I have recently had to come to terms with the fact my sister has just announced to the family her 20 year old son is gay.As with many families of gay people the thought was always there.The greatest shock has been hearing about the pain and suffering my sister hid from everyone for many years, with regard to the hell both herself and her son went through since he told her in a letter when he was 16 years old.He chose not to confide in his father,also for many years, until he felt ready. My sister respected that decision.This hell included many hysterical crying fits from her son as he realised he was different to his peers.
Hysterical crying fits from my sister who had to come to terms with the fact her only son who she adores was gay. She hid it all, including bullying at school and exclusion from friends etc because she felt it was too soon to talk about it, incase it was a phase.I believe he even thought about taking his own life at one point. Now he is 20 he feels able to live with the fact his extended family all know and he is happy for his mother to talk about everything.
Thankfully he has come through the other side and is a well adjusted,clever and talented young man with a great future ahead of him. We are still a close family, although I believe my nephew has plans of his own, so we may not see as much of him as we would like.
My main point is how on earth could anyone honestly believe men or women have a choice as to whether they are gay. It may not have come knocking at my own door, but it has certainly taken a walk on my path and I can honestly say my heart goes out to all gay people.I wish them true peace and happiness. Above all I wish them the ability to loose any bitterness they may feel towards people who just cannot, or will not, try to understand.

SPYOUT

You tell a moving story and then write
'My main point is how on earth could anyone honestly believe men or women have a choice as to whether they are gay. '

I know a woman who had a number of kids. She was abused as a child and then decided in her 50's that she was a man hater. She is now in a lesbian situation. How could you possibly say this was not her choice?

Logic also says that if homosexuality is not a choice then pedophile is also not a choice or adultery is not a choice.

I sympathize with you and your sister and her son. However your emotional state seems to be getting in the way of reason. No doubt their are many factors that has led to your nephew choosing this lifestyle however ultimately it is a choice.

runner: "I know a woman who had a number of kids. She was abused as a child and then decided in her 50's that she was a man hater. She is now in a lesbian situation. How could you possibly say this was not her choice?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question : "the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises".

SPKOUT

Welcome to the forum.

You start with a most eloquent and painful post. I hope that your words bring comfort to people who are struggling with similar problems. The prejudice against gay people is as illogical as it is hurtful. As if your nephew would deliberately choose to put himself through the hell of a less common sexuality. At least we can talk about it more than when it was "the love that cannot speak its name". We are progressing from the primitive attitudes of the past.

I wish your nephew and all your family the very best.

Hi SPKOUT - thanks for sharing your nephew's and sister's experiences. Recently, a close mate of mine's son informed his dad that he is gay - fortunately without as much angst and trauma involved as in your nephew's case.

Having an understanding and supportive family made all the difference, given that he lives in a provincial Queensland city which is not exactly renowned for its progressive or enlightened attitudes.

Welcome to OLO - and my advice to you is to simply ignore the homophobic drivel posted by runner and others who'll inevitably lambast you in the name of their god.

Anything I say will only echo Fractelle.

All the best to you and yours.

I too consider that Fractelle, Cj and StG have said whatever I would have said.

I'm also glad you chose to share, knowing that you would inevitably get some adverse reactions. Looks like you have sussed out that the general feeling here is not represented by the one or two most voiciferous commentators.

All the best.

There sure has been a huge number of losses in society... since the permissive society latched on.

People wandered away into all kinds of traps....to become victims as they became blinded by spirit powers.

One loss is what the Holy Bible says that is actually going on in the spirit world.

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms..." Ephesians 6:12.

As time passed and people got further away from the truth of Gods Word much was lost about how the enemy goes about deception.

Gay and lesbian folk, at some time or other, made the free will personal choice to be gay.
The 'powers' that touched the victim got a victory when the victim decided that it was a good idea to do what his/her conscience had told them not to do.

Its then that the misery beins... as has been told in the story above.

The solution:
Once again we need to teach what the Holy Bible says about spirits and deception.
...and about how submission to God through Jesus Christ will, not can, but will set the victim of the free of unnatural desires and the misery that goes with those desires.

Much prayer likewise saves the day.

Yes indeed [as to Gay Concerns] I agree the actual battle to save the word has been lost. To quote [some dude]:

Elsewhere in New Words For Old Howard has what should probably be the last word in any argument about whether the battle to "save" gay has been lost.
Writing in 1977 he said: "It would be difficult today to use the 19th century nursery rhyme as it was used in the House of Lords in 1948 to congratulate Princess Elizabeth, as (the Queen) then was, on the birth of the Prince of Wales:
The child that is born on the Sabbath day,
Is fair and wise, and good and gay."

But there are 2 ways to skin a cat, so we now have those that hate the original hijack [eg me] who have now hijacked the hijack [see, I too can "nounify" as queers do by saying "a gay"] word to mean "a total Drongo" [see Carman in SouthPark]

So all's fair in love and war, but homophobia?

like I am afraid of queers? - give me strength - THAT is no doubt a Don Watson Weasel Word

I've got many gay friends, and most had a rather tortured schooling experience, adolescence and coming-out period. But once they left school and discovered the gay community their lives dramatically improved.

A young gay man needs comrades, friends, people with similar experiences. (Not to mention lovers.) I suspect and hope that the worst is over for your nephew and that life will take him in all sorts of new, fulfilling directions. He may need to submerge himself in that world for a while in order to enjoy the understanding of his peers, which his life has so far lacked.

A close family is a precious thing. I'm so glad for him that his family is supportive. You may have already discovered it, but if you haven't, PFLAG is an organisation for parents, family and friends of gay and lesbian people. http://www.pflagaustralia.org.au/

As others have said, there's nothing to do with the fire and brimstone types but ignore them.

Fractelle says:

"The prejudice against gay people is as illogical as it is hurtful."

The problem is.... that 'prejudice' is wrongly directed. The issue here should always be 'behavior'.

I am very prejudiced against all immorality, including my own. When I deviate from the straight and narrow as revealed in Scripture, I hate what I DO....not what I "am".

When serving in Asia as a missionary, we had a number of single lady missionaries. Most, but not all, experienced a degree of sexual frustration without an outlet for that desire. They COULD have gone in any number of directions to satisfy that craving that we ALL experience...but from my observation, with the support of loving colleagues and Church.. they did not.

The issue with 'being' gay... is not the being but the DOing.
Homosexual behavior is about having sex with a person of the same gender. Let's repeat that -SEX!

So.. hear of situations like this one in SPKOUTs post.. then face the question "how can anyone believe they have a CHOICE"... I simply ask myself "Are their not many situations in life where we know our desires are against the morality of society...and do we not always face a CHOICE about whether we ACT on those desires"?

I believe a person who believes they are, or is (depending on the outcome of science) should remain celibate from anything which is against the clearly expressed will of God.

But I can only speak for Christians, what those who don't name Christ as Savior decide....is up to them.

Dr Roy Clements is one prominent Christian who's tapes I've listened to.. but then abandoned his position on this and declared he is gay.
Looking closely at his testimony/story about this, it boiled down not to love, but sex!
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/8075.htm

If we hold the position that a gay person MUST be able to fulfill his physical desires.. what then do we say of ? ... you can guess.

Just following up on this, John R.W. Stott is a single Christian who is revered by the world Christian community... he is a bachelor and not gay.

Roy Clements had a wife and family. He walked out on them..for the 'right' kind of sex. I think that it's a disgrace to put your family on a lower priority than such a thing.

<<His wife, Jane, and family, are terribly upset and crushed by what has happened. They need our prayers. A number of friends have sent messages to Roy Clements, but at present he appears intent to sever links with all who knew him.>>

No kidding?!

Dr Stott and Dr Clements exchanged some letters.. found here.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:akKahDj_tC4J:www.ecwr.org/thecable/02summer.pdf+evangelical+alliance+roy+clements&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=21

In this he (Clements) says:

<<Let me begin by saying that I agree with you when
you assert that neither the possible existence of a homo-
sexual gene nor the experience of falling in love with
someone of the same sex ipso facto provides a moral justi-
fication for gay relationships.>>

Then further he says:

"Changing behavior is a matter of the will alone."

So... on the BEHAVIORAL level... how is justifying gay sex any different to justifying any 'other' types of unusual or degrading or illegal sex? The only thing which declares some types of sexual activity illegal is the law...and there are plenty of people not only ready but active in trying to change that!

Stott says of himself:

"The gift of singleness is more a vocation than an empowerment, although to be sure God is faithful in supporting those He calls.

I know many very nice gay people. Many gay people, given the choice would not be gay, so being gay is not a chosen lifestyle.
Those who use the Bible to justify the belief that being gay is a lifestyle choice should read Anthony Venn-Brown's book, I think it's called "A Life of Unlearning". I've only read portions. Jesus himself never talked about homosexuality. Other Biblical passages that condemn homosexuality are open to interpretation based on the original Greek words used.

Anthony Venn-Brown was a former Assembly of God Pastor. He did a lot for that church including helping to establish the "Youth Alive" ministry. Yet all this time Anthony Venn-Brown was gay. He now has a ministry to the gay & lesbian Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians, and their supporters. (It is estimated that 60% of Pentecostal Christians actually are supportive of the Gay Christian groups, but are forced to keep quiet). Note, I am not gay, but a supporter of the gay Christian movement. Before coming back to me and saying "There's no such thing as a gay Christian", please, take the log out of your own eye first.

Dear SPKOUT,

Welcome to the Forum, and Thank You for sharing
your concerns with us about your sister and nephew.
She's a very brave Lady, as is her son.

My heart goes out to
them both. I can't even begin to imagine
the shock of realizing that his deep personal feelings
are often despised by some people in our society.

It's unimaginable that someone would have to spend
a lifetime denying who they are. I am glad that this
issue has been resolved and that your nephew has come
out of it as a well adjusted young man.

Over the past decades there have been substantial
changes in attitudes towards homosexuality, and gay
men and lesbian women are now able to pursue their
lifestyles with relative freedom, we now have laws
to guarantee their civil rights.

What I don't understand is the narrow-mindedness of
some people. Surely they can't realize the pain
they cause to others? Because, when it comes right
down to it, we all are somebody's child, parent, cousin,
co-worker, teacher, neighbour, friend, or fellow student.
Our sexual preference should not be any one else's
concern.

Good People,

Maybe we should look at the bible for some guidance on this matter. Not that the Bible is any kind of authority on anything not already known.

Let’s take the King James version of 1 Samuel 20:41 and the dalliance between Jonathan and David.

“And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place towards the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded.”

Even biblical scholars do not suggest the ‘exceeded’ was in relation to sports etc i.e being exceedingly good as something.

Daddy, (Saul) was not amused, for in those dark and ignorant days, same-sex-orientation was frowned upon as it was not understood. Some people today still don’t understand it (Or refuse to) and even suggest celibacy is the answer. Yeah right!...very sensible and obtainable. Just turn off one of the most powerful drives in humans; sexual attraction and its fulfilment.

David

Spkout,

I hope that your sister and her husband’s relationship improves as does the relationship between your nephew and his father so that he can trust his father like any son should be able to. Would it be a safe bet that his revelation to his father was anticlimactic?

Gibo,

“Gay and lesbian folk, at some time or other, made the free will personal choice to be gay… decided that it was a good idea to do what his/her conscience had told them not to do.”

That is easy to say but have you ever been in that situation and had to make the choice? Do you know how hard it might be? You probably have people in your Church who used to identify as ‘gay’. Perhaps you should probe further than their stiff upper lip admissions ie. the usual “When I think about it I have to admit it was a choice.” Ask them what it was like for them as a vulnerable teenager rejected by their peers for their difference with no religious ideals when the issue first arose and how hard it was to avoid doing “what their conscience told them not to do” in an environment which insists that they are unchangeably born that way if they experience same sex attraction.

Steel Mann,

I also know some very nice people identifying as gay but am nevertheless surprised by your post. I have never previously encountered a Pentecostal who would be supportive of a group that rejects the idea that expressing same sex attraction is a sin. Indeed it would be a safe bet that others I have encountered would not relate to any assertions of ambiguity in scriptural condemnation of homosexuality any more than they would relate to the Christian swinger’s group’s reinterpretation of the condemnation of adultery. In light of that experience, which I concede may not be representative, I am naturally skeptical. Contrarily if I read a similar statistic relating to people identifying as Catholics it would be less surprising. Who estimated that 60% of Pentecostal Christians hold that view and on what basis?

Spkout,
There is an old folk tale about a child who was perceived to have a severe difference.
Each night the child’s mother dreamt of the child struggling up a steep hill with others all carrying different sized knapsacks. Only her son’s seemed much bigger. Each night it seemed his burden seemed to get bigger and each night he struggled just that little bit more.
One night incensed that his burden was bigger than everyone else climbing she asked “Son why is your burden bigger than everyone else?”
He turned and sadly answered “mother this burden is to carry all the tears that others have cried for me”
She never cried over his differences again nor did she have that dream again.
And he was happier.

Moral: Cry not for others differences. At best it may not be a problem to them at worst they don’t need to carry your disappointment too.

Be thankful if he’s OK with the knowledge.

Cheers Examinator Ant

Mjpb.
I appreciate conflict within.
Its not always easy as you have said but its better to resist the sin now than pay for it later.

Check out Mary K Baxters revelation of hell.

If we all had a wholesome vision of the great war on earth be would be better off for it.

Ephesians 6:12-18 if youre interested.

You people are unbelievable.

Dear examinator,

What a marvellous response!

I'm going to copy the story and
frame it.

All The Best,

What Foxy said. Great story Examinator.

Along with others, welcome spkout, and great post.

Among the gay people I know there are two agonies involved for young people - dealing with the crap at school which caused your sister and nephew one kind of pain, and dealing with feeling responsible for the feelings of family and friends. The first you can be reasonably sure will pass when school is over and done with, but with the other, you face huge risks.

From your description it sounds as though the family will be supportive enough to see your nephew through the lesser rubbish he'll face in the wider world. Good luck to him and your whole family. Your sister must be a rock. It's amazing what some women will do to protect their kids.

Steel Mann.

Dont spend much time with Anthony Venn-Brown.

As far as anyone knows, he deserted Jesus Christ and the churches to give secular instruction to gay folk. He jioned with them... and their behaviour.
He was married and dumped his family to go for a guy... and blamed the AOG churches for his own sin.

His life is a tragedy that one day he will most severely have to answer for.

All the AOG's told him about homesexuality was straight from Gods Word, which he already knew having been such a dynamic preacher.

I'm heartened to see that mjpb seems to have moderated his/her attitude to gay people lately. Excellent stuff!

SPKOUT

Ditto Stg, fractelle, CJ and examinator's thoughts.

What is sad is the fact that your nephew and other gay people still feel they have to hide themselves from their families and friends in some cases. Thankfully as we become more civilised the need for to hide is reducing.

Homosexuality has been around for centuries which in itself suggests that sexuality is not something that is chosen. Why would you choose a lifestyle that in some periods throughout history would mean certain death or stoning.

One day we can hope for a better world where people are freely accepted and loved for their natural selves and not some artificially derived construct of what society (or certain sectors) dictates we should be.

SPKOUT,
I too, would like to thank you for your beautiful post. As you see, it is necessary to have discussions about homesexuality!

Well said, Fractelle, CJ, Examinator Foxy et al.

I find it rather sad that there are still Christians who don't accept homosexuality and who question other Christians who have no problem with homosexuality.

How come some Christians (Runner, Gibo, Poly) claim that they're followers of Jesus and love him when they deny this progressive spirit the freedom to keep up with times?
If *I* were a Christian, I would love Jesus enough to not to force Him to remain frozen in His time.
I would like Him to be free, have space, and all the info at hand to update His view as more information about homosexuality became available.

Or do you think that Jesus should be forced to ignore the new knowledge about homosexuality?

Besides,
In in Matthew 7:12: "Always treat others as you would like them to treat you".

So please, Christians, when someone comes on our forum to talk about the pain and rejection her sister and nephew are experiencing, why don't you reach out and try to show some understanding by treating Spkout as you would want to be treated if you came here to tell your story about something that is painful to you.

Homosexuality is not a choice for some, it is their natural inclination. For others it is fully a matter of choice. And for others it is a compromised matter of choice after their first choice failed, ie; considering homosexuality to be better than asexuality after heterosexuality has proven to be unsuccessful.

But.... what does it matter if it is a choice or not?

Vive le difference in human sexuality!

All the best SPKOUT.

Thankyou all for taking the time to reply to my post .Thankyou mainly to those who are enlightened enough regarding the subject to give a positive and understanding reply.To those who believe homosexuality is a choice and even if the desire is there, if you believe in God then the desire or wish to act on the desire will end, I say walk in the shoes for a day.Ofcourse the latter is a belief that holds no substance for my nephew, having explained to his mother that he has the ability to love the opposite sex and absolutely no ability to make love to the opposite sex.He said to her can you imagine making love to another woman,then for me it the same as if I was to do this.It just feels disgusting!He is born this way due to hormonal influences in the womb,should he be denied the love he is capable of sharing?After all God is love.God would never deny love in whatever respect, as long as it was between consenting adults who suffer the same issues in life regarding their sexual orientation.Also to compare this type of love between to consenting adults,with adult abuse of children is an abomination.
Until you have walked on the path and truely shared the pain of those in my nephews situation,which is what christians are expected to do, your judgement may be valid in your own eyes, but really you know nothing of true life at all.

CJ, ditto.

mjpb, encouraging signs of compassion, perhaps even understanding.

SPKOUT, when I told my parents twenty years ago that I was gay, they were shocked, disappointed and afraid, both for themselves and for me. It didn't take them long to notice that while contact with my siblings normally involved my parents providing childcare for the grandchildren, I was coming by to spend time with them. We’ve had many joyful times together, and the shock of my coming out diminished our love for each other not one bit.

Love is greater than pre-conceptions, more powerful than neighbours’ opinions, stronger than homophobia and prejudice. Your nephew’s openness has allowed him, your sister and your brother-in-law the opportunity for great joy and sharing, if they have the will to grab it.

Even better, the world your nephew is growing into is a much fairer and more accepting place these days – your sister and her husband don’t have to give up the hope of grandchildren just because their son is gay. They don’t have to describe him in euphemisms, and quietly ignore it when he’s not invited to family gatherings.

I wish every fulfilment to all of you, and I thank you for the concern that brought you to share your story here. Your caring in this way speaks of great love.

*Much prayer likewise saves the day.*

Ah Gibo, if only life were so simple. I remind you that when the
last pope was crook, hundreds of millions prayed. He still fell
off the proverbial perch.

On this topic there is actually an amusing story, which I read about
some years ago. Some Christians formed a "reformed gays for Jesus" group
as they thought that people could be re-educated. To cut a long
story short, the two guys who founded it and ran it, eventually
ran off with one another :)

So lets look at the Science here. We know that attraction involves
instinct and brain chemistry. To come back to biology, when even
our religious friends have an erection, is not because they decide
to have one, it happens naturally, or instinctively.

What we know about the brain, which is where it all happens, is
that we basically all start as females. As the foetus develops,
male brains are flooded with testosterone, which masculanises
those brains. If there is an interruption of these hormones at
the stage of early foetal developement, (like mommy is stressed or
whatever), this shows later on in the life of the individual. The
Russians did alot of work on this, back in the old days of the
Soviet Union etc.

To cut it short, we can create gay rats in the lab, by fiddling
with brain chemistry that affect the developing foetus.

Now we can't take humans and do the same experiments, it would
be unethical. But what we can deduct from all this is that
sexual leanings have a genetic/development of the foetus basis
and for Christians to claim that people should just wish away
their sexuality or pray it away, is pure fantasy stuff.

Dear Yabby...so you would concede that homosexual attraction is a malfunction in the brain ? Good.. we now agree.

There is absolutely no question that same sex attraction is a malfunction, that it is not normal.

The 'warm fuzzy' supporters simply don't see that we prohibit paedophilia legally, but that doesn't change the malfunction element going on in the heads of those who are absolutely convinced of it being their 'identity'....

Anyone who watched the Kenja Documentary would have noticed how Ken Dyers.. who was clearly involved in sexual abuse of minors... and who described this (with support from his wife) as 'therapeutic'for the victims...had a melt down on National Tv..screaming...yelling.. ranting.. pacing.. raving, abusing... and shortly after KILLED himself.

Sorry. If you are going to love and accept homosexual behavior, you are a hypocrite and inconsistent if you don't ALSO love/accept paedophile behavior from those who believe it is their identity.

If you saw Ken Dyers effort... you will see the same pain and suffering you speak of gays experiencing in their own struggle.

Biological malfunction is not an excuse to persue actively the desires it creates in the person concerned.
Jufity it as 'not' a malfunction..and you must also justify AND accept all the rest.

If 'biological malfunction' (whatever that is) is not an excuse to pursue actively the desires it creates in the person concerned, or it's not a 'malfunction' then why did God make them that way?

What is a "biological malfunction" exactly?

For goodness sakes Polycarp,the law is there to protect children from abuse by adults who are extremely sick and rightly so. Homosexual people may be wired differently due to hormonal issues,as in my nephews case, but they are not sick.My nephews relationships will be with other CONSENTING! adults, who are exactly the same as himself.How can you possibly equate the two situations. In my oppinion that is absurd and toatally wrong.

SPKOUT you had been warned religious bigotry would find you here.
I am not anti gay or pro gay, but I understand no one asked to be gay.
Christianity should get out of our beds.
Should stop controlling our lives in the name of just one God of the hundreds we have invented

Theres some very poor understanding of homosexuality here.

Its a spirit power that people give into.

Its not that they cant help themselves... or that they were born that way...its that they give in to a spirit power that draws them towards homosexuality or lesbianism.
Its their choice that they gave into the 'spirit' and let it lead them into becoming gay.
It, the 'evil spirit', whispered in their ears, touched their minds and seduced them and took them away from Gods Commandments into a misery of a life.

...and most probably it will have something to do with their parents/ or ancestors who didnt want to know Jesus Christ as their Saviour and didnt read their Bibles or fellowship with Bible believing christians who would have taught them, direct from Gods Word, about demon powers and the specific sin their children/descendent/s are now bound too.

The curses of those who hate or ignore God can travel down to four generations from the original person who rebelled against God and His Commandments.

This will change and the curses will get broken when people take the sin to God in prayer... and ask Jesus Christ to help them with repentence.
Getting Jesus into our lives... gets the sin and misery out.

"Everyone who calls on the Name of The Lord Jesus Christ will be saved"...Romans 10:13.

...and thats what gay is.

Its a power from the 'dark side' of the great spirit war that has been going on now for some 6,000 years.

It aint nothing other... ever!

If there was a God, she'd make sure that one of Porky's, runner's or Gibo's kids came out as being gay.

Gibo,

You comments confirm to me that you should read Anthony Venn-Brown's book. I know I'm going to see if I can get one today. I've seen it in Border's bookshop.

Anthony Venn-Brown struggled for years to try and break free from being gay. He has counselling, exorcisms, he was married and he still couldn't break free. He's not blaming the AOG for what you call his "Sin". (He still attends an AOG church) The fact is that many gay people cannot help being gay, and would like to change if they could. It's been scientifically proven that there is a gay gene, so we have to look at what the Bible was really saying. Some people say that the words used for homosexuality being a sin in the Bible actually translates to a promiscuous type of homosexuality rather than a monogamous relationship. Many Pentecostal and Charismatic leaders are now accepting of gays, including the very well respected Tony Campolo.

Even is homosexuality in a monogamous relationship is a sin, we have no right to judge them, and should take a good look at our own lives first.

"Theres some very poor understanding of homosexuality here. "

That was a very accurate summary of the content which followed.

R0bert

jpw2040

"Love is greater than pre-conceptions, more powerful than neighbours’ opinions, stronger than homophobia and prejudice."

Well said.

SPKOUT the comments by people like Poly, Gibo and Runner are all about intolerance and, as such, may burden you with sadness - if you let them (thanks examinator). The hate from bigots is nothing, as jpw2040 has very aptly made clear Love is far greater and I notice that love is the winner among the many responses to your original post.

Love.

Gibo,with all due respect my family are not cursed. They are blessed with the virtue that god says a human being will be given no more in life than they can cope with.We are very blessed due to the fact that every child born to my family in this generation are naturally straight A students with music sport and all other talents abounding. (hard work for all their parents who never ever push them but do support them) all have issues of one type or another. Being gay is my nephews issue! and all are either serving or potentially serving in God given voccations such as law, medicine,social work etc, including my nephew.When he stands in judgement along beside you Gibby, will you be able to say the same.How do you know that part of my God given journey at this very momment, is to educate ignorant people like yourself, who dispel the nature of God which is love.?Perhaps not a choice I would make, but nevertheless questionable!I wonder!

Gibo,

“I appreciate conflict within.”

I won’t argue. I can’t read your mind. However it just doesn’t sound like it sometimes. If there is a mismatch between what you appreciate and what you write you should be more careful.

CJ,

“I'm heartened to see that mjpb seems to have moderated his/her attitude to gay people lately. Excellent stuff!”

No way! I just haven’t triggered off any paranoia or had anything to add that wasn’t liked.

Ludwig,

“Homosexuality is not a choice for some…has proven to be unsuccessful.”

Thoughtful take on something normally caricatured by both sides. I won’t get pedantic about it because you deserve credit for that. It is a refreshing change in these types of discussions.

jpw2040,

Damnit when you start saying that I know I have a problem. More understanding/empathy perhaps but I believe the compassion has always been there and even Gibo’s apparently insensitive comments which appeared to lack appreciation for the plight of a gay teenager are spoken out of love as much as you want to pretend it is from hate. Further, I am a Christian so I’m naturally going to lean toward being tougher on those in my group than those who don’t have the same belief system (when I’m not under attack). Welcome back anyway. How did the bigger fish frying go?

Yabby et al,

So we know it is caused by a sex hormone imbalance, or defective brain chemistry due to stress, or definitely genetic.

Gibo et al.

So we definitely know that it is just a demonic temptation resulting from the sins of our ancestors.

Both of the above groups,

I admire your confidence. Good luck in persuading people who don’t accept things on faith of these ‘facts’.

Steel Mann,

The 60%?

“Even if homosexuality in a monogamous relationship is a sin, we have no right to judge them, and should take a good look at our own lives first.”

Does your “if” indicate that you backing off from the assumption it is a splinter?

I made a spelling mistake mjpb. The fact is we need to remove the log from our own eye first, before we try to remove splinters from other people's eyes.

*Dear Yabby...so you would concede that homosexual attraction is a malfunction in the brain ? Good.. we now agree.*

No Poly, we don't agree. Let me make it simple for you. If you
were born with blue eyes, then you were born with blue eyes, that
is how it is.

Now you might think that people born with blue eyes are evil, for
some wierd religious reason, but then I can't help the fact
that you believe wierd things.

Gibo puts it down to "spirits". Sorry Gibo, no evidence of
any ghosts anywhere, other then those who believe in ghost and
even more wierd things.

Steel Mann.
I dont think Mr. Venn-Brown tried all that hard otherwise he would have broken free.
Theres 'prayer' and theres true prayer.
I see Tony as less than genuine...clinging to the sin as we all do at times...but clinging too much.
He wanted it and now he lives it.

I dont know anyone in the pentecostal churches who calls himself a leader and who permits unrepentant gays in their congregation.

Yabby.
The biggest deception in all of the whole, wide world is done by satan... and that is that he goes to vast lengths to make fun of his own existance... to make himself 'non-existant' by making fun of the man in the red suit with the pitchfork.
Yes... homosexuality is just another fallen spirit....actually quite a lot of them.

SPKOUT.
I dont know your family (I tried to generalise the situation which is actually very real as far as being a 'cursed family').
What I said about family curses is the truth...though it may not apply to yours or your family extensions.

If anyone wants to know if their family is under a generational curse look for the signs...
Going back, down the timeline, was or is there an addiction or trait the family seems or is bound to?

Ive known families where theres been alcohol down three and more generations (i.e. they were all drunks and bashers).
Many families have the violence passed down. Others have the greed or the sexual lust and its adultery.
Its all very real indeed.
Confession of sin and repentence to Jesus Christ will end that curse.

Gay/Lesbian/Homosexual/Heterosexual/Blue eyes/Brown eyes/Black hair/Blond Hair/Red Hair/Short/Tall/Catholic/Muslim/Druze/Orthodox/Agnostic/Atheist/etc etc etc...

All these things (and more) are just wonderful parts of this multi-coloured/multi-faceted/multi-faith existence of being human, and we should love and cherish people for their differences(whether through choice of otherwise), not vilify them for it.

I cherish even Gibo and Polycarp (yes, even as I grind my teeth) for their views, if only because they serve as a reminder to me and others of how much we human beings have to strive to live our lives without fear, hatred and bigotry, and encourage others to do the same.

Great post, Amjay.

What does God say about variety, Gibo?
I mean, according to the religious, He created everything, did He not?
So why would He have created so much variety if He didn't approve of some of these differences?

Isn't He supposed to love ALL of His creations?

I knew of a young boy (2 years old) who dressed up in his sisters clothes wore hair bands etc ,had a pusher with a barbie doll . This child is ten now and things have not changed, I don't think a toddler chooses to be gay. But this young boy has all the signs and I feel sorry for him because he gets bullied at school etc to.
but i also have girl friends who chose to be lesbians after having children and leaving their husbands ... so it can go both ways. but who are we to judge others if we live in glass houses.

I have not logged in for a few days and I am really surprised by the amount of comments received in this thread, in what seems to be a controversial suject for many people.I would finally (or perhaps not finally)like to add,I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that some people do make the choice to love and be with members of the same sex,perhaps because they are inherently bi-sexual. (I believe you would have to be or it wouldn't be possible)I also have no doubt in my mind, that people like my nephew were quite simply born with an inability to to make love to the opposite sex, as the marjority of 'straight' people would find it immpossible to make love to the same sex.I believe It is no different for gay people, other than to people born gay,it is just that,impossible for most of them to be with the opposite sex.I say why should anyone deny the right for my nephew to have a loving,CONSENTING! one to one relationship with someone born the same way as himself,just because those who do not suffer this way cannot and will not try to understand his plight. How would a 'straight' person feel, if certain members of society hated them because they wouldn't marry and have relationships with a member of the same sex.Again it is the same for my nephew. He will have to live with the predudicial views of some people for being unable to form intimate relationships with a female. God made him that way for a reason. He should be able to live his life according to how he was made and love and be loved by someone he chooses and who chooses him.

well as somebody said, now he has come out, he will be able to be part of the gay community and go to the gay & lesbo mardi gras and participate in all those things and "rights" that normal folk have "no right" to, being normal.

like why no straight people's mardi gras with topless girls etc etc?

the point is as I said before and featured in American Beauty, why do they have to rub it in our face. like any "discrimination" as such for homos etc vanished about 30 years ago and since then it has just been more and more boo hoo for them and by them [even using the family court now], quite apart from hijacking the formerly nice word gay. IMHO get over it, and stop venting.

Apologies divorce doctor if you feel I am venting a little too much.
My reasons are due to the fact there have been comments made here on religious grounds, which to my mind are wrong and unfair.In any case I have nothing to 'get over' other than having a genuine desire to support my sister and my nephew, who actually does not get involved in public displays of his sexuality. Having said that,what is wrong with a colourful parade? If it 'happened' to a close member of your family you may feel differently,or perhaps you would just say the person was a gay political animal who deserved everything thrown their way! Read my first post.There is still lack of tollerence by some members of society towards gay people ,or my nephew would not have considered leaving this earth when he was 16 years old, due to being shunned at school and made to feel like an outcast! Yes things have come a long way and yes some of the politics and exclusive nature of some the gay community can be annoying, but again I say walk in the shoes for a day and go through what my sister and nephew went through for years and you may begin to uderstand!

I have recently had to come to terms with the fact my sister has just announced to the family her 20 year old son is gay.As with many families of gay people the thought was always there.The greatest shock has been hearing about the pain and suffering my sister hid from everyone for many years, etc

as a 20 year old in 1965, my father was totally shocked that his son's name was drawn from a barrel [1 in 9 chance] to go and fight what Pib Iron Bob called The Yellow Peril [now is that "racist" for a start?], AND that I didn't even have THE RIGHT TO VOTE for that cretin doing what Latham was to call a Congoline of Suckholes to LBJ

I had no real choice as consientious objectors were jailed and spat on just the same as we were spat on after returning from Nam

so back to your issue and all the associated "concerns" about "rights" of homos, femmos, boat people, black people.

the commonality for all these is Lawyers, who beat up all these "rights" issue for no other reason than making money and the stupid public gets on the bandwagon

who CARES about "sexuality" [once more an invented word by the lawyers, like racism, sexism, whatever].

and yes 10 years ago my 16 year old son was separated from me by the lawyers of the family court industry [called relocation] and I was told, by his sister, he was considering suicide, but the one person who could have helped was not allowed to see him, and of course it was the separation from his dad that prompted the depression but NOBODY is allowed to say that as there is money involved

But if I said boo about one of these darling Yellow Perils, now living in Oz and with every CentrLink benefit know to man/woman and a huge pile of taxpayer funded lawers at his disposal, then I would be in the clink

frankly, some 20 year old who says I'm gay, please help me everybody makes me want to puke

Divorce Doctor,

“… why do they have to rub it in our face. like any "discrimination" as such for homos etc vanished about 30 years ago”

Visible discrimination complaints appear to focus on rights not even imagined a decade ago and you might therefore have trouble adjusting to while traditional discrimination appears all but disappeared back then. However, if you look beyond adults to children and youth things are different. Indeed some research suggests that people heading toward gay identity as an adult interpret verbal discouragement by other children (who apparently want them to fit in and make an awkward attempt to assist) as a hate attack. Accordingly, such children experience actual verbal (and occasionally physical) bullying and also pressures which in their reality are suffered as bullying. By the time they are rubbing things in your face they have gone through some pretty unpleasant experiences that you missed out on.

Consider Mike Tyson. As a young child his obvious difference resulted in continual bullying and taunts of “little fairy boy”. His main ‘friends’ were pet pigeons who he spent his time with. The pigeons clearly meant so much to him and he must have loved them dearly. He was so victimised that a bully stole his pigeons and let them loose. It was predictable how upsetting that would be to young Mike knowing not only that he had lost his loved companions but that they were domestic birds at mortal risk. That is how horribly treated an up and coming gay man can be.

“… and since then it has just been more and more boo hoo for them …IMHO get over it...”

See above. Further, the hard to believe “boo hoo” that you probably mean, isn’t the typical gay person going about their life. It is a rhetorical tool used by gay activists who like to exaggerate the victim concept for political gain. We have changed from a heroes and villains culture to a perpetrator and victim culture so playing the victim gets results. Just because the “boo hoo” gay people are visible doesn’t mean they are representative.

SKOUT,

I know its easy to say when one is not the person copping it but: take no notice of those who feed you the same kinds of comments that your nephew faces.

No matter what, no-one is going to gain universal acceptance. Had you written about a nephew who had just been through a divorce, or had successfully committed suicide or had been forced onto the dole, you would still have attracted the odd negative comment. One simply can't please all of the people all of the time.

Instead of unsuccessfully trying to engage with people who do not look at things in the same light, take heart from the support that has been given from other complete strangers here. Put the negative comments out of your mind and recollect instead that your nephew has, in fact, gained the support and good wishes not only of his family but of everyone who took the time to committ their feelings to words in this thread.

Don't forget, either, that all those good wishes also attach themselves to you and far outweigh any momentary unpleasantness you may have felt from the one or two with other views.

On the contrary divorce doctor.My nephew has never cried for help,he has only cried to be left alone to get on with his life without discrimination and bullying such as he suffered at the hands of his school peers and their parents, who would not let there sons near him or his home, incase it was infectious! Also on the contrary, at 20 years old he gives loads of his free time to a worthy cause. He is a fully fledged and trained member of a voluntary organisation that serves to help others in times of trouble.As in all realms of society there will be the woe is me faction.You should not generalise and place everyone of a type into the same basket! I hear your own plight and sympathise with what you have been through, which must have been hell!It just seems a pity that you should see fit to compare situations and give marks out of 10 to personal suffering and the understanding that persons suffering deserves..Nobody is immune from pain in life and I believe everyone deserves a sypathetic ear when that pain is real to the person who is unhappy for whatever reason.To say someones plight makes you puke is very sad indeed.

Thankyou Romany,I appreciate your comment.It is too easy to foccus on the negative comments and forget about the majority of people here who have been supportive and who I am grateful for...This is all very new for my family and as time goes on and with the help of forums such as this, which enable you to express feelings etc,it is becomming easier to accept and understand. We are all getting to the stage now when my nephews name is mentioned his sexuality is not the first thing on our minds,wich feels so much better!Infact personally speaking my upset at the situation and what he went through has gone and I see in front of me another amazing relative who adds to the wonderful complexity of life.

SPKOUT

There are forums far more supportive than this. OLO is not by any stretch a support group. I suffer from chronic depression and at various time have participated in forums on websites like BeyondBlue.

The people here who have nothing more to offer than judgements and insults aren't worth wading through to get to the people who do understand.

However, Romany said more people than not have supported you here - which for a forum of this type has to be a real plus - for you and others going through similar challenges.

Maybe the following site will be more geared to what you are seeking:

http://www.reachout.com.au/index.asp?mci=3&mwi=2&tii=22

Interesting fractelle and thankyou.

Chronic depression sounds like no fun at all.As it is usually chemical, I suppose you just have to ride the wave when it happens and make the most of the good times.

All the best!

thanks steelman for making people aware of the changes that are happening not only at grass roots but also amongst leadership in some pentecostal charismatic and evangelical circles.

for those who want more details I have an article on my blog that will answer your questions.

http://alifeofunlearning.blogspot.com/2008/07/celebrating-our-future.html

the question is not "will the the pentecostal world officially change their view of homosexuality" ...the question is "when".....and the next question is what can we do to hasten this day and stop all the tragic unnecessary suffering that is being caused by the outdated and ill-informed view that homosexuality is a pathology.

My morality is a choice.....my sexual orientation however isn't.