"A BBC investigation estimates that around $23bn (£11.75bn) may have been lost, stolen or just not properly accounted for in Iraq.

For the first time, the extent to which some private contractors have profited from the conflict and rebuilding has been researched by the BBC's Panorama using US and Iraqi government sources. "

"Henry Waxman who chairs the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform said: "The money that's gone into waste, fraud and abuse under these contracts is just so outrageous, its egregious.

"It may well turn out to be the largest war profiteering in history." "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7444083.stm
-=-==-

The complicity of the Democratic Congress has to be noted, as does the role of the allied nations such as Australia to this date.

I think the private feud Bush and Cheney had with Saddam Hussein was merely the icing for them.

Even since before 2004 were reports of the windfall private enterprise had because of the war. http://www.google.com.au/search?q=war+profiteering+2004

But the rhetoric, particularly here in Australia remained the same under a pretentious Howard and with the aid of the private media http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF9HpuZm6-g . Now Rudd has made a similar mistake in believing the hype and propaganda about Afghanistan. And sadly our troops are subjected to propaganda against their will about their roles in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Welll Steel.. this is most 'encouraging'....

BUSH 'bad'
Cheney 'bad'
DEMOCRATIC congress.. 'bad'
Howard.. 'bad'
RUDD.. also (yes.. believe it or not) 'BAD'....
Your allacation of blame seems to be remarkably Biblical "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23

BUT brother STEEL.. is there anyone GOOD out there? to whom we may call to fix all this mess.. AAH.. I know..its..

"JOHN PILGER"... aka 'The socialist prophet/messiah'

I have my reservations Steely.. the Bible says

<<"Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one">>

but THIS: from 'the enlightened one' (That's Steel :)

"Now Rudd has made a similar mistake in believing the hype and propaganda about Afghanistan."

Naturally, Rudd only makes decisions based on 'Media Hype' and 'propoganda' After all..he would NEVER make desicions based on the best intelligence directly from the various fields of operation provided by a host of professionals, that crosses his desk each day or however often they have a briefing..nope.. its all because of 'MEDIA HYPE'... that he has gullibly believed.

But.. STEEL...aah..now HE has the real truth..right?

SO.. dear Steel.. and your answer is? (and after all that negativity..you BETTER have one mate !)

I can't wait for this :)

Dear Steel,

Kevin Rudd is keeping his election promise concerning our troop withdrawal from Iraq. That part of our involvement is over.

Afghanistan is a different scenario. We're there because its a UN sanctioned exercise - which we're obligated to support.

If you're really interested in knowing the full extent of how privately successful the war profiteers were in Iraq - read,
John Pilger's, "The New Rulers of The World." It will make your hair stand on end.

Foxy,

John Pilger himself makes my "hair stand on end".

Is Australia really obliged to be in Afghanistan by dint of being a member of the UN?

Are all other member countries there, too?

Foxy,

I for one have read Pilger's book and you're right about the information it contains, especially regarding what really happened after Desert Storm that somehow didn't make the usual popular media.

Unfortunately, most comments you will get here will have nothing all all to do with the subject matter itself, but just a tendency to shoot the messenger.

The real "Media Hype" at work in our society is to blindly accept the populist pre-manufactured daily swill that gets dished out to influence public opinion in support of other agendas and make people feel that they have been properly informed. The same people who are telling you exactly what's happening on the other side of the world are also telling you how dangerous everyday household objects are and all the wonderful new ways to lose weight.

The truth behind all politics is not to inform but to maintain ignorance and to find ways of making it work for them and fear and greed are the best motivators of all.

Howard's legacy left for Rudd makes it politically impossible to make a moral judgement alone, without paying a high political price, no matter what he does.

Information about obscene Contractor profits is well known, just not widely reported.

BOAZ>"he would NEVER make desicions based on the best intelligence directly from the various fields of operation provided by a host of professionals"

And whom do you think these people based their intelligence on? The USA and the UK. The lies were merely ferried across to Australia where they were likely skimmed over in awe or deference and then handed to the government of the day. For an example of ASIO's incompetence in this area, it was apparently supplied with information about two terrorists in 2000 who between them later participated in the Bali and September 11 attacks, information which they ignored (according to J.Roche who turned himself in years later). Who knows...perhaps Australia deliberately ignored the intelligence to participate in this war because the USA has much more influence over Australia's fortune and interests than we citizens could imagine.

Secondly it's not all that hard to pay attention to the news (esp. that suppressed or ignored by the mainstream news).I have read various news reports various sources for a long time and they paint a much more realistic picture. I would expect leaders to have that kind of information awareness.

Foxy>"Afghanistan is a different scenario. We're there because its a UN sanctioned exercise - which we're obligated to support."

Are you sure?... The stated intentions of Australia so far have been to repeat how 'Good' and 'Just' the war is and that it must 'Go On', at great cost to Australians (they leave that last part out even as we continue to be damaged financially at home).

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/3b-and-rising-rapidly-cost-of-iraq-war/2007/03/20/1174153066804.html

$3 billion for iraq and was "rising" in 2007. This probably excludes afghanistan.

Foxy,

I'll make the question simpler for you.

If Australia is 'obliged' to send its soldiers to Afghanistan to be killed merely because it is a member of the UN, why are all other members of the UN not in Afghanistan?

Steel,

You are in no position to criticize ASIO. You have absolutely no idea about the information that they receive or the investigations that they carry out. Its pure speculation on your part to suggest they are incompetent, and being completely ignorant about defence and security matters you are hardly fit to comment anyway.

Further, ASIO is not responsible for the provision of intelligence or enforcement in Indonesia or in the US let alone Iraq or Afghanistan. Look it up. So ASIO’s “alleged” incompetence is irrelevant to the issue of Iraq or Afghanistan.

You say >>” I have read various news reports various sources for a long time and they paint a much more realistic picture. I would expect leaders to have that kind of information awareness.

I ROFLMAO, Mate that it definitely the most ignorant thing I have yet heard anyone say on this site in at least a year. You think that ASIS and DIO should be gleaning their intelligence picture from the pages of socialist weekly, or the green digest? You think because you read that rubbish that they are more realistic. That’s so funny. Greens and socialists are some of the most unrealistic people on the planet. The internet news and blogs are filled with kooks looking for an “alternative” viewpoint that better fits their worldview. You think you have better information awareness than our leaders? Mate you are just getting funnier by the minute.

You say >>” USA has much more influence over Australia's fortune and interests than we citizens could imagine”

Clearly not more than YOU could imagine. Cue spooky music.

>>” The stated intentions of Australia so far have been to repeat how 'Good' and 'Just' the war is and that it must 'Go On', at great cost to Australians”

What? The stated intention is to state that the war is good and just. Who stated that statement steel? IF the war is good and just then an economic cost is both inevitable and acceptable. You think foreign AID is free?

You think Jihad Jack is a likely to be an unbiased observer?

PaulL,

You are wasting your time with Steel; he is as thicks as two short planks, and calls anyone who disagrees with him 'morons'.

Mr Right,

I agree Steel is highly intolerant of anyone who disagrees with him/her and cannot actually debate an issue with any competence, but I owe him/her one for his/her previous mindlessly aggressive attacks.

In regards to your question I would say that there is a lot of dead wood that should be cut out of the UN if it is to be useful. Certainly there are plenty of shirkers.

At the moment NATO is in command of the effort in Afghanistan and 40 countries are there fighting. Britain, the US and Canada are all providing more troops on a per capita basis than we are. The Danes, Germans and Italians are also providing significant troop levels.

Britain, by way of comparison, has 40% of its front line infantry forces committed to operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Australia has less than 10%.

If I thought we could contain the Taliban and alQaeda without risking troops on the ground I would support it, but we can't.

Apart from the obvious ramifications to the Afghans of failure, NATO and the wests military reputation is on the line. That might seem to be an empty concept to some, however deterrence has kept the peace far more successfully than any other single factor in the history of warfare. Further, a victory for the Islamo-facists will just encourage them to continue their fight against us elsewhere

I am not as pessimistic as some regarding our chances in Afghanistan. If we can get adequate troop levels and match that with improvements in the ANA and ANP, as well as local and regional governance, then there is a real chance of success. We need an holistic approach, not just a military one.

interesting reading.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33627.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7432700.stm

Particularly interesting is Britain's movement into Helmand province where they saw battle, the likes of which had not been seen since Korea. Britain has lost 100 soldiers, but Helmand has been improving to the point where the Taliban have been driven out of the major towns. Reconstruction is fully underway and kids are back at school.

see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7344717.stm

PaulL,

It seems that Foxy cannot answer the simplest of questions relating to his assertion that Australia is obliged to have a presence in Afghanistan because of some obligation to the corrupt UN organisation. I have to draw the conclusion that, once again, he does not have a clue what he is talking about.

I wonder if he is aware that Australian troops are fighting under the command of NATO, an organisation with which Australia is not related.

As for Steel, you will do as you wish, but I think your knowledge and intelligence is totally wasted on him.

Cheers,

Dear Mr Right,

I apologise for not replying to you sooner. I wasn't able to, due to family commitments. By the way, I'm female.

The reason that I said 'We' were obligated to be in Afghanistan was due to the fact that our Government felt, being a member of the United Nations, Australia had to join forces and support the UN - to drive terrorism out of Afghanistan, and help rebuild the nation.

This was not purely a US driven exercise, as was the case in Iraq. This involved NATO allies.

You asked me - why don't all of the NATO allies support this involvement? Mr Right, this could be due to a variety of reasons.
Economic, political, religious, or involvements elsewhere. Take an intelligent guess.

However, as Kevin Rudd has said, "I've committed this Australian Government to being there for the long haul, but it's not a blank cheque - we'll continue to review it."

I'm sorry that John Pilger 'makes your hair stand on end.' I find his credentials quite impressive.

This is taken from the summation given in the
front of the book that I mentioned in my previous post, and I quote:

"John Pilger, an Australian, has twice won British journalism's highest award, that of Journalist of the Year, for his work all over the world, especially as a war correspondent. For his documentary film-making, he has won France's Reporter sans Frontieres, an American television Academy Award, an 'Emmy,' and the Richard Dimbleby Award, given by the British Academy of Film and Television Arts, for a lifetime's factual broadcasting...He lives in London."

Cheers.

Despite the progress announced at Helmand, no news in our media about up to 130 civilians being killed by US bombs last year at nearby Haydarabad, to mention just one “mistake”.

Nothing lately also about the UNHR Commissioner Louis Arbour’s report of torture in jails by Afghan and US forces. Amnesty International reported that Canada stopped transferring detainees to Afghan forces last November but now that the spotlight is off, the system has been quietly resumed.

Of the financial assistance from USAID, more than half goes to 5 US Contractors, mainly for corporate profits, wages and expenses. 40% of aid flows out of the country and the rest is significantly drained by internal corruption.

According to UN OCHA, schools and clinics that could have been renovated for $50K per building but were costing $226K and were still sub-standard.

Although there is an illusion of a legitimately elected government, the method of appointment continues to be based on the tribal system and is still marred by a ruling system built on corruption and brutality.

Karzai is supported by the most brutal of Warlords now appointed to Cabinet and Ministerial positions. For example, Gul Agha Sherzai, UN’s “Warlord of the Year”, was involved in bribery, extortion, drug-dealing and theft during the 1990’s. After the US occupation he was made Governor of Kandahar but later replaced by Asadullah Khalid who was accused last April of being personally involved in torture.

From a 94% reduction just prior to the 2001 invasion the Opium Trade has returned to it’s historical levels – up 17% in 2006 and 34% in 2007 alone, and is still accounts for up to a third of their economy.

About half of the 720 schools in the southern provinces of Helmand, Kandahar, Uruzgan and Zabul still remain closed due to violence or threats.

Refugee Women in Development say that “Now warlords fight on the side of the U.S. during the day, but at night they rape and pillage the population.”

And so on. All this seven years after "victory"?

I bet the Contractors hope it goes on forever.

Paul is an ignorant, tendentious poster. I've corrected him on numerous occassions and he can't maintain a legitimate, logical argument. eg. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1777&page=0#35440

PaulL. you begin with the assumption that ASIO can not ever be criticised or questioned, unless you are part of the organisation and privy to the details of their operations. That's absurd as you can observe the past and the effect of it's present actions. 'Authority beyond question' is a fascist/stalinist viewpoint that serves dictatorships very well. ASIO has a history of being incompetent:

"ASIO: the enemy was within"
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/asio-the-enemy-was-within/2008/05/27/1211654031664.html
I can provide other links to conclusions, but for present times if i need to.

PaulL's next blunder is his ad hominem attack on "green and socialist" news sites and that I must read them.
1. It's an exceptionally partisan comment.
2. A gross assumption.
3. It's wrong.
4. It's an ad hominem fallacy.
5. It's a sickness of his. He can't get enough of bashing the left, but it's proof at least of his bias and idiocy.
6. Guess what PaulL? All these supposed leftists were CORRECT about the WMD and all the other things that sites you might identify with no doubt denied on a regular basis. Your presumption of attack and derision is seriously problematic for you.

Paul>"Mate that it definitely the most ignorant thing I have yet heard anyone say on this site in at least a year. "

What you are finding hilarious is something you can't attribute to my statement. I never said they should take their primary information from these sources. But there is certainly information out there that shows how ignorant and incompetent they have been throughout the ongoing wars. Some of this information existed before these wars took place.

The Prime Minister is advised directly by ASIO and various other agencies. They got it wrong remember? No WMD, no Iraqi connection to 9.11. For slightly different reasons... Now either they were incompetent, or it was a conspiracy to go to war, or both. There is absolutely no other explanation for the grievous errors.

Dear Steel,

Thank you for this thread - and for pointing out the horrors of war, in a country that has a tribal culture - where nothing is going to change - and proping up corrupt Governments is not going to achieve anything worthwhile for the country.
Thanks to Rache as well.

'The Age' newspaper of April 2, 2008 had an Editorial Opinion entitled,
'PM's world tour, and obligations to neighbours.' I'd like to quote
you some of it:

"The Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, this week arrives in Bucharest to attend a NATO summit at which member nations, other countries and institutions such as the World Bank, will debate the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan. Mr Rudd and his Defence Minister, Joel Fitzgibbon, are taking to the summit a commitment that Australia is in Afghanistan for the long-term. Yet this pledge carries a caveat: while Australia might have 1000 troops in the country as part of the International Security Assistance Force of almost 50,000, it will not increase its troop strength unless similar vows, and a willingness to shoulder more of the responsibility for fighting the Taliban, are forthcoming from other European nations..."

Susan Biddle of the 'Washington Post,' quotes the US Defence Secretary Robert M. Gates as well as the top US Commander of NATO forces in Afghanistan as, "arguing that the alliance's shortcomings are of some member states being unwilling to risk combat casualties..." This is apparently undermining NATO'S
future and the Afghan war.

It may be time for our PM to re-examine the situation - and see where our commitments should actually lie.

Thanks Foxy. So it's a long term presence for Rudd? In my opinion, that is very unhealthy for the people there, to live under occupation for a quarter of their lives being bombed on a daily or weekly basis. Also Australians throwing money into the fire on military hardware and fuel costs doesn't bode well for anyone but those profitting from it here in Australia. The money could go to much better ends here, rather than idealistic and hypocritical wars.

Foxy,

I did not mention NATO, I was following up your UN-obligation comment.

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization has nothing to do with the UN and nothing to do with Australia – ‘North Atlantic’ is the clue.

Australia is overstretched, so your excuses for the absence of other UN members – which alleviates their obligation, apparently – don’t’ measure up.

I’m sure you find John Pilger impressive and believe what he says. Does he approve of Australia’s involvement in Afghanistan? He seems not to agree with anything Australia does.

I think Mr. Pilger is an embarrassment to Australia and a quite awful man. That’s life; we don’t all agree with each other. I have read his books in the past, but I simply do not agree with his politics.

I don’t know why you quoted the book ‘blurb’; that doesn’t make him right or wrong.

I hope your family problems are squared away, and I note that you are female.

Thanks for the response.

Dear Mr Right,

You may be interested in reading the entire editorial opinion given by 'The Age' newspaper, April 2, 2008:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/editorial/pms-world-tour-and-obligations-to-nei...

Perhaps then you will understand the point that I was trying to make.

As for John Pilger, I gave you the summation of his credentials because I thought that perhaps you were not aware of them. Obviously you are, and of course you're entitled to your opinion

Steel,

I had a great laugh reading your posts. I must say that to be called tendentious by someone who, without fail, takes the socialist/PC approach to every issue, was particularly amusing. The ignorant part I’ll take on the chin for arguing with you in the first place.

For starters, I never said “ASIO can not ever be criticised or questioned, unless you are part of the organisation AND privy to the details of their operations.”

Your reference to “the enemy within”, relates to issues more than 30 years, up to 60 years, ago. They aren’t evidence of any incapacity now. And funnily enough, ASIO don’t do PR, and when they have a success they don’t discuss whether they are going to let Steel from OLO in on the secret. So in essence, you are in no position AT ALL, to judge ASIO.

The intelligence arms of the Australian gov’t include, ASIS, the ONA, DIO, DSD, DIGO and ASIO. Unless you know who it was that actually gathered the intelligence/made the assessment originally how can you blame ASIO? You don’t have a clue what ASIO’s advice to gov’t was. It is just as likely the ONA green lighted the intelligence on WMD’s. It’s even possible that the Gov’t ignored advice from intelligence completely, do you know?

Although you clearly misunderstand this, ASIO are the DOMESTIC spy organization responsible for security/intelligence INSIDE Australia. The WMD information would originally have come from the US, or Britain; not ASIO, who do not collect overseas intelligence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Security_Intelligence_Organisation
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/10/27/1035683305213.html

>>” I have read various news reports various sources … and they paint a much more realistic picture. I would expect leaders to have that kind of information awareness.”

1. Please do tell me what “non-mainstream” NEWS you are talking about?
2. It is beyond belief that you would suggest you have superior “information awareness” because you read the “non-mainstream” news. This is so ridiculous I’m still ROFLMAO.
3. I didn’t attack greens/socialists specifically I also included blogs and internet news sites. Is your non-mainstream NEWS not covered by one of these four areas?

TBC,

I’m assuming you are referring to the ICH article.

In this case, you respond to my discussion with someone else and take issue with one of the 10 points I make in the post. You then post a rebuttal two days later to that one point, which I must say I’m only reading for the first time today, and then have the gall to suggest that you corrected me. You absolute @rse.

But let me deal with the substance of your laughable”allegation”.

I said “Iran has involved itself directly in the insurgency in Iraq by providing training and weapons to Shiite terrorists."

Of the 1972 foreigners arrested as insurgents between May 2005 and May 2006, 1577 or 80% were from Iran. See “The Iran Threat” Alireza Jafarzadeh. This book is adapted as an authoritative textbook by major universities such as Georgetown University. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alireza_Jafarzadeh

For information regarding Iran’s involvement in Iraq,
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/11/world/middleeast/11cnd-weapons.html
http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1692347&page=1
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/23/AR2006032301658.html
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2008/05/whats-behind-iraq-iran-weapons.html
http://www.iranfocus.com/en/iraq/iran-spends-2.5b-on-activities-in-iraq-exiles-say.html

But in particular read “Eight Lives Down” for a brilliant account of a British counter-terrorist bomb disposal expert and his experiences with Iranian sourced weaponry and knowhow. http://www.randomhouse.com.au/Books/Default.aspx?Page=Book&ID=9780593058657

In rebuttal you provided a quote for an article on ICH,

The article refers to one single weapons find by the Iraqi Army. The article itself is a press release from the Campaign against Military Intervention in Iran. CASMII is a campaign organization with the purpose of opposing sanctions, foreign state interference and military intervention in Iran. CASMII was formed by a group of Iranian academics. Sounds like an independent organization?? ??

In all likelihood, however, I could place an 82mm mortar shell, with “Made in Iran” stamped on it, under your nose and you wouldn’t believe it. And Iran isn’t so stupid that they are trying to advertise to the world that they are providing the insurgents with weapons and money. They also provide training and knowhow from IRGC, Qods Force and their Hezbollah proxies.

So, if you don’t mind, could you please show me where/how you corrected me? Don’t tell me, you’re going to change the subject again!! !!

I can understand how the left leaning swill humpers like to denigrate the USA and NATO at every opportunity.

Lets face it, USA, most successful country in the world, the one which came to Europe’s aid in WWI, WWII and held the line against the Stalinists for 40 years until the Evil Empire collapsed into the stink of its own effluent.

NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation was the principle bulwark of combined defence against Communist expansionist dreams in Europe post WWII and currently the club which the now liberated old Soviet satellites like Poland, Hungary etc. are queuing up to join.

Without USA and NATO, the Red Army would have kept walking west from Hungary after they marched in against the uprising in 1956.

We could ask too what is the difference between NATO and UN
Well, NATO has goals and objectives, it achieves things, it is an association of merit, which gives those countries who are members something back for their buck.

The UN does nothing, except offer a forum to the incompetent from where they vilify the able nations of the world.

I wonder how many of the self righteous and critical nations of USA/NATO would actually be able to pay for their accommodation bills if it were not for the financial income derived from US charity and aid?

As for Piliger, he is long past his use-bye date but being a little loopey is quite fashionable in some circles.

Col Rouge,

>>"I wonder how many of the self righteous and critical nations of USA/NATO would actually be able to pay for their accommodation bills if it were not for the financial income derived from US charity and aid?"

You left out the fact that the left leaning, "wall to wall welfare" states of Europe, that many of the soft-lefties love, were able to pay for their much praised social programs because the US/NATO covered for their defence requirements during the cold war, thus freeing up billions of dollars.

PaulL.>"I must say that to be called tendentious by someone who, without fail, takes the socialist/PC approach to every issue"

here you go again...flat out baldness... let me repeat some of your own recent words:

PaulL.>"It truly does take a village to raise a child."
PaulL.>"however we need to balance this with the more important responsibility of protecting children."
PaulL>"...is more important to protect ...the child."

PaulL>"We also need ANZAC day to let those who have stood tall in our nations’ service know that we remember and value their sacrifice, that they are part of us and have done nothing wrong"

PaulL>"the general community understands that the soldiers who fight Australias wars are us. They are not some obscure group, they are our fathers, brothers, sons and now, mothers daughters and sisters."

Socialist? Check.
PC? Check.

Your self delusion never ends. Your endless criticism of the "left" is so partisan it's sickening but i think in your case it is some kind of self-affirmation, which is sad.

paulL>"So in essence, you are in no position AT ALL, to judge ASIO."

You reassert this in even bolder terms. Well sad to make you look like a fool (yet again):

Besides ignoring JRoche's three warnings and offers of information:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22863386-28737,00.html

French 'really annoyed' at Australian blunders in Brigitte case
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/11/1076388419725.html

ASIO mole leaked secrets for 15 years: report
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/11/01/1099262774657.html

ASIO conduct was grossly improper: judge
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/11/12/1194766590209.html

ASIO accused of 'doctoring' Habib notes
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22862646-2,00.html

AFP, ASIO give public a drip feed
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/05/28/11692_editorial-news.html

Enemy may have penetrated ASIO: Justice Robert Hope report
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23768232-5001561,00.html

"It is extraordinary that it should be necessary for me to make this point. What I am really saying is that ASIO should act like a real intelligence agency.''-Justice Hope

So Iranians were found in Iraq? That's little more than coincidence nor substantial. Were they agents of Iran or private citizens defending their 'brothers'? Devout Christian citizens would leap to the defence of a neighbouring Christian nation in such a situation.

Now how many CIA government *AGENTS* do you think are in Iraq and various other countries? For example, take the 1953 overthrow of the Democratic government of Iran ...by the USA, to be replaced with a dictator. Whining about Iran is delusional, since they have more reason to be in the country than one from a different continent.

1-3.These are older than the link I provided and is merely an example of the propaganda, revealed as such by the report.
4.Now a recent one. But one that is extremely disingenuous, since it's about one. single. rocket. There is cause for great suspicion in the source of the claim to. It could easily (and plausibly) have been trafficked or fabricated as a propaganda weapon.
5.This one's funny...the source:"the exiled opposition National Council for Resistance in Iran said" Sounds like a 'Curveball' type situation. These groups are often supported by foreign 'governments' with "aid money".

To show how ridiculous your position is, look how many weapons the USA has mysteriously lost to the streets of Iraq to be used by all who have cause (from my recent link): "In contrast, the Pentagon in August 2007 admitted that it had lost track of a third of the weapons distributed to the Iraqi security forces in 2004/2005. The 190,000 assault rifles and pistols roam free in Iraqi streets today."

In short you've posted a list of propaganda that was already revealed to be anomolous by my very recent link.

Feds Probe Blackwater Weapons Smuggling
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/09/21/national/w174703D61.DTL

http://zenhuber.blogspot.com/2007/02/iran-nyt-repeats-history-wapo-rewrites.html

British Find No Evidence Of Arms Traffic From Iran
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/03/AR2006100301577_pf.html

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/BigBusiness.asp#Itdoesnotseemtomatterwhoarmsaresoldto
"the “War on Terror” has seen the U.S. selling weapons or training to almost 90% of the countries it has identified as harboring terrorists"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/migrationtemp/1532554/US-is-only-country-to-oppose-UN-arms-trade-treaty.html
"America is the only country to have voted against a proposed United Nations treaty aimed at controlling international arms sales."

Steel,

>>”You reassert this in even bolder terms. Well sad to make you look like a fool (yet again):”

I have to say that I really do admire a person who can, upon being knocked down for the umpteenth time, get up and still claim to have won. It’s most enterprising of you steel, Well done old chap, never let reality bog you down I say.

In reference to the quotes of mine, which you have dredged up after what must have been a long days perusal, I have a couple of things to say.

1) It gives me great amusement to imagine you trawling through my posts. I can’t say I’ll be returning the compliment.
2) If, and this is a big if, you are suggesting you have provided evidence that I have taken a socialist/PC line on anything, this is just proving my point that I am pragmatic and do not tow the party line as you obviously do.

I’ll deal with your newspaper articles one at a time. I must note at this time however you’re judgement of ASIO relies upon reportage of the mainstream newspapers (Those playthings of the ruling classes). What is it that makes you feel you can trust them on THIS incident, but requires you to resort to the "non-mainstream" media for your "superior information awareness", otherwise??

Jack Roche, An admitted terrorist is evidence of NOTHING. He is hopelessly compromised.

The ASIO mole link we have already covered, so either you are incapable of reading the pieces you offer, or your padding out the list, which is it?

Regarding the medical student, I see the problem residing with the judge and the pathetic milquetoasts who insist upon kid glove treatment of terrorist suspects.

Ditto the next.

ASIO drip feed the public? WTF, ASIO is a spy organisation, it’s not their job to be educating the public.

Finally, you AGAIN raise reference to the issue of Soviet penetration of ASIO 40 years ago. We have dealt with this already above. It seems you really are either completely ignorant or you are being mendacious.

TBC

cont,
>>” So Iranians were found in Iraq? That's little more than coincidence nor substantial. …Whining about Iran is delusional, since they have more reason to be in the country than one from a different continent.”

I see. So you now admit that Iran is meddling in the affairs of Iraq, after having been asked a number of times by the elected Iraqi gov’t not to do so. Didn’t take much for you to change your tune on that one.

>>” In short you've posted a list of propaganda that was already revealed to be anomolous by my very recent link.

Your overweening attitude with respect to your own posts is really most amusing. For starters, your belief that this one article, (which in fact does not contain what you assert), negates ALL contention that Iran is involved in the insurgency in Iraq, is quite clearly fanciful in the extreme

This very recent link, as you seem not to know it, was a press release from CASMII, who are Iranian in origin (No likelihood THEY are funded by the mullahs, surely?) It referred to ONE single incident, when Iraqi Army forces claimed a particular explosive was Iranian in origin. This is categorically NOT evidence that Iran is NOT involved in the insurgency in Iraq. That you cannot see this is evidence of your intention to only see what you already believe.

Your scattergun approach to debate and rebuttal is on display again today. Of what relevance to the question of whether Iran is involved in Iraq, is missing US weapons?? It has NONE at all and it is further evidence of your inability to concentrate upon a single topic.

So, this article http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/07/2268129.htm
postdates your press release, I wonder whether you have the gall to claim it (The infamous ICH article) negates the above?

Or this http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19907&Itemid=128

Finally I suggest you read “Eight Lives Down” which is the wartime journal of a counter insurgent bomb disposal officer. He provides clear evidence of Iranian involvement in the insurgency in Iraq, particularly in the area of bombmaking materials and know-how.

I only spent about 5 minutes finding your comments.

It's funny how you are a socialist and PC, but now see that as "pragmatic". That makes all your prior rants against the "soft left" hilarious.

Iran may be involved in Iraq (and as shown not to the extent made out to be in propaganda). But...so is the USA...in a much, much bigger way. Not only that the USA trades with nations that harbour terrorists and spread nuclear to nations that haven't signed the NPT. There are many other facets of involvement also.

Jack Roche turned himself in. That shows a great degree of honesty. Your attack on him is nothing more than an ad hominem.

I love how you dismiss the importance of the law in the case of ASIO. That's an authoritarian position.