examinator wrote: We all should strive for perfection even though we all know that is functionally impossible.

I think that idea is the source of much guilt and suffering. To strive for an unreachable goal brings in its train dissatisfaction and guilt. We can never reach perfection so we are dissatisfied with whatever we achieve if we set perfection as a goal. Then we can castigate ourselves and others for being less than perfect. Doing the best we can with what we have is a healthier goal. I had a father who frequently bemoaned his inadequacies. He was a very good man but set unreachable goals for himself. It made it more difficult for those around him.

There's a Hasidic anecdote to illustrate that point. Reb Zosya said, "When I'm called before the Almighty he won't ask me, "Why are you not like Moses?" He will ask me, "Why are you not like Zosya?"

"Doing the best we can with what we have is a healthier goal."

david f,

I agree completely. I had a father who often silently worried about what he was going to do on day-to-day matters. It resulted in him being quite stern and stubborn with the rest of the family. It was obvious in hindsight that he was conflicted between keeping up with the external world and living his life at his own level.

In my opinion, it's the unrealistic expectations that are directly and indirectly placed on people that cause so many problems. For many, it is difficult to segue from where they are to where society expects them to be and so they react negatively. This can range between withdrawal at one end of the spectrum to freaking out at the other.

For the benefit of their health, such people should be able to opt out of the mainstream if they so desire without being turned into some kind of pariah.

It's all about people, people.

I know people who - without the slightest external pressure - will strive for perfection in everything. They understand that - however impossible - perfection should always be the goal.

They are also entirely comfortable with their efforts to achieve it. They constantly regard any shortfall as a learning experience. Which they then use to improve in future.

I like these people. They like themselves. I employ them whenever I can

I know people who - without any external pressure - will target perfection, but cannot handle what they regard as "failure", no matter how close they get. They brood about this shortfall until it takes over their lives. They may have even got closer than the first category, but destroy themselves with their inability to understand that perfection is merely a goal, not a requirement.

I try to spot these people and counsel them, but because the pressure comes from within - memories of a domineering parent, perhaps - there's not much you can do for them. They are very difficult people to fire, but very easy to persuade that "you might be more comfortable working somewhere more closely suited to your talents".

I know people who require external pressure to strive for perfection. Some react well to it, take it in their stride, accept that they will never be self-motivated but nonetheless will still put in to the best of their ability, go home at 5.30 and sleep well at night.

There are however also those who need to be set challenging goals, but react badly to that pressure. They think that meeting other people's expectations is somehow vital to their self-esteem, which is also probably a childhood-related problem.

But these people just happen to be the biggest whingers and moaners on earth, when things don't turn out for them.

And usually, they see it as someone else's fault.

I also know people who wouldn't know perfection if it whacked them over the head with a piece of two-by-four. These people are generally very happy people.

There's no one-size-fits-all in life.

Thank goodness

Davidf,
You are right of course as is Pericles.
I can only explain the clarity of my stance in terms of my past. NOT in any attempt to impress or superimpose this view on others

I hope and work for the best, expect the worst and therefore sanguine about what comes. Where I have done my best but the outcome wasn’t that flash then I take feedback/criticism on board discard the dross and try to learn from the experience.

If I hadn’t had that attitude I wouldn’t have survived a number of years as a volunteer crisis intervention councillor on the “suicide shift” (the average was a few months.) Was I special …nah I just had the required coping skills and a modicum of skill and a desire to help.

You had to be able to be objective but at the same time emphasise (give of your self) with the caller. Each call could be ‘the biggy’ and you maybe dealing with life or death. Thankfully those calls were in the minority but most councillors feared ‘that’ call.

You rarely got to find out if you were successful/or failed miserably. Sometimes you might read a sad outcome in the newspaper that seemed familiar.

A councillor’s job was to simply listen and help release the pressure. If appropriate try and encourage them to seek more intensive help. Even if they came in to in house social workers you rarely heard about it client confidentiality etc. In job satisfaction terms you didn’t have a real result.

If you went in with the objective "I’ll do my best" and it went bad you would have doubts the next morning and beyond."was my best enough? what if?..." If you were unable the result you wouldn’t last. I can assure you neither training (as it was) nor confidence on their own will carry you.

I guess the circumstance has coloured my view.

I fully accept that this may not apply to others

My parents believed that through
education was the only way to achieve anything.
They lost everything as a result
of World War II. Their country, their wealth, their
social position, their family. So push me they did.
And everything has to be perfect, or so I thought.

I ended up doing the same thing to my children
without realizing it. I've told this story on another
thread but I remember well the evening my younger son
came walking in with an outfit that gave new meaning
to the word "colourful." We were about to have dinner
with friends, and his outfit was not exactly what I had
in mind. I asked him to change into something else. He
was not enthusiastic. After a few minutes of getting
nowhere, his older brother, passed by and asked,
"Mum, why does everything always have to be perfect?"

In a very real way, that question was a turning point in my
life as a parent, and the ripples of that moment still
affect me. Obviously, everything does not have to be perfect.
Like many parents, I had been caught up in the external,
the trivial. I was making a major flap about a shirt and a
pair of trousers.

These day it's not surprising to find my children wearing odd
clothes, but I'm no longer concerned. I've come to realize
when my children reach old age, it probably won't matter what
they wore of how fabulous their birthday parties were.

What will be important is the content of our children's
hearts and minds, or what is often described as character.
When we say, "It's what's inside that counts," we speak a simple
but profound truth.

What should we strive for? Not perfection I now know.
For me personally it's wisdom. But the more I learn from
life, the more I realize how much I've still to learn.

Solomon ben Judah ibn Gabirol said:

"Man is only wise during the time that he searches for wisdom;
when he imagines he has completely attained it, he is a fool."

As I see it, there are those who grow old feeling happy and satisfied with life and then there are those who are the 'bitter and twisted' types. I will be satisfied as I am taking life by the horns.

The difference ia in being able to make and achieve goals. I believe in goal setting and also giving inner passions a go. You only have one shot at this life and if you don't give every thing inside that stirs a go, that 'nagging' in you that wants to come out, well, it is only yourself and your own life you are cheating.

There are those who creat their future and use goal setting and then there are those who just let life happen to them and blame the world for their misery; they don't control life at all.

By controling your life, it isn't being perfectionistic or having power over others, it is merely doing what you as a very unique individual have inside that is YOU that is yearning to be expressed and make a difference out there.

There is this line. Right. Above the line is the VICTOR. Victors take ownership, accountability and responsibility for their lives.
They make that choice.

Below the line are the VICTIMS. They blame, make excuses and deny.

My family live by this diagram, whether we are living above or below the line.

WHICH ARE YOU? I chose to be a victor and strive at this life of mine. I was never always this way but I made a better CHOICE.

We all CHOOSE.

Yes, I always strive for perfection in what I do. So does my darling partner.

We're obviously doomed, but between us we run an excellent business :)

I have had second thoughts since I started this string. Who am I to tell people what is a healthier goal? Maybe for some people it is best to strive for perfection. I was selfishly thinking of me when I wrote it wasn’t good to strive for perfection because my father’s dissatisfaction made him difficult to live with. However, had he striven for perfection and not been a pain in the ass when he didn’t get there it would have been better.

I like the story about the two Buddhist monks who approached a stream. A woman wanted to get across but was afraid of the current. One of the monks picked her up and carried her across. They walked and the other monk said, “Our order forbids touching women. Yet you carried her.”

“I put her down when we got to the other side of the stream. Why don’t you?”

I tell stories like that, but I don’t put things down. I don’t do right and then revel in guilt. That doesn’t help anything.

Look up “How Much Land does a Man Need” by Tolstoy. You can find it on the net.

My wife is an intelligent person who helps keep me in touch with reality. When I lament my failure to achieve more with my obvious talents she said, “You made yourself comfortable.” At least we can be comfortable with what we’ve done. If we’re sitting on Death Row we can be comfortable with the thought that we didn’t kill more people than we did.

Foxy, you sound like a great Mum. I wish I had been a better Dad, but I’m not going to have another chance at it.

Cakers, you can divide people up into victors and victims. Good for you. I have been both and sometimes have been neither. I also divide people up into categories but feel it is wrong when I do it.

Sentiments voiced in a post depend very much on whether it is daylight or dark, whether we have slept well, our digestion etc. They can't be over 350 words.

Davidf,
There is/was nothing wrong with challenging a perception mine, yours or anyone else’s. At the risk of sounding trite it is an ancient and wise thing to do. Buddha advised us that the path to wisdom begins with challenging one’s most sacred views, like wise Socrates said we should challenge all beliefs especially our most tightly held ones. Amongst other things I surmise Buddha was advocating humility by self examination and Socrates was advising against being static in our views.

In my last post perhaps I should have simply expressed my reasoning rather than the context albeit open to change.
Goals to me must be both objective and challenging. I reason that perfection in what you do is objective, clear almost measurable. On the other hand how do I objectively define, measure what is the best I can do until I’ve done it? To me this implies a lesser vaguer target … almost building in an excuse for lesser commitment/effort. In the context of extreme one off crisis counselling this is a luxury that neither you nor the caller can afford. It is only by this all in total commitment that at the end of the call be it 10 minutes or in rare cases 4hrs both can be sure that you *did* in fact do the best you could.
That doesn’t mean you couldn’t do better in the future that’s the learning process.

Then again, David the ‘boots and all’ commitment can be misperceived by many as intimidating/unyielding.

My adopted dad too was racked with feeling of inadequacy guilt partially because he survived the Burma railway and because he tended to measure himself by others…I don’t.
I helped raise our brood to be individuals be selective of what aspects of their role models to adopt including us. Proudly they are all fiercely individual, thinkers with their mother’s grounded sociability but sadly they all have my bizarre sense of the ridiculous… Family 'debates' can be intense and interesting. I guess they’re not perfect either. :-)

My view is we are here to be the best we, as individuals, can be.

Cakers post illustrates a point which I have always valued and been at lengths to express,

that we are born with free will and the “joy of life” will be found from exercising that “free will”,

rather than fearing to make and take those choices

or worse,

being denied the exercise of free will, as it were for so many millions of my parents and grand parents generations, from being labeled by class or worse, by the edicts of political despots.

I am guided by Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, which I think try to aspire to clamber up, with I hope some success (but I am not sure how well a “conscious” assault on Maslow’s pyramid qualifies).

Certainly I have, in the past couple of years particularly, discovered the absolute pure joy to be gained from what Maslow described as “success of offspring”.

Where, having strived myself to be responsible for the ethical development of the two children who I fathered, I now know them as adults and observe as they question and answer for themselves, what they should strife for.

My children, being independent adults with strong characters, strong values and generous spirits, freely choose to keep me close in their lives from a sense of love, not duty and that, is certainly high among the things which are well worth striving for.

And I have been very very close to someone trying to grapple with the agonising burden carried from "failure of offspring", from which they have been brutal in their judgment of themselves and critical of their own (self perceived) failings.

CJMorgans post reminds me, because he mentions “successful business” of a Margaret Thatcher quote regarding the fundamentals of life

“Economics are the method; the object is to change the soul.”

Rather than being remembered as a “successful accountant” I would prefer to be remembered as an ethical and maybe even an individual, unique or eccentric one.

So perhaps that is what I am now striving for

A deep and meaningful epitaph

Dear Examinator,

What gets people to call a crisis centre? How do they hear about it?

If I felt my future was bleak, nobody cared whether I lived or died and I had no enthusiasm for living suicide would be a reasonable act for me.

While writing this post my wife has been tossing paper airplanes at me so suicide would be an unreasonable act for me.

Do you feel suicide is ever justified?

What is perfection?
What is is the goal?
What way we should follow to perfection, to our goal,-s?
What is the cost to perfection?
The cost for who? Are we alone? For how long?
While we must be ready for hard work and sacrifications for our goals we must know that this is only a small step forward BUT it could be a small step backward!
It should be good if we understand, if we accept that the perfection is perfect only a moment in a specifc time and place.
As everything change, as new ideas, new needs have created, we must know that the perfection (as a goal and as a way) change too.
It is not bad if we leave a little space for a different kind of perfections, if we leave little space to unknown god, if we leave a window or a door unlocked in the back side.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear David f,

I don't know if suicide is ever justified. It would be
very difficult however to judge someone else, unless
you've walked in their shoes. A terminally ill person
for example. Who knows what you'd do under those
circumstances.

However, I could have used a crisis centre to call a
few years ago. My life was hell. We had returned to
Melbourne after living overseas for nine years and moved
in with my husband's parents. "It's only temprorary dear,"
my husband told me. "Until we find a place of our own."
I believed him.

Moving in with my in-laws, I suddenly
found myself in a very blinkered, narrow environment,
where things were done only one way.
There was no midway path.

My in-laws saw the world in terms of
black and white.

"Our son used to be
such a good boy, when he lived at home,"
my mother-in-law would tell me constantly.

Not knowing that her son at a very early age kept the truth from
them. They didn't realize that their son had been taught by them
to avoid confrontation at all costs. "Tell them what they
want to hear." My husband would tell me. "Then do want you want."
I considered that dishonest. But when my mother-in-law smugly
told me, "You know dear, we go to church every Sunday!"
I couldn't resist the come-back, "Perhaps you need to."
And then I cringed thinking, "God'll get me for this!"
But as always the remark had gone over my mother-in-law's head.

I remember writing in my diary:

"What was he like in his youth, this man I now call 'Father?'
My husband's father, my children's grandfather
The signs of age are creeping up on him
He keeps score of everything that displeases him
Writes it down in his book of accounts."

Still, as the years flew by, my relationship with my in-laws
mellowed. I perserved in trying to please them.
My father-in-law died at the age of 91.
Today, I care for my-mother-law who has alzheimers.

I think that we should strive to be happy and enjoy every day,
for it is all about enjoying the journey of life, not arriving
at the destination.

In my experience, people are happiest when they have a purpose
in their lives. What that purpose is, can be quite different and
is up to each of us to decide, for we are each quite different.

I don't believe in Col's "free will" theory, the neuroscience
does not back it up, neither does my experience of life. But
I admit that at first it does seem to be so, until you dig a little
further.

Genetics and environment have shaped who we are, both matter.
We are only aware of a tiny fraction of what is going on in
those brains of ours, the rest operates at the subconcious level,
affected by genes, hormones, neurotransmitters etc.

Studies of identical twins split up at birth, kind of prove
the point. They "choose" very similar things, alot of the
time.

So I think we are kind of "driven" more then we acknowledge
or often want to admit.

For instance, since I was a kid, I have always been pretty
untidy :). Yet I have the ability to focus on the big picture,
not the little picture. Others are different, they fuss over
every little detail. I have a great memory for numbers, but
cannot remember names. That is just how the genes fell when
my mum and dad got kinky lol.

So I think that we have to accept our natural attributes and
our bad points and make the best of how the dice fell at
conception.

I'm happiest being me as I am, faults and all. I don't try
and change me into something that I am not

Davidf,
Think yourself lucky your wife only throws paper aeroplanes at you, my wife got us banned from Tullamarine for throwing the real thing at me, I ducked :-)
I'm not sure if your question is serious but I’ll treat it as it is.
The services (multiple) numbers are usually in the front of the telephone book.

The reasons are many and varied as are the degree of the threat or risk.
Some ring to tell someone why they're going to suicide.
Some do so as a last resort (“give me a reason why I shouldn’t”, “are there any other options”.)
Some ring to tell someone why they're going to do it.
Some call to confirm their decision almost a check list recitation. “I’ve done this and then this…” and “This is my life I have nothing else to live for.”
Some are psychotic
All are in crisis and need the psychological bandaid to tie them over.

Not quite what you asked but caller present in different ways. Contrary to common belief not all ‘serious’ calls are from callers who sound depressed some are quite calm and resolved.
Then there are the silent or monosyllabic ones.

In the role it isn’t the counsellor’s views that are the issue it is the callers’. You can’t afford to be in the slightest … judgemental. Objective and empathetic it’s all non directive counselling. The counsellor is there to help people deal with issue in their way.
My opinions didn’t and still don’t matter with regards to other people.
Suffice to say that absolutes are desirable for targets but not something to enforce on others, context is everything.

Dear examinator,

Your wife threw a real airplane at you? Do you know the origin of the term, aerodynamics? Eros is the Greek God of love and dynamics refers to motion.

I am totally serious in asking about suicide. My wife and I are members of Voluntary Euthanasia that works for re-enacting legalised physician assisted suicide. Australia had such a law in the Northern Territory. Rights of the Terminally Ill (ROTI) was overturned by act of the Commonwealth Parliament over ten years ago. Before the law was overturned four people had availed themselves of its provisions.

I believe that people should have the right to commit suicide and others should not be legally condemned in helping them out.

I do not think suicide should be encouraged or that people in desperate situations should not be helped, but I think in some cases suicide is the least bad alternative.

The early Christian Church did not condemn suicide. In the early Christian era suicide was not only tolerated, but condoned by the church, as a result certain sects such as the Donatists and the Circumcellions jumped off cliffs in great numbers to hasten an afterlife that promised greater rewards than those found on earth.

Faced with the loss of so many of its members, in (about) the sixth century the church decided that anyone else who committed suicide was going to hell.

The Donatists, of whom St Augustine said, "...to kill themselves out of respect for martyrdom is their daily sport" were noted for jumping from cliffs, and also burned themselves to death in large numbers.

The Donatists are probably best known for their practice of stopping travelers and either paying them or threatening them with death to encourage them to kill the, presumably, heaven-bound martyr. The Donatists were eventually declared heretics and violently suppressed.

Davif and wife,

No David it wasn't a General Dynamics plane (they're military) it was only a regional Fokker Friendship you should have seen the looks of surprise on the crew & passengers' faces. The way the authorities carried on you would have thought it was something serious like a 747 or something...fair go she's only 5'2". (Joke pythonesque response to throwing paper planes) :-)

I can understand why the Donatists and Circumcellions aren’t big today…I can think of a bunch of people (namely polies) who should join them though.

We are getting well off topic
Now the serious bit
At the risk of seeming like a Foxy fan (which I unashamedly am in many issues) I generally concur with her view in that it is a highly personal choice and unless you walk in their shoes you can’t know.

As a counsellor personal opinions were/are an unwanted distraction. It was all about applying the ‘psychological bandaid’ (‘crisis intervention’) not attempt to supply solutions or cures to the caller. The fundamental moral choice was not mine to make or judge. I was not there to dissuade or agree with either outcome.

If you are wondering if I dealt with terminally ill callers the answer is yes a few. Again I was there to help them cope nothing else.

Their ultimate outcome was not my objective to do so would have been.
• Overrating my importance/role.
• Disrespecting their decision.
• Set my self up for conflicts with both the caller and within me both of which would have ended badly.
Even today I still see that my opinion on the subject is contextually based and subject to change.
BTW much of this is ancient history now.

I do have grave reservation about lobby organizations as my experience they tend to be both dogmatic and wracked with personalities and politics. The latter feature often tend to outweigh, swamp objectivity and a bigger more relevant/proportional focus.

Dear David f,

Are you familiar with Dr. Philip Nitschke?

He founded 'Exit International.' It's a leading
voluntary Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide Information
and Advocacy Organisation.

Dr Nitschke ran for office in our electorate against
Kevin Andrews during the last election. I heard Dr
Nitschke speak and was most impressed. He struck me
as a very passionate and caring man.

Dear Foxy,

We met Phillip Nitschke several times and arranged for him to speak at a banquet in Brisbane. At the close of his speech the head of the organisation raced to the podium and disassociated herself from the views expressed. Since he was merely a speaker and not a member or representative of the organisation that was unnecessary, but he frightens some people.

I admire your caring for your in-laws. I don’t know if your father-in-law’s book of accounts was a physical one, but it reminds me of Xiao Xiao. About seventeen years ago a Chinese friend of ours was a student in Adelaide. Her husband unexpectedly came over from China with their six year old girl and started fighting with her. She flew up and dropped the child off with us in Brisbane to get her out of the scene of the conflict. So there we were with a Chinese kid who couldn't speak a word of English. We put her in the local school where she appeared to relate to the other kids. The Board of Ed had a Chinese speaking teacher come in once a week to talk to her. I had a Chinese friend who occasionally interpreted. So as not to separate her from the other kids we put her in religious ed class. She came back to the house singing, "Who is Jesus?" As an antidote I taught her "Yessir, that's my baby." She liked it much better, and WIJ was put aside. We still can do a snappy duet of YTMB. Anyhow we have kept in touch, and she still comes up here for vacations. She is Australianized and has become Elise instead of Xiao Xiao. Her mother got a divorce, a PhD and now is a distinguished professor.

While Xiao Xiao was still in China she stayed with her father’s parents. Her father told them to keep account of her misdeeds. When her father came to visit on the weekend he would consult the record and beat her. The marks were still there on her little body when she came to us.

Dear David f,

Thank you for telling me about your chinese friend and
her daughter.

Yes, my father-in-law did keep a physical account of
everything. He wrote it all down neatly into a little
black book and would quote it back to me on special
occasions, like my birthday.

The straw the broke the camel's back took place when
I came home early from work one winter's evening to
find my younger son sitting outside in the yard.
It was raining and cold. While my older son (father-in-law's
favourite) was inside with his grandfather
enjoying a chocolate cake.

When I asked my younger son why was he outside, he
replied that he'd been "bad," and grandfather had put
him outside as punishment. The child was 3 years old.

It wasn't long after that we moved out. My father-in-law
wouldn't speak to me for a few months, and did not come
to say goodbye when we moved out.