I watched 'Lateline,' last night (15th July 2008).

The following website gives a summary:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/16/2304692.htm?site=sydney

I'll just quote briefly from it:

"The father of two girls who were repeatedly raped by a
priest while they were primary school students in
Melbourne is on his way to Australia from Britain
seeking a personal audience with the Pope.

Anthony Foster's daughters Emma and Katherine were raped
by Melbourne priest Father Kevin O'Donnell when they
were in primary school.

Earlier this year Emma Foster committed suicide at the
age of 26. Katherine developed a heavy drinking habit
and was hit by a drunk driver in 1999. She was left
physically and mentally disabled and requiring 24-hour care.

In 1998 the family rejected the then-Melbourne Archbishop
George Pell's offer of compensation, made under his
"Towards Healing" protocols, and spent eight years
in a protracted legal battle.

They eventually negotiated a settlement, believed to be the
largest compensation pay-out of its kind in Australia.
The initial offer of compensation would have been capped
at $50,000.

Despite an earlier admission and an apology from
Archbishop Pell, during the settlement the
Church's lawyers denied that any admissions had
been made about the abuse of the two girls.

Mr Foster says he will not accept a papal apology
to Australian victims of sexual abuse
unless the Pope also moves to change the way
those victims are dealt with by the Church and its
lawyers..."

The reason I've started this thread on this Forum is
that I agree with Mr Foster. It is
time for the Church to stop fighting the victims in
court. It is time instead to beg their forgiveness,
and offer them continuing help. It is time to
accept responsibility for the harm done. Unless an
apology is backed up with action, it won't mean very
much.

Your thoughts please?

cont'd

My apologies - I could have sworn that I had
typed the Heading for this thread correctly.
Obviously I didn't.

It should read:

"Rape victims' father seeks papal audience."

It was taken from the ABC website that I've given.

The latest from the Catholic Church...

"But I would have to say ... the cardinal has led in the church in this country in trying to put in better and better processes to deal for these things so that we get it right and, in the meantime, to do all we can to prevent this happening again and to bring healing and justice to the victims".

Relatively speaking, Pell might have done some leading. But he doesn't have much to beat. This is a classic case of making the bar so low, that anything at all can be construed as leadership. I would argue that people like Anthony Foster have exhibited much more leadership than anything you'll find in the Church hierarchy.

The real leadership role the Church can now play is to do something tangible to fix the problems that exist today as a result of its past actions.

Dear Rob,

I fully agree with you.

As Mr Foster told "Landline,' and I quote:

he will not accept a papal apology
to Australian victims of sexual abuse
unless the Pope also moves to change the way those
victims are dealt with by the Church and its lawyers.

He told the ABC's program that he believes his daughter would
still be alive if the Church had been more supportive.

"In Melbourne, Archbishop Pell put a system in place which he
says he is very proud of and he said recently he doesn't know
what more he could do."

"There's a lot more he can do. He can beg forgiveness
from the victims, he can offer continuing help to the victims
and he can just stop fighting the victims in court."

Foster says the Church must do more than it has so far to help all
victims of sexual abuse.

"An apology is not enough unless it is backed up with action,
unless he removes all obstacles to continuing support
for victims."

For the love of God - this must be done!

We can only pray that it will be.

Foxy,

I saw the interview last night and got the immediate impression that Anthony Foster, through his experiences, has a good handle on what is required and where the weaknesses are in the system. He should know - after all, he's run into all of them head-on.

I think it would be good if the Church had some of its own bad experiences in order to get its feet on the ground on this issue. It's a fact of life that people don't take issues seriously until it affects them. As long as the Church has its diversions (eg the World Youth Day) it can always crow about the positives.

In light of that, what's probably required is that some similar-sized third party does something to upset the applecart a bit. Maybe the courts could look to see whether the spurious legal defence the Church puts up could be routinely struck out of court, or perhaps the Government could look at hitting the Church with a bit of stick to perhaps get reform of the dominant Church culture.

If this doesn't work, we could be on the slow road to China.

Dear Rob,

I feel so strongly about this issue.

As I've said before, I was raised a Catholic.

I had "goodness" belted into me.

The "wicked" shall be punished. Was
the mantra I grew up with.

So, I'll be damned, if I'm not wanting to
see justice done in this case.

They should practice what they preach.

They "wicked" does not exclude Church hierarchy.
It's time they realized they can't say one thing
and do another.

Hypocrites!

I am not in any way saying it only happens in the Catholic church it happens in most Church's.
But it happens far too often in this church.
Never forget these men for century's have told us their God is our creator.
The reason we exist, and the world exists.
They constantly tell us how to live , even when to have sex and who with.
We are constantly told God loves us.
How?
How could any man serving such a God assault a child?
How could a church leader cover up for that man?
History is full of victims,all of the Church's history these poor girls area grain of sand among many.
If the church is to move on, if it can ,it must treat these pedophiles, thats what they are, like the criminals they are.
Tell me No story's about compassion ask your God what he would think.

Foxy, thanks for your sympathetic post.

I think there are several separable issues here.

1. The cynical and unduly legalistic treatment of complaints of sexual abuse which exacerbates the human suffering of the victims and their families.

2. The mean-spirited nature of the compensation scheme which arbitrarily puts a cap of $50,000 on any compensation without regard for all the different circumstances and takes no account of the Catholic Church's fabulous wealth.

3. The secrecy of any settlements which smacks of cover-up. Pay up and hush up.

4. Once paid out, the Church believes their moral responsibility is dead, as if they're saying, "Well, we paid for your pain, now stop feeling pain".

5. The fundamental paradox and hypocrisy of the Church defending itself and its employees in the courts against victims of rape and sexual abuse who refuse to be paid to shut up and go quiet. Where's the Christian compassion and virtue?

6. The Church leadership has no understanding that the fundamental causes of sexual abuse by clergy must be tackled in order to prevent abuse of priestly powers in the future.

7. The failure of Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals and Popes in the past - and now - to show Christian leadership on, and accept responsibility for, this crystal clear moral issue.

Dear Spikey,

You've summed it up much better than
I could have done. Thank You.

It's only by people applying pressure
to the Church's hierarchy - that possibly
anything will get done.

Media attention also helps.

The Church's record is appaling to date.
Cover-ups have been a part and parcel
of the way they've dealt with problems
in the past throughout the Church's history.

It is well past the time that a mere apology
is going to suffice. As Mr Foster said, an
apology is meaningless unless its backed up
by action.

The Church must do more.

Whether it will is another matter.

HI TO ALL THE FORGOTTEN AUSTRALIANS

hi to everyone out their ,

foxy

i watched the program on abc about what happend to the young girls and as far as im concerned the churches have continued denial for years as that of our state of new south wales ,

also abc had on late line cardial pell the night before where he him self had covered up rapes and abuse in the catholic church dating back to 2003 ,

we know that these are crimes that will never stop ,

but we also need the prime minister of australia mr kevin rudd to give the victims that were raped and abused in the states run institutions of australia which each state had control of to apologize to us victims that were raped and abused and made slaves for their own purpose .

we are real victims that the goverment of australia has continued to cover up and we will no longer be forgotten

if its good enough for the church to apologize its good enough for the prime minister to apolgize to us victims of the state run institutions of australia as we are real victims as well ,.

foxy, belly , and all other surporters i know you all would like to hear the same as well

how much longer before our goverment will really acknowledge us victims ,

kind regards huffnpuff a real victim still trying to survive

Dear Michael,

You must be a mind reader.

I sat here watching the Papal apologise
on TV - and my thoughts turned to you.

And here you are.

As you know, I've sent emails to the PM,
I've written letters to newspapers,
I've emailed the ABC.

Let's hope that the Pope's actions will
inspire our PM to do likewise.

My wish for you is to finally get closure and be
able to move on.

The Pope's apology is a step
in the right direction, hopefully with more
action to follow.

I can only pray that the PM will follow his
example.

All The Best Michael,

Unfortunately, an apology and "full legal admissions" are two totally different things. An apology is the easy part.

In my opinion, the Church will be VERY guarded about any specific admissions for the sole purpose of protecting it's wealth. To run the church in a modern society requires MASSIVE wealth. As in the past, I believe the church will continue to place a "first" priority on it's wealth. Victims will come second to that.

It's not right, it's not Christian (in the "true" sense of the word), and if a God exists as they believe, then they will eventually be judged.

The preservation of the Church's wealth is what this is all about. Why? Because the Church's hierarchy KNOWS an impoverished Church, in a modern world, will quickly crumble.

Dear Philips,

I don't think preserving their wealth
is a major concern. They've got enough
wealth to last several lifetimes, and
then some.
And it will continue to grow - thanks
to huge investments and legacies that
will accumulate. Cardinal Marcinkus,
former Pope's Banker, saw to that.

The Papal apology was not as you describe,
the "easy part." I imagine it was not an
easy decision for the Pope to make at all.
He would have received a great deal of
opposition from within the Church's hierarchy,
and its legal advisers.
But, it was a crucial one, if the Church
was to retain any credibility.

Coming from the Head of the Church, it also
is a step in the right direction.
As I said in another post, acknowledging
a problem, is the first step in fixing it.

We should not diminish the apology, on
the contrary, we should encourage that it
now initiates change within the Church.

I did not expect the apology to happen,
and the words the Pope used were strong ones.
They will go down in history.
No one can dispute that fact.

All we can hope is that the Pope's words will form
a base from which change will come within
the ranks of the Church.

The first step has been made.

I expected some type of apology. It's reached the stage where the Church had pretty much no option. I believe the apology is not 100% sincere. If it was, it would have come a very, very, very long time ago, and been often repeated in every country in the world many, many times.

The Church's wealth would most definitely be compromised if litigations were successfully launched and brought to fruition the world over. They can only be brought to full fruition if the Church willingly admits guilt, and as historically proven, the Church won't do that to the degree required in courts of law. There would be many, many thousands of such litigations and if fully successful the wealth of the Church would most definitely be reduced to a concerning degree.

The Church will fight tooth and nail to protect that wealth. It depends on that wealth. And they only too well know it!

At the end of the day, they know that God won't save them. To save themselves they have adopted certain "Earthly" legal procedures, where every "official" Church word and statement is carefully vetted from a legal perspective. They can't risk that "wealth".

Hopefully they will eventually be **FORCED**, via the legal systems throughout the world, to actually face up to their legal responsibilities

hi to all the forgotten australians ,and everyone else out their ,

thank you foxy for the reply ,

yesterday i placed a post in the daily telegrapgh

Readers' Comments
Pope sorry for church sex abuseArticle from: Font size: Decrease Increase Email article: Email Print article: Print
July 19, 2008 04:05pm
POPE Benedict XVI has apologised to people sexually abused by members of the clergy in Australia.

He raised the issue during a ceremony to consecrate the altar of St Mary's Cathedral in Sydney, where the Pope has been participating in World Youth Day (WYD) activities.

"Here I would like to pause to acknowledge the shame which we have all felt as a result of the sexual abuse of minors by some clergy and religious in this country,'' Pope Benedict said in his homily.
Read Full Story

how about prime minister rudd apologize to all of us victims that were raped and abused in the state run instituions of australia , its about time the whole of australia stop the cover up and clean the slate apologize then its done , if the prime minister won't do it for us victims whats the good of being prime minister , , the more they keep covering up the rapes and abuse the worse it is becoming , so stand up for australians and the victims mr rurdd , we never asked to be raped and abused we were children for christ sake , from a real victim micheal brown
Posted by: micheal brown of argenton 7:07pm July 19, 2008
Comment 17 of 3

also i shall post the one that got placed in the un herald

it would be nice if the prime minister stood up for us all

foxy you need to read a couple of things col rouge has said in the last few days , bit up setting , to us victims

click on my user name and read what i said to him

just thought id let all olo know i do stand up for wanting the truth be told and justice for us victims
regards huffnpuff

Philips,

I think your post is right on the money. All the way through human history, the Church has been closely intertwined with authorities and those with power. Is it any wonder that the laws have never been used against them? They have, after all, been party to influencing those who've written the laws. Until now, the Church has been all flow and no ebb. Give it the chance to change its behaviour certainly, but if it can't, the full force of human laws should be forced upon it as it has influenced the laws to come upon others. That would truly be justice in action.

hi to all the forgotten australians ,and everyone else out their on olo

just posting the other comment that was published in the herald sun
yesterday

Readers' CommentsActivist wants abuse compensationArticle from: Font size: Decrease Increase Email article: Email Print article: Print
July 19, 2008 02:33pm
CHILDREN'S rights activist Hetty Johnston wants compensation for people sexually abused by Catholic clergy following the Pope's apology to victims.

Earlier today, Pope Benedict XVI apologised during a ceremony to consecrate the altar of St Mary's Cathedral in Sydney as part of World Youth Day activities.

"Indeed I am deeply sorry for the pain and suffering the victims have endured and I assure them that, as their pastor, I too share in their suffering," Pope Benedict said in his homily.

Read full story

what a joke the pope has only apologized to the catholic victims of child abuse ,. yet the prime minister of australia should be apologizing to all the victims that were raped and abused in the states run institutions through out australia , and have the guts to addmitt the truth and stop the cover up of all the rapes and abuse that occurred in the states run institutions from the 30's , 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, . we ar5e real victims the states still continue to cover up and their senate inquiries prove our stories yet the goverment is still covering this up by not acting on and for the victims that were in these institutions where is our justice , where is our apology , we are still being raped by the goverment of australia , until they addmitt the truth then we can have some faith in our country Posted by: micheal brown of argenton 7:28pm July 19, 2008
Comment 6 of 7

so to all out their ,

their are still many other victims out here other than just the catholics

regards huffnpuff

we will no longer be forgotte

I think the scale and complexity of the problem of child sexual abuse, whether the crimes be committed via the Churches, State Institutions or other Authorities, means that true and complete reconciliation, understanding and restitution is a task so huge that it will probably never reach the stage of being complete. After all, how is it possible to "compensate" for a raped child? Nothing can compensate for that experience.........but that doesn't mean for one second that we as a society should not try!

Apologies, while important to the victims, are merely the first wavering steps towards "proper and full" recognition of past and present problems. The Institutions, Governments and Churches will probably remain suspicious of people claiming abuse and remain protective of their great wealth. Legal "force" is probably the only way, and unfortunately that can take many long decades of dedication from the victims and their supporters.

huffnpuff/Michael

I absolutely agree with you that it's now time for Prime Minister Rudd to apologise to all victims who were raped and abused in the state run instituions of Australia. It's long overdue.

PM Howard failed and used the excuse that it was the States and churches that were responsible. What a weak leader he was when it came to questions of morality. The kids who were raped were Australian children but Howard wanted no part in showing the lead in redressing the wrongs that were done to this nation's institutionalised children.

So if Rudd fails us you have to ask the question, What's the point of winning power if you fail to use that power to put right the evil things that were done to Australian children?

Keep up the pressure Michael. We need people like you to make the ignorant knowledgeable, the spineless courageous and the uncaring caring.

Good Evening Everyone,

Thanks for all your responses - to date.
They're all greatly appreciated and
very valued.

I came across an interesting article
in, The Age, Saturday, July 19, 2008.
A2 - Culture And Life section, p. 23.

It's a review of a book by
Paul Collins, called, "Believers: Does
Australian Catholicism have a Future?"
UNSW Press, $34.95.

As Barney Zwartz, The Age religious editor
tells us, the book, "Asks the hard questions that
the hierarchy will not confront and the young
are too inexperienced to know or articulate.
Collins is an excellent commentator, very
well informed and a meticulous and detailed
researcher. He writes as an insider, with a good
knowledge of how the Church works, but also with a
measure of detachment."

We're told that Collins, "Has long been a leading spokesman
of the more progressive group of Australian Catholics
but has been marginalised by traditionalists who have
regained control in Rome and Australia since Vatican II.
What will make this book hard to ignore are the facts
and figures and concrete examples."

"The Australian Church cannot assume it will survive. Its
numerical heyday was before Vatican II, which brought
considerable change, but the traditionalists have been
winding that back for decades and new generations are
increasingly disconnected from the Church.

The sexual abuse crisis had weakened trust, and the priest
shortage is already dire."

I intend to get hold of a copy of the book.

As the article points out, "Catholicism has proved
infinitely adaptable over two millennia, only finding
energy to change often when things seemed dire."

I'm hoping that this will occur if enough pressure
is brought on.

The media driven frenzy aimed at the Pope in regards to sexual abuse was incredibly hypocritical. Why don't the ABC/SBS demand that the NSW Premier apologize on behalf of the abusers in his Government. Why does not one of our prominent Aboriginal leaders say sorry on behalf of the seismic sexual abuse done by many of their elders. Why does not all the State school teachers unions say sorry on behalf of many of the teachers who have committed sexual abuse. Why does not the SBS/ABC insist on their own CEO saying sorry for the kiddy fiddlers in their own ranks.

I am no fan of the pope or Catholic church but the media driven hate and bias on this issue was incredibly unbalanced. Then again our gay friendly ABC/SBS has not been balanced for a long time. I do hope that next time the earth worshipers have their next violent gathering that the ABC/SBS insist that Bob Brown gives a personal apology to all those people who have been abused among their ranks.

Runner you have got to the crux of the problem. The media have a lot to answer for. Politicians won't lift a finger while the heat is on the Catholic Church alone.

George adduced an exception to the reporting rule which shows just how much relevant information the supposedly in depth coverage of Lateline missed thus resulting in Pell being accused of a cover up. Naturally the pretend cover up guaranteed prolonged exclusive focus on the Catholic Church thus keeping victims like Michael who didn't experience Catholic clerical abuse in the cold.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24040493-7583,00.html

If more reporters went to that much trouble to uncover the truth abuse in governmental institutions would be heavily in the news and Rudd would be apologizing very quickly.

mjpb,

The sad part is that so many of those who see themselves as intellectual on OLO seem to get much of their information from these pathetically inadequate national broadcasters. I suppose it confirms what they want to hear. Some like Foxy to her credit seem genuinely concerned about those who were abused. Her emotions obviously cloud her thinking but her intentions appear genuine. Others however seem to somehow want their own actions justified by misrepresenting others.

Dear Runner and Mjpb,

The media covers what's currently making news.
World Youth Day, the Pope's arrival, Pilgrims
from all over the world - all this placed the
media emphasis on the Catholic Church.

But without this attention - would there have
been a Papal apology?

I believe that its thanks to media pressure
and emphasis that it happened. And I'm grateful
that it did.

But, I'm hoping that it won't stop there, and that
the apology will initiate change within the church
when it comes to dealing with victims of sexual abuse.

As for victims within Government Institutions, as
Michael (huffnpuff) knows, I've emailed the PM,
written to newspapers, emailed the ABC, and done
what I could. If all of us were to continue putting
pressure on our elected officials, perhaps someone,
somewhere, will eventually take notice.

We can only try. But with perseverance -
we may just succeed.
As someone once said,
"Even the snails made it onto the ark."

Perseverance brings results.

I'm just sick of the current culture of symbolism. I really cant see any practical benefits of one guy publicly apologising for something he didn't do.

It seems these days any public figure must publicly apologise for any sins commited by any individual in their organisation. Even 'raising awareness' is really just a replacement for actually doing something practical.

I cant imagine any words of apology by some public figure I don't even know being any consolation if I was wronged.

Foxy,

There is more involved than newsworthiness. The media don't like the Catholic Church and they haven't been fair. Runner isn't Catholic but he noticed. Arjay and George noticed the Pell situation. The media dislike is due to the position on abortion etc. Pentecostals who share similar values are portrayed(normally incorrectly) as silly rednecks while Catholics clergy are portrayed (normally incorrectly) as paedophiles. Locally, Pell is seen as particularly unpalatable and threatening to media due to his environmental comments, his potent leadership, and his thoughtful intellectual image. They also haven't forgotten his refusal to give Eucharist to Rainbow Sash protestors.

"But without this attention - would there have been a Papal apology?"

Probably not. With 1.5 billion Catholics scattered all over the world and issues opposing Communism etc. on the agenda it would be entirely possible if he and his predecessor didn't know what crimes and misconduct priests got up to in their bedrooms but for the media attention. Back then the Bishops didn't seem keen to rush out and tell people. The fact of media attention has been a blessing that has been enormously helpful in making the issue prominant. I presume and always have that you are correct that media catalysed action. However typing this I wonder what would have happened if medical knowledge had changed in the 80s and societal attitudes had changed in relation to secrecy and the media had left the Church alone. Given issues of legal liability and rules relating to homosexuality and paedophilia there were other potential incentives for action. It wouldn't be worth the risk running this "control group" but without it we will never know for sure.

"As for victims within Government Institutions, as Michael (huffnpuff) knows, I've emailed the PM,written to newspapers, emailed the ABC, and done what I could. If all of us were to continue putting
pressure on our elected officials, perhaps someone,somewhere, will eventually take notice."

Unless the media take the ball I suspect that it won't work but it is a wonderful thing you are doing making the effort.

Dear Usual Suspect,

That's the point isn't it?
You haven't been wronged, so
of course it doesn't mean much to you.

However, to the victims, an apology
means an acknowledgement that a wrong
was committed. And its the first step
in healing and closure.

Also coming from the Holy Father, the
Head of their Church, means a great deal.

It's not something that will be taken
lightly by the victims.

And it's to the Pope's credit that he not
only made the Papal apology, but that he
met privately with several groups, and victims,
of sexual abuse this morning, prior to
leaving Australia.

It was the right thing to do.

Foxy,

I have been wronged. But an apology from someone other than the wrong doer would be meaningless to me.

How far can you extrapolate this concept of symbolic apoogies by the head of an organisation. Where is the public apology from the leader of the scouts? The education minister?

'And it's to the Pope's credit that he not
only made the Papal apology, but that he
met privately with several groups, and victims,
of sexual abuse this morning, prior to
leaving Australia.
'

Not much credit from me. Words are cheap, and it's actually the easier path to placate people like this and give in to media run campaigns for symbolism.

Good on him for meeting the people privately, obviously they wanted something from him, perhaps not an apology but some spiritual guidance. Being Pope and all he should be ready to help people in need wherever possible.

The Pope met others, but not this family or what's left of it. I think this was a political issue and that the parents were not invited just shows you how corrupted the institution is. It's all about power, money and political influence in Australia.

Thanks to all of you for your inputs.

They are appreciated.

Basically, after reading all of your comments
I'm beginning to come to the conclusion
that cases of sexual abuse within the Church
should be handled by the courts, not by
the Church. It's like letting the
Mafia deal with their own criminals.

Anyway, I'm grateful for all your arguments.
As I've said in the past, that's one of the
reasons why I like this Forum. You get a
variety of opinions and much food for thought.

To you, Dear Usual Suspect, I'm sorry but I
didn't know you were wronged. And I can understand
your feelings.

Tonight, Monday, 21st July 2008, at 9.35pm, Andrew
Denton speaks with Father Des Reid, who according to
TV Week, "has witnessed the best and worst of humanity."

Should be interesting.

All The Best,