Given the contents of the document, the argument (not made in Collins’ book) that it justifies a primacy of conscience revision is not only implausible but reminds me of the seeds that fall along the path and don’t mature in Luke 8:5. Sorry for the diversion but Collins raises the issue as if it is a given and I would have preferred that he did more than that since I struggle with his position for the reasons I gave and it seems like a big issue.

That all said he has some insightful ideas about evangelism (p158-161) that I believe could enrich the Church.

Collins is an excellent writer dealing with subject matter in which I have a keen interest so it didn't take me long to get through the book. I would have prefer if he had stuck to our common ground as I would treasure a book that covered the things he did at the beginning particularly with the invaluable ideas of evangelism. He has clearly researched the former thoroughly and thought about the latter thoroughly. I empathise with him (without agreeing with him) with the way he seems to feel. I felt like the book brought out something of Collins the man and as I said that helped devillainise him to me. He isn't just some aggressor he is someone with an overlapping but different perspective who believes he is doing the right thing and can't understand why it won't take off. The more Bishops that thumb their nose at the Pope (even when he tells them that paedophiles can't be priests) the more it looks like he is succeeding but at the same time a Pope who participated in Vatican II as a Bishop and at one time displayed liberal tendencies didn't come to the rescue and he is frustrated that the Bishops aren't solving the problem.

That is basically what I got from the book. Your thoughts?

Dear mjpb,

Firstly, let me say how much I appreciate
your taking the time to be so open
and honest with me regarding the book
and its author.

I did not analyse it as you did.
I suppose my impression compared to
yours is a rather superficial one.
I simply read it and accepted what
was said. I took him to be the expert
in his field - speaking as an "insider."
I presumed he knew what he was talking about.
And much of it appealed to me, because I felt
he was speaking not only from personal knowledge
but from the heart. I believed that his
intentions were good ones.

I could identify with, "The core of the problem
is that the Catholic church has become lethargic
and passionless... still optimistic
that the church might recover, and that serious
change was a possibility."

and

"...it needs to be rembered that genuine faith
and belief is tested and everyone, even the
most committed, go through periods of aridity
and personal and interpersonal crisis."

and finally:

"The word 'Catholic' gives us the clue: it is derived
from the Greek "katholikos" meaning universal, of the
whole. In that sense Catholicism stands as the very
opposite of sectarian, particularist and narrow.
It is truly itself when it is embracing and inclusive.
It involves a commitment to God in Christ and to a
way of life that places a person in a community of
belief without geographic boundaries, and with a
sense of continuity and common history and tradition
reaching back through 2000 years to Jesus and the
New Testament. It involves a consciousness of God,
a sense of the presence of the transcendent in life,
a living culture and spirituality, an experience of
and feeling for prayer and worship, the sense of a
consistent creed expressed through varying theologies
and an evolving doctrinal tradition. Catholicism is
never static; it is always developing and
changing... the more the church grows, develops and
changes, the more it becomes truly itself."

All The Best,
And, again, Thank You so much.

Foxy,

Sorry to keep you.

"Firstly..."

Thank you very much.

"I took him to be the expert in his field - speaking as an "insider.""

He is well qualified and he does have inside information like the Bathersby story. I struggled with some things such as his history of celibacy and his primacy of conscience. Both of which he barely touched yet they seemed extremely important for what he was arguing.

"I presumed he knew what he was talking about."

The Evangelical thing I believe is extremely insightful and his Australian history, discussion of charities etc. and inside information I believe were spot on.

"...from the heart. I believed that his intentions were good ones."

I believe you were generally correct. It did seem to put something of himself into it and I believe he is very passionate in thinking he is doing the right thing. I think he gets a bit carried away about how he does it sometimes but with good intentions.

"I could identify with, "The core of the problem is that the Catholic church has become lethargic and passionless... still optimistic
that the church might recover, and that serious change was a possibility."

Oh yeah! Having discovered less visible aspects to it I note the exceptions locally and of course note World Youth Day but from general experience I identify heavily.

"...it needs to be rembered that genuine faith and belief is tested and everyone, even the most committed, go through periods ..."

Sometimes it makes people drift away. Sometimes it makes things stronger.

I didn't embrace the stuff in the final paragraph as much. It is mainly correct but it has some slight rough edges in that it occasionally seems to overextends facts IMHO and some of it seems inconsistent with other things he says.

"The word 'Catholic' gives us the clue: it is derived from the Greek "katholikos" meaning universal, of the whole."

When he went sectarian I wondered if he knew this and then he proved he did by stating it when it suited him.

CONT

"In that sense Catholicism stands as the very opposite of sectarian, particularist and narrow. It is truly itself when it is embracing and inclusive."

Rightly or wrongly my concept of the universal leans more toward the idea that worldwide the essential Catholicism and liturgy has a characteristic pattern not that all patterns are licit. St Paul's comments about being separate from the world may indicate some sectarianism but it shouldn't be sectarian within itself. However that doesn't mean it is indefinable or includes everything. The pattern of belief and worship should be characteristic of believers worldwide. Foreign priests should not be rejected because they don't do things the Australian way.

"It involves a commitment to God in Christ and to a way of life that places a person in a community of belief without geographic boundaries, and with a sense of continuity and common history and tradition reaching back through 2000 years to Jesus and the New Testament."

This is exactly my understanding.

"It involves a consciousness of God,a sense of the presence of the transcendent in life,a living culture and spirituality, an experience of and feeling for prayer and worship,"

This is exactly my understanding. Doesn't he normally think that we should understand things as historical rather than transcendent?

"the sense of a consistent creed expressed through varying theologies
and an evolving doctrinal tradition. Catholicism is never static; it is always developing and changing... the more the church grows, develops"

Again I believe the words are correct but sometimes it seems like it is er... all Greek to him.

Subject to minor issues I have with the last paragraph those were also highlights of the book which I didn't praise in my 'review'. Thanks for mentioning them.

Since we are probably having a private discussion by now did you want to take the thread off track and discuss anything else relating to the religion? I actually enjoy communicating about Catholicism without Gibo saying the Pope is an anti-Christ or Col saying the Church is horrible etc.

Dear mjpb,

I'm going to pull out of this discussion.

It's been very rewarding and interesting
but at the moment I've got a few personal
issues to deal with.

So once again, Thank You and please excuse
my wanting to end right now, but I've got a
lot on my plate at the moment - and I can't
give this the attention I would like and which
it deserves.

Dear Foxy,

"I'm going to pull out of this discussion."

All the best then. Thanks for the discussion.

"It's been very rewarding and interesting"

Ditto

"but at the moment I've got a few personal issues to deal with."

Good luck with them I hope they resolve satisfactorily.

"So once again, Thank You and please excuse my wanting to end right now"

No problem at all. Best wishes until next time.