The issue of war crimes in Gaza has been raised by
senior UN officials and Human Rights groups
and World News media for an international war
crimes investigation.

Should it proceed?

A war crimes tribunal is a good idea if it gets to the truth and acts to stop innocent people from being killed.

However, in the heat of the battle this never happens, After all, the truth is always the first casualty in war.

What will happen is that a judgement will be made after all the dust has settled down and the facts become more evident. If deemed appropriate, a tribunal will be set up to deal with any unresolved matters. This is not particularly satisfactory from a humanitarian point of view, but about the best that will happen.

This is toooo serious to ignore.

"Sure" it should proceed.. just as much as the war crimes committed by Hamas over the past many years launching indiscriminant rockets into civilian towns of Israel!

You can't morally have one without the other. (to try is to exhibit moral bankruptcy

surely the UN must have invented some law that makes it a crime to use human shields in war. Oh that's right it won't apply to Hamas because they are such an upright organisation.

runner,

Kindly stick to the topic of this thread.

Please?

England and ireland are in a position or should i say the same war as israel and palestine .The irish let bombs off in england and the palestinians let rockets off to smash israel.Terrorism starts in the home and war crimes start in the home as well .Palestine needs to become more educated to leed there own country becoming a self motivated people and not letting others like Hamas destroy palestine as the palestinian people live in the rubble of wasted hope .David.see you launa sedman .peace is a very short road but many cannot find it.

yep sure, but only if is it ok to trail those who did crimes against Israel and it's people too... which I think some people will struggle with.

I'd love to see a clean look into who did what... bye bye Hamas, terrorism is for sure a crime..

Foxy love of my dreams (only :-( )
It’s a great idea and I think it should happen.
Unfortunately it will go the same way of the war crimes investigation into Israel’s part in the massacre in the Lebanese refugee camp i.e. The US will veto it in the security council. I suspect that if the truth is ever out Bush gave at least tacit support for the incursion. Hence it was called off as Obama was about to replace the caster oil (ricin) shrub (aka GWB).
GWB is almost enough to convert me, at least long enough to pray for a pestilance to befall him.

Dear examinator,

The importance of the issue of war crimes in Gaza
being investigated is that all the facts come out
in full, and are recorded. Because while it may be
Gaza today, it could be some other place down the
road, a few years from now.

The measure of humane people over history is their
fidelity to their principles. We must remind our
Governments and our people to remain faithful to
those principles or otherwise our civilisation, like so
many in the past, will be swept on the ash heap of
history.

Questions need to be asked and answered. I would be very
surprised if the US in the Security Council vetoed anything.
I have faith in the new American President's leadership,
as well as the pressure that will be applied by senior
UN officials and Human Rights groups.

One more word ...

Thank You! :)

I'm watching this madness unfold here.. almost like some kind of twilight zone idiocy.

WAR CRIMES.. just let me know when you will mention ALL .. incLUDing those committed by HAMAS in GAZA (by using human shields) and in Israel with rockets.

To just mention Israel is anti semitic..immoral and unbalanced. It is to demonstrate a level of bigotry and moral selectiveness seldom surpassed by anything in this world. If anything.. the only thing worse than this selective discrimination against Israel is the treatment of National Socialism. Not something I'd want to be identified with you mob.

To anyone mentioning "Israel's" actions but not HAMAS's.. I have a simple and fair question..... WHY?

Boaz, I want to know that too.

I believe the issue of war crimes can be plainly dropped at the feet of Palestinians for the past 50 years...

Since they bombed and hijacked civilian airlines and murdered the Israeli atheletes in Munich in 1972.

I think Fatah should have been dragged screaming before a war crimes tribunal and Arafat be exhumed and reburied in a barrel of bacon fat.

I think Hamas should be dragged in front of a war crimes tribunal along with Hezbollah.

The indiscriminate firing of rockets into ISraeli houses and schools is not the action of someone entitled to question the criminality of Israels deeclared military excursions designed to avert such attacks.

It simply displays the UN is not only out of touch with reality but is as corrupt as the cesspool dwelling creeps whos hands are on the rockets.

For all the good it does, bearing in mind when force of arms are needed they go running to USA / NATO, the UN as an organisation might just as well be abandoned.

I am sorry Foxy, the moment I see – U N- Human rights- and International Media - or any other industry for parasites; I just switch off- these mental institutions are propaganda proliferators – And in all seriousness, any war is a crime – but when you are attacked and it is in self defence – Gods word allows for your survival – Then the definition of War Crime is negated and Defending is by any means nessasery.
Humanitarianism and The U N - along with Media – are a Paradoxical Oxymoron. They are nothing of what their title suggests.

I agree that there should be a properly constituted investigation into war crimes in Gaza, and that anybody from either Israel or Hamas who can be identified as committing them should face trial.

Of course, given that the Israeli commanders decided to use disproportionate force - e.g. white phosphorus and depleted uranium weapons in crowded civilian areas - then it seems quite likely that any objective investigation will find more Israeli culprits than from Hamas. Which is of course why it won't happen.

Is Boaz-Porky still banned, but using his BOAZ_David account as a sockpuppet to facilitate commenting while he is suspended? Naughty naughty.

This is an interesting discussion.

We're getting a wide spectrum of opinions
which is good. And I am pleased that both
sides of the issue are being raised.
And that was what I expected. After all
we don't necessarily see things as they are,
we see them as we are.

I've come across an intersting web site:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUKLM736083

"UN investigator sees evidence of war crimes in Gaza."
By Jonathan Lynn, Thurs. Jan 22, 2009.

Richard Falk, UN investigator, told a Geneva news
conference: "I believe that there
is the prima facie case for an independent inquiry..."

CJ..I've received no notification that I'm banned..I just assumed it.

Foxy..this thread began with bias and prejudice and it seems you are perpetuating that.

"Because while it may be
Gaza today, it could be some other place down the
road, a few years from now."

WHY...oh why.. did you not be fair and say YESTERDAY.. i.e.. years of HAMAS rockets onto innocent Israeli children and mothers in towns?

I really want to know why? I feel there are a LOT of others who also want to know WHY?

Why is this 'war crimes in Gaza' only limited to what Israel did..and not what HAMAS did?

Failure to address this point is outright bigotry, prejudice and anti semitism.

Why did this UN official single out Israel and NOT HAMAS? is he a sympathizer with their genocidal objectives?

Any doubting Thomas's or Thomasina's out there.. can be educated by this statement from Mahmoud Al Zahar of HAMAS.

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD108306
"Palestine means Palestine in its entirety - from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River, from Ras Al-Naqura to Rafah. We cannot give up a single inch of it. Therefore, we will not recognize the Israeli enemy's [right] to a single inch. That is one thing.

"The second thing is that if the right of return is an individual right, neither Mahmoud Al-Zahar nor 'Abbas Zaki can relinquish it, because all these concessions will constitute a national catastrophe.

"The third point is that we can found a state on any piece of the land, and this will not mean we give up on any other part of the land."

In the interview..Zahar made this point as follows:

"Let's be very clear.. VERY clear"... (etc)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhEoz897qkE&feature=email

I want to know WHY are people in denial about this ? well...why?

I assure.. my language and accusative tone will become much harsher if this is not addressed.

BOAZ,

"WAR CRIMES.. just let me know when you will mention ALL .. incLUDing those committed by HAMAS in GAZA (by using human shields) and in Israel with rockets."

For starters, Hamas is essentially a resistance movement. Their fighters are paramilitary and do not operate under a national flag. As such, there won't be a war crimes tribunal held against them. Not to say their leaders and fighters have not committed crimes, but that their penalty tends to be different - death by high-grade explosive.

War crimes are reserved for commanders mainly, who use the power of a sovereign military force to deliberately carry out illegal activities on the battleground. The sorts of claims made against Israel like shooting civilians indiscriminately, deploying white phosphorus and other ordnance that is way too powerful for the legitimate target they are fighting is the sort of thing war crimes tribunals should be set up to investigate.

If a tribunal discovers that Hamas was responsible for deliberately provoking Israel and consequently putting its own citizens in danger, then this should be seen as a mitigating factor in any penalty of Israel.

But a war crimes investigation of Israel is highly unlikely as long as the war is ongoing and Israel is the dominant force in the region.

BOAZ_David,

There's an old Jewish saying:

"The worth of every man is proportionate
to what he knows..."

I can't be held responsible for the
assumptions that you choose to make or
how you choose to interpret what I have
said.

This topic was raised in the World News Media,
hence this thread.

I have no intention of taking sides in this discussion,
that's not my aim.

I gave the website earlier, of Richard Falk, the
United Nations Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in
the Occupied Palestinian Territory, and International
Law Authority, at Princeton University (also Jewish),
because he is an expert on the subject we're
discussing.

Your threat to use a 'harsher tone,' may impress your
children, but it has no affect on a Forum such as this.

You obviously have some sort of a problem.
I'd suggest you keep it under control, as it's
not appropriate to carry on the way you do.

Bush did many times worst things in Iraq than the Israel last weeks in Gasa and he avoided the prosecution for war crimes, I do not expect anything against Israel.
The truth is that Hamas gave to Israelis the opportunity to fight them and I suspect Israel government had full support not only from Bush but from all Arab governments, ecxept Syria.
A normal, sort fight which benefited the coalision parties of israel government and of cause it benefited Hamas too!!
I think Hamas must stop the rockets and recognize the right of Israel to exist. Hamas must become more responsibble and more realistic.
Isreal government must stop to use Hamas for temporary party benefits and must stop to provoce and punish Palestinian people.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Antonios,

It is important to record the truth.
"When the truth is replaced by silence," the
dissident Yevgeny Yevtushenko said, "the silence
is a lie."

Therefore war crimes in Gaza should be justly,
and fairly, investigated by an independent
international body, and their findings and
recommendations recorded.

Journalist Anne Davis in Washington, reporting
in, The Age, Sat. 24th January 2009 writes:
"Obama redraws Middle East policy."

She tells us that US President Barack Obama has
dramatically shifted America's stance towards the
Middle East conflict. He has called on Israel to
open its borders with Gaza to allow humanitarian aid
and commerce to flow and said one of America's most
talented negotiators would try to broker a more
extensive peace in the troubled region.

According to Davis -
President Obama is offering a more even-handed
assessment of the problems underlying the conflict.
President Obama said: "Just as the rocket fire aimed
at innocent Israelis is intolerable, so too is a
future without hope for the Palestinians."

"I was deeply concerned by the loss of Palestinian and
Israeli life in recent days, and by the substantial
suffering and humanitarian needs in Gaza...

As part of a lasting ceasefire, Gaza's border crossings
should be open to allow the flow of aid and commerce,
with an appropriate monitoring regime with international
and Palestinian Authority participating."

It seems that the US will "actively and aggressively
seek a lasting peace between Israel and the
Palestinians" in the wake of the recent Gaza conflict.

That can only be a good thing.

Dear Foxy

your statement:

"Therefore war crimes in Gaza should be justly,
and fairly, investigated by an independent
international body, and their findings and
recommendations recorded."

Immediately limits the scope of any investigation to "What Israel did"
Oh sure..the idealist might think "But surely they would also investigate Hamas use of women and children as human shields as well"

But the REALIST knows where such investigations come from... and impartial/balanced/fair/even handed is certainly NOT where they come from.

So...what you have done..is to be a willing tool in anti semitic leftoid propaganda, by passing on the limited scope of this idea of 'war crimes..IN GAZA'

If any such investigation (I would call it a kangaroo court where the outcome is decided well in advance) is to have even the smallest thread or shred of credibility..it would be a CONTINUATION of the one which SHOULD have been formed years ago to deal with HAMAS and it's attacks on Israeli women and children with rockets which have no guidance systems.

When you say you can't do much about what interpretation I place on your words.. ur quite incorrect. You could have completely avoided my rather terse response by simple begINNING the whole thread with a few more indications of fairness and justice and even handedness.

Had you mentioned War Crimes BY ALL sides, including Hamas it would have been better.

Why am I 100% cynical about any such 'independant' investigation? hah! because it only arises AFTER Israel STRIKES BACK against genocidal terrorists in Gaza.

WHERE were these 'righteous' voices over the past years? why were they not condemning HAMAS.. Ismael Haniya, Mahmoud Zahar..Sheikh Yassin, Rantisi and their terrorist thug/pseudo-nazi party workers while they were mercilessly dismembering Israeli women and children with their rockets?

Foxy.. more.. "I'm not taking sides"...? really.. good grief.

The article you linked us to says this (my emphasis added)

QUOTE:
GENEVA, Jan 22 (Reuters) - There is evidence that ISRAEL committed war crimes during its 22-day campaign in the Gaza Strip and there should be an INDEPENDANT inquiry, U.N. investigator Richard Falk said on Thursday.

The mental anguish of the civilians who suffered the assault is so great that the entire population of Gaza could be seen as casualties, said Falk, U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip."
UNQUOTE:

To which any Israeli would respond..WHAT THE HECK ABOUT the mental anguish the million plus inhabitants of Sderot, Beer Sheeba, Ashkelon and other places, have been suffering for a HECK of a lot longer than the 22 days of the Gaza self defense operation?

ISRAEL targeted specific individuals for assasination. Those individuals were the hard core of HAMAS dedicated to the OBLITERATION of Israel as a state and Jews as a people in the region.

ISRAEL had every right to do so... they still have, and will continue to have it. They did not deliberately 'randomly' attack civilians or even (though they have the moral right to do so) send a few rockets into the many Hamas rallies which glorify the genocide and terrorism they practice.

If you have any doubts about the moral right to assassinate political opponents who are doing nothing more than 'talking with' your enemies.. I refer you to MOHAMMAD BIN ABDULLAH founder of Islam.. to whom HAMAS looks for guidance.. as the prime example of doing just that on repeated occasions, but the best example is Ka'b bin Al Ashraf.

Any enquiry which uses the word 'INDEPENDANT' in the same paragraph as 'Israel committed' is NOT independant! nor is it impartial.

In fact..such a commission of enquiry deserves to be flushed down that place where the rest of those like it are or should be flushed.

Boaz_david,

You’ve finally lost it,

You went from someone with strong convictions now to a rent a crowd haranguer and bigot. I think you’ve been to too many protest meetings. This site isn’t soap box corner where you scream people down with your excessively aggressive idiosyncratic take on reality.
To attack those who choose to bate the weirdo is one thing but to refuse to accept the word of someone who clearly stated that they take no sides and they don’t is another thing entirely. Foxy, of all the people to attack as an aggressive adversary... you HAVE lost the plot.

Instead of venting your spleen waiting to get banned surely a better approach would be to calm down and approach the issues and other posters more reasonably.

She is right your current approach has sunk your credibility and this might explain why you don't get discussions anymore.

On second thought go back to your soap box that way you’ll hasten your banning and we can get on with DISCUSSING issues rationally.

BOAZ_David,

Kindly read my posts.

I refer to war crimes in Gaza. I don't refer
to any particular side.

The issue of war crimes was raised by senior UN offcials,
Human Rights Groups, including Israeli Human Rights
Groups, and the local chapter of Amnesty International,
and World News Media, all of whom feel that there
should be an independent investigation into whether
war crimes have been committed. in Gaza.

I raised the topic as a thread
because I thought it would make for an
interesting discussion.

I cannot understand how this is being "Anti-Semitic."
I don't mention either party.

You assume that an independent investigation is going
to be a 'Kangaroo Court.' Why would this be the case?
War Crimes trials have a history - and none that I am
aware of were ever accused of being "Kangaroo Courts.'
Certainly not at the Hague, or other civilized
institutions.

I've already explained why I gave the Reuters website.
Richard Falk (A Jew), is an expert in international law
at Princeton University, and the United Nations Special
Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian
Territory. He is a international law authority.

Having an investigation is not an esoteric abstraction
but an urgent responsiblity that falls to those with
the privilege of a platform. We can't only allow
vigorous debate within unmovable invisible boundaries,
ever fearful of the smear of anti-Semitism.

If we do we are diminished as a civilised society.

As RobP pointed out, war crimes tribunals follow the logic of nation states. War crimes are committed by individuals acting as representatives of a nation state. This is a problem for Israel/Gaza issues.

Israel is a democratic nation state, recognised as such, with all the institutional governance setups including official defence forces and individuals in charge of those who it's possible to prosecute. Gaza has no such setup, putting debates about why to one side.

If you want to treat both sides as equal contenders for war crimes you'd first have to recognise the territory as a nation state with a system of government and officials who could be prosecuted. But if you did that, Israel would have more than war crimes to deal with.

This is one of the core problems. The state of Israel has the right/responsibility to protect the people and territory of Israel because it is a nation state. There is no recognised state with the same right/responsibility for the Palestinian people and territories.

To the extent that Gaza doesn't recognise Israel's right to exist, nor does Israel recognise Gaza's right to exist

Dear Foxy.. it is you who need to read my posts.

I demonstrated clearly from the article you linked us to...that your whole approach was biased....why?

BECAUSE....the article only referred to crimes by ISRAEL...'that's why.

Secondly.. your thread mentions only "GAZA".... you don't have to mention any side.... it is written in huge invisible ink in the cyber sky.

If your motivation was 'even handed justice' you would have called it 'War Crimes in the Middle East....HAMAS and Israel'

You would not have limited it to just 'GAZA' and linked us to an article which you describe as 'interesting'.. but which condemns the Israelis up front.

BALANCE. If you were interested in that.. you could have included THIS

2007
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/870584.html
The Human Rights Watch organization Wednesday condemned Hamas and Fatah for committing "serious violations of international humanitarian law, in some cases amounting to war crimes" in violence in Gaza in recent days.

You could have given an example of what is claimed against BOTH sides.. so we would see that you are not (by silence) just looking for some condemnation of Israel.

Because..if you had placed the above report into the mix.. we then have a 'moral context' to understand Israel's actions.

The trouble with Western bleeding hearts and UN 'obervers' and "Human Rights" orgs is that it's not THEIR children being blown to bits at the local Sderot KINDERGARTEN by HAMAS rockets.

HAMAS blame the 'blockade' and Israel points out that no genocidal/worse than Nazism regime, whether democratically elected or otherwise will get a SCRAP of support or acceptance by those who know only too well what such things mean.

Rocketing Kindergartens in Israel is NOT the answer to the problem...
RENUNCIATION OF A GENOCIDAL CHARTER "is".

BOAZ_David,

If you read my initial post - it said that
the issue of war crimes in Gaza has been
raised by senior UN officials, Human Rights
groups and World News Media... who want an
independent inquiry - I asked should it proceed?

End of story.

You just don't get it.

And, that's your problem, not mine.

Boazy,

Would you be willing to open the history books and consider War Crime accusations on both sides of ANY conflict - WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Aghanistan, Iraq?

There were atrocities carried out by both sides.

White Phosphorus used indiscriminantly against civilians trying to escape and deliberately targetting declared UN Safe-Havens says a lot more than words in a "Genocidal Charter".

Boazycrap - you can easily check whether you're banned or not. Just click on the Logout/in button on the left of your screen, then enter your OLO ID and password. If you've been banned, you'll get a message saying "This account has been suspended" or some such. It's been a while for me, but as I recall it's pretty obvious.

If you're aware that you've been suspended for exceeding the extreme latitude that OLO provides you to spread hatred and loathing, might I suggest that you conform with OLO's rules?

Otherwise, you could always take your bile, hatred and godbothering to some other forum, no?

. The trouble with Western bleeding hearts and UN 'obervers' and "Human Rights" orgs is that it's not THEIR children being blown to bits at the local Sderot KINDERGARTEN by HAMAS rockets.

In the interests of 'balance', nor are the hundreds of Gazan children blown up in UN SCHOOLS and their OWN HOMES by ISRAELI rockets THEIR children.

This YELLING at people business feels ODD.

Foxy, you should try incorporating some YELLING into your white space aesthetic. It does strange THINGS to the process OF communication.

Richard Falk is not an unbiased observer. Falk served on the special interest vehicle known as the UNHCR. This organization has only directed country specific resolution regarding Israel.

Falk has also compared Israeli treatment of Palestinians to the Nazis during the Holocaust. Clearly the man has taken sides.

It get worse though. The whole UN is riddled with an anti-Israel bias.

"This year, during the 61th Session of the General Assembly (2006-2007), the time spent by ambassadors on enacting the 22nd anti-Israel resolution of the year was time not spent on passing a single resolution on Sudan's genocide in Darfur. http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.1359197/k.6748/UN_Israel__AntiSemitism.htm

Of 10 emergency special sessions called by the GA, six have been about Israel. No emergency sessions have been held on the Rwandan genocide, ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, or the two decades of atrocities in Sudan.

The Durban conference on Racism, has been suborned into another forum for those who hate Israel and the US. It is chaired by Libya and Iran this year.

So any investigation of Israel by the UN might as well be chaired by Hamas.

I have yet to see any evidence that Israel used White Phosphurus to attack military or civilian targets. I have seen WP used as a smokescreen, which is NOT even remotely the same thing.

As for depleted uranium, " An IAEA article on the issue says that while the substance "is assumed to be potentially carcinogenic ... the lack of evidence for a definite cancer risk in studies over many decades is significant and should put the results of assessments in perspective."

Furthermore, Israel denies using DU shells, which are generally designed for use against tanks and other armoured vehicles. This doesn't categorically mean Israel didn't use these shells, but Hamas claims should be treated with a healthy degree of skepticism.

Foxy, I was wondering why you only post on the left hand side of the page?

Dear Paul,

You're not the first person to ask me about why I only post on the left hand side. Leigh asked me that earlier.

As I explained, this was suggested by someone in another thread
as making posts easier to read. So, I thought, 'Great, I'll
do it.' And I did. But as it does seem to annoy more people
I'll stop. My apologies to everyone.

Now to get back to the issue of war crimes in Gaza. I raised the issue - should an investigation proceed, for the very reasons that are now being brought to light by posters. As with all war crimes tribunals in history, there is a selectiveness about what is considered a war crime and who ends up on the dock. Historically we have perpetrators who never saw the inside of a jail cell or faced criminal prosecution for their crimes against humanity.

Google 'global atrocities' and you'll come up with lists that are mind-boggling.

The truth is horrifying enough in cases of war crimes - however
there are two schools of thought generally associated with the right
and the left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse
each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to
admit the truth, and perhaps even having a hidden agenda.

So perhaps the question that needs to be asked is - which war crimes
get prosecuted? And/or which ones should be?

Thank you Foxy, the last post had clarified it for me, and I understand the nature of you question.

There have been on occasions that Allied Soldiers have been charged with war crimes: – A term you have chose is Right- Left of Politics – I dispute that and seriously, but later perhaps; - More prominent Criminal intent of Individuals , engaged in Warfare , have been dealt with – I.e. , Assault on Civilian – Sexually – Physically – summery executed etc . May criminal offences, and there is not a soul that could dispute that; - but when you take aside the obvious commonality of those convicted of war crimes; it is one sided - ;
You can use Kosovo - and Serbian forces as an example , There was never any KLA, ever charged with war crimes , Before _During – or after - only Serbian were nominated to account;

I could write books Foxy, but in essence and as brief as I can, unless it is of an independent verification, and there are Facts – of Criminal behaviour of ANY Kind by, Any Individual, and as Paul so aptly explained – The UN_ Human Rights and The Media, are, at law, are technically aid and abet the commission of crimes and have clearly obviscated their responsibility, and actively engage in false and misrepresentation of Fact.

Many would be alive if the incitement of hatred was never perpetuated by the named Institutions , thus escalating the problem and accelerating it faster.

When such evidence is found wanting and proven to be fabricated for internal and Ideological propaganda purposes, then, those responsible for that , are responsible for a more prolonged and drawn out war – and They be found guilty of War crimes ;- The Criminal intent involved , is far greater than that committed by individuals.

Use of White Phophorus? -
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5556027.ece

An example of claims made against Israeli soldiers:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/world/world/general/gaza-family-says-israeli-soldier-shot-children/1415391.aspx?storypage=0

In another article that I can't find on the www, Israeli soldiers took over the house of a Gazan family and ransacked it by puching holes in the walls for gun-firing positions, rent a large hole in the floor so as to dig up the sand underneath to fill sandbags, threw belongings and clothes in a heap on the floor and scrawled anti-Arab graffiti inside the house. The soldiers even admitted to the family they were not Hamas.

In an ABC report this morning (Philip Williams), a grove of fruit trees belonging to civilians on the outskirts of Gaza were flattened to make way for heavy Israeli tanks and equipment. The trouble is that this was the people's only source of income, thus making them even more vulnerable and dependent on international aid to survive.

While these injustices certainly won't make it to a war crimes tribunal, such bullying actions are deliberately designed to humiliate and hurt ordinary Gazans. It's little wonder that some are spurred into fighting back.

I would like to Thank Everyone for their contributions
to this thread.I'm grateful that we were able to turn
the discussion around, and I did get an insight into
differing points of view, which has been interesting.

I personally feel that there will always be perpetrators
whose horrific deeds will never see the inside of a jail
cell or face criminal prosecution for their crimes
against humanity unless there is a massive
alteration in the balance of forces in the world between
the powerful and the dispossessed. All war crime
investigations should look into both sides of any
conflict, and try those guilty of war crimes. However,
as a poster indicated earlier, truth is the first casualty of war.

I recently came across this website:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/radio/2008/11/19/horton/index2.html

It's an interview with Scott Horton on war crimes
prosecutions by Glenn Greenwald, and deals with the
question of George W. Bush and his administration.
It brings out some questions which may be of interest.

For me this discussion has now run its course.
Thanks again.

ROB P... regarding the squashing of a grove of trees.... I suggest you examine what MOHAMMAD did to the people of Ta'if when he beseiged them to force them to convert to Islam. (look it up) He did exactly that.

FOXY.. you_said:

<<Historically we have perpetrators who never saw the inside of a jail cell or faced criminal prosecution for their crimes against humanity.>>

<<Google 'global atrocities' and you'll come up with lists that are mind-boggling.>> (Noooo kidding!)

EXXXXAACTLY..which leads to the blatantly obvious_question....

<<So perhaps the question that needs to be asked is - which war crimes
get prosecuted? And/or which ones should be?>>

Which of course is just one of the many questions that armchair philosphers can so comfortably write from their mansions built on stolen aboriginal land.. (while hypcritically quite oblivious to or in denial about that fact)about events in foreign lands.

END GAME...what in this wide world is the value or point about asking these silly questions?

THIS....is where any hint of support for the HAMAS terrorists leads to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2siJCAn2tTs&feature=email

Just in case you don't actually view it.... Arabs in UK and other sympathizers at a pro Graza demonstration are yelling and laughing
"LONG LIVE HITLER"
"REST IN PEACE HITLER"
"PUT JEWS IN OVENS"
"JEWS ARE FOSSIL FUEL"

All of them are so saddened by the events of Gaza that they are LAUGHING as such things are yelled out.

In Melbourne Arab/Palestinian children are holding up signs showing "JEWS NEED MORE OF with arrows pointing to to a swastika"

Now..to be blunt to you..and MUCH more blunt (and very unapologetically with CJ Morgan)... anyone who talks about 'me' spreading fear and hate and loathing' is living in cloud cuckoo land when compared to this shameful outburst of degraded inhumanity by Muslims and Socialists on the streets of UK and Australia.

I suggest that support from threads like THIS is in reality promoting loathing of the worst kind....of Jews.

You cannot escape from the fact that you did not show any hint of even handedness at the opening of this thread and your links only mentioned ISRAEL.

Poor Israel.

Every one of it's citizens has been personally vilified for their entire lives, as were all of their ancestors.
Now the UN has been created soley to maintain that oppression on a world stage.

On top of that, the nation has never done anything wrong in it's entire history, never committed a single atrocity, always respected international law, always been open and honest with its dealings and has been the perpetual victim of religious intolerance and lies for the past six decades and anyone who disagrees is an anti-semite or a nazi.

Stories like this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/4279102/Bullets-in-the-brain-shrapnel-in-the-spine-the-terrible-injuries-suffered-by-children-of-Gaza.html
are all obviously contrived to garner undeserved sympathy for their legion of evil enemies by suggesting that civilians were deliberately targetted by their troops when the injuries were probably self-induced.

So, Porkyboaz, besides your usual ranting and raving, did you check to see whether you're banned or not?

"ROB P... regarding the squashing of a grove of trees.... I suggest you examine what MOHAMMAD did to the people of Ta'if when he beseiged them to force them to convert to Islam. (look it up) He did exactly that."

I didn't look it up (I wouldn't know where to), but it's probably true. Maybe there is a legitimate square-up going on after all.

However, did Mohammed also:

• throw Jews out of their houses and flatten them?
• fire white phosphorus at them (or do something that had the same effect)?
• kill some Jewish children indiscriminately?

Or are these the newly-minted sins of the current crop of Jews?
Is it a case of the latest sinner outdoing the former?

A war crimes tribunal should be established and the prosecution of those responsible for war crimes, on either side, should be carried out with vigour. However we have long seen that it is only the defeated that are ever called to account ...

There is no doubt that Israeli soldiers have committed war crimes. Unfortunately, the Israeli leadership has seen fit to announce that it will indemnify its soldiers against any prosecution for war crimes. This exemplifies the Israeli attitude - that might is right and, like its benefactor, the USA - it can change the rules to suit itself and ignore not only international law but ethical and humane conduct.

Unfortunately, the USA has repeatedly thumbed its nose at the UN and, in so doing, has emasculated it and made it easy for Israel to do the same. In this environment, it will be extremely difficult for any international tribunal to effect justice.

The leadership of both countries would do well to remember that state aggression will never defeat a common people fighing for survival -that's why the people won in Korea, in Cuba, in Vietnam ...

Tribunal or no, history will judge who are the criminals ...

Dear Rob P

that was an excellent response :) even though you don't know where to look...Wiki is always a good resort.

But this is most informative:
http://alislaah3.tripod.com/alislaah/id17.html

In that..you will find the TRUE nature of Islamic expansion.. via intimidation and seige.. fear of the wrath of mohammad..

It also contains the bit about him razing their vinyards.

You know the most ironic bit about that? When Mohammad visited Ta'if the first time.. he was stoned and found refuge and food IN those very vinyards some of which belonged to those who saves his LIFE!
"Scumbag/Pusbucket/Degenerate" is how many would describe anyone who does this to those who saved his life!

Now.. your_list.

Did_Mohammad.....

1/• throw Jews out of their houses and flatten_them?

2/• fire white phosphorus at them (or do something that had the same effect)?
3/• kill some Jewish children indiscriminately?

He did the equivalent of all that. But you might not accept 'my' "selective quotation of obscure ancient documents" as I'm regularly charged with using.

Look up Banu Qurayza (mass murder/enslavement of women and children)
1/ Mass murder/Genocide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayzah
dispossession of the Banu Qurnayqa, Banu Al Nadir Jewish tribes.(But he kept the houses_for_his_thugs)

2/ Murder_political_Opponents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka%27b_ibn_al-Ashraf

3/ Killing_children? well..nope..I can't find evidence for that. But he is reported to have said in the authentic oral tradition.

"Killing of women and children is permissable as long as it is not deliberate"

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/052.sbt.html

scroll to number 256 where Mohammad responds to the question about women and children killed during night raids.. "they are from them (The pagans)".. i.e.. doesn't matter.

AMAZING..Mohammad hereby approves of the Israeli night raids which kill women and children! because.. such killing was not deliberate.

Oh.. just to underline how much evil and hate permeate a lot of the Gaza protests.
See THIS!

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_tzOb0MWwfyk/SXLykLiMgrI/AAAAAAAADbk/hDyeQlawepg/s512/100_2692.JPG

"Jews need more of this"(image of swastika)

From the pro Gaza rally on Jan 18th Melbourne.

Morgan and others.. WHO the heck is inciting fear, hate and loathing here? LOOK at this sign.. and then a mirror and try to say "This is all about injustice" and keep a straight face.

On topic, the Israeli leadership saying it will indemnify soldiers suggests it knows war crimes have been committed and anticipates trouble. On the other hand, they have an election to spin.

Off topic, if the artist formerly known as Polycarp has been suspended I'd like to know why he's allowed to continue posting under another name when the forum rules say -Do not attempt to circumvent suspensions.

The rules aren't exactly specific about a lot of things, but I'd like to know why someone who consistently skates on thin ice is allowed to do so.

Keep responses on topic.
Do not flame.
Do not "shout" (use capital letters excessively).
Do not post the same message across multiple threads.
Do not attempt to circumvent suspensions.
Observe copyright and defamation laws.

This comment is off topic, true, but if I consistently flouted as many of these rules as the artist formerly known as, I would expect some consequences. Does he have a special exemption or something?

BOAZ,

I'll say one thing - you are certainly on top of your subject. Ever thought about going on the Einstein Factor?

Seriously though, it's a bit hard to separate the propaganda from the fact in your references. It's like reading the Bible, hard to determine what was real and what was fable. Are the references actually fact or maybe a bit of political posturing after the event by the Arabs to look good in history? An answer to this will help determine whether or not Israel is on the side of right.

A couple of questions:

1. Even though Jews was wronged in the past, is it not the right thing for them to forgive especially when they are now so powerful?

2. How does Israel address claims of disproportionality in its military response toward the ordinary citizens of Gaza. As ordinary Arab citizens would not have made the decision to attack ordinary Israelites in times past (their leaders would have), they don't deserve such treatment now. I understand the idea of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" but can't the cycle of resentment and killing be brought to an end? Can't Israel take the initiative here and try to live with its immediate neighbours?

Your absence - extremely short, regrettably - has done nothing to tone down your bigotry, Boaz.

And you have the utter gall to ask:

>>WHO the heck is inciting fear, hate and loathing here?<<

Herewith a small sample of your whack-a-mozzie antics since your unwelcome return. I've left intact all the spelling errors, so that everyone will know these are your comments, without having to look them up.

>>Some choose to expose [Islam's] vile nature and core.. you can call that bigotry if you like. I'll wear that as a badge of pride<<

>>[Mohammad] is reported to have said in the authentic oral tradition. "Killing of women and children is permissable<<

>>Mohammad hereby approves of the Israeli night raids which kill women and children<<

>>a group of Muslims wants to blow up the MCG during granfinal<<

>>Arabs in UK and other sympathizers at a pro Graza demonstration are yelling and laughing "LONG LIVE HITLER" "REST IN PEACE HITLER" "PUT JEWS IN OVENS" "JEWS ARE FOSSIL FUEL"<<

>>I refer you to MOHAMMAD BIN ABDULLAH founder of Islam.. to whom HAMAS looks for guidance.. as the prime example of [assassinating political opponents]<<

>>the TRUE nature of Islamic expansion [is] via intimidation and seige<<

Your hatred and loathing shines through everything you write, Boaz.

If I were a Christian, I'd be thoroughly ashamed of the association with you.

In fact, as a human being, I feel pretty much the same way.

Please, do us all a favour, and return to whatever hate-strewn lair you retreated to before.

My apologies to all for an off topic comment but I have to support the comments made by chainsmoker a couple of posts ago. Much of the diatribe and hyperbole here is not only offensive but extremely counter productive.

I am all for strong debate and understand that any topic will have peripheral issues however it seems to me that much of this discussion is more about 'Which side is right' or 'Which religion is right' or 'Which bigot is right' than about whether a war crimes investigation / tribunal should proceed.

Can we not have intelligent on-topic discussion?

From Foxy & others. "Kindly stick to the topic of this thread. Please?" which seems to mean, without saying so much. "Only what the Isrealies did, not what Hamas did."

There is video of Hamas fighters sending rockets up from the UN building that was damaged by bombing. (The Isrealies waited until the Rocket firers were back out on the street before they dropped the bombs.) Is that a war crime by Hamas? or are they allowed to do that.

The other thing is about civilian casualities. (War Crimes) I have been in a war & one thing I noticed is that most 3rd. world soldiers take their wives & children into battle with them. They prepare food, carry water & ammunition, tend the wounded husband & the children. This is their Tradition. One reason for this is that they don't want to leave them at home "unprotected" They may get raped by their neighbour. Of course when the family gets in the way & get killed they can cry "war Crime" too. This fact has to be taken into account. This problem can't be judged properly by looking at it with Western values.

Foxy.

You raised a simple question.

There seems to be sufficient clear evidence that war crimes may have been committed in Gaza by Israel, (e.g. the use made of phophorous, proportionality.)

It would therefore seem reasonable to test this through legal proceedings. Israel could then be either found innocent or forced to accept responsibility for its actions.

Foxy, do you support bringing War Crimes charges against HAMAS for indiscriminatly firing Mortars & Rockets into Isreal. A simple Yes or No will do.

"yes" or "no"

Yeh, then there is no confusion.

The definition of a War Crime includes such items as -

directing attacks against civilians,
directing attacks against humanitarian workers or UN peacekeepers,
settlement of occupied territory and
deportation of inhabitants of occupied territory.

Amnesty International previously accused Israel of War crimes during the previous Gaza incursion in 2005 (as well as accusations against Egypt, Syria and Saudi Arabia) but nothing was done about it.

There were certainly many horrific things done by the Allies during WW2 that were classified as War Crimes but these were either not fully investigated or simply not prosecuted, therefore the victor always has the final say.

Just for the record.. to keep foxy in her den :)

NO... no war crimes investigation should be carried out in respect of the Gaza incursion!

The WORLD has had many YEARS to 'act' against Hamas for it's war crimes of teaching children to hate and hurling bombs, mortars and rockets at innocent Israelis..and they have done SQUAT!

ROB P :) yes mate.. in spite of the hysterical Pericles and the yapping Morgan, both of whom know little about arguing "issues" but plenty about personal abuse...... I do know my subject.

Just one point.. you rightly suggested that it's hard to distinguish between 'propaganda' and objectivity in the sources. Now.. that is the very reason I chose the Muslim source for the seige of Taif as a reference. It is unlikely that they would try to portray Mohammad negatively. The strange thing though, is that they describe his actions..which to most clear thinking people would be an absolute abomination...yet they report it as if it were normal and nothing out of the ordinary.

Another source:
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MH_LM/campaigns_of_hunayn_and_al_taif.htm

scroll to the heading 'destruction of al Ta'if's Orchards'

It's an Islamic source. (shhhh.. don't tell Pericles it might cause him to enjoy dusting)

Your questions.

1/ "Forgive". Actually... it doesn't look like the Jews do much remembering of those past events..... they speak of security and right to exist rather than the events of Khayber and the such like.
So..I don't think they are particularly high in the secular Israeli mind.
2/ "Disproportionate". let me answer this with a question :) (no I'm not Jewish) "if"....they simply sent back as many rockets as they received " (up to 100/day) you know.."eye for an eye"... and they disabled the guidance systems....
Do you feel this would contribute to peace ? :)

Pericles... I draw your attention to the SIGN held up in Melbourne by the Muslim child! This matter is now with the Police.

"Jews need (Swastika symbol)MORE than before"

Nothing 'anti-Arab' at the Pro Israel rally on Jan8!

What an amazing bundle of contradictions you are, Boaz.

First I find this:

>>Pericles.. whack a mozzie ? *click* on "ignore".<<

Fair enough. I can understand that my observations were a little too close to the bone for comfort, so I would naturally expect you to pretend that you hadn't noticed.

But then there's this:

>>(shhhh.. don't tell Pericles it might cause him to enjoy dusting)<<

Whatever that might signify.

But wait, there's more.

>>Pericles... I draw your attention to the SIGN held up in Melbourne by the Muslim child! This matter is now with the Police. "Jews need (Swastika symbol)MORE than before"<<

Your point being, I guess, that if it is ok for Muslim children to vilify Jews, it is perfectly ok for a middle-aged Christian to vilify Muslims?

That seems to sum up your position rather neatly, I think.

But just for the record, I hold the person who waves such a sign in equal contempt.

I think you should do the same, and re-evaluate your own behaviour along the same lines.

I.e., "if I consider that what the Muslim child is doing is wrong, what does that say about my own whack-a-mozzie activities?"

But once again, Boaz, I expect that it is too painful for you to contemplate fully.

So off you go, "*click* on 'ignore'"

There, that feels better, doesn't it?

Jayb,

Against my better judgement I am going to reply to you.
Why against my better judgement? Because from your posts
you've obviously made up your mind about me, which is
unfortunate - had you bothered to read all of my posts,
you wouldn't have to ask me any further questions.

In this thread my aim was definitely not to take sides.
Or finger point. I had no hidden agenda. I raised a simple
question, should an independent investigation into war crimes
in Gaza proceed? It was quite a revelation to learn that by
asking such a simple question - to even dare to bring it up -
upset some people. In response I was accused of being against
Israel. I won't use the term 'anti-Semitic,' because Arabs
are Semites too.

I don't support bringing war crimes charges against Israel or
Hamas. I stand by what I said earlier,

"...war crimes in Gaza should be justly and fairly investigated
by an independent international body and their findings and
recommendations recorded." This does not limit the scope simply
to Israel as one poster suggested. Until all the facts are
available and determined by an independent body as to whether
a case for war crimes exists - assumptions should not be made,
one way or the other.

Certainly not by me.

Have a nice day.

Wobbles, JayB, Meredith.

Sadly in the Gaza there are no victors Just victims.
The victors aren't determining the outcome here it is the US who has and will continue to veto in defence of Israel. Russia, China for the Arabs. Its all about perceived international interest otherwise the issue would have been resolved years ago.

Nobody has clean hands in this human catastrophe including Australia (governments). We supported US for our own perceived interests i.e. maintaining primarily the US/Australian alliance and the Jewish lobby’s electoral power here.
No! No and no again I am neither biased ,anti- Semitic or anti-Palestine I am calling the reality who is right/wrong in this particular incursion is moot. The powers that be don’t want to open this can of vipers less they get bitten too (shown to have some culpability).

The reality is that Israel knows as does all the all those even peripherally involved that "total war" would mean unleashing a conflagration that would be of the order of Nostradamus’ arcane quatrains.

Better we play proxy wars until one side perceives that it is no longer in their interests to continue with this immoral abomination. Meanwhile each side pretends (spins) to be the peace makers meanwhile the pawns jockey for the moral(PR) highground. Don’t you just love the way we’ve evolve away from caveman instincts when one on one with clubs was the barberic solution?

Dear examinator,

Beautifully put.

Thank you.

And Thanks to ALL the voices of reason on this
thread.

You're the ones that make me want to continue
posting. Otherwise I would have been tempted
to leave ages ago.

Fair enough Foxy

There is another reason why a war crimes tribunal is a pipedream in the current Israel/Hamas situation.

To have an effective process, both sides have to cough up the fighters that have done the crimes. As mentioned earlier, Hamas do not fight under a national flag and Gaza/Palestine is not a nation state. Where is the military hierarchy or domestic structure by which their fighters can be found and brought to trial? The only way is for a foreign force to identify the whereabouts of the person concerned (they probably don't get cash out of the ATM or use credit cards under their own name and are therefore hard to find) and do an extraction. That might be hard to do without causing other problems. Also, I don't know how effectively Mossad can operate in Gaza.

On the Israeli side, they will use every trick in the book to keep their soldiers out of the international spotlight. When someone in The Hague puts out a summons for Captain X of the Israeli military, you can bet your bottom dollar that Israel will fight tooth and nail to keep him out of court. Israel's ultimate trump card is its alliance with the US and the power of veto it has at the UN.

So, there won't be a war crimes tribunal in an official sense as long as the US and Israel are so strong. Behind the scenes, who knows. It depends on the pressure that's brought to bear.

I disagree, I think Israel is under constant attack and as I have said somewhere else before, no world leader with any sense of decency will support terrorism, Hamas, you just can't do it.

That Israel are a more healthy country isn't a crime to their neighbors... that they are there isn't a crime, it actually their spiritual land and they were gifted it back after ww2... it is their Mabo.

It's unbelievably sad the Palestinians have voted Terrorism in, maybe either from ignorance or desperation or both.
Hezbollah(sp)on other end is also unacceptable, until these guy over come (with western help if needed) terrorist governments and bully malitias there can't be peace. It is like Israel says to the Pali's.... Hamas is your enemy not Israel.

I actually feel a bit ashamed sitting here in Australia posting to a blog about a war that is so fresh. It feels wankerish.

I know a lady with some grand kids in Isael, she doesn't really talk politics as we all have on this string, she talks terror, she is terrorized

Hi all, i'm new so be gentle with me.just looking at the gaza war crimes debate, good stuff but as a baby boomer I seem to have been taught a different history and I wonder how far back some of the forum members are able to go? 1967? 1948? 1920? 1445? Just interested as context to the current debate. Or is this getting off the current thread?

spindoc

Remember it was Israel and the US who funded and helped create Hamas in the first place - just like the US who sponsored and maintained Saddam Hussein, the Shah and almost every other despot in the region and later paid the price.

Now after all the post-Iraq-invasion bleating about "sponsoring democracy in the region" as a cure for all that had gone wrong, the legally elected Palestinian government has strayed from the script and now must be removed.

Pericles, don't waste your data allocation. Anybody who seriously sanctions the torture of women and children as an anti-terrorism tool has already clearly nailed his colours to the mast.

Dear Pericles. (ok..ur off 'ignore' for now)

<<Your point being, I guess, that if it is ok for Muslim children to vilify Jews, it is perfectly ok for a middle-aged Christian to vilify Muslims?>>

We are not talking about vilification here re this Muslim child.

We are speaking about:

1/ CHILD ABUSE. (how can a child that age know about the holocaust? or the meaning of such symbolism to adult Jews, specially those like friends of mine who's parents were gassed and burned?

2/ ILLEGAL HATE SPEECH.... the sign held up by that child. (clearly with the permission/participation of the parent)

Then..you seem to equate this with my references to specific teaching in Islamic holy books..where I can, and have,- shown..that my understanding is no different from major respected scholars of that faith......
Example: Ismael Ibn Kathir is very clear that 9:30 means christian and Jews must be degraded.. in disgrace.. humiliated.. to remind them of their objectionable and sinful beliefs.

But you equate me mentioning THAT, with a child holding up a sign calling for Jews to be GASSED? (By implication of the Swastika)
That is where you become too fuzzy in your thinking to deal with.. hence the *ignore* button.

We just go through this cycle.

I claim "rational argument and facts"

But you just see "rabble rousing cos I knowz it when I seez it"

Kinda thing.

A much better approach is to challenge what I SAY not why you think I say it.

Challenge Ismael Ibn Kathir.. AbuL Ala Maududi... challenge the Quran... the hadith.. see if I am correctly understanding them....

aaaah.. THAT is the way out.

It is not the 'way out' though... to quote from early passages in the Quran which are abrogated by later ones :) aaah..THAT is Kayser Trad, ICV, territory and standard Islamic apologist methodology.

It just happens to be wrong.

ROB P.. ur absolutely right.. war crimes tribunals are a pipe dream for the Middle East.
I could envisage all manner of Arab intervention (including the oil weapon) if "Good" Muslims were treated as war criminals by we "infidels"

"That Israel are a more healthy country isn't a crime to their neighbors... that they are there isn't a crime, it actually their spiritual land and they were gifted it back after ww2... it is their Mabo."

meredith,

This is a fair comment. However, it's also fair to say that the land the Palestinians are on is their spiritual land also.

The big problem here is the disparity in size, power and intellectual development between the two sides which are being crammed together into a piece of land the size of a sardine tin, figuratively speaking.

Apparently Henry Kissinger warned the US Administration about 4 decades ago that putting a highly developed state like Israel into the same small strip of land along with millions of other very differently-minded Arabs was a recipe for future problems. He turned out to be right.

As suspected Boaz, just your usual obfuscation.

>>We are not talking about vilification here re this Muslim child. We are speaking about: 1/ CHILD ABUSE... 2/ ILLEGAL HATE SPEECH...<<

I'll ignore your traditional red herring - child abuse is not even particularly convincing, though - and wish you well with your bid to prosecute the placard itself. It will be an interesting free speech/hate speech test.

But your attempt to make some kind of distinction between blatantly inflammatory placards on the one hand and blatantly inflammatory pseudo-intellectualizing about bloody surah bloody nine (not again!) on the other, is an utter furphy.

>>you equate me mentioning THAT, with a child holding up a sign calling for Jews to be GASSED? (By implication of the Swastika)<<

Yes, Boaz, I do.

Vilification does not start and end with nasty placards.

Mosley proved that. Here he is, rousing his own particular rabble...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zD5Xce2o98&NR=1

Mosley's message was essentially that Jews and other foreigners were despoiling the Britain that he knew and loved. Much like the Boaz message, "learn to be just like me, or go back where you came from".

Your intention, now as always, is to fire up fear and loathing against Muslims. If you are unable to see that your approach is equally as culpable as a placard-waving toddler, then I feel very sorry for you.

Dear_Perilous :) ur back on *ignore* for a while now.. that was plain silly.

MARXIST Norwegian DOCTOR FEEDS ANTI SEMITISM ABOUT GAZA.

http://www.kabobfest.com/2009/01/mads-gilbert-norwegian-doctor-in-gaza.html

Mads Gilbert.. radical marxist made this statement on WORLD Tv...

"This is not a conflict against an army...this is an ALL OUT WAR against the CIVILIAN population of Gaza"

Now.. ALL OUT is ludicrous. If Israel wanted to have an ALL out war..there would be nothing of Gaza left. HE LIED!

Not only that..HE LIED TO THE WORLD!

More..his lie is MONSTROUS in it's dimensions.

More..his LIE has had a devasating effect with many Muslims calling for Jews to be sent back to the ovens and death camps.. USA.. UK.. Australia..

Any such person..OR the PARENT of such a person if they are with them, should be DEPORTED forthwith. (to Gaza)

He also claims that out of all the wounded and killed..he saw ONE person of a Military type.

How many people in the West have been influenced by this nominally high credibility 'Compassionate Western Doctor' helping the 'poor victims in Gaza'?

WHERE THE HELL was this doctor when rockets were being hurled at the towns of Israel?

I just hope that all viewers of the events in Gaza will take stock of who is feeing them information and what their motive might be.

How much of the call for WAR CRIMES INVESTIGATIONS are being orchestrated and promoted by the evil likes of mad Marxist Dr Mads Gilbert and his henchmen thugs?

Foxy.. were you sucked in by that kind of coverage? I have a feeling you were.

ROB P... it only became the 'spiritual' land of the Arabs after 637 when the Caliph invaded :) I think those who were the victims of that invasion have a moral right to address it..even in 1948.

"TALKING POINT" if the Arabs consider the children of refugees born AFTER the exile to be equally refugees.. then the Jews have as much right to regard present day descendants of previous exiles as refugees to be resettled in their ancestral land. The ancestral land of the Arabs is Arabia not Israel.

BOAZ,

All I can say about Arab/Jew relations over the past few thousand years is that it is a Pandora's Box, a veritable Russian dolls scenario of layers within layers within layers. One's viewpoint can be coloured by who did what to whom in a particular historical context without necessarily being alive to what the causative historical precedents might have been. This can lead to a certain one-sidedness in analysis that could quite easily be right in one sense but quite wrong in another. On top of that, many people, me included at times, use events to make commentary on how I see and would do things, not how they are for the people concerned.

I'm pretty sure about one thing though: every action has an equal an opposite reaction, the only variables being when the threads of karma snap back their originators and how. But I'm no historical scholar and am not good enough to untangle and make sense of the mess (I wonder if anyone is?). I'll leave that to life to play out.

The way I see it is that Hamas leaders and members should be tried in the Hague as terrorists. Israels leaders and soldiers should be tried in the Hague as war criminals.

Indeed ROB.. well said... ultimately that is my own goal.. to bring any discussion which 'begins' with 'Arabs good...Israel bad'...or.. Israel good....Arabs bad' to the point where people realize just like you...that it becomes a tangled mess of religion, history and politics.... and each side can pick and choose their own starting point to support their view.

That's why I've been so vehement on this thread.. as I sensed that underneath the whitewash of 'objectiveness/I'm not taking sides' by our illustrious and dear Foxiness :) based on past exchanges, there was a definite agenda... in spite of denials.

The best thing is let them sort it out....

I can empathize with the Israeli/Jewish view more than the radical Arab for a couple of reasons.

1/ I am rather deeply immersed in the sense of history from the Old testament, and when I see some name places in Israel today.. my eyes just about mist over with a sense of connection..and I'm not Jewish.

2/ Yesteday there was news story about the Jews of one polish town.. the total was around 60,000 prior to Hitlers 'final solution'...there were only a handful which escaped that 'solution'...

Most of the people in Israel today over the age of 50, would have either lost siblings.. family or know someone who did in that horrible time.

With such memories so close to their hearts.. one is not surprised that when they read things like "The last hour will not come unless the Muslims kill the Jews" in the Hamas Charter (articles of Assodciation)...they see it with a considerably more focused mind than we might.

I'll be honest.. I have less than zero compassion or regard for HAMAS as a political organization. It is nothing more than the Wafen SS revisited to me and with the same objectives.

I believe the Jews will regret that they did not go right to the HAMAS leadership at the hospital bunker..drag them out and execute them 100%
....harsh as that might sound.

yep, there's nothing wrong with not sitting on the fence.

Boaz, I have some influence from my ww2 vet grandfather re giving Israel back to the Jews too.

Also though, it for me (and I loath intellectualising over a war it's prattish of me) if various anti Israeli terrorists groups stopped the constant bombing of Israel, I believe that Israel would not attack back. I wouldn't take my boot of your head if you were just going to get up and start punching me again, not until I was sure I was safe.

I think it is Hamas and Hezbollah who are the ones responsible for their peoples deaths.

Not everyone in the world sees Israel in the same innocent victim way.

Despite initial media lies, it was actually Israel that broke the truce, not Hamas. The town od Sderot that was subsequently "barraged by rockets" in retaliation was formerly Palestinian territory and those rockets actually came from the West Bank - not Gaza.

The whole incident was planned by Israel at least 12 months ago, the response deliberately provoked for local political purposes and timed to coincide with that grey period during the changeover of the US Administration.

The (Jewish) MP from Britain makes some interesting points.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=m9mkRiGbgZg&eurl=http://whatreallyhappened.com/&feature=player_embedded

If 50 year-old siblings of people who endured events events that happened ten years before they were born are somehow traumatised, what then of those children suffering today?

How will this possibly change anything for the better?

Dear Wobbles...nothing quite gets me going as much as posts like yours.

"ROCKETS CAME FROM WEST BANK" .. Evidence? Links?

LOOK at yourself! .. r u a complete dill?

Why in this wide world.. are you trying to tie down blame on Israel by scrutinizing small incidents which seem to fit your own 'deliberately planned' attempt to sanitize a regime which in it's OWN words has declared a GENOCIDAL intent toward Jews and ISrael?

HOW.. in the world....can you ignore CLEARER words than Mein Kampf in the Articles of Association of Hamas which call for, and dedicate to, the complete destruction not just of Israel but of JEWS.

"The last hour will not come unless the Muslims KILL KILL KILL the Jews" (yes..it's only mentioned once,- "kill", but you are so thickheaded and dare I say it 'ignorant' that you simply don't see this.

What is wrong with your thought processes? Are you retarded?

If someone says "I am planning to kill you and your family because I don't like what you stand for, and as soon as I'm strong enough...I'm going to DO it" then..I hurl a few molotiv cocktails at your house.. but none actually destroy you......

ARE YOU so dumb, dull, and deluded that you don't think they are actually planning to DO what they've already promised to do?

Honestly.. you must have some kind of medical condition.. mental illness? some kind of deficiency which might be described as 'Dissociative disorder'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_disorders

Yours is a variation of the symptoms. You simply 'dissociate' the genocide planned by HAMAS from them, and then (for reasons only known to yourself) you do a 'morality inversion' and try to connect these traits to Israel.

This is the BIGGGGGG picture. If you_don't understand it.. please refrain from posting your lame, isolated anecdotes which seek to blame the target rather than the perpetrator.

If you think I'm being overly harsh.. HOW do you understand the significance of "The Muslims must kill the Jews" as contained in the HAMAS articles of association?

Oh wait.. I think I get it.... you ALSO want Israel destoyed?

Boazy, resorting to personal attacks now?

OK let’s get it on.

In the first case, words are somewhat less fatal than WMDs. How then, does this Palestinian Holocaust Memorial event – for some reason ignored by our media – fit in with your hate-filled view of the world?

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=35355

Unlike you, I haven’t taken sides I’m not saying for a minute that only one side is to blame – just that one side is not completely free of blame.

You are in fact, the one who is entirely blaming the victim, not me.

How can you discriminate between say, Holocaust victims and drowned refugees – both were innocent political victims of their time. You treat one group as martyrs and the other as “in the past, can’t bring them back, time to move on”. Odd?

Selective compassion or selective hatred?

Why is the China/Tibet or Indonesia/ East Timor aggression treated so differently from what’s happening here?

Oh that’s it. They’re Muslims so they must be, by definition, evil! You’re prepared to torture them without trial on this basis alone. I bet you fantasise about your own version of a Final Solution for them.
You can find all the nasty bits of the Koran but conveniently ignore or brush aside all the same parts of the Talmud or the Bible.

I may be a dill but you’re a pathological bigot.

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I’ve got no hatred against Jews. 14% of Israel is not even Jewish and you may have noticed that many Jews have demonstrated against this action, both from inside their country and internationally.

I have absolutely no desire for Israel "to be destroyed". I just want them to abide by the same international rules as everybody else. I don't think they are entitled to be treated differently from other nations. You're trying to put words into my mouth too?

You are the one who judges the members of an entire belief system on the basis of the actions of a few. I’m only criticising the disproportionate response of a sovereign state against an already oppressed and dispossessed group.

I’m only pointing out that the allegations surrounding the breaking of the alleged cease-fire were contrived and manipulated for other purposes. Sometimes politicians lie and people die.

Al Aqsa have been firing rockets into Israel from Yabed and Northern Samaria, which are on the West Bank. Some links are back at work on my office PC but why bother? You just ignore anything that doesn’t fit into your version of reality. Ignore mere facts as “small incidents.. isolated anecdotes” and challenge them with technicalities? I thought it was called history.

You accuse one entire group of not living up to the same moral standards that even you can’t meet yourself and that makes you not only a hypocrite, but considering the moral superiority you wrap yourself up in, one of the worst kind.

I would normally blame the heat down there, but I think this is a permanent state of mind and getting worse.

I'd keep going but, if the written word means as much as you claim, it's almost the Sabbath and I wouldn't want to be stoned to death for working on that day.