According to the WWF http://tinyurl.com/5cbbbb Australians are consuming four times as much per capita as we should.

"So Australians are among the biggest consumers of the world's resources.

"The sustainable average round the world is probably about two hectares per person. So we're using about four times more resources than we should be."

But when you look at the map in the Living Planet Report, which is produced by WWF and is the basis for these comments http://tinyurl.com/5mfqoy you find that we have 50 to 100 percent more biocapacity than we need. Canada does even better 100 to 150 percent more. However the Mediterranean, India and China do much worse having less biocapacity than they need.

This suggests to me that rather than using too much biocapacity, we aren't using enough. Someone has to take up the slack to feed these other countries.

The concept of an ecological footprint is a good one. But its quantification is extremely difficult. There are just so many factors, some of which are highly variable or just about impossible to confidently quantify.

A figure of about two hectares per person on average around the world is just extraordinarily fuzzy.

But one thing is certain; it is well and truly time to stop the human impact on this planet from forever increasing.

If we were to take up any biocapacity ‘slack’ in Australia in order to feed other countries that have overstepped their mark, we would be highly irresponsible as we would just be feeding the growth of the continuous human population and thus the continuously increasing ecological footprint.

If we could implement population stabilisation measures forthwith around the world, then it might be appropriate for countries with under-utilised biocapacity to increase their output. In other words; if increased output improved the quality of life for millions of people that are desperately poor and malnourished without facilitating any further population growth, then considerably increased ecological damage in some biocapacity-rich countries might be a reasonable trade-off.

But its not really worth thinking about, because we aren’t going to deal with the population issue.

So therefore we should not be increasing our output in Australia, at great ecological expense, in order to feed overcrowded nations. We should be looking after this continent and striving to limit the ecological damage and achieve a sustainable society.... and helping other countries to do the same.

Ludwig, I'm not sure that we have that moral luxury. Forcing a proportion of people to starve because someone else's population is increasing doesn't sound like a defensible proposition to me.

Graham, it may not sound very nice, but he really is right.

Flying food, & aid into a starving, overpopulated country, or region, so they can increase the birth rate, even more is not very smart, or kind.

Increasing the number due to starve next time, when you know a next time must occur, is not any more humane, than doing nothing, it just makes you feel better.

It's like saving a joey from its road kill mother, in an area where roos are being culled because of overpopulation, it's kind of stupid, & you know it is, when you do it.

It's only in the last 50 years that we have almost eliminated mass human starvation events, all round the world, & just may be, we shouldn't have. It has always been natures way of controlling the population of all things, including us.

*Forcing a proportion of people to starve because someone else's population is increasing doesn't sound like a defensible proposition to me.*

Graham, its not about forcing a population to starve, but the
question arises, how far do our obligations go, if people refuse
to be responsible for their own actions?

You are really trying to go against the laws of nature here.

Let me put it another way. If I have 11 children, is it your
responsibility to feed them all for me?

Now if you were prepared to offer some birth control and family
planning for my wife, that might just be the more sensible solution
in the longer term.

*Graham, its not about forcing a population to starve, but the
question arises, how far do our obligations go, if people refuse
to be responsible for their own actions?*

Yabby
I agree with you. Thats why we disagree on shipping off our raw materials and our jobs to ME and China.

```*So now you agree its our place to prodive our own food in Australia.*```

That good. I take it you have now changed your mind about Australia being the largest supplier of live animals in the world and relying on bringing it back in through China etc.

I am very pleased to see that Yabby because the milk scare is just the start.
Good I can go to sleep now knowing you will support producing our own milk and meat products to feed our own people and export the rest which creates jobs for Australians.

Very good Yabby.

I am so pleased Graham opended this thread.

Glad you finally see the light.

PS btw they now make birth control for men too.

You should tell your wife when you find her:)