Snout, I reckon BD has identified one of the non-negotiables: "Australia is the most tolerant country in the world"

Tolerant:

# showing respect for the rights or opinions or practices of others
# kind: tolerant and forgiving under provocation; "our neighbor was very kind about the window our son broke"
# broad: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's opinions"
# able to tolerate environmental conditions or physiological stress; "the plant is tolerant of saltwater"; "these fish are quite tolerant as long as extremes of pH are avoided"; "the new hybrid is more resistant to drought"
# showing the capacity for endurance; "injustice can make us tolerant and forgiving"; "a man patient of distractions"

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

STEVE... re the MultiCultural council thingy...

"objectives included raising awareness of cultural_diversity and promoting social_cohesion, understanding and tolerance"

I'm wondering.....does anyone else see it ? :)

DIVERSITY and SOCIAL COHESIAN. errrr..cough...splutter... choke... gasp.....

The person who wrote that knows very little about 'culture' I feel.
"The shared beliefs and behaviors of a group/race/tribe"

Now..practically speaking, you can only have harmony to the extent that (just like the old Venn diagram) you have 'overlap' of agreement or compatible values.

At every point where there is 'conflict' or.. simple difference, a choice has to be made.. "yours or mine" ?

Bottom line, there are so many holes and flaws in that 'objective' that it could only ever have been coined for political purposes.

If 2 cultures are only 20% compatible.. errr 'cohesian' ? NOOOO.. it will be fracture, disruption, conflict and disharmony.. "I'm Chinese, hmmm I'll make my business sign only in CHINESE" errrr...seems silly doesn't it, if not for the very fact that this is what Marrickville council is grappling with.

How could anyone be so incredibly THICK headed, ignorant and discriminatory, not to mention racist, as to put a foreign language ONLY on his business ?

Well..that is 'the thing'...they do ! and thats just one example. What about speaking ONLY to those of your race in YOUR language in the tea room ? We had a blow up about that once.. 3 philippino girls (out of say 10 people) spoke ONLY to each other, in THEIR language, and totally isolated the rest of us. We tried to include them, but it was like they had to be mentally re-oriented each time. One looked quite strained at the thought of actually having social interaction with 'us'.

Something I value highly is COURTESY in mixed groups.. and that includes language. Clearly 'my' (aussie?) value was in conflict with that of a small sub group and when the issue was raised (not by me) it exploded into a very loud anti_Australian yelling match.

We want to include...but the "culturally exclusive brethen" sometimes just don't wanna be included :)

do for others......etc

Boazy

Maybe my point of view is different because I have felt the descrimination of the primacy of the dominant culture.

I am an immigrant from anglo-irish roots, I arrived in Australia in 1969.

The dominant culture was rugby league, I played soccer with all the other wogs. In fact I was the only english speaking wogball player in the team.

I remember one kid who said "Australian's can fight, have you ever heard of Johnny Famechon", the idiot did not even realise Famechon was French.

I then reminded him of Enry's 'Ammer and was never picked on again.

This was way before multiculturalism, Australia needs tolerance and acceptance not vilification of minorities because it gives people a sense of superiority.

What a boring place we would live in if we all accepted the conventional wisdom of the dominant culture.

Boaz, once again your stance fascinates me.

>>Yesterday I had the pleasure of a friendly chat at a picnic ground with a friendly bloke of Greek birth.

He told me "Australia is the most tolerant country in the world"<<

What I cannot work out - and you are going to help me with this, I'm sure - is whether you see his description that we are "tolerant" as praise, or as a term of opprobrium?

As w kindly pointed out, tolerant means "showing respect for the rights or opinions or practices of others", being "forgiving under provocation", and "showing or characterized by broad-mindedness"

Yet everything you have written on this subject places your position at the other end of the tolerance scale.

You are continually putting forward the proposition that we should be far less tolerant of other people's opinions or practices, but instead somehow reprocess them into a replica of yourself, and opinions and your practices - the Australian way.

Do you see my problem?

Did you point out to your Greek friend that you believe this to be a grave failing of Australian society, to be so tolerant?

Or did you enthusiastically endorse his opinion, contrasting it with the repressive background he described for his erstwhile homeland?

Time to make it clear, Boaz. Do you see yourself as tolerant? Do you really see Australia as tolerant? And is it a good or a bad thing, this tolerance?

Steve First.
I don't think anything I've said would justify your experience of discrimination mate... All I'm saying is that when there is an actual 'clash'....then something has to give. On balance, the newcomer should give way out of courtesy to the resident, but I'd not suggest this in some legalistic way..more of a guide.
Your experience calls for (what I've been calling for also) pro-active 'civics' education introduced which targets such things.

Pericles. You've been away ?...

You should realize by now that tolerance and what not exist within a moral framework. There are limits. We don't tolerate many behaviors we deem anti social (racist slurs) or outright criminal.

You know my position on such things as Radical Islam, Gay behavior,Abortion etc..
All I can do is vote. If I like the policies ok... no matter which way I vote, SOMEone is going to feel more marginalized or less tolerated as a result.... such is life.

I think tolerance should be thoughtful. We should consider social and cultural outcomes, (based on sound social research) and the will of the people.

For example the prayer hall at Baulkham Hills.. was vehemently opposed by local residents yet the courts were used to steamrole their feelings. If that prayer hall is built (might already be..I don't know) you can be sure there will be lingering community resentment about it, and for very valid reasons. (related to the social/political nature of Islam) This is where we have to apply 'educated tolerance' or the lack thereof.

The prayer centre was for 35 families. The council had 5000 written objections. Why ? because with a prayer centre 35 will quickly become...yes.. lots more. Why is this a problem ? Simple. cultural compatability full stop. Been to a mall in Bankstown lately ? Noticed the dress code ? Or Cabramatta ? Feel like you were in Australia or Saigon ? If a community has a cultural status quo, it also has a right to resist cultural intrusion which would make them feel alienated and marginalized,imho.

When ur on a good thing...stick to it :)

Pericles....

Some history.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2002/s750461.htm
2002
ABBAS ALY: The residents have a fear of the unknown more than anything else.
But I think the Mayor particularly has made comments that are quite detrimental to any culture, in fact, saying comments such as we fear for our women and ladies, for instance.
I find that hard to believe.

Key words "Fear for our women and ladies"

2003 "Skaf, who is a convicted serial rapist serving 55 years behind bars, drew the pictures depicting extreme sexual violence against women"
If you recall... 'race' was a factor in these serial rapes. They were raped because....they were Australian.

2006
Lakemba Mosque

"Uncovered women are like meat on the road.. a cat will come and eat it. Who's fault..is it the cats ? NO..its the meats"

SUMMARY
Putting all this together. It becomes clear that being 'Aussie' in a community where there are a significant number of Muslims, you would have a well founded fear of rape or persecution due to your race. In fact, you would probably be granted 'refugee status' based on this fear.

A considerable amount of attention was given during the trials to "But in their culture an uncovered women deserves to be raped".
So, all it would take for the already well founded fear to become virtual paranoia..would be a large influx of new migrant muslim males to Annangrove/Baulkham hills.

Now, knowing you, you will probably pick and scrape at my facts and reasoning..pointing out inconsistencies, and thats good :) its called debate.