Today is Ludwig’s third anniversary of OLO involvement. Yarhoo! (pats himself on the back)

He’ll celebrate this evening…and reflect on just what he’s achieved over the thousands of hours spent on it.

What do other posters think? How is OLO progressing?

Is it a meaningful forum for all the participants who feel the need to express their views or push their barrow or try and change the world?

Do any of our country’s decision-makers take any notice at all?

Or is it just a means of waylaying and placating those who might otherwise be participating in social, economic and environmental affairs in a more meaningful way, thus allowing our illustrious decision-makers to make less well thought out decisions and receive less flack for them than they might otherwise?

Could it be that OLO is actually working against the best interests of the country, people or environment?

Well, I'm interested Ludwig, but it doesn't look like anyone else is. Do I get a sense that you think arguing about issues with others makes you less effective as a citizen?

Hi Luddy...

3 yrs? 1000s of hours? now THAT's scarey..... I did calculate [Work Rate x Time on OLO] and it came to about $28,000 :) for me. That was about 12 months ago.

But it provides a good opportunity to bounce ideas off other people.

I've never have known as much as I now know about many things had it not been for being challenged and mocked :) by.. errrr *nameless individuals*

It also reveals just how much prejudice there is in the secular mind, .. where the entrenched view is "If you disagree....you hate" That applies mainly to the leftish side of politics I feel.

I've also observed a pronounce intolerance among those who shout "tolerance" the loudest. Being able to document this is a bonus.

Then there is the 'compassion' based on pure sentimentalism rather than solid fact or responsible foundation.. another characteristic I notice.

Above all.. OLO allows us a place to 'joust' in the field of ideas..and even though we disagree on a lot (many of us) it's still very healthy.

Do our Leaders take notice? why of course they do.. I've noticed how much government policy has in fact taken on the flavor of many of my posts :) hahahahahah... that should cause a stir.

Congratulations Ludwig!

In the short time that I've been involved
with OLO - it's been my pleasure and
privilege to meet so many worthwhile
people in cyberspace.

I've learned a great deal both about
myself and others through the various topics
that have been covered.

I've learned that a sense of humour definitely helps.
I've learned that there are subjects that
can bring out the worst in some people,
especially politics, religion, gender issues,
and even topics like art/photography, can
generate some heat.

But, from all of it - something good usually
results if only in self-examination and
questioning. I'm blown my fuse a few times,
when the right buttons were pushed.

However, all in all, OLO has become a very
important part of my life - it keeps me on
my toes mentally. Makes me think (and sometimes
re-think) certain subjects. It stretches my
imagination. My research skills have improved.
What more can one ask of a public Forum?

Once again, Congrats! And I hope that we shall
have the pleasure of your company on OLO for
many more years to come.

All The Best,

“Do I get a sense that you think arguing about issues with others makes you less effective as a citizen?”

Graham, I think that debating issues and espousing your views makes you a better citizen. Much better that than apathy.

It makes you more effective as citizen inasmuch as you are learning and contributing to the governance and health of our future. As far as I’m concerned, apathetic people or people who are only interested in matters that directly affect them or matters that aren’t related to the big issues that we are now facing are …well….second-class citizens, quite frankly.

I’m of the mindset that we really all do have a fundamental duty of care about our society and that we should be contributing to its wellbeing on a regular basis.

OLO makes this a lot easier than it used to be.

Polycarp: << That was about 12 months ago. >>

But Porky, you've only been on OLO for just over 4 months...

Seriously, for me OLO primarily provides a forum for expressing ideas and experiencing a more diverse range of views than I would otherwise encounter in the small country town where I live.

I doubt that many "decison-makers" take much notice of us, but some of their staffers might. I occasionally get feedback from other Greens members for some of the comments I post here - far more people read the articles and comments, comoared to those who post here.

I don't see how OLO could be "actually working against the best interests of the country, people or environment".

CJ "actually working against the best interests of the country, people or environment"

I took that to refer to the fact that many of us are spending our time discussing, arguing, rebutting the same crowd over and over again here rather than spending that time writing letters to pollies and others who have an actual role in decisions.

I have the hope that there is a greater possibility of actually impacting on others thinking here compared to being the author of yet another letter to a polly, filtered by a staffer and responded to with a form letter. Some of what we learn here may impact on our response to issues in discussions elsewhere, I know that I've learned lots in my time on OLO and that flows on into my attitudes elsewhere.

R0bert

I'm a fascinated with this conversation. It's my perception that very few opinions have changed in the course of a debate. And the academic literature tends to support that perception.

If anyone has changed their mind on an issue, I'd like to hear about it. Perhaps when we are engaged in the debate our minds appear fixed, but away from the debate, when it's not a matter of potentially losing face, we do change our minds?

It was one of our hopes in founding OLO that people would change their minds, and we deliberately tried to avoid building a site where only one side of the argument would be represented. Cass Sunstein's work on polarisation of group discussions was particularly influential.

Graham, my experience is part of a broader change in a lot of values but OLO forms a large part of my chance to explore other viewpoints.

Changes I can think of where I'm confident that OLO has played a significant role.
- David JS and in particular one post from some years ago got me thinking about homosexual men more broadly than I previouslty had. At the time the public persona of the male gay community was very camp and David put up a post basically saying how "blokey" he was which in itself proved little but triggered a significant rethink on my part.
- Whilst I've disagreed with CJ Morgan quite often I've also agreed with him enough that I had a better look at what the Greens are about and changed attitudes there.
- I think exposure to both sides of the argument regarding feminism has forced me to rethink some views on that front. My sympathy and support for the need for feminism has been increased significantly from contact with some very thoughtful feminists and by the extremes of some of the feminist opponents.

I'll think about that some more. There will be other changes where OLO has played a big part in changing my views over time. Maybe not often within a specific discussion but rather as triggers for longer term rethinks.

R0bert

Graham,

1. I haven't changed my position on supporting secularism. However, researching for the OLO debate, has have me now lean more towards the probability Jesus Christ existed in history. Before OLO, I felt he might be a composite of several people.

One frustration, I guess, is some parties will debate and jump thread, especially, if the discourse is not their liking. Likewise, when citations are provided to support an argument, it is poor form when those holding counter-views disappear, rather than present a stronger case or concede. (Abeit, Boaz-Poly did eventually concede that Herold the Great was not alive when Jesus was born)

To my opposition, George and Philo seem to engage in true debate. I have enjoyed those encounters, respecting their posits. Sells preaches but doesn't engage. Sells is like a Lanchester over Dresden, he drops a few bombs and leaves. Boaz-Poly, is, I feel, somewhere in between, answering some points raised, while creating new threads, whilst there was plenty meat on the old ones: He does have an up-tick side.

2. Happy Third OLO Birthday, Ludwig. I wonder, if Graham can arrange something with Hallmark to produce OLO anniversary cards? :-

Hmmm "For Lud's a jolly good poster... and so type all of us."

Best wishes to Ludwig and to all,

Oly

Happy anniversay Ludwig! I do enjoy reading your posts - well done!

The greatest benefit to posters on OLO, I believe, is the knowledge imparted by others - often from opponents too. And if you are a crusader with a passion, far better to bore the tripe out of posters than a continual soapbox bombardment of the poor old family and friends eh? Happily, posters aren't obliged to participate in a subject which to them, contains little interest.

Apart from that, I bet there are just as many reading these threads as there are participating.

And rest assured, governments and their agencies hate reading negative comments about themselves.

Obtaining information from libraries these days is often too time consuming and though most OLO participants probably don't believe they make a difference to society, I am of the opposite view. It is far simpler to download information these days from your computer. The important part is to distinguish fact from fallacy.

For "a man without knowledge is a danger to society."

Cheers

I think OLO has a value... but it would probably be small?
A good effort by one Graham Young etc anyway.
The concept is good, but the age is poor.
Most things have been done and the growing rebellion in society leads many not to listen...to anything.

I think its too late for it to have much political influence because of the strength of One World Government upon Australia.

The politcians live in their own world manipulated by faceless men from overseas ...and because of technology theres little need for them to leave their offices anyway.

They no longer know the people.

Towns and bush communities will need to look after themselves from now on...re: medical, food, policing.
Find what you can on the endtimes.

OLO is a good venue for those few who want to express their thoughts on many subjects.

As with all YOUR SAYS it encourages some violence.

I get aggitated after a few weeks and have to leave, like now for a few weeks.

Hope you all have a Merry Christmas if I dont see you before... and dont forget what Christmas is all about.

HIS Name is Jesus.

A tip for a recession?
Be happy to learn to live with less:)

Good one Ludwig, never saw a post from you that offended me.
I however remember some including a farewell to a poster we both liked who died.
OLO?
how do I start?
Years ago hand writing a three page weekly news letter and photo copying it 38 times.
Faxing it all over NSW kept my Sundays indoors [work related as a union delegate].
An ex government 486 PC came my way.
It had to, my spelling was so bad I could not understand it!
Spell check had a nervous break down and the NSW RTA bought the best it could find for me at work.
A country Foreman took the time to teach me and I found a forum.
The old was it Australian politics?
My thoughts are forums do far more good than harm.
But would find some of my scrabbled eggs posts there, even here in early days hard to take ownership of.
Attempts to replace that forum failed.
One who posts here took one replacement over it struggles.
OLO?
Yes it is good we do not wast our time each of us must understand we are not always right.
But I have a motto to live by , remember I did what 1000,s of eldest country children do, left school young to work
While I live I learn is my stolen motto I have learned a great deal here in OLO.

The scarey thing is Ludwig is that I've been posting on OLO consistantly for 4 yrs and you have excelled my number of postings.I thought I had OCD.[Obsessive compulsive disorder.]Hey I was posting before comments were recorded.

The good thing about this interaction is that it does improve our writing skills and does give us facts and ideas which don't happen in the mainstream media.There are subtle changes in our opinions which over the years we don't notice.Experience rather than interaction changes opinion more.

Graham you have an excellent site and have to a large extent eliminated the abuse and poor quality comments I see on other sites.Do not feel downtrodden by your detractors.Perhaps it is time to re-invent aspects of your concept,but the basic foundations are sound.

Good on you Ludwig, keep hammering the population growth, & immigration problem. It's going to take a mighty effort, as it's much easier to manage growth, than a stable economy, but time may tell.

Who would have thought that the greenies would have so much infulence, 30, or 40 years ago.

With that thought, you had better plan a long life mate.

Hi Ludwig

Interesting thoughts. I am not sure that the pollies are sitting in anticpation at each posting on OLO to guage public perceptions but perhaps their minders are just a little bit. The pollies of today seem very poll-driven so maybe the comments on OLO might act as a thermometer on certain issues.

I think we might be a biased sample, most of the posters seem to be over 40 but I might be wrong.

OLO is one way that we the public can have a say - whether it has much effect we cannot be sure, but it is certainly a Forum where you can get your opinion out even if in 'real life' one is not so opinionated.

Graham's point about changing minds is probably correct although I can say that some posters have made me re-think my position on a couple of issues. Maybe because of the collective age of OLO participants we are all pretty set in our ways with our entrenched viewpoints, prejudices, biases and intolerances.

(ps. you are a lovely bloke and it is always a pleasure to see you on OLO)

OLO is a great forum for the fundamentalist. This includes Christians, Atheist/Secularist. Pressed hard enough everyone holds to absolutes. They just vary in nature. Topics where world views clash are common place. I think Graham Y does a great job overall. The forum has taught me how much of a hate their is in our community for biblical absolutes although talking to people in the community suggests that these views are a little over represented on OLO. I am also surprised how many criticize the Holy Scriptures and then claim to have Jesus on their side. One thing is for sure and that is that what is in people's hearts are revealed (for out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks). I think at times some posters are high on dope or just had one to many wines. Shalom.

Ludwig,
Good on you. Like many posters on OLO I do not always agree with you view but in the main I think we have much in common on some issues.

I have learnt a lot from OLO as there are many threads that I read and learn from but not neccessarily take part in the discussion. I try not to get annoyed when another poster seems to deliberately misinterpret what I have to say. That teaches me to give more thought to what I say and how to put it. I get a bit frustrated though when I cannot think of the word I want, until it is too late.

But all in all, I think it is beneficial to all who read and post here. I do not really try to change anothers point of view but think that some other person just may take on board some of it.

Graham you and staff do a good job IMHO, so keep it up. I look forward each day to see what articles come up for discussion and my interests have broadened.

Ludwig, hope to see many more of your posts. Agree or disagree, you have my respect.

For my 2c worth I must say that I too very much appreciate OLO both in its capacity of "MicroCosm" and also becoz of some of the highly entertaining and gracious Souls that frequent this place.

[Brief Note] Some gay friends co-incidentally are "threatening" a visit from France. Their internet price SING -> DENPASAR Euro500. I booked their tickets for them from inside Indo, approx $AU100 each.

Why? In no small part because of their IP address. Yes, IP herding and economic control. The solution, in part, scramble yr IP and jump into a different zone with a local IP number. Some example sw:
http://www.freedownloadmanager.org/downloads/proxy_hide_ip_info/

Also effective when u get IP banned from this place. The security here is lame. Once u've been chucked out, u can create a new account under a scrambled IP and once done, can continue to enter OLO on yr old banned IP number. Great crowd, but the SW seriously sux inc no smilies, can't post pics and can't research and buddy specific individuals. Of course, the above has legitimate uses and is not necessarily only for "wicked rogue poppets" such as mySelf.

...Adam...

P.S.
Why is that U remind me of someone very dear 2 us RObert?
It was perhaps the:
"Yet yr Yes b Yes & yr No b No" line me thinks.
ms.cr.as.+RO
So gentle, so refined .. but a curious co-incidence only no doubt?

P.P.S.
Only grave news from Indo I regret to inform. Best perhaps though I retire back into obscurity an bcome an impartial observer.

P.P.P.S.
!The Solution: GreenBrowny 4 President!

Morgan: << comoared >>

Erk, that's simultaneously what happens to unreconstructed Marxists who find themselves in a tinny under my command (which doesn't happen exactly all that often), or a nice example of one of my pet hates about OLO: i.e. the inability to correct typos that inevitably occur, despite the sensible requirement to re-read a comment before posting. But that's quite piffling, really - particularly in light of DreamOn's fascinating post above, which explains much to me.

I'd suspected that something like that was up, but any particular professional expertise I used to have in computing and the Internet ended about a decade ago. It explains alot about the various shifting and multiple identities that pervade OLO, but fortunately those who play those games seem to be less prevalent at OLO than elsewhere.

I'm more interested that some people have quantified their OLO participation in terms of labour hours. For me, it's most definitely a diversion, an engagement with the world outside where I actually am. I have a very nice life in a lovely ittle country town, which includes owning a small business that makes enough to pay the bills and providing my partner with a modest income, while I do the managerial side and run the place a couple of days a week. The rest of the time I'm busy mowing, slashing, pruning, spraying - fishing, as often as possible - cooking, cleaning, painting etc etc

[cont]

[cont]

What I mean is that OLO is a very valuable pastime and engagement with the wider world for me, but it in no way equates to "work", and also that I don't pretend that I can possibly change any of the wider world via my participation. If I really wanted to do that, I'd get my act together and publish something.

Having said that, and taking on board particularly R0bert's comments, in general terms over several years, OLO hasn't changed significantly any of my core values and beliefs. However, through interaction with various OLO members (of whom R0bert and Ludwig are excellent examples, among many others) I've developed empathy and insights into perspectives that I hadn't considered before.

My opinion is that Graham Young and his associates have created an excellent Internet forum for expression of ideas and opinions, that overall does very well when compared with other sites. Goodness knows I've fallen foul of Graham's standards of argument more than once (and at least one time was justified, in retrospect...), but it still remains my favourite site for Internet interaction.

Of course, it has nothing to do with the fact that I'm an eccentric old fart living in the bush.

I successfully resisted ending the last sentence with a smiley.

I like a grin, and that can be found in this forum.
But C J Morgan has explained another reason I like the forum.
My small town is smaller than yours CJ betcha.
But only 40ks from holiday center.
I do not except us old blokes and gals are stuck in the mud.
I harvest new ideas daily and drive constant change at work and in life.
Every forum I was ever in was not unlike this one, one was as good, but most highlighted the worst in too many posters.
Age?
Why does it matter? I see the very young and the very old in print here you can some times see it as clearly as body language but not always.
Had no idea CJM was an old bloke.
One thing we must confront in any forum is some will always need to push ideas we can not except, we are not forced to read them or reply to them but I often forget that.

Thanks for the kind words Foxy, Oly, dickie, Belly, Arjy, Hassy, pelly and Banjy.

I’m humbled.

For me, one of the really great things about OLO is the feeling of respect that I get from many fellow posters. It comes at a time when I badly need it – I seem to have lost respect or failed to gain it in from my peers the first place in my work environment, and gained some pretty deep disillusionment as a result, for my efforts to achieve higher levels of effectiveness in our core duties, which revolve around environmental care, sustainability and good biological science.

Another great part of OLO is the entertainment value.

Polycarp: “That was about 12 months ago.”

CJ: “But Porky, you've only been on OLO for just over 4 months...”

Aaaahh haaa hahahaha!

Happy third OLOversary as of yesterday, Ludwig.

Let me tell you, GrahamY's surprisingly early observation in the second (un-hard-numbered) post was not correct. Only pressure of other commitments prevented me from being the first respondent to your opening post. Graham's blake dog must have been pestering him at the time.

One of course seldom knows, amongst OLO users who (quite legitimately) use aliases, with whom one may be exchanging views. Perhaps that is one of OLO's great strengths. The quality of argument and written expression is more important than reputation or public image. These two features of OLO enable a potentially productive exchange of views without the constraints of conventional political debate imposed by such things as the demands of party loyalty, or an order of government business as determined by a dominant few.

With thousands of hours on the OLO clock, Ludwig may indeed himself be a political 'plant', but he is certainly no vegetable. He does display an abiding concern with two possible certainties: environmental death, and taxa.

Ludwig asks:

"Do any of our country’s decision-makers take any notice at all?"

I suspect some may. I believe I have seen a former Prime Minister viewing, and both a former Governor-General, and a serving High Court Justice, posting under aliases on OLO. Maybe even a former State Premier, but I'm not quite so sure about that. On the assumption that such persons still have social contact with serving politicians, you would have to think some notice would be taken of at least some of the issues raised, or views expressed, on OLO.

OLO also lets such people blow whistles, if so inclined.

Ludwig is really forcing us to ask ourselves 'What do we see the function of OLO as being, and how well does it fulfil that function?'.

An answer to Ludwig's final question might well be both yes and no, for it is a multi-dimensioned question. I think, on balance, the typical and safe Australian response to most dimensions of the question would prevail, and be 'no'.

Blarst! A damned typo on my Awlmark OLOversary card for Ludwig. Blinding stupidity!

Graham's 'blake dog' indeed! Should of course read 'black dog': how depressing, at such a time and in such a place that we have no means of correction at our disposal. How in blazes did I do that typo? I know I sometimes do an order-reversal on common letter combinations, but even if I did that the 'e' is nowhere near the 'c' on the keyboard. There I go, belly-up again, almost as if by rote.

I don't suppose the withholding of such an editing feature could be GrahamY's way of maintaining a memorial to a one-time Roman governor of Judea, could it? What we have written, we have written, it continues to appear. A singular testament to obscurity if true.

Enough of my b*--** railing, and attempts at, em ..., bossing Graham around over Forum features.

Oliver,

Polycarp conceding that Herold the Sic was not alive when Jesus was born? That was Great, even if unheroded. Can you post a link to that discussion? I would love to see the arguments for such a conclusion. I have a feeling the doctrine of Typos may have some as yet unrecognised bearing upon this contention. Let's resurrect it.

Liked your "For Lud's a jolly good poster... and so type all of us." Real Marlborough country stuff, that. All smoke and errors.

Hello Forrest,

I will check, but I am in the middle of marking. Could be a few days. Herod the Great was alive 7 BCE and that would make better sense with regards the powers of the Herods (appointed by Julius) than Herods (later the Annas) under Augustus. Sense, in so much, that Jewish continuous calendar, which was approaching 4,000, and the House of David being deligated the task of promoting Judaism to the Gentiles.

Ludwig - a little late in the day, as usual, but I join my good wishes to that of the other posters here.

These days I have very little time to participate as I once did but for me there are two things which cause me to keep coming back when I can. The first is the unending delight from the unexpectedness of peoples replies. Just when one thinks that someone has been pegged, they post a response or an idea that shows the futility of ever trying to compartmentalise human beings.

The second is the discipline of forcing the expression of an idea into 350 words. I consider this is excellent training for any writer and it also clearly shows up the extraneous or irrelevant. Though I am constantly surprised at how differently people interpret posts.

Oh, and Belly, my dear. One thing I have noticed and on which I have meant to comment often (but I didn't want to seem patronising) is how your style has changed. At first your posts were often difficult to understand due to your admitted unfamiliarity with the rules of written English. But you have taken every single well meant piece of advice you have been given to heart and consequently your writing style makes your ideas clearer. I admire you tremendously and it just goes to show: you CAN teach an old dog new tricks.

All the best again, Ludwig.

I must belatedly add my congratulations too, Ludwig - not so much on your notching up of milestones, which I guess many here can lay equal claim to, but on your calm, consistent and all round decent style of posting.

I started on OLO just a little earlier than you, and I clearly remember you as one of the first posters with whom I could disagree and yet still engage with in meaningful and productive dialogue. Your fairness and decency stood out then and still do to this day.

On a lighter note, I'd love a dollar for every time you've used the word 'population'; I'd be a bit closer to retirement than I am now!

Like you, I'm also in two minds about the usefulness of OLO. It is certainly a great public forum which brings together lots of minds on lots of issues, but I sometimes wonder if the time we spend here could be more usefully spent in other areas of public service, for example, writing to newspapers and politicians and participating in a more hands-on capacity in community groups and activist causes.

Having said that, I am more than happy to sit at my chair and contribute through my keyboard!

Hey Ludwig
Cool thread. Congds Nice to see you both enjoy and appreciate OLO

I am not sure how long we have been on - not game to look.

I am just wondering if any body else thinks with the economic crunch to come perhaps we should all put in a few bucks a month to keep OLO going.

What do others think ?

Wow, a bunch more people to thanks: Forrest, Romany, Bronwyn, and PALE…and all the unmentioned contributors to this thread.

Arjay, you thought that you had obsessive compulsive disorder with 1933 posts in 47 months. I’ve often wondered about that, with 2243 in 36 months.

So where does that leave CJ, with 2461 in 26 months? ( :>|

Or Polycarp/Boazy with 6199 in 46 months ?? ( : > |

No. No OCD. Each to their own. I appreciate CJ’s comments on how his OLO life fits in very nicely with a variety of other indoor and physical activities.

.
R0bert; “….many of us [on OLO] are spending our time discussing, arguing, rebutting the same crowd over and over again here rather than spending that time writing letters to pollies and others who have an actual role in decisions.”

Yes, that is certainly the case for me. I was very active in non-government environmental organisations, produced and presented a community radio program, wrote copious letters to newspapers and to pollies, wrote media releases and occasional articles in newspapers, ran for a state government seat, etc.

I don’t do any of that stuff any more. OLO is almost entirely it for me these days, apart from my job which is very environmentally-oriented. But as to whether that means I’ve been waylaid from more effective pursuits or not, I just don’t know. But I’m inclined to think that regular contributions to OLO are a more effective means of airing my concerns and being involved in current affairs and debates than all of that stuff ever was.

Graham; “If anyone has changed their mind on an issue, I'd like to hear about it. Perhaps when we are engaged in the debate our minds appear fixed, but away from the debate, when it's not a matter of potentially losing face, we do change our minds?”

I can think of one very calm and lucid poster who seemed to quite considerably modify their views after a few exchanges that we had, and one totally rambunctious obnoxious poster who also seemed to modify his views quite considerably after many exchanges, although he’d never admit it.

As for myself, no. Certainly not on my core issues of environment and sustainability. But I’ve been very open to modification on subjects like Bill Henson, Palm Island, road safety, etc….although I don’t think I have ever significantly changed tack on any of them.

So yes, you’re probably right, our minds do by and large appear to be fixed.

Oh uh, hold on. With climate change, and indeed with all the really big issues centred on overpopulation and overconsumption, my very long-held views that we desperately need to maximise our efforts to bring these things under control in order to reach sustainability….is now being questioned deep within my own head.

As I’ve said a couple of times on OLO recently, I am getting the feeling that even our best efforts may actually do more damage than good, by stretching the human impact on the planet out into a longer timeframe.

It may indeed be best if we just continue with business as usual and bring on the crash sooner rather than later.

Ultimately, a quick peak and a massive die-off may be much less damaging to the planet. And anyway, we really are kidding ourselves if we think we can do anything of the necessary level of significance about climate change, population, etc. We’re deluded if we think we are going to avoid a massive crash event….aren’t we?

Perhaps the most self-centred, profit-driven, greedy, corrupt ‘antisustainabilityists’ of all are actually the greatest environmentalists of all!

I've just been re-reading some of this thread
and it made me think - has OLO ever made me
change my mind on certain issues?

Yes it has. The most recent one that comes to
mind was the one on China. I started out very
set in my ways until Romany's valid points
made me have a total re-think. Although I
don't think I admitted it at the time (sorry
Romany), she had quite an impact on me.
And, I now admit that I did change my narrow
point of view on the topic.

That's one of the things that I have appreciated
about OLO. The lucid and valid different perspectives
makes you re-examine subjects in a totally different
light.

And that in itself, I think is a good thing.

Ludwig,
Thinking about it, yes OLO has altered my thought on some matters
The thread about girls, of 14, going on the pill without parents consent or knowledge. I was very surprized to learn that some girls can pass pubety without having discussions about body changes and sex with their mother, at least. I did not think that possible in this day and age.

There are possibly other subjects where my opinion has also changed to some extent.

Foxy,
Your last post was extremely gratifying to me. I sincerely hope I didn't push for a particular viewpoint, but if something I said caused just one person to think about China from another perspective then I'm really happy.

As for me personally. I don't think anything on OLO has caused me to change my opinion on something because I am, as I've said before, a rather wimpy person. There are very few things upon which I actually make up my mind: I kind of do a juggling act with pro's and con's and add what I learn to one column or another, but don't very often get to a point where I draw a line underneath them.

However, if it was a question of have I learned anything from OLO, the answer would be a very definite yes. Too much to categorise. I've learned about the human condition, the variability of life, about greed and corruption as well as loyalty and unexpected kindness. I've learned things about string theory and agriculture and history and movie stars and writers and philosophers and subjects I didn't even know existed. As well as the shamefull revelation that I have been misusing the words It's for years.

And I've also made friends from these threads, whose support and involvement off-OLO, has brought me much happiness.

I've also learned to write a post in white-hot anger OFF LINE and then go back when I've cooled down and delete three quarters of it!

Blarst!! A damned typo…and in the first sentence of the post!! Pfpfpfpfff.

‘thanks’ should be ‘thank’. Isn’t it amazing how even one letter out of place can be REALLY irritating!

The little sscoundrel ssurvived a sspell and grammar check and at least 20 re-reads!

I share your frustration with this sort of thing Forrest, and CJ….and I do dearly wish that there was the opportunity for us to correct posts after they’ve been posted.

It would be soooo good if new posts appeared in red print for half an hour, during which time they could be retracted and altered. Perhaps they could have a heading such as;

‘Subject to alteration for 30 minutes after posting. It is recommended that you do not respond until print turns black.’

.
PALE; “I am just wondering if any body else thinks with the economic crunch to come perhaps we should all put in a few bucks a month to keep OLO going.”

It would be good to know just exactly what the financial situation and long-term outlook for OLO is, so that some of us could assist financially if need be, or actively recruit new posters or whatever might be needed.

Perhaps all contributors should be considered shareholders and Graham should publish an annual report as an OLO article each year (or a summary with a link to a detailed report) so that we all know just where it’s really at.

Actually, I have heard that OLO is not the supposedly free and open forum that Graham Young would have everyone believe it to be and that Graham Young arbitrarily bans discussions that he does not approve of.

There are many questions in Ludwig's opening post.

So I'll try to answer one from GrahamY's second post, the eighth in the thread.

I have recently changed my mind on a relatively major issue, not so much because of the arguments put up by other posters, but because of the character of the debate here on OLO. Long before I had any involvement with OLO I had become familiar with the technique of 'argument by abuse' during the course of attempting to raise public awareness in relation to another issue.

I learned from that experience that when one encounters fairly consistent argument by abuse, there likely is substance in one's concerns, and some vested interests see themselves threatened by the very discussion of the subject. When that abuse comes from, or is applauded by, people in high places, you can be reasonably sure the line of your own argument somehow threatens to reveal impropriety.

The issue upon which I have changed my mind is that as to the possibility of there having been some form of collusion on the part of elements within the executive government of the US in the 11 September 2001 terrorist attack upon the World Trade Centre. I had previously closed my mind to such a possibility. Too complex. Too far-fetched.

Then I saw argument by abuse on the '9/11 Truth' thread.

Spurred by that recognition, I read the e-book 'The New Pearl Harbor', and perused Thompson's 9/11 Timeline. These major references point up seemingly serious discrepancies and curious coincidences that strain credibility. They are a worry. They lead me to suspect the event was not so much a successful terrorist attack as a failed coup attempt against duly constituted authority in the US.

Having written a little here on OLO on the old Pearl Harbour, and being in the process of outlining the basis for a fully constitutional coup here in Australia on the 'Power without pride' thread, I feel obliged to post on the '9/11 Truth' thread.

New pennies have dropped re 9/11.

Moron

He also bans gutless twits that post in two names , Dick.

I take it that is why you created a second comment on the Selective Animal Cruelty thread.

In case nobody told you ( which would indicate a ALP follower:) the world faces the hardest financial times ever.

Australia will be harder hit than in your wildest dreams.

We are free to express an opinion or ask a question. Many people gain pleasure from sharing their views on OLO.

Some: even learn

Also it would be incredibly selfish of us all imo, if we didn`t consider the business owner`s that made that possible.

Now let me whip out my crystal ball .....and see if there are any messages in return for the Moronslayer..
*arbitrarily*

Ar, alas spirits looking for the Moron.

Spirits message as follows ....

ALP- MLA ...

also saying late: home: alone: big house:, lots of trees.... ... blood: sorrow : to any involved with letters above.

I had to ask if I wanted to re enter a thread that had been full of interest.
Well yes I must Graham owns OLO, he has stopped some, two in fact of my threads from breathing.
One in my view was ok one clearly not.
It is his right.
If he was some dictator a great many posts would never appear.
If he did not offer some control the forum would have died years ago.
Now Ludwig, I thought I would check my post history, one day less than yours!
Please forgive the first few hundred intent is the same spelling not good.
And in the last week my opinion has changed because of OLO.
Will not re visit PFs thread but I no longer think as I wrote while I would not eat it suckling pig has been on mans menu for century's.

GrahamY
Re your points 1.40 6/11/08

I think you may be a bit ambitious to expect change of opinions over a chat site.
I would suggest a more realistic question might be.
“Has anyone modified or further researched an opinion their own or someone else’s as a result ofsomething on this site?”

I would readily admit to all three, Ok not those who clearly go in with a closed agenda but certainly others including Ludwig.
My objectives on this site are to exchange ideas, gain topics for thought and challenge others to do the same not gather converts.

I would also argue that NOT to discuss issues makes you less of a citizen. It is only by communicating that we can hope to understand our fellow citizens. There are those who don't see others as people but as threats and as a consequence can't move on from their state of fear.

From an analytical perspective remember that the Prado effect (20/80% rule) applies. Therefore if 20% of readers or posters answer to at least one of the above question that’s a lot of people. Then if we add to that 7 points of contact to anyone in the world Kevin Rudd is getting all the advice he needs. Ergo don’t sell the impact of your site short.

Besides which according to one poster I have found my calling a wannabe Emeritus Professor and I thought I was just a wannabe smart Alec :-)