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The Forum > General Discussion > Populate of perish

Populate of perish

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Cardinal George Pell has been in the news again, claiming that
the West needs to "populate or perish".

He seems concerned by the declining birthrates in the West.

Given that world population keeps increasing by around 80 million
a year, we have gone from 1.5 billion to 6.5 billion in 100 years,
based on cheap oil, what is his problem?

Clearly the world can't handle an ever increasing human population,
its not sustainable. We are already struggling with resources and
denying other species a spot on this planet.

So what is George's real problem? He does mention the West,
forgetting the massive growth in total human population.

Is George concerned at the drop in numbers of the white tribe?
Or is George concerned that the Muslims might outbreed the
Catholics, so his church will suffer?

Would it really matter if the potpourri of human genetics means
that in some hundreds of years, humans are mostly light tan in colour?

Can any of his followers please explain?
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 15 July 2008 3:11:28 PM
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I'm not one of Pells followers and I don't care if we are all light tan in colour a hundred years from now.

What does concern me is that freedom and democracy continue to grow and flourish. Unfortunately, most of the population growth globally is from regions/countries which have no democratic tradition.

If it were not for the ridiculous policy of multiculturalism, we could assimilate these people into our communities and feel comfortable knowing that democracy and freedom are safe. But under multiculturalism, as we take on our share of the worlds overpopulation through migration etc, we also have to accept their worldviews as being as legitimate as ours or any other is, for organising this country.

In France at the moment they are waking up to the dangers that multiculturalism poses to their society. For them it is too late however, and the changes they are making will provoke significant community unrest. Ie more ramapging "youths".

So for me it is simple, if we want to preserve our values and our way of life, (most australians do) we need to at least maintain our population. At current birthrates the Australian born population will begin to decline within 20 years. Many European countries have populations which are already in decline.

Besides the economic problems of an aging society there are the social and cultural aspects which we will have no control over.

So, Coffee coloured but democratic and free, thats fine.
but Coffee coloured and oppressed by religious or political dictators, no thanks.
Posted by Paul.L, Wednesday, 16 July 2008 11:07:05 AM
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The all-consuming RC Empire just wants more converts, not for Jesus so much, as for the vast endtimes apostate church Mystery Babylon.

Scatter the people, train them and equip them and we do very well against any incursion from the north.
Posted by Gibo, Wednesday, 16 July 2008 12:04:05 PM
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Gibo,
I sure hope it's not necessary to be like you to be a true Christian.
Imagine spending eternity in a place where everybody is an intolerant bigot like yourself.

Many people have found Christ through the Roman Catholic Church. I might not be in agreement with all their teachings, but what is more important: The denomination in which a person comes to know Christ or the fact they have come to know Christ?
Posted by Steel Mann, Wednesday, 16 July 2008 12:31:04 PM
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I agree that George Pell definitely
wants there to be a population growth.

Afterall, he's against abortion, birth-control,
and supports the "normal" family of mother, father
and children. Traditions that to him,
have made his religion
what it is.

Encouraging a population growth is the way
he sees to ensure
the continued defense of his
traditional Catholic values,
and the marketing of his "one true God."
While he continues to oppose homosexuality,
stem cell legislation, the ordination of
women priests, and accountability of his
fellow clergy for sexual abuse.

"I've no option other than to preach
the gospel the way I have received it
and try to live it..."

The rest of us wait in hope for Rome to change
its, and Pell's, legalistic ways.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 16 July 2008 1:42:04 PM
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Oops, the adminstrators must be having a bad hair day, that's not
how I spelt the title.

*The rest of us wait in hope for Rome to change*

Foxy, you are not the only one saying that. IMHO they have
people power against them and only a small % of Catholics
in the first world, take the Vatican stance on family planning,
in any way seriously. Sadly, in the third world, many women
don't have that choice and Rome still has a huge influence.

Promoting ever more babies, given our global situation,
seems incredibly irresponsible to me.

http://www.prolife.org.ph/page/population_control

By what I have been able to gather, the pope who only lasted
a month and then died mysteriously, was about to free up
Catholic dogma, but was strongly opposed by the conservatives,
within the political infighting going on in the Vatican.

After he fell off the papal perch, the conservatives gained hold
and have been there ever since. As they keep appointing new
conservative cardinals who vote, nothing is about to change soon.

No wonder that Catholic Church numbers in the West have dropped
so dramatically. IMHO they are simply out of touch with the
majority of their flock.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 16 July 2008 3:00:56 PM
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Maybe it was a Freudian slip: "Popeulate" - I love it!

Actually, Yabby's absolutely correct. The last thing the world needs is more people.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 16 July 2008 3:30:56 PM
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Yabby,
Could you please provide an exact quote where Cardinal Pell claims that the West needs to "populate or perish". The closest I could get was

>> "There is a crisis in the Western world," said Dr Pell, the head of the Catholic church in Australia."No Western country is producing enough babies to keep the population stable." << (http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24016420-5016672,00.html).

This is just a statement of an undeniable fact. Nevertheless, whatever his reasons for mentioning this aging population problem, (that now apparently can be remedied, if at all, only by an increased immigration from non-Western countries) I do not think complaining about the decreasing Western proportion of the world population was appropriate at a gathering where a large part of participants - perhaps the majority of non-Australians - came from non-Western countries.
Posted by George, Thursday, 17 July 2008 10:09:05 AM
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Dear George,

If you were to google, "Populate or Perish: Pell,"
you'd find quite a few websites that confirm
the Cardinal's quote.

However, it also appeared in, The Sydney Morning Herald,
July 14, 2008, article by Linda Morris.

Cheers.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 17 July 2008 10:49:52 AM
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You've got a Catholic, telling a Catholic audience, that there aren't enough babies. It's pretty obvious he's saying Catholics aren't being sufficiently prolific breeders. Prolific in comparison to who else is open to interpretation, but the message to his Caffolic Yoof audience is fairly blunt I would have thought.

Cast off ye evil condoms and eschew ye pharmaceutical and surgical birth controls.

Go forth, multiply, and donate. Cash, cheques and all credit cards accepted.
Posted by chainsmoker, Thursday, 17 July 2008 1:23:24 PM
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The statement "Populate or Perish!" is Pell`s polite way of telling us to all to "get knotted!".....the offeratory plates must be turning up rather depleted, so it is time for all good Catholics to "have three for Pell and four for the country!"

The Churches of all denominations in the western world should be closely examining the reasons for the ever increasing drift away from modern religous groups, which have been wracked with money-grabbing, deceit, hypocrisy, paedaphilia and criminal cover-ups!

We have to suffer enough of that sort of painful treatment from Governments, over whose participatory performance we have no choice of avoiding!

The current Papal street-sweeping exercise in Sydney is doing nothing to win over the hearts and the minds of the disillusioned non-believer masses who see it simply as another shameful waste of taxpayers money, that could be put to better use by applying it to the homeless and the pending homeless!
Posted by Cuphandle, Thursday, 17 July 2008 4:24:14 PM
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Dear Foxy,
Thank you for your info. The googling you suggested, including Linda Morris' article, confirmed only Pell's statement of fact, that I already quoted.

In 2003 it was one thing to state that Saddam Hussein was a tyrant and oppressor of his people, and another thing to call for an invasion that followed, though some people might interpret - either approvingly or disapprovingly - these statements of fact about Saddam as a support, or even call, for the invasion.

As said above, I think it was a wrong occasion for Pell to make such a statement, but as I read it, it is still just a statement of fact, lamenting about the status quo.

chainsmoker, Cuphandle,
Thank you for your colourful interpretation of the Cardinal's words, revealing your own emotional bias (as justified as it might be) rather than what he actually said.
Posted by George, Thursday, 17 July 2008 5:24:41 PM
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George, on the day in question, there were a number of press reports
claiming that is what he did say. I was not there to hear every
word of what he said. Clearly that is how the press understood it.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/07/14/1215887540778.html

I have seen no press reports that he disagrees with what the press
claimed he said, have you?
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 17 July 2008 6:12:54 PM
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Well I think that it is a worry. We live in a democracy so majority rules. Muslims have lots and lots of children, if the Catholics and other religions do not also have lots and lots of children we will be the minority and we will be ruled.
Posted by Jolanda, Thursday, 17 July 2008 7:10:20 PM
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Yabby,
>> I have seen no press reports that he disagrees with what the press claimed he said, have you? <<
No, but as mentioned before, I could not find a press report claiming that Pell used the expression "populate or perish", or any other form of similarly explicit exhortation. I could find the phrase "populate or perish" only as part of a headline, not as a direct quote.

A politician X could make a statement about a politician Y which might look reasonable to interpret as "Politician Y is a fool". However, this interpretation should not be reported as if he/she actually said it, making conclusions from it how rude politician X was. On the other hand, biased reporting is not restricted to only where the Catholic Church is involved. Cardinal Pell is certainly well aware of that, and would probably not react unless the matter had legal implications, which this one obviously does not have. Nevertheless, one should be permitted to point out the difference between a quote and its interpretation. This is all I wanted to say.
Posted by George, Thursday, 17 July 2008 7:15:54 PM
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Yabby is absolutely correct.

Population is the single cause which promotes

Global Warming (if you believe it exists)

UnSustainable resource use (something that I do believe is happening)

Environmental degradation across the planet from Acid rain to Acid oceans, decimation of fish stocks, deforestation and soil erosion etc etc. things which are clearly visible and indesputible.

Now the population of the world is around 6 billion +

If the population of the world were one tenth that amount would the gene-pool, the thing which the successive breeding of the species depends on, be adversely effected?

NO

So why the quest for numbers?

More of the faithful to give tribute to the Papists?

The sooner people realise the real danger to their childrens future and welfare is the number of other peoples children they are competing with, the sooner will people come to the party and give away the stupidity of the Pope.

About 30 years ago, before I had children, I lived in UK.

UK, 60 million people in half the size of Victoria (or whatever).

I migrated not solely for myself but for the future of the children I had then still to father and one day my grandchildren, so they could be part of a continent with only 20 million or so, folk on it.

Competition of numbers matters. Look at the quality of life and expectations of people in UK and Europe. All that history might look nice but they buy it at the price of the fundamental expectations of life qualities which they can aspire to and which are a lot less than what we take for granted in Australia.
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 17 July 2008 7:31:33 PM
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George, the thing is, the headline clearly states that George
Pell "says" etc.

Now either he did or did not say it, I can only go by somebody
who seems to have been there, to tell me what he said.

Perhaps he only implied it, then the journalists got it wrong.
Fair enough, that is possible, journalists don't report that
accuractely and so far nobody has produced a transcript of
what he actually said, whole speech, word for word.

On the other hand, organisations associated with the Vatican
spend alot of time and lobbying effort encouraging people to
have larger families. The dogma of the Church and the fact
that it runs many hospitals, also means that many third worlders
can't have the snip or similar, its against church doctrine.
Condoms etc are still actively campaigned against.

So Pell, even if he only implied it and did not actually say it,
could well believe the dogma of his church, given that
he is a cardinal in it.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 17 July 2008 10:42:39 PM
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Pell said;

"No Western country is producing enough babies to keep the population stable."

George said;

“This is just a statement of an undeniable fact.”

My goodness George! How terribly wrong you are.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1961#40772
Posted by Ludwig, Friday, 18 July 2008 6:56:10 AM
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Ludwig,
>>‘and go out and have lots of babies because at the moment you er we er are not keeping the population up to a stable level’<<

This indeed would be a quote of an exhortation (not of just a statement of fact). However, the only source you provide, showing that these were EXACTLY Pell's words, is yourself.
Posted by George, Friday, 18 July 2008 7:50:08 AM
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Here Here, Col ,
No Politicians bring up the obvious solution of a lower birth rate to lower the Green house Effect - it is now becoming obvious why .

Come to think of it, why didn't professor Ross Garnaut ??

Meanwhile, the Muslims , Jews and Catholics are all trying to outbreed each other in the race of religions - How stupid is that !

Isn't it about time the leading world religions acted more responsibly ?
Posted by kartiya jim, Friday, 18 July 2008 10:19:05 AM
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“However, the only source you provide, showing that these were EXACTLY Pell's words, is yourself.”

They probably aren’t his exact words George. I specifically said; “I was utterly appalled last night to hear Pell say words to the effect:

‘and go out and have lots of babies because at the moment you er we er are not keeping the population up to a stable level’ .“

It was not just a statement of fact, or a statement of belief or a gross error of fact. He most definitely exhorted people towards a certain line of action.

Whatever way you look at it, Pell is just so terribly out of order with his comments that we in any way need to increase our birthrate, either in Australia or globally. He needs to be condemned for this sort of totally uninformed rhetoric.
Posted by Ludwig, Friday, 18 July 2008 1:04:03 PM
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Oh man, now I have to have another child. I already had one for me, one for my partner and one for Peter Costello. Now I have to have one for George Pell.

I wish I had my own free will, so I could choose how many offspring I had. Hang on...
Posted by Usual Suspect, Friday, 18 July 2008 2:43:16 PM
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US "I wish I had my own free will, so I could choose how many offspring I had. Hang on..."

I exercised my free will and took the option after having two.

A vasectomy I mean, cheap, effective.

Now, as I fire only blanks, does that make me a heretic (even if I never laugh during and say I don't enjoy it)?

or perhaps I am just more of a heretic than I was when still firing live rounds? :-)
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 18 July 2008 3:28:12 PM
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Ludwig,
>> Whatever way you look at it, Pell is just so terribly out of order with his comments that we in any way need to increase our birthrate, either in Australia or globally. He needs to be condemned for this sort of totally uninformed rhetoric. <<

You might or might not be right about what you think he meant and Pell might or might not be right about how to solve West's problems, but that was not my point. As stated above, I only wanted to point out the difference between a quote and its interpretation.

However, I have to admit, I found an official report that comes close enough to your interpretation (British Catholic weekly The Tablet, 19.7.) "Cardinal Pell ... at a news conference on Monday ... urged Australia and other Western countries to increase the size of their families". Note: he urges "Western countries" in a press conference, which is not exactly an exhortation to the young Catholic participants of WYD08, where the majority of non-Australians come from non-Western countries.

[By the way, for instance German politicians (and I presume other European as well) are very concerned about the aging population in their country, and have recently budgeted arrangements (more creches, increased family allowances) to encourage families to have children, knowing that the solution to the demographic (hence economic) crisis in Western countries lies neither in an increased birthrate nor in immigration but probably in a reasonable combination of both (plus reduced consumption of energy etc.). So Pell (or the German Government for that matter) might be "terribly out of order", I do not know. But I do know that some contributors here have very simple ideas about how to solve world's problems. There certainly exist naive interpretations of the Catholic position both by overly zealous Catholics and overly zealous anti-Catholics.]
Posted by George, Friday, 18 July 2008 5:32:35 PM
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Populate or perish.
I noticed the first comment on the post asked where did the info come from that gay relationships make for unhealthy children.
I gather the figures come from within the catholic churchs own figures and failures at managing children within "single" (married to the church) relationships.
When it comes down to it, the whole thing is hypocracy, the church teaches celibacy, forbids marriage and so on yet demand that those not in that echelon marry, not use contraception and so on.
It is like the pope saying we are squandering the resources, Ummm...
Is not the Vatican city and its world of churches not the largest consumers and squanderers in the history of the planet, both financially and in terms of human lives in building its empire. I'll take a dozen colums and one fraction of the vatican courtyard to build my little palace, arent we all entitled to live in the same splendour as the papal state.
Posted by wizen, Friday, 18 July 2008 11:35:43 PM
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"Populate or perish"
Is it bad?
What do you expect from religious or national leaders to say when all the evidents show that Cristian or western countries are going to have big problems if they do not increase the births?
This is a huge problem for most European countries.
It is easy to say all religious and all civilizations are equal, we say it because we try to improve the relations between people from different religious, races or civilizations or in worst cases because we try to avoid conflicts.
I believe that there is a huge gap between European and other civilizations, between Christianity and other religious.
I am atheist, there is a huge number of atheists in Cristian world BUT
I KNOW THAT I AM ATHEIST NOT BECAUSE THE CRISTIAN RELIGIOUS IS WORST FROM THE OTHERS RELIGIOUS BUT BECAUSE IT GAVE ME THE CHANCE, THE FREEDOM TO LEARN ABOUT RELIGIOUS AND TO EXPRESS FREELY MY ATHEISTIC IDEAS.
Can any one tell me what could happen to me if I was in a non European Country (USA, Australia are mostly European migrants=European civilization) and if I said publicly that I am atheist? probably death penalty!
Can any one tell me what could happen to me if I was in a non European Country (USA, Australia are mostly European migrants=European civilization)and I claim my basic rights? probably life prison!
European civilization, Western civilization, OUR CIVILIZATION is on the top and with huge distance from all the other civilizations.
I agree with Cardinal Pell's "Populate or perish" and to be honest this is not Cardinal Pell's but belongs to most European political or religious leaders, left or right, religious or atheists.
It is seemed there are some people who enjoy the benefits and goodies from our civilization but are not ready to protect it.
YES POPULATE OR PERISH!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Sunday, 20 July 2008 8:22:50 PM
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“I agree with Cardinal Pell's ‘Populate or perish’…”

Antonious, your reason for agreeing is that you think Australia and European countries need to increase their populations in order to keep up with the rapid increase in Muslim and/or third-world countries, yes? (I’m guessing a bit here, so if you could clarify this, it would be appreciated)

There may be an argument in there for some European countries, but certainly not for Australia, which has rapid population growth that is due about 40% to births and 60% to immigration or something like that.

Pell was exhorting us to have more babies in order to keep up the birthrate needed for a stable population. Well, even if we had net zero immigration, Australia’s population would still be growing at a considerable rate due to births alone. So he is entirely wrong in what he is espousing.

He seems to be interested in us achieving a stable population, which is excellent, if it is true. So if he just got his facts straight, he might see fit to retract his exhortation to increase breeding!?

Now this would be very interesting to find out about. My bet is that he’d continue to push for more babies, with the espousal of some other motive.
Posted by Ludwig, Sunday, 20 July 2008 8:56:16 PM
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ASymeonakis:
Your statement was a load of "claptrap"! This is whole problem with the world today, we are all being urged to procreate for what valid reason,....the world is already overpopulated and as the hard cold facts show us we are rapidly diminishing our resources at an ever increasing rate!

Anybody with half an ounce of brain should be questioning why we are being exhorted to procreate, regardless of who is doing the exhorting!
The religious nuts out there cannot see the wood for the trees, being blinded by the mentally implanted light of the promised paradise!

The real reasom for "production/perish" theory is simply a lie of convenience, .....an exhortation to ensure a continuance of supply of economic and physical cannon-fodder to sate the greed of the money-makers of the world who have for many generations sucked the financial blood from their unwary brainwashed victims!

Let each man decide the size of his own family! Let each man save and pay for the necessities of life, instead of falling prey to the jackal money-lenders! Let us not be swayed by the greed of the religious "cults" who themselves fatten off the public purse!

Let every man exercise his own right to think logically for himself thus ultimately making his own decision in the direction in life that he takes!
Posted by Cuphandle, Monday, 21 July 2008 8:33:54 AM
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Ludwig

I am internationalist but I do not ignore the individuals or nations. As I am interested for Aborigine's civilization or for freedom of expression in the same way I am interested for European civilization and religions.

For me European civilization is on the top of human civilizations ever exist and democracy is the best tool to promote the social or global problems. I do not say it is very good, I am left because I want its improvement but comparing with other civilizations it is the best.
I am worried from the fast increase of people from other civilizations AND I DO NOT INDENT TO ABANDON EUROPEAN VALUES, I DO NOT INDENT TO ABANDON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND HUMAN RIGHTS.

I CAN NOT FIND ANY SOLUTION FROM THIS THREAT IN A DEMOCRATIC ENVIRONMENT EXCEPT FROM "Populate of perish"
We try to keep the conflict between different civilizations or religious in the lowest possible level BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY DO NOT EXIST.
Some times it is not bad to go few steps backward to protect forgotten basic values.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Monday, 21 July 2008 9:49:03 AM
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Antonios, if you think about it long enough, you will one day realise
that the title should rather be "Populate and perish".

Simply creating ever more humans on a given space, means that they
will simply fight over scarcer and scarcer resources. They tried
it in Rwanda and landed up with genocide.

Fact is that if Catholics and Muslims both try to outbreed each
other, they will eventually both snuff it, but realise it when its
a little too late, as its not sustainable. I guess the religious
will then call it their judgement day, but its basic biology.
Without biodiversity, you won't have a humanity and the planet
will simply spin with little but cockroaches, ants and similar
species on board. Nobody will be around to care either.

Don't be too afraid of the Muslim threat and I will explain why.
Your biggest hope is in fact that technology called the internet
and its changing the world quite quickly, due to the speed of change
of information. From Iran to Saudi Arabia, the young are tuning
in and switching on and informing themselves about the world.

They are calling for change and for modernisation. People power
will eventually bring that about, its a question of time. Yes,
right now some old conservative farts rule these places and impose
their will. The same was the case when the Catholic Church ruled
what is now the West. Change came, it came slowly, it had to
be fought for, but it came and happened. The same will happen in
these places, only faster, due to the speed of information.

All the surveys that I've ever seen, seem to show that only
a small % of the community are deeply religious. Even in Iran,
it was only something like 30%, that even bothered to attend a
mosque. In Saudi Arabia they need the religious police to force
people to attend. Underlying those strict Govt rulers are everyday
people, who are not as fanatical as the few who hold power.

When some of these old farts die, change will happen, as it always
does.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 21 July 2008 6:37:25 PM
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1. resources on planet.

If in the past the resources from our planet was for few million people today is for 6-7 billions and in the future for much more.
If we have problems today this is not because our planet do not have enough resources but because the companies, the big corporations are not interested for the human needs but ONLY HOW TO MAXIMIZE THEIR PROFITS.
If we have petrol problems today this is not because there are not other resources to solve the energy problems but because the other resources are not so profitable to them.
Do not worry for the resources but for the multinational companies which ignore our needs.

2. I did not write for any specific religious and I DO NOT MEAN ONLY MUSLIMS AND I DID NOT WRITE ONLY FOR RELIGIOUS BUT FOR CIVILIZATIONS, FOR DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS. European civilization started its training with democracy about 2500 before, we can not expect people to change ideas and values from one day to an other.

3. The new technologies are good but controlled from a small number of corporations. Rupert Murdoch controls in high degree the mass media, they create the public opinion, our freedom is very limited even on the internet.
You know what Google and Yahoo did to enter to Chinese market, you know what Murdoch did to BBC to enter to Chinese market, you know how many billion dollars Saudi Monarchy etc have invested in west multinational companies including the news corporation (Murdoch) The new technologies gave us hopes but controlled from the big corporations!

IN REALLY LAST YEARS NOT ONLY THE OTHER CIVILIZATIONS HAVE NOT IMPROVED BUT EVEN OUR CIVILIZATION, OUR DEMOCRACY HAVE STARTED TO HAVE MANY PROBLEMS. THE HUGE POWER OF CORPORATIONS OF CAUSE THE NEW TECHNOLOGIES IS NOT A GOOD SIGN NOT ONLY FOR THE OTHER CIVILIZATIONS BUT EVEN FOR OUR CIVILIZATION.

We have problems, our democracy is at risk from corporations and people from other civilizations in our countries with so many births and so foreign to our values, make our problems even bigger.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid
Posted by ASymeonakis, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 1:23:37 AM
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Antonios, you misunderstand market economics and our system, if you
think that large corporations exist for your benefit. Corporations
exist to take calculated risks and make a profit. They are not
a charity and nor should they be.

Old Rupert actually lost alot of money in China. Why should anyone
be concerned about him? He is nearly 80, with a young wife to wear
him out. He's going to fall off the proverbial perch one of these
days.

As to resources, do your homework. Global fisheries are not sustainable,
and modern food production has relied largely on cheap oil to
produce cheap food. Make it expensive, as is happening now, as
oil is much more expensive and harder to find, so food will become
far more expensive to produce.

The thing is, all we are basically doing right now is stealing
a bit more land from other species, as we keep multiplying in
numbers, from 1.5 billion one hundred years ago, heading towards
10 billion or so in 50 years. Its just not sustainable.

Go to some large cities like Paris, where people surround the city
in megatowers of concrete, like rats in cages, the human zoo, as
Desmond Morris so aptly described it. No wonder its not working.

Outbreeding each other will solve nothing, just create ever more
problems. Modern warfare is about technology, not the amount
of warriors.

Our demoocracy is certainly not at risk for coroporations, for
they are doing what they are intended to do. Our humanity is
at risk from ever more people living unsustainably
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 4:21:05 PM
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Yabby ,

Spot on with those points except about Rupert's young wife "wearing him out" .

As I understand it the latest research says that plenty of sex and fun in older age actually extends our lives .

Nothing wrong with that is there?
Posted by kartiya jim, Tuesday, 22 July 2008 9:48:42 PM
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Yabby
"Corporations exist to ... make a profit"
Corporates are out of control and many times their activities creates big problems to human beings. The governments must put some rules to corporations before they capture totally our democracy or create even bigger problems to our world.
Without the lies from corporations, which control the mass media, especially Murdoch's media in USA, we could avoid the war in Iraq.
You make a mistake if you think in the name of the profits and because they take some risks they can destroy our environment, they can violate human rights, they can buy politicians, pay mercenaries for cups, create banana's democracies, put at risk people's health, control the public opinion, etc.
I remind you what Thomas Jefferson, the founder from Democratic Party in USA said for corporations.
"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed
corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a
trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." Thomas Jefferson, 1812
"market economics" does not mean the corporations are not responsible for their acts or that they can ignore people's basic needs, interests or values. I am not neo conservative and I expect from the governments to put some basic rules to corporations.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid
Posted by ASymeonakis, Wednesday, 23 July 2008 1:52:42 AM
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Yabby
"They (corporations)are not a charity"
I did not asked to convert the corporations to charity but for some kind of responsibilities from them.
If I lie and it creates a problem then may be I pass my life in prison.
If one or few corporations, which controls the mass media, lies repeatedly and caused one million Iraqi lives, three trillion dollars to American taxpayers, 100.000 American wounds, etc then there is no problem! The corporations took the "risk" and make money!
If I cause a health problem to a person may be I passed my life in prison but if the Cigarette Corporations sent the half population from our planet to hospitals and the other half to work for the victims from the cigarettes then no problem. Cigarette Corporations took the risks and make money!
If the oil or chemical industries destroy our environment no problem!
These Corporations took the risks and make money!
Are joking Yabby? They put at risk our lives, our jobs, our future, our planet and there are no limits and controls on their activities. There is no accountability for their acts.
Can you tell me what will happen to a politician or political party if try to put some rules to mass media corporations? The politician or political party will be disappeared!
THE TRUTH IS THAT OUR GOVERNMENTS ARE APPOINTED INDIRECTLY FROM THE MASS MEDIA CORPORATIONS, WHICH CONTROL AND CREATE THE PUBLIC OPINION.
ALREADY OUR DEMOCRACY IS CAPTURED FROM THE CORPORATIONS. ONLY THE SEMENS AND ONLY IN GREECE GAVE LAST 12 YEARS ABOUT 100 MILLION EURO, MAINLY TO TWO MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Wednesday, 23 July 2008 9:14:06 AM
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*plenty of sex and fun in older age actually extends our lives .*

Jim, I'm sure that old Rupert will die with a smile on his face :)

Antonios, I don't think that he controls everything in news, as
you claim. He simply knows how to sell to the true believers,
whatever they believe in. From the page 3 girls, to religious
fundamentalists, to the US rednecks, he knows how to push emotional
buttons and it sells.

At the end of the day, it was the US public that voted for
Bush-Chaney-Rove, as little old ladies believed in the Osama
under the bed story. I don't blame the press. I think that
there are some very smart Americans, but huge numbers of rather
stupid ones too.

Of course corporations should not pollute etc. They should abide
by the laws of the land, but its up to politicians to make those
laws.

If people land up voting for idiots like Bush and Chaney, you will
get exactly what you now have in the US, a disaster. Like they
say, people get the politicians that they deserve. Sadly it
seems that people need pain to learn.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 23 July 2008 9:50:04 AM
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I detect a note of hysterical rhetoric starting to occur in this thread!......a process that seems to occur in most of the threads..... eventually!

The subject was "Populate or Perish" ....the inference or actual statement by Pell insinuating that we are not procreating enough to satisfy the Catholic Church and it`s doctrine!

To populate this planet any further and deliberately, is tantamount to committing self-inflicted genocide or in more simple terminology ...suicide!

It is time to inject a touch of reality by recognising that all forms of religious organizations are in some shape or form simply fanatically engendered "cults" employing the cold cunning methodology of creating fear of retribution from the worshipped deity (idol or spirit) by the leaders of these "cults" who themselves are purveyors of the inevitable doom and retribution, in the event that members of their flock should stray from their vision of the proclaimed "straight and narrow"!

These "cult" leaders espouse self-proclaimed extreme worldly values and all feed from the purses of their brain-washed followers! It is understandable then that these same leaders advise, encourage and exhort their followers to go out and procreate, thus providing a never ending supply of "victims" for their continuance and sustainability!

Let every man think for himself.....or perish in the artificially created flames of retribution!
Posted by Cuphandle, Wednesday, 23 July 2008 10:55:01 AM
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