I think you are missing the point Boaz.

>>If you tolerate those things which will ultimately undermine your social standing, position, culture... freedom etc.. by all means do so, but there is a cost<<

Do you have a "for instance" in mind?

Are you suggesting that a prayer hall for 35 people can undermine my social standing? Or that someone choosing to wear a veil threatens my freedom? Or that someone who chooses to pull out a prayer mat halfway through the working day and kneel on it for a few minutes affects my position as his manager? Or that a Greek guy who still supports his country's football team has, or will ever have, an impact on my culture?

I suggest that none of these is at all possible.

Even more oddly, you suggest that

>>in avoiding the conflict, there will only be 2 possible outcomes.

1/ A bigger conflict later on.
or
2/ Your own identity will be subsumed by those you are tolerating<<

Switzerland, as I pointed out on another thread, has avoided international conflict for many years. Are they simply storing up a holocaust for themselves down the track? Do they not continue to display a uniquely Swiss identity - despite, I have to point out, the inbuilt disadvantage of being host to three languages?

>>Point 2 can be avoided only if you don't have any sense of identity which you hold dear, and can simply go with the flow of everything around you.<<

Tolerance is not about subservience, Boaz. It is about making room for people who don't share your narrow view of the world. You don't have to imitate them. You don't even have to approve. Just tolerate.

It does occur to me that you are willing to be described as intolerant, yet you actively disapprove of intolerance in others. Would I be right?

Pericles...

Switzerland:

1973 20,000 Muslims
1990 152,000 Muslims 2.2%
2001 310,000 Muslims 4.26% (only 36,000 have Swiss nationality)
Between 1990 and 2001 the Swiss population increased by 4%
Clearly, 2.06% of those were Muslims.

National fertility rate 1.47 per woman.
Muslim fertility rate for new immigrant women is 4-5/woman
2nd generation Muslim women is less, but still more than the Swiss.
Population growth rate .43%/annum
If the National fertility rate is 1.47 (decreasing)and the population growth is .43% i.e. barely growing. Growth can only come from women who are more fetile than 1.47 hence... from where ? and the demographic social question of importance... TO ..where ?

Now..given that Islam is a "political" system, the obvious question is how might this growth effect Christian Swiss ? I'll leave the echos of Hilali in your ears to prompt your own answer to that.

You might not have a problem with someone dragging out their mat and praying at specific times, but in our culture I do. If it was a manufacturing environment, it doesn't work. or..is simply discriminatory. What is someone said "My religion requires me to pray for one hour every 3 hours ?" You have to have common standards, and with our cultural system we have them.

Only 2 cantons in Switzerland have separated Church from State. Those 2 alone have had legal challenges from Muslims to the prohibition of wearing the veil. Most interesting. Sounds like "Use freedom to advance specific incompatable cultural objectives"

You may not dread life under Islamic Sharia, but I'll bet you would if you experienced it, given your secular values and freedoms.
Have a natter with the Mufti of Perak or Kelantan... 'Separate checkouts' for male and females at supermarkets ? No mixed bathing ....Many of your existing cultural cues gone....have fun.

Your approach consists entirely of leering nudges and innuendo, Boaz, and is quite irritating.

>>Now..given that Islam is a "political" system, the obvious question is how might this growth effect Christian Swiss ? I'll leave the echos of Hilali in your ears to prompt your own answer to that.<<

You appear to be suggesting that at some point in the future, Switzerland will not only become a Muslim state, but an extremist one at that.

This is exactly the kind of dog-whistle racism that does you and your religion no credit at all. In fact, it is becoming difficult to determine which is worse, the intemperate rantings of a renegade cleric or the needling scaremongering of christian fundamentalists.

>>You may not dread life under Islamic Sharia, but I'll bet you would if you experienced it, given your secular values and freedoms.
Have a natter with the Mufti of Perak or Kelantan... 'Separate checkouts' for male and females at supermarkets ? No mixed bathing ....Many of your existing cultural cues gone....have fun.<<

QED

Pericles: "...it is becoming difficult to determine which is worse, the intemperate rantings of a renegade cleric or the needling scaremongering of christian fundamentalists."

Quite so. I've made the same point myself.

I also think you're right that they key issue here is that of tolerance - which is a virtue that is deficient in fundamentalists of any persuasion. Futher, IMHO it is the absence of tolerance, rather than the existence of cultural difference, that underlies much social discord.

Fundamentalists - including but not limited to those obsessed by religious beliefs - are by defintion bigots, since their world view does not permit the existence of contrary views.

This is of course why there's little point in trying to debate with them, except perhaps for entertainment value :)

BD inhabits a very small but steep-sided hill. Every way he looks there's a slippery slope.

It's a pale, distant hope, but maybe one day he will learn that the way to defend his hill is to get along with all the people around, rather than hurling down excrement upon them.

(cross-posted by mistake at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5105 :(