It would appear that the UN Security Council is NOT prepared to make a decision for implementing a cease-fire in Gaza, due to the US and it`s interests blocking any vote to end the ongoing mass murder of men, women and children currently trapped within the confines of Gaza!

The continued exchange of human life in the percentages of 1 Israeli soldier for around 10 Palestinian`s cannot be allowed to go on!

This issue has been engulfing the area since around 1947 when the Jewish displaced peoples were sanctioned by the Balfour Treaty aided and abetted by Britain, to annex part of the Palestinian homeland and set up their own Jewish State of Israel.

Regardless of the legitimacy of the establishment of a Jewish State on foreign land, this issue has created a state of war between the Palestinians and the Israelis` which has been ongoing for 63 years and has cost many thousands of innocent lives on both sides!

The Jewish State has gained increasing strength by it`s accession of some of the most modern and sophisticated weaponry available in today`s marketplace, thanks to the continued support of the US and some of it`s allies!

This situation has got to end, swiftly and with a minimum of casualties on both sides! The cessation of hostilities can only be implemented with a direct order from the UN Security Council, who now must stop dithering and implement this action immediately, if the world is to continue it`s belief in the sanctity of the Geneva Convention and the continued justifiable existence of the UN Security Council!

Dear Cuphandle... I cannot for the life of me gain a 'handle' on your SOLUTION... All I found in your post was whining, with a tiny bit at the end
-"this must end"
-"Direct order from the Security Council"

Now.... that my friend is not a 'solution'. If it was...it would have worked for the various genocides in many places within the last decade or 2. Rwanda... Southern Sudan...Dafur etc..

WHY THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL CANNOT FIX the problem.... simple.. it consists of individual countries with interests and alliances.

The other problem with the UN coming up with a 'statement' on the issue is the BIAS and attempts by the Arab groups to include condemnation of Israel and NO condemnation of Hamas. "That" is why they are being vetoe'd.

A REAL SOLUTION. (For the Gaza situation only)

1/ Agreement to have International, NON partisan monitors on the Egypt/Gaza border.

2/ Monitors cannot be: a) Jewish b)Muslim c) be from countries dominated by either of those groups. d)Socialists.

3/ Agreement to immediately and mutually cease ALL hostilities....Hamas Rockets and Israeli bombing.

4/ Handing over of all remaining Rockets to the U.N. for destruction.

5/ Opening of border crossings. (strict controls of what can and cannot be imported..conditional on this freedom NOT resulting in homicide bombers.)
6/ Israeli withdrawal.

7/ International efforts to reconstruct damage.

PROBLEM SOLVED?.

"In our dreams"..but it's the best I can come up with at the moment.

Khalid Mashal HAMAS.

* "Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing. Apologize today, before remorse will do you no good. Our nation is moving forwards, and it is in your interest to respect a victorious nation."[27]

* "Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day."

Aaaah...the words of conciliation and peace :) "NOT"

I don't blame Israelis for not accepting that they are bombarded
with rockets and should not respond. I certainly would!

Meantime, I accept that those who lost land to Israel, have a valid
complaint and I don't blame them for being pissed off.

Given that its a bit difficult to turn back the clock and chase
all Israelis into the sea, it seems only fair that any Palestinians
who lost land to Israel, should be fully compensated with interest.

The UN isnt really viable anymore.
Once China and Russia became the quiet powers with veto on what they wanted... it was over at the UN.

Please cuphandle take a breath.
The UN has never been able to enforce its rulings.
You must know that, both sides are unlikely to act other than with self interest.
I am well aware just how sad it is ,but can not, now or ever, take on face value the reports of Israeli crimes.
Lies pure lies have been entrenched tools in this part of the world.
One side truly, honestly, hides weapons amung civilians, uncaring if deaths occur.
In fact using those deaths as a weapon too.
Remember that war that saw the Jewish state grow, was a surprise attack from the other side.
Think about the schools training kids to die, be human bombs, how can you trust such people?
Trading in the lives of their own family's to fuel a hate driven war.
While I want peace in the middle east no shame I stand with Israel, end the murder bombs, all of them first.

The problems in this part of the Middle East are diabolical. The Palestinians have to carry out this type of guerilla activity to continue to prod Israel to give them a fair go and Israel needs to obliterate all resistance to fully protect its citizens. At the moment, I believe it's about 1 Israeli death to 20 or more Palestinians', similar to the statistics between the Nazis and the ordinary resistance fighters in WWII. The situation is escalating like a positive feedback loop. On one side Palestinians are humiliated and vengeful, while Israel is paranoid and arrogant.

The situation is so intractable that the only way it's going to end, sadly, is when they have exhausted all their energy, vendettas, and reasons to carry on.

The UN are a complete sideshow in all of this. It's just an excuse for a few high-profile diplomats to pretend to be statesmen, Tony Blair in particular. All that a buch of bureaucrats can usefully do is to pick the low hanging fruit diplomatically speaking. Once things get a little bit tough, I'm sure we'll see how inconsequential and irrelevant they really are.

Yabby,

To add to your point about the Palestinians having their land stolen, the wall that was recently built to separate the two, goes right through existing Palestinian land. A fellow at work told me he saw a TV show where a Palestinian olive grove was basically bulldozed and the wall put through it. That's pretty bad when it's your whole livelihood down the drain.

Khalid Mashaal said:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/31/comment.israelandthepalestinians

<<We shall never recognise the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights>>

SO... did Jews ROB Palestinians of "their" land?

I agree that more recently, (maybe the past 2 decades) this has been happening. (settlers)

But.. when Israel was formed.. it was not the case.(it appears)

1936 TO 1948

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZegY3BztIc&feature=related

Who opened hostilities against who? "Arabs rejected the (very fair) partition plan and declared war"

Palestinian refugees were made refugees BECAUSE of that war the Arabs declared.

*"Arabs rejected the (very fair) partition plan and declared war"*

Err Poly, if somebody owned that land and it was taken, no matter
how fair you think it was, they deserve to be compensated with
interest. That is fair.

Yabby.....I quite agree.. but the point is.. at the beginning...when the partition was enacted.. no land had been 'taken'.... the only thing the partition mean't was who is governing. That is not the same as land being taken.

The land was bought by Jewish immigrants.

Only after the Arabs declared war on Jews was their massive displacement of people.. no compensation is needed in such circumstances.

If I declare war on you because you do things I don't like..and in the end..I lose... and am punished by the loss of some of my property.. errrr how do you see ME deserving compensation for that?

I can't see it.

It also depends on whether particular villages or populations were 'driven' off their land, or whether they simply abandoned it.

Then there is the question of EQUAL compensation for all Jews who were driven out of Arab regions..

Compensation ? sure.. EQUALLY for all parties :)

I don't blame Israelis for not accepting that they are bombarded
with rockets and should not respond either but one thing is clear.

They want the whole of their land back which was stollen from them.

Give it to them and relocate those effected to wherever they choose and pay 'them real compensation. Make it well and truly worth their while. Expensive but so are wars. They must remember its not their land and although they and their familes are victims of what happend years ago we should be doing the right thing in order to bring world peace.

Would that then be the end to it? Who knows but it would at least give everybody a real chance to end this once and for all.

Before you ask yes I do have some idea of how many people and familes that would involvee but if the UN are serious its the only way.
After that if they keep fighting- Well thats different.

Then I think we can say we tried and others have the right to defend themselves and should not hestitate to use full force within a heartbeat.

According to, The Guardian, Tuesday 6 Jan. 2009,
Khalid Mish'al sums up the situation thus:

"For six months we in Hamas observed the
ceasefire. Israel broke it repeatedly from
the start. Israel was required to open crossings
to Gaza, and extend the truce to the West Bank.
It proceeded to tighten its deadly siege of
Gaza, repeatedly cutting electricity and water
supplies. The collective punishment did not
halt, but accelerated, as did the assassinations and
killings. Israel enjoyed a period of calm.
Our people did not."

"For 18 months my people in Gaza have been under
siege, incarcerated inside the world's biggest
prison, sealed off from land, air and sea, caged
and starved, denied even medication for our sick.

After the slow death policy came the bombardment.
In this most densely populated of places, nothing
has been spared Israel's warplanes, from
government buildings to homes, mosques, hospitals,
schools and markets. More than 540 have been killed
and thousands permanently maimed. A third are women
and children. Whole families have been massacred, some
while they slept.

When this broken truce neared its end, we expressed our
readiness for a new comprehensive truce in return for
lifting the blockade and opening all Gaza border
crossings, including Rafah. Our calls fell on deaf ears.

Yet still we would be willing to begin a new truce on
these terms following a complete withdrawal of the
invading forces from Gaza.

No rockets have ever been fired from the West Bank.
But 50 died and hundreds more were injured there...

We are meant to be content with shrinking scraps of
territory, a handful of cantons at Israel's mercy,
enclosed by it from all sides. The truth is Israel
seeks a one-sided ceasefire, observed by my people
alone...

The logic of those who demand that we stop our resistance
is absurd. They absolve the aggressor and occupier -
armed with the deadliest weapons of death and destruction -
of responsibility, while blaming the victim, prisoner,
and occupied.

Our modest, home-made rockets are our cry of protest to
the world..."

You can read the entire article on:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-hamas

Mulling over decisions made by past generations, long since dead, to determine the flaws, supposedly now apparent, is as insightful a process as eugenics.

Why should someone determine to cast a line in the sand at a moment immediately prior to the Balfour Declaration and decide that the then prevailing Status Quo was anything absolute?

It is a very silly idea

As silly as suggesting, following the end of WWII, that the correct political division of Poland was that defined in the Molotov -Ribbentrop pact of 1939.

“This situation has got to end, swiftly and with a minimum of casualties on both sides!”

Well it could have been avoided almost entirely if the Palestinians would come to the table and remove expectations of “Israeli annihilation” as a prerequisite.

As to “minimum of casualties”

In the short or long term?

Certainly the situation has absorbed the minds and reputations of many politicians over time.

The Israelis have a simple choice, finish it now or have more people die at the hands of another generation of Palestinians weaned on a diet which includes of an overdeveloped sense of entitlement based on the myth of supposed wrongs done to past generations.

Politics is not about absolutes it is merely the art of the possible

Stated Palestinian demands and aspirations are not a basis for future peace or anything which will ever be possible.

Palestinians need to take that simple fact on board before they cause any more deaths.

“if the world is to continue it`s belief in the sanctity of the Geneva Convention and the continued justifiable existence of the UN Security Council”

Oh grownups have long understood the nature of UN and its organs, security council included.

UN is the “paper tiger” of Chinese jokes and derision.

I find it hard to believe that people still make reference to any of its edicts, resolutions or conventions and expect to be taken seriously.

WHO BROKE THE CEASEFIRE? aaaah.. a vexing question....

what is the nature of 'break'?

Is it Palestinians digging a secret tunnel from inside a house near the Kissufim crossing? (5/11/08)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=1034307

Is it IDF forces entering Gaza to shutdown this violating tunnel?

The reader must judge.... it seems to me that it just depends on which side of the (literal) fence one is on. But digging tunnels appears to be a 'first act of provocation' which deserves an appropriate response.

YABBY... you keep on saying that the partition plan 'stole' land.

I disagree.. all it did was change the government.. it did not involve changing titles from Arab to Jew forcibly.

All it mean't was that the Arabs in the Israeli section would be paying taxes to an Israeli government and not an Arab.

As the whole thing (post rejection of the partition and declaration of war by the Arabs) went to the crapper...of course contingency plans to reduce the now proven Arab threat were needed..and THEN.. (as far as I understand it) certain Arab villages/towns were pretty much 'ethnically cleansed' and their land allocated to Israeli interests.

MAP TIME. This map shows territory taken by Israelis after the Arabs made war against the partition plan...

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/maps/hist_arab.html

The ironic and sickly hilarious part about this map is..that they whine about "In violation of the partition plan"....

WHAT?.. it was the Arabs who REJECTED that plan and declared WAR.....

Forgive me for a bit of a 'poetic justice' feeling here..but if you

-Reject a plan for peace.
-Declare war on the other mob.
-Lose that war.

It seems weird to then say "The other mob is violating the plan" (which we rejected) ....

well i see yet another bite at the cherry,by the usual-suspects

as to who broke the ceasefire[as i allready posted it was israel[attacks on plalistein fishermen,farmers etc from the first day,regular attacks on stone throwing youths,bombing old people in wheel chairs,the full list is endless,there has NEVER BEEN a ceasefire

there is one solution

if these god forsaken lands really are'holy'then remove every weapon of war from it,forget talmud based law,and put the terror-tory under international law[and forbid the training of war ever more]

what about thou shalt not murder dont you regular israelie/islamist enabelers not get,..90 billion of us aid has only ensured more murder,..this aid has done just what..to make you feel safer

but this pathetic murder game over land goes on;israel means literally wars on god;islamb means follow gods way

seems that we all are playing name games[jesus said by their deeds will we know them]im knowing too much about both of'them'

EDITED and still it dont feel safe yet many settlers under talmud law,CHOSE to live in the danger zone[even worse chose to bring their children INTO A DANGER ZONE..[despite this only 17 deaths[much is made of a pipe bomb taking out a child center[unoccupied]yet down played is taking out a un refugee camp killing 55..[the latest number]

one third of the hamas/deaths are children,and in time all will be asked to account their works[why do you insist there is any innocent party here[israel founded hamass to counter fatah,it plays both sides of the fence,by owning the media[these i have proved on previous links

why are these mudering nutters allowed to keep pedeling their hate because they own politics and banking,and media and health[but its the elites ruling over the goys..,a goy is anyone not in the know[including those of you thinking its us against you]

if israel is to ever be gods holy?land...teach the way of peace

if god isnt love then you wrong god,..and if your not loving life that only the true god can give,your not gods 'peepoles',just your every day delusional murderers,..you are what you love,;even to phocopathic phycophantsmore shall be given

*if god isnt love then you wrong god,..*

Ah UOG, it just shows how much humans could learn from bonobos.

If the various tribes all made love together and forget religion,
they would all get along just fine!

Those ancestors which you deny, are not so silly after all :)

in this case we are in agreement

we can agree to disagree with evolution[god may well have done it as you think,;via evolving..[but my point re that is science hasnt]..but the rest of this post wont be up your street so to speak,

but back to these people claiming to know god

thinking rital,and rite and blood sacrifice to be pleasing to the creator of all life[who seem to have forgotten this is satans realm]

who via their own holy texts reveal the one constant ,they got god wrong throughout time[even when the messiah delivers the new covenant[love god love neighbour]

yet they still feel the need to hold as sacred the added mans laws added to the ten commands,indeed dare exploiate gods words into talmudic lore

like where god clearly says that adulterating gods laws,..they convert it into adultery as an excuse to stone people..,only further adulterating gods words

even adulterating the messiahs words[putting upon the messiah miracles where blind freddy can see that if jesus says it is not yet my time

[it means he didnt convert the most unholy hand wash water into wine[that his disbelieving nation of judeans held sacred the rite of handwashing abouve spiritual cleanlyness[it is not what a man puts into his mouth that makes him unclean but that which issues forth from it]

thus non judeans see as a miracle 5000 not eating because they have dirty hands[because there is no mention of hand wash ritual jars on the mount]thus they ate all they wished

[because their FAITH in the ritual,they refused to eat,not wishing to be stoned by their own,no doudt[very clever move sitting them facing each other][no one dared to eat[that would have spoiled the messiah's teaching]

but they didnt get god and they didnt get their messiah

[now they hope to bring on the messiah LOL]what for ?to destroy a people israel equates to rats trapped in a prison camp?,...jesus weeps

he came to unite his fathers divided house

now xtians think the mnessiah is the father
[then divided the house of the son]...lol

one under God please take this as it is intended, your posts are out there mate.
Some of the words you are using are even further away, are you sure you look at them before posting?
Not sure you understand your Holy book, you do know your Christ said the Jews are his chosen people don't you?
I am afraid, truly, every thread is coming back to religion.
So many will just ignore your posts but sometimes I read them.
Never totally understand them, but I am the last to complain about spelling and such, its content I question.
Given the rocket attacks have begun from Lebanon, we may be hours away from a full blown war, do not wait for your God, he is not coming.

belly i will reply the lebinon issue first

>>Shiite MP denies Hezbollah's involvement in s. Lebanon rockets
On December 28 2008

Lebanese Shiite MP Ali Khrais said Saturday that the Katyusha rockets dismantled by the Lebanese army in south Lebanon is not related to the resistance work of Hezbollah, ANB TV reported."Suspected elements who planted the rockets are not related in any way to the resistance work," Khrais said in an interview.

Khrais, a member of the Parliamentary block headed by Amal leader and Speaker Nabih Berri, who is a key ally to Hezbollah, said that "the suspected Katyusha rockets found in south Lebanon were planted to destabilize the security situation."

Hezbollah was accused by pro-government leaders of deploying the rockets in south Lebanon to pressure Israel into lifting the blockade imposed on Gaza.

The Lebanese army dismantled Thursday eight rockets set to be launched against Israel from Naqoura area which overlooks northern Israeli regions.

The army and the UNFIL forces are currently conducting an investigation to determine who is behind the Katyusha rockets dismantled by the Lebanese army in south Lebanon.

During an inspection visit to the south of Lebanon on Saturday accompanied by Defense Minister Elias el-Murr and Chief of Armed Forces Gen. Jean Kahwaji,Lebanese President Michel Suleiman said everyone must respect Lebanon and its sovereignty and not to turn it into a platform for launching rockets.

The president stressed that this can no longer be tolerated following the deployment of the Lebanese armed forces and United Nations International Forces in Lebanon (UNIFIL) that are working on implementing UNSCR 1701.

"Lebanon is an oasis of understanding and not an arena for conflicts and for settling scores." He said

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2008/12/shiite_mp_denie.php

marc[the israeli spokes person]..said much the same only minutes ago..[a positive sign of maturity]

as for you commenting on god..[arnt you an athiest?]

i will refrain from comment on unions
[if you refrain from comment on my comments re god]

deal?

belly re being 'gods' people
who is not a child of god?

we have abraham who wrestled with an angel..[from who he extracted [claimed to have extracted] a promise]

then we have mosus who begged god not to smite them

if you read further into the books read what god said via the messengers to 'his'people,..please define your proof of where they kept loyalty to god?

you are accepting assumptions..[do you believe in god]?
if not how can you presume to speak for him

how about jesus killed by the judeans..[pharesies or whatever]..is he gods son? his only son?

please present your proof of the assertation..[and reveal why it hasnt been recanted]your presuming trying to stir the pot

clearly you missed where i revealed that'jews'are a recent invention,

abraham was the father of many semite..[this includes arabs]..so by virtue of abraham the arabs are the people of god too

the whole area is murkey [and if raised by an athiest[or a jew]and to what end is again murky;...but this might be a fruitfull conversation deserving of its own toppic

i follow the teachings of christ[the messiah], he advised that we would know by peoples deeds..[not just those who honour god with their lips]

in the specific sense all life gifted to live BY GOD ALONE
and are thus all children of god

[and every person belongs to the people of god]he gives even athiests their gift of life and considering the nature of many people[if that dont reveal god is love nothing will]

i dont make statements lightly,..jesus saying love god love neighbour..,guides me into knowing simply by peoples deeds if they really are gods people

jesus said even a beast of the field knows its masters voice
those who claim to know god must reveal love

just by our fruits/deeds we reveal that still quite voice inside us that guides us is revealing us to be following the still voice of love or hate

revealing if we hear gods voice or satans
by the good or vile we chose to do

*YABBY... you keep on saying that the partition plan 'stole' land.*

Poly, I think that you are confusing the personal with the national
here.

If my family and I owned land in what is now Israel, if we did
not declare war on anyone, but if we were forced to leave and that
land is now occupied by Israelis, then our family should be entitled to
compensation. You would want the same.

A friend of mine some years ago received compensation for a building
in Latvia, that was taken from his family by the Russians, after
the second world war. Fair enough.

Where the Palestinians have a differnt problem, which seemingly
nobody wants to discuss, but I will :) , is that they have apparently
been breeding like rabbits, so the population of Palestinians has
soared.

They can only blame themselves for that and it will only add to
the problem of population pressure. We know from Rwanda, that
the more people you try to cram tighter together, the more will
be your problems.

That is simply not sustainable and as Darwin predicted, eventually
that population will crash, if it is not sustainable.

So it sounds like they will learn the hard way, in that part of
the world.

one under god I agree I will join the ever growing group who ignore your posts.
However I wish you well in the battle to stay in touch with reality.
It could be good advice however to not take on face value anything any one says in that part of the world, by mate.

OUG... yep..I hardly read yours :)

a) They are too LONG
b) The seem to be full of woffle.
c) They are structured in a strange way with lots of little sub thoughts and brackety things...

Try.. a few headings... good spacing..and maybe just ONE major thought ? :)

YABBY.. I think we can agree on that issue. I just make the point we need to be careful to make distinctions about why various Palestinian groups lost their land.

EXAMPLE 1 If they had sent fighters against Israel.. LOST/GONE/GAME OVER

EXAMPLE 2 If they have been peaceful and suddenly some settlers come along and say "God gave us this land.. you 'out'.. we 'in' bye bye"

Then..I'm sympathetic to compensation. I also note that Israel has not to my knowledge disagreed with that.

EXTRA POINT. Did you notice that the Settler segment of Israeli population is growing MUCH faster than the secular ? :) ( 3 times)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1046928.html

Now.. how brilliant must we be to work out....."Over TIME...this will mean a problem of some kind"

Jewish Population of Israel 5.4m (total 7.5m)
Settler Population amond Jews .5million (growing 3 times faster than the 5.4m)

In 12 years, if they double again.. it would be nearly a MILLION settlers .... another 12 years? 2million.

Oh...look...what's that I see over there ? hmm people digging foundations near the Al Akhsa mosque..for a NEW JEWISH TEMPLE!

Yep....I anticipate some interesting times ahead.

belly i will admit to sounding 'out there',..i am the result of my life,and will attempt to explain the unexplainable

see that the bible needs to be read in the times of its writing,that in jesus time the messiah was expected[thus the deciples wrote according to what they expected to see]..that when jesus says'ye unbelieving nation,needing miracles,,,that means any miracle 'reported'..ISNT a miracle!

back/then the ritual was set that dinner took four hours,..that cleanlyness was supreem...[thus the importance of knowing about the handwash jars role in the ritual]

noting the'serman on the mount'mentions..hand/wash-jars..before and after..[it must be seen that at the mount..the judean beliefs wouldnt let 4000/5000 eat without the ritual

[the teaching jesus was teaching the deciples was how fixed we are in our faith[as polycarp,yes and you]..reveal here and now so clearly

see that jesus saying at canna wedding'..it is not yet my time'..means..[to us reading it today]..that he did NOTHING,..he said as much as i dont care..[im not the host]..i dont care if you feed them that vile handwash liquid

servants being servants,they couldnt let the host loose face,[because if the master loses face so much worse for his servants,

so a 'good'servant would save his masters pride/face by bringing out the best wine...[when the custom was to feed the poor wine near the end..,as is also mentioned

[these clues are missed by not knowing that these handwash-jars are the spiritual equivelent of a toilet...[would you serve your master toilet water?..[well neither did the servants]

[recall jesus said about who will lead you will serve you..[a servant gets this teaching easier than a master]...it is our faith in riutual[or holy text]...that avoids us seeing the living loving god right now]..god is eternal[thus must live now]

see that god lives in real time RIGHT NOW..[living ever in the living moment]...not in dead words or able to be captured in holy texts or an arc or a temple

you didnt ask specific questions..[or point out specific error so i could only reply generally...as i have said many times point out where you think i err,and i will gladly explain

EARLY_ARAB_VIEW_ABOUT_JEWISH IMMIGRATION TO PALESTINE:

http://www.amislam.com/feisal.htm

Excepts from an articled by Sharif al-Hussein Ibn Ali al-Husseini, published in "al-Qiblah" on March 23, 1918

<<The resources of the country [Western Palestine] are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants.

One of the most amazing things until recent times was that the Palestinian used to leave his country, wandering over the high seas in every direction. His native soil could not retain a hold on him, though his ancestors had lived on it for 1,000 years.

At the same time we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had the gift of a deeper insight.

They knew that the country was for its original sons [abna'ihi-l-asliyin], for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland.

The return of these exiles [jaliya] to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades, and in all things connected with toil and labour.>>

Letter by Emir Feisal to Felix Frankfurter, President of the Zionist Organisation of America

Paris, March 3, 1919.

<<DEAR MR. FRANKFURTER: I want to take this opportunity of my first contact with American Zionists to tell you what I have often been able to say to Dr. Weizmann is Arabia and Europe.

We feel that the Arabs and Jews are cousins in race, having suffered similar oppressions at the hands of powers stronger than themselves, and by a happy coincidence have been able to take the first step towards the attainment of their national ideals together.

The Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper. We will do our best, in so far as we are concerned, to help them through: we will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home.>>

I think that if we ever needed a demonstration of what a "toothless tiger" the UN and its Security Council are, we need look no further than the genocide being carried out in African states, and the Mugabe situation (but they're not near any oil, are they?)

Nicky

Michael Ben-Yair wrote on, 3 March 2002:

"We enthusiastically chose to become a
colonial society, ignoring international treaties,
expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel
to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and
finding justification for all these activities.
Passionately desiring to keep the occupied
territories, we developed two judicial systems:
one - progressive, liberal - in Israel;
and the other -
cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories.

In effect, we established an apartheid regime in
the occupied territories immediately following
their capture.

That oppressive regime exists to this day."

And:

Shlomo Ben-Ami, wrote in 2000:

"Accusations made by a well-established society
about how a people it is oppressing is breaking rules
to attain its rights do not have much credence."

And:

Moshe Dayan, Sept. 1967:

"Let us approach them (the Palestinian refugees in
the occupied territories) and say that we have
no solution, that you shall continue to live
like dogs, and whoever wants to can leave -
and we will see where this process leads.
In five years we may have 200,000 less people -
and that is a matter of enormous importance."

And:

Ariel (Arik) Sharon, 1973:

"We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them, ...
we'll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in
between the Palestinians, and then another strip
of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank,
so that in 25 years' time, neither the United
Nations nor the United States, nobody, will be
able to tear it apart."

And:

Norman G. Finkelstein, 11 Sept. 2003:

"...it's utterly hypocritical for Israelis to
wonder aloud why Palestinians don't pursue a
non-violent strategy. One obvious reason is that,
whenever they have, Israel brutally represses it."

And:

Yitzhak Rabin, July 1948:

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us.
Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done
with the Palestinian population?'
Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said
'Drive them out!'"

Foxy, where are the "Occupied Territories" today? They aren't occupied are they? So let's move on somewhat from that shall we, finally?

Now what to do, Hamas doesn't want to stop firing rockets and Israel has no intention of allowing them to continue doing so...

The two cannot coexist peacefully, so what do you expect is going to happen? HAMAS, those fearless protector's of the Palestinian people who were going to do wonders, have done NOTHING to stop the IDF to date... Meantime, the IDF has effective and actual control of the vast majority of the Gaza strip... Essentially without any serious drama...

The UN cannot stop the IDF (blatantly fatuous claims & all), the media ain't buying into Pallywood this time round and even the Vatican is being ignored... There is NOTHING HAMAS can do to change ANYTHING now, except surrender. They are not able to find any unarmed civilians or yeshiva students, so they are incapable of inflicting serious casualties.

This is a learning experience to those who seem to think that Israel HAS to bow to International opinion... It does NOT. As to war crimes, bring it on, I strongly doubt even one allegation will be proved.

This is not collective punishment, it is war. Citizen's have to think about what their choice of government intends, they are responsible for it.

As to the disproportionate casualty count, that is what happens when people conduct guerrilla warfare in heavily populated areas against mechanised infantry with heavy artillery support. Hamas knew that and so did the people who voted for them.

PS For those who would quibble, the Israeli Parliament is democratically elected, it is responsible to and bows only to the will of the Israeli people. The Israeli people have shown they are unwilling to accept the continued bombardment from Gaza, deal with it.

The thread started with the idea America would not allowe a UN vote to stop the war.
It was wrong, both sides are not prepared to stop, yet.
The problem needs true understanding, both sides have blood on their hands.
But one is prepared to see its own people killed, to put them in harms way, and use those deaths as a weapon.
Lies yes lies are currency in this troubled part of the world.

hannah-bettor;man is not an island,you are not married[or that if you were it was a marrage that is like hell],i say this/based on your onesided attitude,..your'right'thus everyone else is'wrong'..any succesfull endeavour in human-reality includes giving way to your..'partners-opinion'[or it is not a'real'marrage]

your'allways'right attitude is the wrong-minded attitude that ensures you will allways be single...you speak of one israelie people having the same-mind as you[this is clear insanity..[there are[if your closed mind could admit it]opinions opposing to your own,..your ignorant statements look like a pathetic excuse to keep murdering others..that dare TO THINK DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU

i pity your children[your a ty-rant]..no doudt forcing them to live the life you chose,your mindset is the mind of a dictator,who believes their supirior mind is the only mind[but your mind lacks the ability to reason/love]

peace is a partner-ship,it is minds like yours that cause the unreason that fills the hells,..that seeks to realise your hell right here on earth,but you are a minority

your mindset only rules via lies based on delusional fears..[no one is'all'right..[nor'all'wrong]..realise that everything we do is half right AND half wrong,..but you in your delusional fear/state reveal your not allright,..but also not allwrong..[even a dead clock is right twice a day]

it is futile to point out where i feel your in error[because in your delusion your deaf and blind thus beyond reasoning..[but perhaps israel will be right in the end...if they can see that murder is all wrong,..thus allowing peace may be allright

it is hoped you find contentment,..try to see good[god]in others,..know loving neighbour is the means by which you love god..,but clearly you will find fault even in god in your present sick/minded oneness

when peace comes..[and it will despite idiots such as you,..your words will remind you of the evil/your fears brought you,..it is never too late for god,..he is patiant and loving...if you make any claim to be his people..know,..vile' is far from god..,

but he'loves';the repentant-sinner..[go and sin no more..may gods/peace lay gently on your shoulder..,may gods/peace fill your heart[go be the tool of love..[not hate]..,its not too late

Nicky “we need look no further than the genocide being carried out in African states, and the Mugabe situation”

I do recall the commencement of the Mugabe regime, partly because I was in Southern Rhodesia / Zimbabwe a week after, doing work for a company with a subsidiary in Salisbury / Harare.

Having inherited the finances of the UDI government of Ian Smith, Mugabe had the perfect opportunity to build an even brighter future for all Rhodesians / Zimbabweans.

Instead Mugabe turned it into a charnel house of fiscal incompetence and human rights abuses

However, as you suggest we look at African states, genocide, I would suggest we also consider the role the UN has played in the Mugabe rise to power.

Most particularly I refer you to
General Assembly resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960
And UN Security Council resolutions:
232 (1966) of 16 December 1966,
253 (1968) of 29 May 1968,
386 (1976) of 17 March 1976,

From those resolutions, it is pretty easy to conclude the existence of the Mugabe regime was, in part, a function of UN resolutions as much as any other influence.

One seriously wonders, had Ian Smith’s regime been allowed to find its own way, without the iron fist of the UN choking it at every turn, would the plight of Zimbabweans been better or worse than they are today?

Personally, I cannot think of how they could possibly be any worse.

Just like its position on AGW, the role and influence of the UN is no guarantee of a responsible or meaningful outcome, let alone the right outcome.

Dear Haganah Bet,

Your understanding of events and mine differs
totally. And it's sad because
Israel's war without questions intensifies and
broadens the circles of hatred for
generations. In fact, I can't think of any other
country on earth that, in full view of
nightly TV audiences, has performed such
detailed sadism against an entire society and
gotten away with it.

As for no occupied territories existing today?
Try the West Bank. However, as Moshe Dayan acknowledged
on 17 Sept. 1969, "There is not a single place built
in this country that did not have a former Arab
population."

Avraham Burg wrote on 15 Sept, 2003:

"We live in a thunderously failed reality...
A state lacking justice cannot survive...
Even if the Arabs lower their heads and swallow
their shame and anger for ever, it won't
work. a structure built on human callousness
will inevitably collapse in on itself..."
(Roman Empire, South Africa, Soviet Union).

And:

"Between the Jordan and the Mediterranean there
is no longer a clear Jewish majority.
And so, fellow citizens, it is not possible
to keep the whole thing without paying a price.
We cannot keep a Palestinian majority under an
Israeli boot and at the same time think ourselves
the only democracy in the Middle East. There
cannot be a democracy without equal rights for
all who live there, Arab as well as Jew.
We cannot keep the territories and preserve a
Jewish majority in the world's only Jewish state."

And finally,

"Accusations made by a well-established society
about how a people it is oppressing is breaking
rules to attain its rights do not have much credence."
(Shlomo-Ben-Ami, 2000).

ANDREW SMITH.. early white settler to Australia.. referring to the "abo's"

"We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them, ...
we'll insert a strip of White settlements in
between the Boongs, and then another strip
of White settlements right across the Western New South Wales,
so that in 25 years' time, neither the United
Nations nor the United States, nobody, will be
able to tear it apart."

WOAH... welcome to "Australia"... but this of course was a bit longer ago..and we have all now nicely adjusted to the status quo....

I never cease to be amazed at how 'we' from our ivory towers of 'success' in overcoming the 'annoying indigenous' people.... can now poke the bone and stick and stone at Israel for doing that from which we all benefit AND speak from.... today.

No..I don't feel good about any of it. I'm as much a victim of it as anyone. AND...I see the seething rage in the faces of Aboriginal youth in Melbourne each Australia day.. how they resemble the same facial expressions towards whites as Palestinians do toward Jews.

We are all victims of history.. some are a 'victim in progress' .. might may not be 'right' but it does rule. The upside of course is..that once the dust has settled, there is opportunity for all.. yep..ALL to have a reasonable life together.. it won't be the hunting and gathering of the 'old way' but it can still be great.

HAMAS CRUELTY /HUMAN SHIELDS (Children)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBR8Z-l8LXg&feature=related

HAMAS CHILDREN 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeZzSgKUde8&feature=email

Just to help realize how scurrilous is HAMAS/Muslim propoganda and Islamic opportunism..... see THIS.

IDF drops a bomb on a fuel depot... big bang....

Muslim perspective? 'TACTICAL NUKE DROPPED ON GAZA'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi8avZ5fGnE&feature=related

THOSE POOR WOMEN?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iGyc9gvD-U&feature=related

THOSE POOR CHILDREN?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8

Yes..they are poor because they are subjected to the disgusting mind altering practices of Islamist Hamas.

So..no matter what the short term cost.. HAMAS must be destroyed.. 100% Let's hope Israeli politicians will have the grit to do the job.

Polycarp,

I prefer the words of Desmond Tutu, April 2002:

"People are scared in this country (the US),
to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby
is powerful - very powerful.
Well, so what? For goodness sake, this is God's
world!

We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government
was very powerful, but today it no longer exists.
Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Pinochet, Milosevic, and
Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit
the dust.

Injustice and oppression will never prevail.
Those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test
that God gives to the powerful: what is your treatment
of the poor, the hungry, the voiceless?

And on the basis of that, God passes judgement.

We should put out a clarion call to the government
of the people of Israel, to the Palestinian people
and say: peace is possible, peace based on justice is
possible.

We will do all we can to assist you to achieve this peace,
because it is God's dream, and you will be able to live
amicably together as sisters and brothers."

CONT'D...

Polycarp,

If the words of Desmond Tutu can't reach you,
perhaps Rabbi Menachem Froman's words might:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Froman

Or alternatively you can just simply google:

Menachem Froman

Dear Foxy... well intentioned...good hearted and compassionate :)

I read the information about the Froman Amrayeh agreement. It is good with one vital problem...and here it is:

<<It does not, for example, include the recognition by Hamas of the State of Israel, instead "recognizing that there are Jews living in the Holy Land," according to Froman, thus overcoming an obstacle that has long been a deal-breaker.>>

You must ask this question "why" is such recognition (Of Israel) a 'deal breaker'?

That is the single most important question any of us can ask.

This little sentence leads us back to the Hamas Charter... and the fundamental long term Goal they have.

If this is not the case..then recognition should not be the slightest problem. They might even say something like "We recognize the State of Israel within such and such borders"...which might also be a total deal breaker but at least the Israeli's would know clearly what they are up against.

The absense of the committment to recognition of the State of Israel, and the obscure language about it being "a reality" and "long term truce" simply means that they are biding time for a final onslaught and ethnic cleansing of all Jews. If this were NOT so..then they would remove the 2 inhuman sections from their charter immediately.

1/ Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it.
2/ The Last hour will not come unless the Muslims KILL the Jews.

The dancing around this issue they do.. relying on graphic images of dismembered children to sway public opinion and bludgeon our senses to the point where ANYthing for peace seems good... is standard stuff for HAMAS.

Regrettably.. it changes nothing about their nature in my view.

But let history prove me right or wrong. Chamberlain tried appeasement..and look what we got.

I think if all these rallies for Gaza focused SOME of their zeal on HAMAS demanding they renounce their genocidal charter.. some good might come of it.

That will be the message I bring to the Anti War/Gaza Rally in Melbourne on Jan 18th

Polycarp,

God Bless Us Everyone!