind support to assist in making the day a success. The boys will be manning the barbecues and helping through the day.

Mission of Hope is an Australian Muslim health promotion charity organisation. All money donated at the event will be tax deductible and Mission of Hope will not deduct any monies to cover the costs of the event.

To volunteer for the event, please call Rose Dandachli on (02) 0709 4659 or email info@missionofhope.org.au

COME ALONG WITH YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILIES TO THIS IMPORTANT EVENT.

BRING YOUR PICNIC MATS ON THE DAY TO ENJOY THE EVENT

SATURDAY 21ST FEBRUARY 11AM-4PM

All Donations above $2 are Tax Deductible

Good that one good story amung the sadness welcome back.
A fire fighter died yesterday and the death toll is still climbing ,yes may the RC find answers ,may they be put into use.
As a result of this tragic event we will see much more burning in colder months as a preventive measure.
Once the smoke begins to rise we must understand some who complain have little idea of the true nature of the bush.
Others may well have to stand against them, to save lives.
On a personal note grass in unattended paddocks is nearly my hight, no fire has seen it for years, after frosts this winter, or one soon to come a fire storm may well take homes here as it reaches trees.
Sad fact council has rules in place, brigades must fill in so many forms, owner is so unconcerned, that it may well have to burn, no one is able to sort out the mess and reduce the danger.
examinator no worries mate I am aware of the quote, and that it is a well known one.
I value your great threads, mind, and heart,I too without shame find my heart pumps faster as yours does and at the same times.

No joy and no surprises in the headlines story in todays Sydney daily Telegraph news paper.
Volunteer firemen are up in arms that they have not been allowed to control burn.
A woman was told she could not have her escape path burnt as it was a corridor for native wildlife.
Has any one considered that wildlife too dies in fire storms?
The Royal commission could be about any state, we all have the wrong rules and the wrong people controlling bush fire policy's.
While that paper is little more than a comic book, like most owned by that group, it has got it right here.
Truly volunteers giving up weekends to control burn need to spend more time preparing and reporting the burn than doing it, all in unpaid time.

Belly,” Volunteer firemen are up in arms that they have not been allowed to control burn.”

I guess the Fire fighters are expressing their frustration and anger at what the second poster on this thread wrote in the opening line of his post

“Maybe a Royal Commission to check the quality of controlled burns which have not been undertaken because of enviromentalist/green protestors asserting their authority to protect the lesser-known dingbat”

As I have said Col we agree with the basic things we see standing in the way of true fire fighting, controlled fires as a preventive measure.
Not all the opposition to controlled burns comes from true radicals.
Most comes from the truly uniformed.
One early spring, unfortunately years ago, every brigade was out in the field reducing the fuel load.
Local press in a rural area, was full of tree changers insults and complaints about smoke.
Most had no idea about the true impacts of fire, the history of burning this country and that some coastal trees could not grow without fire.
On the ground, right in the fire sheds, right now, every one is re committing to winter burns, spring burns, every one but those who stand in the way of, preventing fire storms.
No actions can stop bush fires, but no action at all gives birth to fire storms.

Burns can only be used in conjunction with proper grazing. There has been many a fire started by burns also. The wind can change direction a whip up within seconds. I was listening to an old farmer on the radio the other day. He said he knew that area down there and most places in Australia. He pointed out that the grazing stock did more to control fires than anything else. Another thing that people dont understand is Roos used to come along and eat the grass down after the cattle or horses Roos dont like long grass and cattle dontlike it short.

Now the Cattle have been tossed off and the Roos shot out all together prety much.

The wild horses goats etc are shot in each State or poisoned.
So our stupid cruel Governments shoot our beaufiful brumbies and wild 0gat pluss our Roos.
Then wonder why the our country is burnt to a crip.

Its time to get out of the farmers way and do things the way they were.
Mind you we are getting less and less real farmers by the minute.
This new so called breed of farmers with their cruel insentive feed lots wouldnt have a clue. Its also far cheaper to run livestock than pay men to burn off.

Next Tuesday I will talking on "Community Warning Systems - Balancing Technology and Reliability" at the Association of Public-Safety Communications Officials Australia 2009 Conference in Sydney. The conference topics have been changed at short notice to address some early lessons learnt from the recent and ongoing Victorian bushfires. I was asked today to speak. So my presentation has been prepared in the last three hours. Comments, corrections and suggested additions are welcome: http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/community_warning_systems/

---
"The Internet and web have a useful role in emergency communications, provided the use is planned. However, VOIP communications and the Government's National Broadband Network will make Australia more vulnerable, unless the system is built to a higher standard. The an ad-hoc arrangement of state based telephone-based emergency warning systems is no substitute for a nationally coordinated system. Digital technologies such as Cell Broadcast provide a better alternative. Emergency officials need to listen to what the ICT professionals tell them is possible and not just try and build digital versions of old analog and teletype systems. Both professions need to take the public into their confidence and treat the community as partners, not as victims. Current warning formats, such as used by Tsunami Warning Centers, do not make good use of Internet technology and there is the potential for Social Networking to be used for emergencies."

Summary from "Community Warning Systems - Balancing Technology and Reliability", Tom Worthington, For the APCO Australasia Annual Conference, Australian Technology Park, Sydney, 10am, 3 March 2009
---

My talk on Community Warning Systems at the APCO Communications Conference was reasonably well received. So I have proposed Australian Governments build such a national CSW system before the next fire season:

---
To: Council of Australian Governments (c/o COAG Secretariat, COAG Unit, Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet)

AUSTRALIAN COMMUNITY WARNING SYSTEM PROPOSAL

This is to propose that Australian governments build a national community warning system. Such a system can be in place for the 2009/2010 bush-fire season at a cost of less than $10M. The system would be used for fires, tsunami, terrorist incidents and other emergencies. It would be capable of delivering a warning message in less than a minute to most of the Australian population, or a specific geographic area.

At the APCOA emergency communications conference today, I gave a brief outline of problems with the current proposals for the use of telephone based warnings and SMS messages. The alternative proposed is the use of "Cell Broadcast" text messages for alerts. The Internet, with specially designed web pages, can be used to provide preparatory information to the community before an emergency and information to help with recovery afterwards.

The technology for issuing text warnings is built into the mobile telephone network in Australia. A small amount of work will be required to make this system available for emergency personnel to issue warnings. The more difficult task is to educate the emergency personnel and the public as to what the system is for and how to use it.

See: Community Warning Systems - Balancing Technology and Reliability, Tom Worthington FACS HLM, for the APCO Australasia Annual Conference, Australian Technology Park, Sydney, 10am, 3 March 2009: http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/community_warning_systems/

tomw like I suspect a few others I noticed your first post.
It interested me, I even put a post on the subject together, communications is my hobby I did not post it.
Ham radio, and a life time commitment to bush fire brigades and emergency radio communications.
I note you post after you did your thing and am still interested.
What power is proposed?
While this month my group go,s into the bush to cover an event over 24 hours using only our own power, every one hearing us has no need of power lines.
in such an event power may be the first victim.
no intent to be anything other than interested how will your system work?
good luck with it.

Belly wrote 4 March 2009 5:54:30 AM:

>... What power is proposed?
>... in such an event power may be the first victim. ...

Yes, mains power may be lost during an emergency, such as a bushfire. I was proposing to use the Internet and the web to prepare before an event and for recovery afterwards. For the urgent warnings during the emergency I was proposing to use the mobile phone networks, which have some level of backup power supply.

Of course this is not a perfect system, but seems better than the alternative of using landline phones. Many people now use cordless phones and more are using VoIP, neither of which work without mains power.

In an ideal world the community would invest in highly reliable communications for emergencies. However, in the absence of that investment we have to do the best with what we have got and plan for its use. The Victorian Government issued an ad-hoc SMS message this week. Fortunately this mostly worked, but it was not a good idea and could have gone badly wrong, making the situation worse. It is not the time to experiment with communications technology in the middle of an emergency.

Tomw I understand your idea and thanks for your reply.
The ABC northern cyclone watch looked ok too but it would be hard to get people to listen.
However consider this, as you would know scanners are a hobby many have.
If radios could be part funded by governments that have one emergency services channel included.
Just like a scanner but restricted to that one channel, soon people able to hear that channel may leave it on as the hobby is sticky.
Once heard it gets you, in any case in an emergency every radio and TV channel could broadcast a request that the radio be turned on.

I am writing a very comprehensive article about FIRE BUNKERS which may be of interest to you. It can be found at:
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ianpullar/firebunkers.htm
Feedback welcomed. Regards - Ian Pullar

The first assignment for the web design students (COMP2410) at The Australian National University this semester is the ethics of implementing bushfire warning systems. The second assignment will be to design a "National Bushfire Warning System" web page suitable for a mobile phone. I will be presenting a seminar on this at the ANU in Canberra on 16 April 2009. All welcome, no need to book, just turn up:

Seminar Announcement
School of Computer Science, CECS
The Australian National University

Date: Thursday, 16 April 2009
Time: 4:00 pm to 5:00 pm
Venue: Room N101, CSIT Building [108], North Road, Canberra

Speaker: Tom Worthington
Title: National Bushfire Warning System

Abstract:

Recent bushfires in Victoria and floods in Queensland have brought the issue of warning systems for the public to prominence. Modern digital communications, the Internet and web, have a useful role in emergency communications. However,some technologies such as VoIP may make Australia more vulnerable. An alternative national system using Cell Broadcast technology via mobile phones is proposed. The potential for Social Networking to be used for emergencies will also be discussed.

Biography:

Tom Worthington is an IT consultant and Adjunct Senior Lecturer in Computer Science at the Australian National University, where he teaches the design on Internet, web and mobile phone systems, including for emergency management.

He is a former IT adviser at Headquarters Australian Defence Force. Tom is a member of the Project Management Committee of Sahana open source disaster management system, used for the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami. He was elected a Fellow of the ACS for his work on Internet policy for Australia.

URL: http://cs.anu.edu.au/lib/seminars/seminars09/dept20090416
Seminars homepage: http://cs.anu.edu.au/seminars/

On Saturday, I attended Bar Camp Canberra 2. This event was broadly about Internet, web and open source software. One of the Google staff talked about the mapping system they provided for the Victorian fires: http://www.google.com.au/landing/victorianbushfires/

Later I talked on a proposed bushfire warning system: http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/bushfire_warning_system/

This was for a Twitter literate audience, so I described the system as "Micro-blogging for emergencies", using the example of the US National Park Service, which uses Twitter to release public information during incidents at the Lake Mead National Recreation Area (NRA).

The idea is reasonably simple: you have a short text message, which includes a short web address for more details. The web pages are in a carefully designed format which will be compatible with email, telex, fax and mobile phones and well as ordinary web browsers. All Australian emergency agencies would use the same format and the public would be able to see messages in one standard format.

The system would be used by emergency agencies to send information to media outlets, including radio and TV broadcasters (no national system currently exists for issuing emergency warning messages in Australia). Government officials, company employees and the general public could get the same information at the same time.