Russia has invaded Georgia, because inter alia, the Russians allege that Georgian separatists attacked Russian Peacekeepers. Georgia is a friend of the USA (and by extension Australia), so the concerns arising from this are real and serious. Georgia has asked for a ceasefire (or offered a truce, different words but the same thing). Russia has described this as a cynical move given that the conflict was initiated by Georgia and has refused to contemplate the same.

America has since condemned this stance on the part of Russia, while decrying the use by Russia of airstrikes upon targets far removed from the region of Georgia which is the site of the major conflict.

What is lesser known is that the USA has admitted to having anything up to 150 serving servicepeople in the region at the moment (and prior) of the attack, by the Georgian army upon the Russian Army Peacekeepers', which attack was launched across an internationally recognised border. It would be extremely interesting to investigate whether or not the USA was aware of the planned assault, though I am sure the damage control teams are currently in operation and a scapegoat will soon appear.

This is interesting, whereas one couldn't get away from public comment when the Russian-backed Hizbollah attacked the IDF over the Shaba'a farms (disputed area) and Israel launched wideranging airstrikes to bring Lebanon to its knees, this is a role-reversed, direct parallel which appears to have escaped critical attention. I'd be very interested to see what the usual suspects think of the initial assault by American trained, armed & supplied insurgents and the validity of the Russian response. It certainly seems that this is going to be the way the future proxy-wars will be fought.

It is interesting again that Georgia has a lot of oil.Gough Whitlam ignored East Timor when we lost 5 reporters in the 70's,yet when oil was found in the Timor Sea,suddenly East Timor needed saving.

The US is using Georgia as a wedge to further isolate Russia and Russia wants the oil.Are we surprised?

1. When the U.S. began providing military assistance and training to Georgia, both the Washington and Tblisi claimed there was evidence of Al Qaeda hiding out in Georgia's Pankisi region, THIS WAS A BIG LIE! United States, is the largest military contributor, providing training and equipment for several years now.
2 Georgia and its breakaway republic of South Ossetia have always had an uneasy relationship. The first major conflict between the sides took place in 1918-1920. South Ossetia broke away from Georgian rule in a war in 1991-92 in which several thousand people died, Russia granted passports to most of its residents. Georgia signed a cease-fire agreement that left South Ossetia effectively autonomous, but unable to secure recognition by the international community A peacekeeping force with 500 members each from Russia, Georgia and North Ossetia was monitoring the truce.
2. On Friday, When the world leaders was in China, Georgian forces shelled South Ossetian population centers and launched a ground invasion deep into the territory. The city came under attack by aircraft, artillery and armor, and South Ossetia officials claimed that more than 2,000 people had been killed. THE OFFENSIVE WAS A GAMBLE, because Saakashvili should have had little doubt about Moscow's readiness to defend the separatists. Moreover, NATO officials had repeatedly warned the Georgian government against launching any attempt to resolve the dispute through military means.
3. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said his country is seeking "to force the Georgian side to peace". Russia launched massive artillery shelling and air attacks on Georgian troops. An American official said."This is a very localized conflict ... There is not a danger of a regional conflict at all in our minds,"
4. According to “THE WASHINGTON NOTE” Saturday, Aug 09 2008, 11:14AM http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2008/08/georgiarussia_c/ “Saakashvili who has been agitating for Georgia's membership in NATO just lost his chance with his own reckless behavior. Saakashvili's decision to send tanks into South Ossetia gave Russia the trigger that it may have wanted to send in more of its own troops and weapon systems. Russia was ready.”

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Our media have learned nothing from recent history and their ignorance (whether deliberate or not is another question) is shameful. I've learned something interesting here from hanagah bet that I never heard on the media broadcasts. The media have also apparently ignored the Georgian attacks on the South ossetians with their military. The news these days is almost worthless.

What was not mentioned is that Georgia's leader offered a ceasefire, last week, after 15 days of fighting, or that the assault was prompted (allegedly) by the breaking of that ceasefire almost immediately by the Ossetian rebels who proceeded to shell Georgian villages/towns. Also not mentioned is the direct military support and supplies provided by the Russian Army to the Sth Ossetian forces (also in Abkhazia) and has little time for the Georgian leader.

Perhaps this map might put the issue in perspective:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Caucasiamapussr.gif

Yes, the region bordering Georgia to the South is Turkey, the region to the NW is Chechnya, while the country not far to the South of Georgia (which also borders Turkey) is actually Iran (yes, the future NATO target).

What a lot of people don't seem to have seen is that the Russian Army is unlikely to invade Georgia itself, or be successful if it does (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3550183,00.html). The countryside is suited (as the Russians discovered in neighboring Chechnya) to defense, particularly by well armed and equipped irregular forces. Given the US support and the border with Turkey, the supply lines are secure and the Georgian forces could continue the fight indefinitely (especially when the remaining 2,000 front line troops arrive home from Iraq).

Why would the USA/NATO do so? The oil pipeline running through Georgia is vital to the security of NATO. I strongly suspect that the upcoming siege of Tskhinvali, in which the Georgian forces will occupy the high ground on 3 sides of the city, will end up as a defeat for the Russians in the long term. The combination of oil and military bases to the North of Iran/South of Russia make Georgia far too important for the Americans/NATO to consider blinking. That and the opportunity to test their latest munitions against T80's and BMP-3's makes this a proxy war of note. Don't be at all suprised to see the Georgian's reequipping with M1A2's and AH64's (there are actually pictures of knocked out Russian T80's in the news, these weren't knocked out by RPG's, no way in the world).

I read recently that the civilian population of South Ossetia were without water for one whole month, as the Georgians had cut the water to the region. The Georgians are war criminals in my opinion,just like the Serbians and Israelis.

I from Russia. We look CNN and BBS and simply we laugh at such lie from these channels. There show Tskhinvali - and speak that it Burn. Americans full liars. The given channels deform everyone.
Georgia in night since August, 7-8 has opened fire on peace city of Tskhinvali from jet instruments of rocket fire. The city is on distance of 5-7 kms from border with Georgia. Now all city in ruins, after bombardment Georgian àðòèëåððèåé August, 8. I saw this emergency staff and saw direct inclusions from military station of Russian peacemakers when on them shot a straight line. Russian very well always concerned to Georgians. And all Russian accuse Saakashvili of the GENOCIDE! Go and look that show on the Russian channel and you will understand all...
America main guilty of the given war because without its support Saakashvili simply would be afraid to begin the given war.
We shall not give unpunishedly to cut women and children. Georgians showered pomegranates in cellars where old men and children were hidden. They Fascists! At have shown on Russian TV of foreign mercenaries - africans from America (military advisers). What for there military advisers against the population of city in 25000 people?! Likely to help the Georgian militarians to distribute to ice-cream?! And it is ridiculous and very sad....
Go under the reference http://www.vesti.ru/videos?cid=15

South Ossetia = Sudetenland

Georgia = Czechoslovakia

Ukraine = Poland?

Meanwhile the usual crowd of reality deniers seek to explain away tanks crossing an international border in Europe – AGAIN!

That really is a stupid post stevenimeyer, particularly as this Russian has spent the time trying to take the wool off many of our eyes as our media are compromised as you can see.

The Georgians were trying to commit a genocide against the South Ossetians and murder Russian nationals. That much should be extremely clear to you.

Steel, before you simply react, look at what is going on:

http://newsblaze.com/story/20080811110228krzy.nb/topstory.html

http://finchannel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17911&Itemid=55

http://gizmodo.com/5035422/russian-hacker-mob-takes-over-georgian-web-during-invasion

As to Russia being the innocent party, Russia has long used the smallest possible incident to justify crossing international borders. If Russia was at all interested in peace in the region, why on earth would it have insisted upon excluding the UN from the region, instead using the far from disinterested Russian Army (a Division of the same under a Major General) as peacekeepers? That would be like allowing the IDF to police the ceasefire between Israel and Hizbollah, it would be justifiably regarded as a sham arrangement, the ultimate design underlying which would be deemed to be that of further prosecuting military objectives under the guise of peacekeeping.

I really wonder why or even how, someone could be so deluded as to believe Russia on ANYTHING to do with human rights, especially when one side consists of ethnic russians and the other side is guilty of having opted to join NATO and distance itself from Russia (costing Russia $ billions in lost foreign exchange deals into the bargain).

The world is really a lot more complex than you seem to paint it.

I never said Russia were clean on this, but certainly litte to no criticism of them can be made at a political level considering the West's aggression in several recent conflicts under complete fabrications...... and their own control and interests in Georgia. It's almost comical to see countries like ours and Condi pointing the finger at Russia when they have active interests in Georgia themselves.

stevenlmeyer

1. Analysts agree the current conflict between Georgia and Russia was sparked by Tbilisi last week when it sent troops in an effort to take control of Tskhinvali, the capital of Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-08-11-voa63.cfm

2. Do not forgot the Kosovo! why people of kosove have the right for independance and not the people of South Ossetia?

3. We heard many lies against Iraq and we are not ready to beliebe more lies against Russia, when everyone knows who and when started the war. Proganda could be usefull in some cases but when it is very cheap then always bring negative results. It is not bad if we learn to say the truth.

4. A good lesson for America! Do you believe Georgians could start this war without green lights from USA? A small, poor country started a war with Russia, even if a person from a mental hospital could not do it! Israelis started to understand what happened and stoped any exports of military equipments to Georgia.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Yeah,

Of course we would want to be fair to the Russians because they're such a nice bunch.

You clearly have no idea what Russia going to war entails. You squeal about civilian casualties caused accidentally by western armies. Wait until you see how the Russians fight. Just look at how they handled the Beslan school massacre. "Heavy handed" has a picture of the Russian security apparutus next to it in the dictionary. Think Serbian army inside srebenica.

They are ruled by an ex KGB chief who has managed to maintain his stranglehold on power, subverting the Russian parliament and the office of president by appointing his own Flunky.

Russia has, under Putin, re instituted its aggressive behaviour in Europe and seeks to expand its influence by any means necessary. Russia's recent threats against former soviet states joining NATO is just one indication of this new aggression. The non-stop program of flights of Russian nuclear armed bombers on patrol as far as Britain has been restarted. Putin is sending a message loud and clear.

Your standard refrain that its the west that is BAD and everyone else is just one of our victims falls down mightily here. There are no nice guys in this fight. Georgia rightly doesn't wish to part with South Ossetia, anymore than Indonesia wishes to part with Acheh or West Papua. There are a plethora of other comparisons.

Further Georgia is a tiny country with a small military. Russia is Goliaths big brother in comparison. And Russia is looking to raise its influence in the region and send other troublesome neighbours a stern message. Don't Mess.

The loons are all around.

ASymeonakis,

Russia has sent tanks across an international border in Europe.

That is fact.

It is not a lie.

You suggest the US egged Georgia on to send the military to South Ossetia.

South Ossetia is part of Georgia. Georgia has every right to send troops there.

Russia accuses Georgia of mistreating the inhabitants of South Ossetia.

And you are prepared to take the word of Vladimir Putin on this?

Remember, Hitler accused the Czechs of mistreating the Sudetenland Germans. That was his excuse for sending the tanks into Czechoslovakia. I suspect that Putin is no more reliable than Hitler.

ASymeonakis

Do you consider it possible that Russia is motivated by the desire to exercise de facto control of the oil pipeline that runs through Georgia?

Or, in your universe, is it only Americans who go to war for control of strategic assets?

If you were the defence minister of Ukraine, another former Soviet republic, what lessons would you be drawing from this Russian intrusion into the territory of a sovereign neighbour?

stevenlmeye

1. Georgia signed a peace agreement with South Ossetia and a peacekeeping force with 500 members each from Russia, Georgia and North Ossetia was monitoring the truce. Georgians VIOLATED THE AGREEMENT AND ATTACKED THE CAPITAL CITY OF SOUTH OSSETIA BY AIRCRAFT, ARTIRELY AND ARMOR. THIS IS A CRIMINAL ACT, KILLING MORE THAN 1500 PEOPLE. Saakashvili HAD TO GO TO INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT AS HAPPENED TO MILOSOVITC!

2. YOU FORGET THE KOSOVO AND SERBIAN! I ASKED YOU " why people of kosove have the right for independance and not the people of South Ossetia?" stevenlmeye, WE ARE HONEST AND BRAVE MEN AND I ASKED YOU AGAIN. Why people of kosove have the right for independance and not the people of South Ossetia?

3. I wrote you what the AMERICAN analysts say. do you thing they are STALINIST TOO? They say "Many experts are at loss to explain why President Saakashvili decided to send troops into South Ossetia at this time. But many analysts, including Marshall Goldman from Harvard University, say that move was a serious miscalculation"
http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-08-11-voa63.cfm
With your way, you lose your credibility, and I feel sorry, because you have plenty and good ideas, We can not build a better world if we hide the truth.

4. "Russia accuses Georgia of mistreating the inhabitants of South Ossetia" NO, South OSSETIAN people want their own state and separated from Georgia many years before start the KOSOVO STORY. The KOSOVO IS INDEPENDED BUT NOT SOUTH OSSETIA. WHY NOT?
5. "is it only Americans who go to war for control of strategic assets?" HAHA!! WHAT ABOUT THE INTERNATIONAL LAW, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT, THE UN? ANY ONE WHO MAKES WARS TO STEAL THE WEALTH OF OTHER COUNTRIES, STRATEGIC ASSETS OR NOT HAD TO BE IN PRISON. About Russians in this case they came second! Georgians attacked Russian peacekeepers and Russian citizens, the Russia respondet.
TELL THE TRUTH GEORGIAN ATTACKED FIRST, VIOLATING THE OLYMPIC SPIRIT FOR PEACE DURING THE OLYMPIC GAMES, THEY HIT CIVILIAN TARGETS WITH HEAVY ARTIRELY.

Continue

Part two

Paul.L
"The non-stop program of flights of Russian nuclear armed bombers on patrol as far as Britain has been restarted" REALLY? The world is full of American military bases, they violate international law, UN, they invade in any part of our planet, the whole world, (read BBC surveys) are sick from agreesive American foreign policy and you speak for Russia? They are weak at the moment! BUT IF WE DO NOT PUT AN ORDER IF WE DO NOT STRENGTH, SUPPORT THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, THEN IN THE FUTURE WE WILL HAVE BIG PROBLEMS NOT ONLY WITH USA AND RUSSIA BUT WITH MANY OTHER COUNTRIES!
It is to the benefits from humanity to create strong international law and order, and this could do not happen if we do not stop the cheap propaganda. The truth is the best tool to solve problems and promote peace and prosperity.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Well said Asymeneokis. What you've said is accurate.

stevenimeyer>"Russia has sent tanks across an international border in Europe. "

What do you think happened when NATO invaded Serbia, a sovereign nation? This is no different from US unilateral actions against sovereign nations.

One million or so Iraqis are dead because of a US invasion of a sovereign nation.. that's what makes this all so funny when Bush says, "Georgia is a soveriegn nation...Russia is violating international law" or something like that..I had to groan out loud when I heard those words repeated as this conflict resolved itself. Even a five year old could recognise the embarrassing hypocrisy

Everyone keeps pointing the finger at Russia's supposed ambitions. Who exactly has all of their bases around the world and is invading random countries it disagrees with, destroying billions of $$ worth off property and killing hundreds of thousands of lives? It certainly is not Russia. How many Russian bases do you see across the world? Now how many American bases? It's quite obvious who is actually the international aggressor and the unlawful nation which topples democratic governments throughout the world, such as places in south america.

I esteemed that you write and it is glad that in Australia too there are thinking and clever people!
I hope that my references have above helped you to receive more information on the Georgian atrocities in South Ossetia.
I shall tell one - I was in due time in Abkhazia and Georgia as the tourist is ïðåêðñíàÿ the country and very good people.
And Saakashvili simply new Hitler...
By the way today on CNN interrogation " was That occurs in Georgia "
For the answer - " Russian peace-making forces protect the population of South Ossetia " has voted 83 %!
Interrogation last equally day and has voted in it about 360000 people!

The saying is that "war is hell". William Tecumseh Sherman, it is claimed, certainly made it so, while he was marching through Georgia.

Hurrah, hurrah,
Who brings the jubilee?
Hurrah, hurrah,
Good or bad for you and me?
I wonder who will win this one,
and what that all will mean,
While they are marching through Georgia.

Joe Stalin came from Georgia originally, didn't he? Are old scores being settled? I guess we shouldn't rush to judgement, just refer the matter to the IOC so they can smack Vladimir Putin for desecrating the Games, with the threat of stripping the Russkies of any medals earned if they don't stop it at once! Yes, by Georgia, that's what should be done!

Will General Shallikashvili be brought out of retirement, I wonder, to head up the Reconstruction Commission? And how can one get to be a carpetbagger, in Georgia? A slick. oily, greasy carpetbagger.

Perhaps a realistic assessment of the situation:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,571680,00.html.

George,

I think der Spiegel is, as usual, right on the money.

Going further, though, the Europeans are heavily dependent on Russia for gas supplies. Their room for manoeuvre is limited.

The BIG danger is that Russia, overconfident after its victory in Georgia, will over-reach itself in places such as Ukraine. That is how World War 2 started. Britain and France kept accommodating Hitler until, one day, they couldn't. Then bang

But perhaps Putin and Medvedev are smart enough to read the lessons of history and refrain from starting anything that will cause a major war.It will be interesting to see whether the main EU powers increase defence expenditure after seeing Russian tanks cross an international border in Europe

RussianPatriot

I suspect you are a patriot of a soon to be extinct people.

ASymeonakis

For how long will there be South Ossetians, or Georgians, anyway?

Demographers look at the "total fertility rate" or TFR. TFR is the average lifetime number of babies a woman has. In first world countries the replacement rate TFR is 2.1 babies / woman. Anything less and the current generation fails to make enough babies to replace itself as it dies off.

All the major European countries have TFRs well below replacement rate. This may be the century in which Poles (TFR = 1.26)*, Spaniards (1.29), Italians (1.29), Hungarians (1.33), Greeks (1.35), Russians (1.39), Germans (1.40) and Georgians (1.42) become as extinct as the Hittites and Amalekites.

Of course these are average figures and hide a number of ethnic differences. In all European countries, Muslims migrants and their descendants have TFRs well in excess of replacement rate. The TFR for French-born Muslims appears to be about 2.5. For newly arrived immigrants it is even higher.

The arithmetic says it all. On current demographic trends, which includes relatively high Muslim fertility, large scale Muslim migration and native European fertility well below replacement rate, Europe will become increasingly Islamised.

My guess is the Netherlands will become the first Islamic Republic in Europe. Amsterdam and Brussels may be Muslim majority as soon as 2030.**

Will Europe's new populations even be interested in the wars the various European tribes fought among themselves?

RussianPatriot

The Russian population is declining at a rate of more than one Russian per minute.

*See: http://www.geographyiq.com/index.htm



**(See: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0412190554dec19,1,2183319.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

See also: http://www.islamicpopulation.com/index.html

Steel,

Your naivety and enthusiasm to find yourself on any side which opposes the US is unending. But it puts you in bed with a lot of truly unpleasant types.

If you had a clue you would know that the Russians are not the good guys in this situation (though neither are the Georgians). Do you even know how you feel about small autonomous regions becoming independent? For example Acheh and West Papua? Kosovo? East Timor?

.>> “One million or so Iraqis are dead because of a US invasion of a sovereign nation..”

The difference is the dozen or so UN resolutions, and the fact that the UN is cooperating with the coalition in Iraq etc. There have been no legitimate claims that the war was illegal. Only the loony-left have made this claim. And the number of Iraqi dead has been massively inflated by infighting for which the Iraqi people themselves must take responsibility.

>> “What do you think happened when NATO invaded Serbia, a sovereign nation?

NATO troops NEVER invaded Serbia. At least get that part right. They bombed Serbia to get the Serbs to stop their ethnic cleansing of Kosovo. When NATO troops under UN control marched into Kosovo they had the permission of Slobodan Milosevic. It was negotiated. The NATO forces were a peacekeeping mission. They did no war fighting. KFOR ground forces certainly did NOT go into Serbia, as the Russians have done to the Georgians. So please tell me how this is the same?

>> “It's quite obvious who is actually the international aggressor .”:

It might be obvious to a person with a loony-left political infatuation but to normal people the US is generally seen as a force for good and not as an aggressor. Just because you and a handful of your loony left mates have a problem with the US doesn’t mean there is anything edifying, truthful or universal about your claims. Only a seriously partisan observer could continue to lay the blame for Iraqi sectarian killings on the coalition

Stevenimeyer,
You are a true religious tragic. Not everything in this world comes down to Muslims V the Rest In fact you’ve cherry picked misinformation. I suspect that your comments are a deliberate attempt to foment mischief specifically against Muslims because it suits your idiosyncratic view of Israel’s needs.
Comments like…
• about Russian Patriot is over the top an extinct anything
• Holland going Muslim
and Your apparent smarts tend to rule out the remaining option.

Given that none of us have access to the cabinets of either government so any comments has to be a supported by fact and reason not prejudice.

There is no proof that either Russia or Georgia has a plan for genocide it’s all about control and dominance. Russia is claiming the high moral ground but with its brutal repression of Chechnya I doubt that high moraled liberation is in their minds.
Likewise Georgia is trying to enforce its sovereignty over its perceived territory. I think it’s probable that they were expecting more support from NATO.

It seems to me that if Russia wants the West to mind their own business when it subdues breakaway areas its Justification for this incursion is hypocritical and emphatically displays its intention of Hegemony of the breakaway area and ultimately Georgia.

In this case Georgia was the aggressor against the rebels. Under the UN ‘just War Covenant’ (sic?) Suppression of internal strife is covered….sort of. (I don’t agree that any such action is justified.)

A more interesting Question is what specifically determines a universal right for ‘independence’ ? I’ve yet to read a definitive definition. Anyone know of one?

The next question is how far will Russia go to enforce its hegemony over Georgia and other ex SOVIET satellites? My view here is that national pride is simply a cover for Russian Quest for power. Dr Johnson is right again “ Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel” .

BTW Russian Patriot, The USA’s its foreign policy behaviour is just as contemptible.

stevenlmeyer
"All the major European countries have TFRs well below replacement rate" This is an other story, much more dangerous from the Russia-Georgia conflict
I WORRY FOR IT AND IF YOU SEE MY POSTS ABOUT IT, ALWAYS I SUPPORT AND ENCOURAGE HIGHER FERTILITE FROM EUROPEANS, INCLUDING OF CAUSE RUSSIANS, NORTH EUROPEAN COUNTRIES GAVE SOME BENEFITS TO YOUNG COUPLES, SUPPORTING THE PARENTS AND HAVE HIGHIER FERTILITY, THE REST OF EUROPEANS MUST FOLLOW THE SCANDINAWIANS IF THEY WANT TO CONTROL THIS HUGE PROBLEM.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Examinator

I have presented the facts as they are. Russia especially is facing demographic collapse.

The proportion of the European population that is Muslim is rising year by year.

What I have stated is not even a controversial among demographers anymore. If you don't want to acknowledge the facts that is your problem.

Whether the Netherlands actually becomes an "Islamic Republic" depends on whether the Muslim populace there remains religious or becomes secularised. Neither you nor I can know that.

I hardly think an Islamified Europe "suits Israel's need."

I stand by what I said. On current demographic trends native Europeans will be an insignificant minority by the end of this century. Perhaps sooner.

Do you imagination that nations and peoples last forever?

Do you imagination that only Europeans can colonise other continents?

That the European "model" is the only way continents are colonised?

That Europe is somehow immune from colonisation?

C'est la vie, c'est la mort.

PaulL>"The difference is the dozen or so UN resolutions, and ...There have been no legitimate claims that the war was illegal. Only the loony-left have made this claim. "

-==-=-=-=-=-
Iraq War was Illegal, says Kofi Annan in 2004:

The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the BBC the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter.

He said the decision to take action in Iraq should have been made by the Security Council, not unilaterally. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm
-=-==-=-=-=-

Stevenimeyer is one of the anti-muslim posters. He's saying this because stupid people are unable to do simple mathematics. He is a spinoff of the anti-Asian racists who believe Australia will become Communist because of Asian immigration. He is peddling in hate.

I am beginning to get used to the repetitive statement that 'such and such is illegal' and/or 'contrary to international law'. Please, before simply repeating (parrot style) such things, try and ascertain that they make sense and/or hold water?

As to the legality of Georgia's conduct, here is a very nice, extremely simple and eminently readable essay on the legalities of the various positions: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3556349,00.html, written by Professor's of International Law for Duetsche-Welle.

Not mentioned in the article, but of some potential importance, is that having been granted Russian citizenship (as apparently all ethnic Russians in Sth Ossetia & Abkhazia have been - Russia supplied them all with citizenship & passports prior to the current events), the residents of Georgia who have taken such citizenship can presumably be legally and quite properly deported (even forcefully) from Georgian territory. All that would be necessary would be to enact a law, precluding the holding of dual citizenship by Georgian citizen's and depriving of Georgian citizenship all those who hold Russian citizenship. This in conjunction with the International Peacekeeping forces which will soon be deemed necessary, should result in a clear cut win for Georgia. As to this being ethnic cleansing, yup it is, exactly as has been practiced by Russia/Sth Ossetia & Abkhazia several times to date. This version would at least be legal (it is certainly legal to use force to deport illegal non-citizen's and even to detain them indefinitely, as is done in this Country NOW). A less drastic solution would be to simply prevent such non-citizen's from voting or having any legal entitlements/rights or freedoms within Georgia. They will leave of their own accord.

The single most important requirement, get a ceasefire and then get the UN to ensure the same. Proceed as above.

Georgia would then be well advised to invest heavily (as a priority) in air defenses (ie. Patriot, etc.), and other military hardware/training.

Steel

I am unapologetically anti-Islam. I find it to be a hateful ideology. The fact that it is dubbed a religion makes no difference.

Any belief system, any ideology, including but not restricted to agnosticism, atheism, Buddhism, capitalism, Christianity, deism, Fascism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Marxism, Nazism, Zionism and Zoroastrianism is a LEGITIMATE target for critique, analysis, satire and scorn.

The critic is under no obligation to abide by anyone's rules of "fairness." Nor is the critic obliged to consider the feelings of believers. There is no such thing as a right not to be offended.

Those who conflate criticism of a belief system with "racism" are making a category error. They also demonstrate that they are unable to argue or think rationally.

NONE OF THIS ALTERS THE DEMOGRAPHIC FACTS THAT I PRESENTED IN MY POSTS. Among demographers they are not in any way controversial.

It is you who is either unable or unwilling to do the maths.

Haganah Bet,

Good link. To the extent that international law means anything it is clearly on the side of Georgia. However that will not convince the knee-jerk anti-Americans here. They believe that any enemy of America is their friend.

But, having said that, I think international law is a myth. The Russian action demonstrates yet again that in international relations, in the end, might rules. Sad, but there we are.

The fact that the US should not have invaded Iraq – if for no other reason than that it was an incredibly stupid thing to do – does not make the Russian invasion of Georgia right.

Here is der Spiegel's analysis of how Putin outsmarted the West.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,571680,00.html

Message to anyone who thinks Russia's invasion was to help the Ossetians:

I have a bridge in Sydney going cheap.

Whether Georgia misapprehended Russia's likely response, or has taken an opportunity to bring itself to the forefront of world news (rather cheaply in fact), remains to be seen. The fact is that neither Sth Ossetia or Abkhazia have declared independence unilaterally and this underlines that despite Russia's willingness to intercede militarily, they are unable to mobilise world opinion sufficiently in order to allow them to so do.

What does this mean? It means that despite (or rather because of) Russia's involvement, the position of both of the breakaways has not improved. They are incapable of declaring independence, so Georgia has won (especially if, as appears certain, foreign UN Forces are used to monitor the new ceasefire). At the same time, public opinion in the countries that Georgia wishes to ally itself to, is squarely behind rearming Georgia despite Russian threats to provide advanced arms to Iran/Syria (this threat has been rather robbed of impact by the continued provision of Russian arms over the last 40 years).

Georgia's standing in the region is now sky high, they are the second nation in the Caucusus to stand up to the mighty bear, and the only one which world opinion ensured the survival of. Given the position of Georgia international military bases are almost certainly going to be built, while NATO membership is also virtually assured (given the reliance of Europe on Georgian oil).

See where this puts Syria, especially if Turkey & Iraqi Kurdistan can get along and if the Cedar Revolution can regain control of Lebanon (remember that Jordan is busily aligning itself with the West). Also note that Assad holds power solely because a minority controls so much of the military. Coup's are hardly a novel mechanism for regime change in Syria and given sufficient pressure/support from the USA/Turkey, it is a serious possibility.

Georgian losses appear to have been minimal really. In fact, given the ease with which their material losses can & will be made good and resurgent nationalism, they will actually be stronger and better equipped in a year than they were before this conflict began.

Steven,

You should read Mark Steyns "America Alone." He's very sharp (funny) and he addresses the fertility rate problems you have brought up. He has some silly ideas but his criticisms of the loony left are absolutely spot on.

Steyn makes the particularly poignant point that it doesn't matter whether 5% or 95% your population is western if you all believe in liberal democracy, but if a portion of your population doesn't believe in liberal democracy it becomes very important whether they are 5% or 95%.

The left doesn't want to hear about TFR's because they are mostly captured by the message of the high priest of the green religion that "PEOPLE" are the problem.

Of course they ignore all of the problems which are associated with an aging population (and eventually a shrinking population) in particular the damage it will do to our social safety net. Many causes dear to the left will be irretreviably damaged by an aged society.

They seem incapable of understanding that we aren't calling for population growth, merely sustainable birth rates which will stabilise our populations and potentially save our cultural/social institutions.

Europe is already struggling with the cultural clash that Multiculturalism unleashed upon an unwitting public. Things will undoubtedly get worse before they get better.

Was the War in Georgia a Neocon Election Ploy?
Is it possible that this time the October surprise was tried in August, and that the garbage issue of brave little Georgia struggling for its survival from the grasp of the Russian bear was stoked to influence the U.S. presidential election?
http://www.alternet.org/audits/94929/was_the_war_in_georgia_a_neocon_election_ploy/

Winners and losers after Georgia conflict
There are some clear winners and losers in the conflict over South Ossetia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7557915.stm

A country that has just walked into a short war with Russia will find itself slipping even further down the list of potential candidates
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7559222.stm

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said that she and a special State Department envoy had explicitly and repeatedly warned him not to take any military action against Georgian separatists that might provoke Russia, cautioning that the United States was not prepared to back him militarily if he did
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/world/europe/14saaka.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

The Georgians pretending to make peace and all the time planning a sneak attack on South Ossetia. They just signed a treaty granting autonomy to South Ossetia this week, and then they attacked. Georgian MLRS units barraged Tskhinvali, the capital city of South Ossetia; Georgian troops swarmed over Ossetian roadblocks; and all in all, it was a great, whiz-bang start.

if we can mess with his (putin) allies and let little ethnic enclaves like Kosovo declare independence, then the Russians can do the same with our allies, especially naive, idiotic allies like Georgia.

http://www.alternet.org/audits/94706/georgia_tries_out_the_bush_war_doctrine%2C_loses_badly/

International Crisis Group
Europe Report N°189
19 December 2007
Georgia: Sliding towards Authoritarianism?
The government’s repressive and disproportionate response to peaceful protests in November 2007 shocked Western capitals, which had viewed Georgia as a beacon of democracy in a region of illiberal regimes. Since the Rose Revolution, however, President Mikheil Saakashvili’s administration has become increasingly intolerant of dissent as it has sought to reform inefficient post-Soviet institutions, stimulate a deeply dysfunctional economy, regain the breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and deal with its meddling Russian neighbour

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

The expansion of NATO to include Georgia and surround Russia is an aspect of the undeclared war being waged over access to the oil and gas of Central Asia.And more immediately, the missile bases being established in Eastern Europe are steps in the implementation of the US doctrine of "nuclear primacy". Leslie